Talk:Carnedd Llewelyn

Llewelyn or Llywelyn?

• Bore Dda Stemonitis

I see that you have reversed the spelling of Carnedd Llywelyn to Carnedd Llewelyn on the page with that name. Whats in a name? Here in Eryri, where I live, names carry a great significance and though our bards take liberties with words and make puns in a time honoured and highly complex way, we try to get the spelling of names correct whenever we can. Carnedd Llywelyn has been incorrectly entered on modern OS maps as Carnedd Llewelyn, and until the O.S. reprint, unfortunately that is the way that it appears. LLEW means Lion in English. LLYW means Leader. Tyysog Llywelyn, Prince of Wales (killed 11 December 1282)is remembered among his people as 'Ein Llyw Olaf', Our Last Leader. He lived nearby at Garth Celyn, at the entrance to the Aber valley. His name was Llywelyn ap Gruffudd, and the mountain, very significantly, is named in his honour, to his memory. Here in the heart of Welsh Wales the landscape keeps faith with memory.

Parc Cenedlaethol Eryri, Snowdonia National Park Authority, use the correct spelling, Carnedd Llywelyn (see their website). The Royal Commission on Ancient Monuments, Wales use Carnedd Llywelyn (see 'Caernarvonshire Vol. 1, East, page151, entry 552, Carnedd Llywelyn. Enwau Eryri, Iwan Arfon Jones (ISBN: 0 86243 374 6) uses Carnedd Llywelyn The Mountains of Wales, Ioan Bowen Rees (ISBN 0-7083-1163-6) uses Carnedd Llywelyn The name is spelt correctly in countless numbers of books and articles written by local people, as it is in documents in UCNW, Bangor, Archives and elsewhere.CatlinJ 21:23, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

So where do we go from here? By far the majority of people who use Wikipedia will not have an OS map. Many people, interested in the mountains of Snowdonia, for what ever reason, do know of Snowdonia National Park and might check out the Park's website. A title to the Wikipedia page with both spellings, might resolve the issue for the present. My own preference would be to retitle the page Carnedd Llywelyn, and have a link to the alternative spelling. However, all the text on the page surely must contain own our local and recognised spelling of the name. BrynLlywelyn 11:42, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

By all means make "Carnedd Llywelyn" redirect to here, and perhaps mention the alternative in an etymology section, but beyond that, please don't do anything to this article. The modern spelling as used in all resources that I have to hand — maps, books, pictures, postcards, websites, etc. — is Llewelyn. Please do not continue to change it without raising a Move Request; but if you do, unless you have decent, modern, English language references pertaining to the mountain, I shall probably object. I prepared to believe that Llywelyn might make more etymological sense, but it isn't the commonly-used, modern spelling in English. — ras52 23:30, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Snowdonia National Park Authority (see their website and material), calls it Carnedd Llywelyn, as do people who live in this part of Wales, as I do. 'Carnedd' and 'Llywelyn' are both Welsh words. If you want to translate these into English, it would be 'Llywelyn's Cairn', and there is no 'English language reference' to it by that name, so I do not follow your line of thinking. The mountain does not have an English name, neither do the majority of others in the area. They have retained their original Welsh names. Local scholars, including Sir Ifor Williams, Ioan Bowen Rees, Dafydd Glyn Jones all use 'Carnedd Llywelyn'. The Royal Commission on Ancient Monuments, Wales, uses 'Carnedd Llywelyn'. Walkers such as expert Colin Adams, who has written, 'The Mountain Walker's guide to Wales', use 'Carnedd Llywelyn' and so forth. The mountain is named in honour of a great Welshman, Llywelyn ap Gruffudd, ein Llyw Olaf 'Our last Leader'. Not llew 'lion'. BrynLlywelyn 01:04, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say 'Carnedd' and 'Llywelyn' weren't Welsh words; clearly they are. However this is the English language Wikipedia, and all of the English language sources I have to hand (OS maps; various walking books: Poucher, Nuttalls, TACit tables (Adam's book, which I don't have, seems to be in a minority here); and a handful of post cards) all spell the mountain 'Carnedd Llewelyn'. Certainly in English language texts, that is the standard spelling — and if you don't believe be, try Googling them: '"Carnedd Llewelyn"': 10,200; '"Carnedd Llywelyn"': 521. There really doesn't seem any doubt as to the prefered spelling, when used in English. Just because it is named after Llywelyn ap Gruffudd doesn't mean that Llywelyn is the modern spelling of the mountain — spellings get corrupted over time, whether English or Welsh. — ras52 01:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

The mountain has a name; Carnedd Llywelyn. This is the name by which the mountain has been known for at least six hundred years (see Rhys Goch Eryri's poem of c. 1400 as just one of countless examples) in Snowdonia. The fact that the O.S. made a spelling error (which, we believe will be corrected in due course) does not mean that we have to continue that mistake. Surely Wikipedia is about getting facts as accurate as we can for the benefit of all. That is how we progress.

Of course spellings in any language get corrupted over time especially when people try to write down the word that they think that they are hearing. And Welsh is a highly complex language.

When Edward Longshanks invaded Snowdonia in 1282-3, his scribes, preparing Extents, made an attempt to write the Welsh names down in Latin. These names were then converted into Norman French, and then eventually into English. I have, for example, noted an incredible 72 different spellings for the place name 'Beaumaris'.

Snowdonia National Park Authority,in whose care the mountain is held in trust, uses the correct spelling 'Llywelyn', not the corrupted one; Gwynedd C.C. uses 'Llywelyn'; the University of Wales, Bangor, uses 'Llywelyn', the local parish council uses 'Llywelyn', the Ancient Monuments Board uses 'Llywelyn', scholars who have prepared the English language version of the Welsh dictionary use 'Llywelyn'. And so on.

I suggested that the Wikipedia page 'Carnedd Llewelyn', which is for the benefit of all, should in fairness include both names. Language and spelling really do matter, especially when you try to turn a 'Leader' into a growling cat. Do you have any reasonable objections to that?From a chilly December morning in a very windswept Snowdonia, greetings. BrynLlywelyn 10:00, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

May I add my tuppence worth? To my mind it should be spelt Llywelyn. After all, that was his name, and that is therefore the correct name for the mountain. Are we really into perpetuating errors? However, both names are sufficiently commonly used that whichever is adopted as the title for the page, reference should be made to the other spelling. I see that "Llywelyn" already redirects to "Llewelyn". To be honest, when adding the cat "Geography of Conwy" the other day, I was quite surprised to see that it was spelt "EW" here! Hogyn Lleol 11:21, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

An important point to remember: Wikipedia does not necessarily follow what is academically correct, but rather that which is in common usage by reputable sources (WP:NC(CN): "use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things"). This may be seen as either a strength or a weakness. Thus, in order to get the article changed, you would need to demonstrate not that "Llywelyn" is more correct (I think everyone here is prepared to accept that), but that it is the predominant spelling used by other sources. As mentioned before, the Ordnance Survey is one such source that tends to be seen as reliable; the National Park Authority is another. If Ras52's survey of the available literature is representative, then the spelling "Llewelyn", despite being historically incorrect, is the title that Wikipedia must use. I know it can be frustrating, but Wikipedia does not value our personal learning so much as the learning evident in the quoted sources. Every so often, the Ordnance Survey do change their collective mind about spellings, and it may be worth your while to petition them to change. They may be persuaded that a correct but rare name is better than an incorrect but commonly used one; the Wikipedia community almost certainly will not. --Stemonitis 16:29, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I fully accept the point about common usage, rather than what is, or might be, academically correct.

Carnedd Llywelyn is in Eryri, Snowdonia, north Wales. The name of the mountain has not been translated into English, and there is no English replacement word; it remains in its local Welsh form, as it has for centuries, Carnedd Llywelyn. To the English ear, there is little difference in the sound, 'Llywelyn' and 'Llewelyn' (that is probably how this error occurred). But to the Welsh ear, there is a very subtle difference, and a very important one. It enables us to change the meaning of a word entirely, in a way that none Welsh speakers might not at first understand. Language, and the way in which we use it, is something that we treasure, and that fact, though scorn can be poured upon it, is something that surely must be respected. I am aware that a number of guide books written in the English language specifically for walkers and climbers do repeat the incorrect spelling 'Llewelyn'. But a great many more also use the correct form 'Llywelyn'. (The same applies to place names such as 'Conway' and 'Conwy'). And we could bat and ball this line of debate endlessly. Common usage in this area, where I live, is solidly 'Llywelyn'. I have never heard it pronounced any other way by local people. Snowdonia National Park Authority,in whose care the mountain is held in trust, uses the correct spelling 'Llywelyn', not the corrupted one; Gwynedd C.C. uses 'Llywelyn'; the University of Wales, Bangor, uses 'Llywelyn', the local parish council uses 'Llywelyn', the Ancient Monuments Board uses 'Llywelyn', scholars who have prepared the English language version of the Welsh dictionary use 'Llywelyn'. If we asked the first Minister of Wales, Rhodri Morgan (whose family have local connections), he would say 'Llywelyn'; Betty Williams, the local MP, would say Llywelyn; Huw Edwards, BBC newscaster would say 'Llywelyn' and so forth. The boundary line between Gwynedd and Conwy goes through Carnedd Llywelyn and Carnedd Dafydd. This precise boundary was drawn up on the instructions of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd's grandfather, Llywelyn ab Iorwerth (Llywelyn Fawr / the Great), when he gave the territory (that now forms the county of Conwy) to the Cistercian monks so that they could build a monastery and have grazing for their sheep in the mountains. That boundary line, for which documentary evidence exists, was marked by landscape features that are still clearly visible today, and it has survived for 800 years. If words start to become changed, for whatever reason, they take on different meaning. In some cases that might or might not matter. But in this particular case it really does. The mountain was named centuries ago, to honour the memory of the first Prince of Wales, the 'Llyw' Leader of Wales, by his own people. That name must remain as it was intended, because that is the right and proper thing to do. BrynLlywelyn 11:52, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

To reiterate, what matters is not what is "right and proper" but what reputable sources do. You have named some that follow the "Llyw-" spelling, but there are others that use the other spelling. Note that the Google test is likely to come into play in a requested move, and "Carnedd Llywelyn" -Wikipedia gets only 352 hits while "Carnedd Llewelyn" -Wikipedia gets 983, i.e. nearly ¾ of websites use the "Llew-" spelling. You might have a case, if your sources are more reliable than a Google test (which almost anything is) and if they really represent the majority (which I'm less sure about). By all means make such a request, but remember to base your arguments on the usage in reputable sources, and not on history, correctness, usage in Welsh, or the importance of the distinction, none of which is relevant to the article naming issue. --Stemonitis 12:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree. I'm surprised to see that Carnedd Llywelyn is not given as an alternative spelling in the first line of the article, but I feel that if the majority of reputable English-language sources (I would stress the "if" here) have it as Llewelyn, then that should probably be the spelling used in the title. I think the issue of Cadair versus Cader Idris is comparable. Being local to the area, I would write Cader Idris, but I don't hold the spelling Cadair to be more or less correct, and I'm not against having that form in the title of the article. Spellings change depending on who uses them. Are we sure in any case that Llywelyn himself always spelt his name with a -y? Writers in that period - and later - tended to be extraordinarily inconsistent by our standards - and this is as true of Welsh as of English. It may be that association with the epithet "ein llyw olaf" influenced later writers to fix on that spelling. I don't know. However, just as I spell the Greek hero's name Achilles and pronounce Cicero with /s/ in English, I'd be content to accept the dominant English spelling here. garik 12:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I have included the spelling Carnedd Llywelyn in the first line of the article, and I hope that this time it is allowed to remain.

There are several ways in which King Edward I's Norman French scribes attempted to write down Llywelyn's name in Latin. The usual form started with Lh...., then they used their imagination.

The way in which we know how he and his people pronounced his name was from the Welsh bards of the period, who made word play on Llywelyn and Llyw. See Llywelyn y Beirdd, Professor J. E. Caerwyn Williams. BrynLlywelyn 13:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "allowed to remain". I did not remove it, and I regret that I didn't include it when I first wrote the article nearly two years ago. (In fact, I did originally write it as "Carnedd Llywelyn", but was surprised to find that the OS map spelt it "Carnedd Llewelyn", which swayed me to use a different spelling at the last minute.) The alternative spelling should of course be mentioned at the beginning. I think there is even scope for dispassionate discussion of the different spellings in the article. I have re-worded your addition slightly, because I do not believe that it is only locally that the "Llywelyn" spelling is used (and we would need to accumulate a lot of examples before such a pattern became clear, and might then be original research), but that is all. --Stemonitis 13:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I doubt very much that the "Llywelyn" spelling is only used locally. Now, I would restress the "if" of my previous comment. I note that while OS have "Llewelyn", the Collins Road Atlas 2006 has "Llywelyn". As it seems reasonable to rely on reputable English-language sources for this article (as an indicator of the more common form in English), maybe it would be helpful to list such sources here and then make a decision based on how they seem to be weighted? May I suggest that, should the sources turn out to be fairly equally weighted in both directions, we go for Carnedd Llywelyn as the primary form, since this is preferred by the National Park authority itself and makes the link with Llywelyn a modicum more transparent? garik 14:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure how "fairly evenly weighted" is calculable, particularly since some sources are more weighty than others, but the idea is a good one. I've started a pair of lists below (ordered purely alphabetically, I assure you). Incidentally, I've just noticed that the NPA's map uses the "Llewelyn" spelling, although the list states "Llywelyn", but I don't think that's important. --Stemonitis 14:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Nor do I. They probably just use OS - I know Gwynedd Council does. In fact, I imagine all UK councils do, along with other public bodies. We should be careful not to list extra maps here that are OS-based. And yes, I agree it may be hard to calculate how equal the weighting is, but hopefully some sort of trend (or absence of one) will become clear. We'll see. garik 15:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Carnedd Llywelyn is the correct spelling and should be used here. My own family name is Llewellyn, and I have studied the name well. There is no doubt that the people there refer to the Prince Llywelyn, not to any Lion-Likenss of the mountain. Please, let us correct this back to the Carnedd Llywellyn name that is known locally and in Gwynedd. Drachenfyre 16:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

But the issue is not the preferred spelling of the Prince's name; the question is which is the more common spelling in English for the mountain. Arguments based on connections with llyw and llew are in any case misleading. The most convincing arguments I've heard for the etymology of the name derive it from Lugubelenus, composed of the names of the Celtic gods Lug and Belenus (the Welsh counterparts in later stories are Lleu Llaw Gyffes and Beli Mawr). This way of forming proper names out of two elements is extremely common in Indo-European languages. This account also neatly explains the whole name, rather than just the first element of it. In explanations based on the first element being llyw "leader" (or even llew "lion") -elyn remains unexplained (at least I've never seen an etymology that accounts for it). This is something of a tangent, I realise; the point is that whatever the etymology, to refer to the mountain as "Carnedd Llewelyn" does not imply any connection with lions; it merely uses a variant spelling of the name Llywelyn. After all, when I write in Welsh, I refer to Kings Harri and Siarl rather than Henry and Charles. garik 17:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Until we reach an agreement to do otherwise, can we please leave the spelling consistently as Llewelyn throughout the article — that includes in the phrase the name Carnedd Llewelyn features in Welsh poetry and literature. Changing without first reaching consensus here is just counter-productive; and it's clear that there are more people willing to revert to Llewelyn than to Llywelyn, and by the three reverts rule that'll mean it stays as Llewelyn. So let's avoid an edit war, and until a consensus is reached, please leave it as Llewelyn. — ras52 23:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I reverted that change before reading your last comment, Ras52, sorry, but I think this is one instance where the "Llywelyn" spelling is acceptable, regardless of the title of the article. If it is that name that appears in the poetry, then it would be misleading to say that "Llewelyn" appears there. All other instances, though, should all be spelt the same and match the title. --Stemonitis 08:25, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Sources using Carnedd Llewelyn

• Ordnance Survey
• TACiT Tables: the Hewitts and Marilyns of Wales ISBN 0-9522680-6-X
• Nuttall, John & Anne. The Mountains of England and Wales. ISBN 1-85284-304-7
• AA Road Atlas, 2003. ISBN 0-7495-3432-0
• Bearhop, Derek A. Munro's Tables. ISBN 0-907521-53-3
• Mountain Chart of England & Wales. Harveys. ISBN 1-85137-233-4
• Clayton, Roy and Turnbull, Ronald. The Welsh Three Thousand Foot Challenges: A Guide For Walkers and Hill Runners. ISBN 0-9515996-6-6
• Google Earth
• SummitPost.org
• Irvine Butterfield, The High Mountains of Britain and Ireland (1986)
• Steve Ashton, Scrambles in Snowdonia (1992 ed., first published 1980)

Sources using Carnedd Llywelyn

• Although the Ordnance Survey currently uses "Llewelyn", the 1" O.S. Snowdon map published in 1962 shows "Llywelyn"
• Collins Road Atlas 2006. London: Collins. ISBN 0-00-719992-9
• Snowdonia National Park Authority
• Streetmap.co.uk (at scales above 1:50 000)
• RAC Road Atlas 2005. London. ISBN 0-00-770756-8
• The Summits of Snowdonia by Terry Marsh (1984)
• The Mountain Walker's Guide to Wales by Colin Adams (1990)
• Place-names in the 3000ft Mountains of Wales by Terry Batt (1994)
• Enwau Eryri by Iwan Arfon Jones (1998)
• Best Walks in North Wales by Richard Sale (1988)
• Mountain Tables by Michael Dewey (1995)
• The Welsh Peaks by WA Poucher (1962)
• The Mountains of Wales, an anthology in verse and prose compiled by Ioan Bowen Rees (1992)
• The Lakes of Eryri by Geraint Roberts (1995)
• Hill Walking in Snowdonia by EG Rowland (1951, revised 1975)
• I'r Mynydd 'The gathering of Braich', Sir Ifor Williams (1959, translated 1992).
• Encyclopedia Britannica (1911) on-line
• The Mountains of Wales[:] A walker's guide to the 600-metre summits, by Terry Marsh. London: Hodder & Stoughton (1981)

Comments on the sources

I can't let this one go by without comment: Google Earth is about the least reliable thing in the world when it comes to place-names. Yes, it's got "Carnedd Llewelyn", and that can't just be coincidence, but it also has "Elidyr-fawr", "Filiast", "Moel Sesiog" and, best of all, "Caderddris"! I'm almost tempted to count Google Earth's use of "Carnedd Lewelyn" as evidence that that spelling must be wrong. --Stemonitis 18:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

While I'm moidering, and for comedy purposes only, I'll point out Peakware's page on the mountain (a site which must be discounted for being apparently based on our page). Woe betide anyone who dares to climb in March (presumably from "Llanberies" to see the "superp" views)! --Stemonitis 18:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

When listing these book sources, it would be best if you also listed their publisher and date of publication so we can determin if there is a trend by date as well. Drachenfyre 22:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The on-line 1911 Britannica isn't much use either — its entry on Wales uses Llywelyn for the mountain, but consistently spells Llywelyn ab Iorwerth (Llywelyn the Great) as Llewelyn ap Iorwerth. To me, that suggests that a typo in Britannica is at least as likely as an intention use of the Llywelyn spelling. The fact that the following following sentence mis-spells Aran Fawddwy as Aran-fawddy adds credence to this suggestion. — ras52 23:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

It's interesting that the 1962 1" OS map has Llywelyn; the New Popular Edition, published sometime in 40s / 50s, has Llewelyn, as does the Popular (4th) Edition (1922) and the 1890s edition. But I'm not sure how relevant these are — at this time anglicizing foreign-looking spellings was de rigueur and I can point to plenty of books published in the early / mid 20th century that refer to Llewelyn [sic] the Great, etc., maybe even to the extent that you could argue Llewelyn was the more usual spelling in non-scholarly English-language texts of this period. But none of this is particularly relevant as we're not interested in what was the common spelling, but what currently is. — ras52 11:39, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Summary

I think we've accumulated enough references to get a better picture of the usages of the two spellings. Can I try to summarise the main points?

• Etymologically and culturally speaking, Llywelyn is the correct spelling.
• The Ordnance Survey, generally perceived as the single most reliable source on common spelling, almost exclusively uses the spelling Llewelyn; amongst the other mapping companies, usage is more-or-less evenly split.
• Walking guides, etc., use both spellings with perhaps a few trends:
  • Guides covering a large area of the country are more likely to favour Llewelyn, probably by reference to the OS and due to the authors not having detailed local cultural knowledge;
  • Guides specific to Wales, or just Snowdonia, are more likely to favour Llywelyn, especially when written by a Welsh autthor.
• Local usage appears to predominately favour Llywelyn.
• It seems that there may have have been a trend for regarding Llewelyn as an anglicisation of Llywelyn.

I think this also explains why the various contributors have disparate experiences with the spellings. The books the I own are more usually hill lists and quite general purpose walking guides, and most of my maps are OS; it's therefore not surprising that I've rarely encountered Llywelyn. Those contributors whose interests are more local and/or cultural, are likely to have a different collection of books or their bookshelves, and they've probably encountered Llywelyn rather more. — ras52 13:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

This may or may not help us decide what to call the article, but I've drafted a paragraph that attempts to present the above in a NPOV and verifiable way. Improvements are welcome; it's hard not to stray into the realms of original research with this kind of debate. Whatever the article title, I think the two names should both be bolded in the opening sentence so as to give the alternative form something approaching equal weight. --Blisco 21:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, Blisco. That looks good. — ras52 02:38, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

* Just like to add - A Welsh Classical Dictionary, Peter C. Bartrum (The National Library of Wales, 1993, ISBN: 0-907158-73-0). Under the entry LLEWELYN, Professor Bartrum writes 'See LLYWELYN', and all the entries are under that spelling of the name. I think that this is the way that the entry for Carnedd Llywelyn should be, and include both names on the page.

That spelling is local usage, and academically correct. CatlinJ 23:58, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Last week, I queried this spelling with the Welsh Language Board. I've just received the following reply.

Many thanks for your e-mail last week. The correct spelling for the historical figure referred to would be Llywelyn, however, as a place name, irrespective of accuracy, Llewelyn has been used quite a lot.

You would need to check all early versions, including the original OS manuscript, to see if it has been miss-transcribed at some point, or it may be that the original OS cartographer used the anglicized form which has stuck, or it may have come from a historical manuscript or antiquarian when anglicized forms were in use.

Both 'Llewelyn' and 'Llywelyn' are commonly used today in Welsh names - some favouring 'Llew-' (especially the abbreviated form), as this conveys 'Lion', whilst 'Llyw' is the Welsh word for helm / to steer.

Not a definitive answer, but interesting nonetheless. — ras52 12:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Origin of the name

How sure are we that the mountain is actually named after Llywelyn ap Gruffudd? Although it's seems highly plausible, the article gives no source for this statement, and the only source I can find (the Nuttalls' book) states: The origin of the names Carnedd Llewelyn and Carnedd Dafydd is unlear. They were probably named either after Llewelyn the Great [sic] (1194-1240) who had a fortified observation post on the mountain and his successor David, or the last two Welsh princes Llewelyn ap Gruffydd [sic] and his brother David. Yr Elen, contradicting this article, it translates as The Hill of the Fawn, and nothing to do with Eleanor de Montfort. — ras52 17:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

* 'Hill of the fawn'. Deer dears. Definately not. CatlinJ 00:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I wondered this as well. Still, at least the connection here is rather more likely than Cader Idris meaning "Arthur's Seat"! garik 17:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

To know the history of an area of Snowdonia, you have to trace back through the beliefs of the people whose families can be proved to have lived there for generation after generation.

Abergwyngregyn according to Professor T. Jones Pierce and Professor Ogwen Williams is a 'unique survival', or at least it was, of people who held a communal memory.

From about 1200 until 1283 Garth Celyn, Aber Garth Celyn, was the main home of the princes of Gwynedd. Though the royal home faced the Menai Strait and the port of Llanfaes, the trackways inland followed the ancient mountain routeways.

The village of Aber was the settlement of a community whose duty was to carry out certain obligations for the 'demesne messuage', of the court. They farmed the fields, tended the animals, brought firewood and so on. Many of the families who lived in Aber until the middle years of twentieth century believed themselves to be descendants of the thirteenth century, and much earlier,community.

As far as I can tell, trawling through Church, Estate and Crown Records and Extents, in Bangor University Archives, Caernarfon Archives, National Library of Wales Archives and the P.R.O., London, they are right.

On 11 December 1282, Llywelyn ap Gruffudd, having left the safety of Garth Celyn and, as he thought, gone to sign and treaty with the Mortimers, was killed. On 22 June 1283, his brother Dafydd ap Gruffudd and his younger son were captured at Bera, within sight of the mountains that we are discussing and executed in the October.

I have read statements made by people who lived in this valley or close by, which state quite clearly that the peaks were named by their ancestors in memory of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd and Dafydd ap Gruffudd, and Llywelyn's wife Eleanor de Montfort,(Elin, Elen, Elinor,as her name was also spelt), and those fateful, traumatic events, as Eryri was encircled by a massive army. (Eleanor, princess of Wales, died in childbirth at Garth Celyn on 19 June 1282.) Garth Celyn was renamed Bryn Llywelyn for the same reason.

Unpublished MSS in the Archives. T. Jones Pierce Papers: Ogwen Williams Papers: Sir Ifor Williams Papers: 'Hanes Abergwyngregyn' L. Hughes, Aber, (1894): Dr Gweneth Lilly, Notes: Lloyd Hughes, Notes.

Local history rarely finds its way into the history books.

BrynLlywelyn 10:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

So, you mean that all of this information is utterly unverifiable word of mouth that has been handed down over centuries? I think Wikipedia normally asks for something a bit more traceable than that. It may well be impossible to find documentary evidence in that case, but then we should only state "It is believed by the residents of Abergwyngregyn to derive from…", and provide a reference for that belief. A supposition, even a widespread one, cannot be presented as fact. Folk etymology is pretty strong in North Wales (cf. Beddgelert, etc.), and I would be extremely wary of taking such undocumented claims as historical evidence. --Stemonitis 11:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Beddgelert is most definately not the example to cite. There is no doubt about how that amusing story originted and the motives behind it. There are others similar.

How does a mountain get its name? By common usage over time. The name Carnedd Llywelyn can be traced back to at least 1400 (Rhys Goch Eryri), and the name was obviously in common use then. Who used that name? The local people who lived in the local area. Not Victorian to modern day travellers passing through.

There is ample documentary evidence for the name. But you have to go to the Archives to read it. Bangor, Caernarfon and so forth.

Why has this name evidence not appeared in print? Because, sadly, Welsh history gets minimal funding, and producing books is costly. Count the number of books written about say Henry VIII and compare this to the number of books written about Llywelyn the Great as an example.

I have made a careful study of place names in Eryri over the past two decades. I have gone to original source material wherever possible, and talked to countless, often elderly, local people who live and work in the mountains. I have read the research carried out by scholars interested in the subject. I have read journals, diaries, local history books written by local people and so forth. I have discussed those findings with people associated with The Centre of Advanced Welsh and Celtic Studies, including Caerwyn Williams, and local history societies.

John Rhys, Professor of Celtic and Principal of Jesus College, Oxford, using Derfel Hughes as one of his sources, accepted Carnedd Llywelyn as being the correct name for the mountain, and associated it with Llywelyn ap Gruffudd, and Carnedd Dafydd as being associated with Dafydd ap Gruffudd.

See the unpublished notes of Professor Rhys, and the summary published as Celtic Folklore in 1891.

BrynLlywelyn 11:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

That summary is something that we can use, although its age speaks against it. Unpublished notes are not something we can use, and nor, unfortunately, is your own original research (at least until it's published), which is a shame, because you seem to be about the best authority around. --Stemonitis 12:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Two seperate issues.

1. The spelling of Carnedd Llywelyn.

2. To which Llywelyn is it dedicated? Both lived a short distance away at Garth Celyn.

If we accept that it is named in memory of Llywelyn, either 'the Great' or his grandson 'our last Leader', then the spelling must be consistent.

Wikipedia uses the traditional spelling of Llywelyn on the pages connected to both those men, and then rediverts the other alternatives. As Llywelyn comes first in Wikipedia, and that is accepted, surely it should come first in the name of Carnedd Llywelyn, and other spellings redivert. BrynLlywelyn 13:11, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

This doesn't follow. Just because Vauxhall is named after Faulke de Breaute, that doesn't mean we have to spell it "Faulke's Hall" or "Faulkeshall". Etymology and spelling are not necessarily linked. --Stemonitis 13:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Please can we keep discussion of these two issues separate, and keep the discussion on spelling to the first section of this page. BrynLlywelyn, as you clearly have more detailed knowledge of this than most of us, can you comment specifically on the Llywelyn the Great versus Llywelyn ap Gruffudd question? Also, are you able to add a full citation for Celtic Folklore (1891) to the article, preferably as a reference to the sentence about Llywelyn ap Gruffudd? — ras52 14:31, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Hiya guys. I'm new to Wikipedia. Hope that I can still add to this debate. I have an OS map that belonged to my father. On it Carnedd Dafydd is shown as Ddafydd. That has now been corrected, and I hope the same happens to Carnedd Llewelyn, which should be Carnedd Llywelyn. That is the name by which it is known in Llanberis, where my family lives round the corner from Pete's Eats. Pete has a great library that he lets people use. Some of the authors of books aimed at tourists copy each other like sheep. Bryn has it right - Llywelyn ap Gruffudd, Dafydd ap Gruffudd, Elinor de Montfort.

CatlinJ 14:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia, CatlinJ. Whilst drifting a little off topic, you say that Carnedd Ddafydd has been corrected. Actually it was never wrong! (No criticism intended.) Whilst it's no longer traditional to mutate people's names, it is not actually wrong to do so when following a feminine noun (such as Carnedd). Therefore "Gwyl Dewi" can also correctly be "Gwyl Ddewi". But I wonder, therefore, did that particular map also mutate to Carnedd Lywelyn? Hogyn Lleol 15:17, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi there Hogyn Lleol.

• I KNOW that it isnt 'wrong', and I shall make an effort to be more precise in future. Still trying to get my Wikipedia name from red to black. But hey. Will get there in the end. And for information, I am Welsh first language and went to school in Bangor before University in Cardiff. Just trying to tell our friends from over the border the simple fact that errors occur, and some by the most respected of scholars. As for me, I would put local knowledge before anything in this area. If my grandfather, who knew the mountains so well, had written a 'paper' on it, would I believe that more than what he told me??? Common sense as well as common knowledge should prevail.
• Just think this through logically, and PLEASE dont use the word 'confusion' in the article as this is the type of highly insulting put you down that in Welsh Wales we have sadly to suffer. The name has survived for hundreds of years. Welcome that fact. If my family and other people in the area are wrong and it is to the memory of Llywelyn Fawr, not Llywelyn ap Gruffudd, no big deal. At least you are acknowledging the fact that there was a man by that name who was highly regarded by his people, and you are discussing it which few 'history' books do. OOps sorry. Edward II was number I. No one before. Come on guys. No more grief on this one. Include both names. And be friendly about it, while I check the archives when I have time. CatlinJ 21:14, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

CatlinJ — are you able to reference a published source that says Carnedd Llewelyn is named after Llywelyn ap Gruffudd without mentioning the posibility that it might actually be named after Llywelyn the Great? Also are you able to reference a published source for Eleanor de Montfort's association with Yr Elen? Either of these would be particularly useful. Incidentally, if you want to discuss the spelling of Carnedd Llewelyn versus Carnedd Llywelyn, please can you keep that to the thread above so we can try to keep this on the (hopefully) less controversial question of who the mountain is named after? Thanks. — ras52 16:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

"The Mountains of Snowdonia", by Carr & Lister (pub. 1925) contains the following regarding the name of Carnedd Llewelyn [sic]. It might contain something of interest : Hogyn Lleol 17:25, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

"Llewelyn owes its name, according to Derfel Hughes ["Antiquities of Llandegai & Llanllechid", 1866] to Llewelyn the Great (1194-1240), who lived at Aber, and is said to have used the mountain as an observation post. ..... An investigation of the remains of ancient stone structures on this mountain was made in 1847 by Longueville Jones, who found that the fortified carnedd, which is said to have occupied the summit in former times, has apparently been altered out of recognition. Hughes refers to a cairn situated "on a spur overlooking Ffynnon Llyffaint". This was locally known as Carnedd Drystan, and was supposed to mark the grave of the celebrated Trystan ap Tallwch, the Sir Tristram of the Romances. Hughes also refers to the "fortified carnedd", from the stones of which an observation tower was raised in the year 1845. He believed this to be the place referred to by Rhys Goch of Eryri as the grave of Rhica or Rhita Gawr. It may be that we have here the name by which the mountain was known prior to the twelfth century; though according to some writers the true Carnedd Rhita is on the summit of Snowdon."

Hiya Guys.

• I know the history from my family, who have lived in this area from way way back. Welsh first language. Great grandfather was a mountain guide, and so was his father.
• We talked about Carnedd Llywelyn at school, and the teacher, a highly respected local man, always said that the mountains were named to honour the two men who made a last stand to keep Wales free. He said that it wasnt an ego thing to name them in this way, but a mark of respect.

The two peaks are together, and that makes sense. Elinor is close to them. There are no fawns in these mountains.

• Dafydd ap Llywelyn, who died at Aber in 1246, was ailing, and could not make a stand against his uncle Henry lll. He was not a 'hero' as such.
• Published sources??? Wales has always relied on its bards to be the keepers of its history. An oral tradition, not a written one, and with messages in the words and sounds. King Edward put the blocks on things written. The Blue Books tried to stop things spoken as well. I know that Ioan Bowen Rees, an Oxford scholar but a local man, knew the traditions as did Sir Ifor Williams. Will look them both up. And also Jones Pierce. and early poetry in Welsh.
• It isnt confusing.CatlinJ 21:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Undocumented and largely unsubstantiated oral tradition do not constitute suitably verifiable references for Wikipedia. So far, no-one has been able to provide a suitable reference that unambiguously names Llywelyn ap Gruffydd as the origin of this mountain; similarly no-one has provided any reference to associate Eleanor de Montfort with Yr Elen. Now, if anyone can cite a book, paper, article or similar that contains some form of scholarly research into the etymology, that would be excellent; similarly, a published source stating that the local inhabitants believe the mountains to be named after Llywelyn ap Gruffydd, Dafydd ap Gruffydd and Eleanor de Montfort, that too would be good. But assertions by local residents, however useful in drawing our attention to a possible inaccuracy, do not meet Wikipedia's requirements for verifiability in a controversial case such as this. — ras52 02:33, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Ras52. Could we discuss this at Pete's Eats next time you are in my home town? Or over a beer at Coffi Roc, Caernarfon. Hey Man. We can bat and ball this one for ever and a day, Simple fact. Bryn is right. These mountains have memories.CatlinJ 21:24, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I always thought it was Cofi roc... Anyway, the point is not whether he's right or not. It's whether he can back up his assertion with the right sort of evidence. Strange as it may seem, just because something's true doesn't mean it can go into Wikipedia. garik 00:57, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

• Sorry about that. It is Cofi Roc. Was attempting humour.....and obviously failed. CatlinJ 23:42, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry:) It's not good to correct people like that, especially when they're being funny. My fault. Grumpy mood. garik 01:00, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

• Do we need to take another poll for the correct spelling of the name? This is so tedious. Clearly the locals should know the correct spelling, rather then some servay person from London. This sounds so like that movie An Englishman who went up a hill and came down a mountain! lol.Drachenfyre 07:15, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Can only but agree with Catlin and Drachenfyre's sentiments.

I am working away from home this week and dont have access to my own books, and havent had the opportunity to go to the Archives. I know that Lloyd Hughes of Llanfairfechan, Dr Gweneth Lilly of Llanfairfechan, Sir Ifor Williams of Tregarth, Ieuan Wyn of Bethesda, Ioan Bowen Rees, Dr Colin Gresham have all written papers on the local place names. I do not think that any of these highly respected individuals have published these papers, apart from in journals, and usually in Welsh. Much of their work is in the National Library of Wales Archives, together with the research notes of Professor T. Jones Pierce, who worked on the original land transfer records of Aberconwy Abbey, and also the Extents prepared by the Crown of England after the conquest. We can trawl through these when time allows, and I am certain that we can find a suitable reference.

But back to where we started, I feel very strongly that the local people should have first call on this. The men who walked the mountains, such as Catlins great-great-grandfather, should have their knowlege and beliefs accepted as evidence, unless anyone else can prove otherwise. BrynLlywelyn 22:20, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Scholarly papers published in journals are precisely what we're looking for — they're a far more appropriate source than throw-away comments in walking guides. So if at some convenient point you can provide some references, that would be good. (Ideally to English-language journals, though I appreciate this might be difficult.) As I said earlier, so far, no-one has been able to provide a suitable reference that unambiguously names Llywelyn ap Gruffydd as the origin of this mountain; similarly no-one has provided any reference to associate Eleanor de Montfort with Yr Elen, whereas some of the alternative theories do have references backing them up. If you can provide references, that changes things considerably. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ras52 (talk • contribs) 00:50, 15 December 2006 (UTC).

Nadolig Llawen to all.

Am back home in Snowdonia, with clear blue skies and no fog, but the Archives have closed for Christmas. Will take this further as soon as I can. but in the meantime please take the word 'confusion' out of the article. The word is not a friendly one. Llywelyn Fawr certainly made the boundary line when he donated the land to the Cistercians; Llywelyn ap Gruffudd and his brother Dafydd ap Gruffudd, were the Guardians of Gwynedd who made the last stand for freedom and Welsh independence together. happy to meet up with anyone at Pete's Eats or Cofi Roc anytime that I am in my home area, to discuss. BrynLlywelyn 12:00, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

• Nadolig llawen a blwyddyn newydd dda to all.

Ras52 o Ras52. I can take you to meet genuine local families in Llanberis, Caernarfon, Bethesda, Aber, Llanfairfechan and you can hear the oral tradition for yourself. You really have a bee in your bonnet on this one, and I would guess that no matter what anyone comes up with, you will find another corner to go round to put obstacles in the way. The mountain should be spelt LLYWELYN as it respects the MAN by that name. And common sense if nothing else should tell you that two peaks together, are to respect the 2 brothers who at the critical time faced the armies of the king of England, and were killed for the cause and their beliefs. Walk these mountains with an open mind man, and you will see clearly. CatlinJ 14:10, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I've edited the offending paragraph to eliminate the word "confusion" and mention local tradition. How's that? I would also encourage everyone, rather than arguing over and over the same points on the talk page, to be bold and edit the article. If other people disagree with your changes they may revert or alter them, but that's the way the wiki works. If we have to add the odd {{fact}} tag on statements that we believe to be verifiable but can't document for the time being, so be it - better that than be stuck with a version that hardly anyone is happy with! --Blisco 21:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I have added a reference for the brothers Llywelyn and Dafydd ap Gruffydd being the people commemorated in the mountain names. The source states in full "They are of particular interest among the mountains with personal names as they are quite obviously called after the last native Prince of Wales and his brother." I think this statement of how "obvious" it is is better than an unverifiable nod to "local tradition". --Stemonitis 10:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to add what I regard as being the "clincher" testimony with regard to both the question of origin and spelling of Carnedd LLYWELYN. As already mentioned above and in the article, the earliest reference is in a poem attributed to Rhys Goch Eryri (most scholars hold it to be a generation or so later, but that's by the way: still late medieval, probably c. 1470-80 at the very latest). The poem belongs to the medieval Welsh tradition of prophetic verse.

In the opening lines the poet addresses the mountain to discover who will be the next 'Mab Darogan' (the prophesised hero who will save Wales and drive out the English). He calls the mountain "[C]arnedd // - llewpart ysigddart seigddur - / Llywelyn, frenin gwyn gwŷr." What is especially interesting is the line 'llewpart ysigddart seigddur'. Llewpart (llewpard) means 'leopard' as a metaphor for a brave warrior. Ysigddart (ysig + dart) means 'splintered/shattered spear' (suggesting a hero fallen in battle). Seigddur (saig/seig + dur) is a compound word which can be translated as 'steel's meal', i.e. killed in battle (having fought ferociously, spear shattered). It seems 100% clear that the poet meant Llywelyn ap Gruffudd, Tywysog Cymru, and can not possibly have meant Llywelyn Fawr. It would seem perfectly reasonable to assume that his audience (and as a prophetic poem it was aimed at as wide an audience as possible) was also perfectly familiar with the meaning and significance of the name 'Carnedd Llywelyn'. So what is it with quoting the OS and assorted English writers as 'authorities'? Carnedd Llywelyn is named after Llywelyn Ein Llyw Olaf. And it's Llywelyn not Llewelyn (even if Llewelyn is a perfectly acceptable 'modern' form of the name). Now please can we have the true Welsh name on this article? (It follows logically that Dafydd = Dafydd ap Gruffudd and Elen = Elenor de Montford but that's not my point).

I don't know of an English translation. You'll find the text and notes in Llywelyn y Beirdd, ed. J.E. Caerwyn Williams et al. (Barddas, 1984), as well as in Syr Ifor Williams' earlier edition (Gwaith Iolo Goch ac Eraill, GPC, 1937). Enaidmawr 00:12, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I see what you're getting at, but English-language sources can be authoritative in this respect. The question is not "What was the original name of the mountain?" or even "What do most Welsh people call the mountain?" The question is: "How is the mountain most widely known in English?" garik 14:05, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate that this is the English wikipedia, but the Spanish city of Sevilla is referred to under the Spanish form of the name rather than 'Seville', which is undoubtedly much more common than 'Sevilla' in English. Why? Because the name is still recognisable and the native form is respected. This is equally true with regard to Carnedd Llywelyn. No doubt a lot of English people still use 'Caernarvon' for Caernarfon, and if it was a question of relying on English 'authorities' solely a survey of English books and maps of the last century or so would almost certainly come out in favour of 'Caernarvon', by quite a wide margin. 'Carnedd Llywelyn' is no more problematic to an English speaker than 'Carnedd Llewelyn'. It also enjoys the not inconsiderable advantage of being the correct form of the name in Welsh, the language of the country in which it is situated. So what is the problem? Enaidmawr 21:09, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually the article title is Seville! And that's the form used throughout—I'd be very surprised if it were Sevilla (which is a redirect). And I'm not convinced at all that Caernarvon would win by a large margin: my Collins road atlas, at least, has Caernarfon. In any case, my feelings about Carnedd Ll?welyn are not strong: I'm not entirely certain how I'd spell the name in Welsh or English: I've never had to. I grew up under Cader Idris, and I don't write Cadair Idris in any language, although I have no objection to the latter being the title of the article here. Now, some people do seem to feel rather more strongly than me that this article should be called Carnedd Llewelyn, while others go the other way. We therefore have to be very clear what the criterion should be: it seems clear to me that the title of the article should be the most widely used form in English. We need sources to back that—not the original form or the form in Welsh—up. After all, we don't have articles titled Moskva or Praha or Qomolangma. garik 01:16, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Spelling, hopefully for the last time

(Starting a new section for ease of navigation)

Right, we really need to establish a consensus on this issue. Let me see if I can sum up the evidence:

1. In Welsh, the name is unequivocally spelt Carnedd Llywelyn.
2. In English-language sources, usage varies:
   1. The Ordnance Survey uses Carnedd Llewelyn.
   2. Many sources, especially walking guides with a wide geographical scope, also use Llewelyn. It is likely that the authors of these sources derive this spelling from the OS.
   3. Other sources use Llywelyn, especially those dealing with local history and culture and those by Welsh authors, but also walking guides by notable English authors such as Poucher, Marsh et al.
   4. No reliable source has been found that discusses the difference in spelling; all aforementioned sources seem to take their preferred spelling for granted.
3. Some editors feel strongly that Carnedd Llywelyn is the only correct form and that we should use that.
4. Some editors feel strongly that we should use the spelling favoured by a majority of reliable English-language sources.
5. It has been suggested that the Ordnance Survey spelling should be regarded as more definitive; however, there is little precedent for this rule in other British place-name disputes on Wikipedia. [Not sure about this last point; examples one way or the other are welcome, please.]

Therefore, given that

1. We must be bound at all times by Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and Wikipedia:Verifiability;
2. Llywelyn is found in plenty of reliable English-language sources, possibly a majority, and especially in those that might be considered more reliable;
3. Several editors are strongly in favour of Llywelyn;
4. Few if any editors are strongly in favour of Llewelyn;…

I propose that this article be moved to Carnedd Llywelyn.

Does anyone have any objections, either to my reasoning or to the proposition? --Blisco 19:20, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Seems a good argument to me. garik 19:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Mildly object due to perceived pre-eminence of Ordnance Survey and the fact that the Welsh Language Board (quoted above) are unwilling to say Llyw- is more correct than Llew-. Could I suggest someone in favour of the change emails the OS and asks whether they have an opinion? They're generally good at giving answers by email, and we shouldn't assume that just because the maps (almost) all use Llew- that they believe this is correct. (Sometimes the cost of making a correction is deemed prohibitive, at least in the short term.) I would do it myself, but I've sent quite a few queries to them recently and don't want to get a reputation for nagging ;-) If they acknowledge Llyw to be at least as correct as Llew (when used in English), I'll withdraw my objection. — ras52 17:48, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree entirely with the proposal. Thank you Blisco for such a clear summing up of the situation. In answer to Ras52's "mild objection", I'm not sure I get your point regarding the OS as I thought the argument was against their pre-eminence. With regard to the Welsh Language Board's typically waffling answer, they are clearly speaking in general terms. They are also not entirely correct.

1 "The correct spelling for the historical figure referred to would be Llywelyn, however, as a place name, irrespective of accuracy, Llewelyn has been used quite a lot." Are they referring to Carnedd Llywelyn or the appearance of 'Llewelyn' in place-names in general? I read the latter and as many place-names containing 'Llewelyn' are not connected with Llywelyn ap Gruffudd I fail to see what that proves.

2. "You would need to check all early versions, including the original OS manuscript, to see if it has been miss-transcribed at some point, or it may be that the original OS cartographer used the anglicized form which has stuck, or it may have come from a historical manuscript or antiquarian when anglicized forms were in use." 'Check ALL early versions' - are they kidding? Which one of us is going to take a week or so to traipse around various libraries and archive departments to do that? I think we have enough evidence above.

3. "Both 'Llewelyn' and 'Llywelyn' are commonly used today in Welsh names - some favouring 'Llew-' (especially the abbreviated form), as this conveys 'Lion', whilst 'Llyw' is the Welsh word for helm / to steer." Quite correct, you might think, but they are talking of modern personal names: irrelevant again. They are also more than slightly adrift to blithely say that 'llyw' means 'helm / to steer'. So 'Llywelyn Ein Llyw Olaf' means 'Llywelyn Our Last Helm'? That is one meaning, but 'llyw' has the secondary meaning 'leader, chieftain, ruler, lord' and this is the 'llyw' in the name 'Llywelyn' (and is one reason for it being such a popular name with medieval Welsh rulers and nobility). So much for the WLB (or rather whoever was in the office at the time) as an authority on the etymology and form of Welsh place-names.

To sum up, let's move the article where it belongs: under Carnedd Llywelyn. Enaidmawr 23:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Re 1: The response from the Welsh Language Board that you are quoting is in direct response to my question:

"I wonder whether you can advise on the correct spelling of 'Carnedd Llewelyn', a mountain in Snowdonia. The Ordnance Survey use this spelling, but 'Llywelyn' is frequently used elsewhere."

It's not a general comment.

Re 2: Their response is totally reasonable—that none of us is willing to spend days checking archives (and even if we did, it would be original research and inadmissable) is not the Welsh Language Board's problem.

Re 3: No-one disputes that in Welsh and originally, Llywelyn is correct. But Wikipedia requires the most commonly used spelling in English today, not in Welsh, and not historically. You may not like this, but it is the case. And in this regard, the OS's spelling, whether or not etymologically correct, is strongly followed. The meanings of llyw and llew are utterly irrelevent.

If you can convince me that Llywelyn is more commonly used in English today, I'll accept the change; but repeated arguments based on irrelevant (to Wikipedia) etymological or historical lines, just make me more determined to object to the page move. So please try a relevent argument. —ras52 23:24, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, I've emailed the OS about this, and eagerly await their response. I still don't think they should necessarily be given any special authority, as their track record is not great when it comes to mountain names or, formerly at least, Welsh names. (Interestingly, there are a few instances of Wainwright consciously using a name different to that given on the OS maps of his day, where the OS form has since been amended in favour of Wainwright!) But it will be interesting to know whether the OS have carefully considered the spelling of CL and decided in favour of their existing version, whether they are aware of it but haven't regarded it as a priority, or whether it has simply never come to their attention. --Blisco 19:11, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Recently had a chat with an OS official in Wales (not about this issue), who said that most queries addressed to them were about place names! However, they are only middle-men, and print info as supplied by the relevent local authority. So they can only change names when requested to do so by said authority. However, it will indeed be interesting to see their official response regarding Llewelyn [sic] .... Hogyn Lleol 19:35, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I've had a reply from the OS. It reads:

“ Thank you for your email of 4 April 2007 regarding the spelling of Llewelyn on our maps.

Ordnance Survey receives all place name information from the Local Authority. As a result if you would like the name changed you will need to petition the Local Authority and if successful ask them to let Ordnance Survey know that they would like the name changed.

I do hope you find this information useful. Thank you for contacting Ordnance Survey.

”

Not very enlightening, and it certainly doesn't address the point of my email - I didn't say I "would like the name changed", I merely asked whether the OS had ever considered the issue. However, I think we can infer that they haven't. --Blisco 21:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Move it to Llywelyn and continue the debate from there. The majority of English language sources cite Llywelyn, most editors embrace this. This is the proper course of action. The onus now is with the Llewelyn camp to prove theirs is more correct, as the majority favor Llywelyn as the correct. Drachenfyre 07:05, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Final Summary

I've just read through this page one more time in order to come up with some stats. Here they are:

Contributors' views.

FOR Carnedd LLYWELYN - 6 (CatlinJ, BrynLlywelyn, Hogyn Lleol, Enaidmawr, Drachenfyre, Gowron)

Initially neutral, finally in favour of Carnedd LLYWELYN - 1 (Blisco)

FOR using the most most widely used form in English, whichever that may be - 1 (garik)

UNDECIDED/NEUTRAL - 1 (Stemonitis,

Strongly AGAINST - 1 (ras52)

Authorities quoted in list (see above).

Carnedd LLYWELYN - 18 [mostly local or Welsh language sources — ras52 - I've balanced this somewhat, I've not added up the total Gowron)]

Carnedd LLEWELYN - 10 (mostly following the OS or unreliable, e.g. GoogleEarth)

I move that this article be moved to Carnedd Llywelyn as the majority of contributors to this debate are for it and the sources back their argument. Enaidmawr 23:58, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed Hogyn Lleol 07:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Ye gods, this is still going on? If that's the consensus, move it and be done with it. But somewhere (over on WP:WWNB, perhaps), we really need to establish how reliable, authoritive and/or citable we think the OS is, generally, and whether there are any exceptions. OS spellings have come up here, Talk:Crickhowell, Talk:Aberdyfi and probably all sorts of other places: those are just some I remembered. The people on WP:SCO might have an opinion, too, as the question of Gaelic placenames regularly crops up. Telsa (talk) 09:03, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

WP:WWNB certainly isn't the place to decide a general policy. The reliability (or otherwise) of the OS isn't a Welsh-specific issue. — ras52 18:34, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm not too fussed about where it happens, but I think it is worth looking at. If you have suggestions on where better, feel free to go for it. (And if I don't respond, drop a note on my talk page; I don't watch this page regularly.) Telsa (talk) 21:26, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I would still like to see someone actually address the issues I've raised rather than simply reasserting the same undisputed points about the mountain's etymology. However I can see that's unlikely to happen. So if the move does go ahead, can the person doing it please make some effort to update the mountain's spelling in the hills lists (etc.) that link to it.[— ras52 18:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Just go ahead and move it to Llywelyn and continue the debate from there. The majority of English language sources cite Llywelyn, most editors embrace this. This is the proper course of action. The onus now is with the Llewelyn camp to prove theirs is more correct, as the majority favor Llywelyn as the correct Drachenfyre 07:09, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

• Llywelyn not Llewelyn, for all the reasons given. Today, in the warm spring sunshine and with a clear blue sky, the mountains of Eryri looked spectacular. Happy Easter BrynLlywelyn 21:32, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

• FOR what its worth I vote for Llywelyn. For consistency purposes with the few history and mountaineering books and journals I have. (Gowron 12:13, 10 April 2007 (UTC))

Vote stacking

I'm disturbed to discover that, in contravention of WP:CANVAS#Votestacking, Enaidmawr is trying to stack votes in this poll [1], [2], [3], [4]. This behaviour is not acceptable on Wikipedia. — ras52 20:06, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Page move

Today I tried to move this article to Carnedd Llywelyn, considering that consensus was sufficient for a move, but found that the move was blocked because of a (rather unnecessary) edit history at the latter page; this means that a move request will have to be made. I don't have time for much Wiki activity these days, and really don't feel strongly about the issue, so it's up to anyone who does to do the necessaries. (I would also reiterate ras52's request to take the effort to change the spelling on articles that link to this one, where appropriate.) --Blisco 21:16, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

References

Citations are supposed to be informative and useful to the reader. The Name section, until I edited it this evening, had 17 footnotes in just seven sentences. It's not a game to see how many footnotes we can get into a short passage. 17 is patently ridiculous, however controversial the subject. And when you find an article entitled Morphology and distribution of features resulting from frost action in Snowdonia cited to justify the fact that Llywelyn is a Welsh personal name, you realise we've entered the realm of shear bloody stupidity. So please don't just gratuitously add more references. — ras52 19:59, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

No disrespect, but you seem to be taking this personnaly, which is poor and I will put in relevant references where people have stated, like yourself, rather slanted remarks about local writers only use Llywelyn.

I'm sure you know but but just case you didn't "et. al". means something like "and others", the reason "et. al." is there, is that were 19 contributing authors. I do not agree with you arbitrarily removing references or citations, what I was showing was that other authoratative documentary evidence exists, and not soley confined to Welsh or local publications. Its is important to get a cross section, you are incorrect to suggest that 17 (I didn't put the mall there?) is a long list, neither is it against Wikipedia rules, see Yeti of Bigfoot, etc, the long lists there are quite relevant, to provide proof of what one is saying.

I would hope that other people in this article would take a dim view of your unilateral deletions. Can somebody else take a look at the last edit by Gowron. Citations can be removed yes but with general consent. I thought the Royal Geographical Society reference was quite relevant, thats been deleted and so has the "Gerald of Wales" book from 1198 and so on. (Gowron 07:53, 12 April 2007 (UTC))

OK, I accept that "local" is probably inappropriate term, "Welsh", per your latest commit, is much better. I hadn't intended it to sound derogatory about "local" sources, though I accept it could have been taken that way. So thank you for changing that.

Re long lists of footnotes. Yes, we can find other examples (such as Yeti) which also have long lists of footnotes—and if that were an area of Wikipedia I felt particularly involved with, I would go and do the same to that article. But my point is that most users don't care about citations and footnotes; skipping one at the end of a sentence or sub-clause is visually easy enough, but when they become as dense as they had done, they get in the way. The point of this commit was solely to merge citations into a single footnote. In that commit, no citations were removed.

Re et al. (not "et. al" — al is the abbrevation): yes, it means "and others", and you can't say it without giving a primary author. So saying a paper is written by "et al." is nonsense; saying it was written by R. B. Walker et al. is correct (assuming he is the primary author — it isn't clear to me whether he was the journal editor or the primary author).

Re the references I deleted. These were for two separate reasons: the ones I removed in this commit were simply because the statement they were attached to is fairly self-evident (Llywelyn is a Welsh personal name) and the citations weren't really appropriate to this statement. This feel free to reinstate them elsewhere, though. So I've nothing against the RGS reference or the 1198 book; just that they don't really seem appropriate there.

The ones removed in this commit were because they seemed very similar, and to add nothing additional, to other references in the same list. Specifically, three ecology journals were cited, I reduced this to one; and three general-purpose books about Snowdonia were given, and I reduced this to one.

— ras52 09:27, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair anough this is better, I take your points, especially the "et. al". Although I don't think I said anything specific about the local vs Welsh, apart from suggesting (which was my main point, probably poorly made) that the usage of "Llywelyn" has a wide usage in English and is not soley confined to Welsh writers, etc.

The footnotes in the Yeti document were added at the express requests from users. If you were to remove the citations there, then paragraphs would have to be deleted because they are not supported. The same goes for the Kangchenjuga work. That was the reason I used them here. Thanks for your explanations. (Gowron 11:27, 12 April 2007 (UTC))

Parent peak

I'm about to revert the part of this edit which removed reference to Snowdon as CL's parent peak under the commit message "parent peak is NOT Snowdon!". There are some cases where a mountain's parent peak is either not obvious or is unknown (due to unknown details of the local topography), but this is not one of those cases! CL's parent must clearly be a taller and more prominent mountain: solely based on this observation, it must be either Snowdon or a mountain up in the Scottish Highlands. And it's pretty clear that both Pen-y-Pass and the A5 west of Capel Curig (the two candidates for its key col — in fact it is the A5) are both over 300 m — much higher than the highest point in Scotland's Central Belt (which you must pass to get the Highlands). So in this case, there's absolutely no doubt that Snowdon must be CL's parent peak. The fact is quoted elsewhere in Wikipedia without demur, for example here and here. Perhaps you've misunderstood what parent peak means? — ras52 10:25, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Carnedd Llywelyn, spelt thus, in the news

The renaming of Carnedd Uchaf as Carnedd Gwenllian has been in the news recently, and it's worth noting that the two variant spellings of the neighbouring peak's name were used interchangeably in the English-language media. The Welsh Assembly Government, Western Mail, NewsWales and this Snowdonia tourist website all spell Carnedd Llywelyn with two ys. The OS spelling is used by the Daily Post, the BBC (albeit in a page from 2005) and this mountaineering site. At the very least this should be reflected in a change to the article's opening line:

Carnedd Llewelyn, usually spelt Carnedd Llywelyn in Welsh → Carnedd Llewelyn (also spelt Carnedd Llywelyn, as it is usually [if not invariably?] spelt in Welsh)

But if both spellings are equally valid in English, I would prefer Llywelyn in the article title, as it is the standard form for the princes of that name. Ham 20:10, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Agree ~Geaugagrrl ^talk 20:46, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

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