Talk:2024 New York City Subway immolation

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Image change

Why does the image keep getting changed? The NFF is the most accurate depiction. E_F⁵ 22:18, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Arguably the previous image was more accurate as it shows Zapeta-Calil watching the women as mentioned in the article. Ardnieu (talk) 22:21, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We don't even know if that is Zapeta. E_F⁵ 22:23, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

multiple sources desribe the left individual in the image as Zepeta-Calil or the suspect

https://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/horrific-video-shows-suspect-watching-woman-burn-to-death-on-train-after-he-allegedly-set-her-on-fire/news-story/66ae0fe4c01428944e8326fcd1857080

https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/us-news/horrific-video-shows-guatemalan-immigrant-sebastian-zapeta-calmly-watching-woman-burn-to-death-after-setting-her-ablaze-101734943298006.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14221651/subway-fire-migrant-killer-nyc.html

https://nypost.com/2024/12/23/us-news/sebastian-zapeta-calil-idd-as-illegal-migrant-accused-of-setting-woman-on-fire-riding-nyc-subway/ Ardnieu (talk) 22:30, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but we assume complete innocence until he is proven guilty. For now, Zepata is not the committer of the crime. E_F⁵ 22:44, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keeping previous image and changing caption to identify him as the suspect fixes that issue, as Zapeta-Calil has been identified as the man in the images Ardnieu (talk) 22:50, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, the image should go in the "suspect" section. The infobox image is there because it's too big to fit anywhere else. E_F⁵ 22:51, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Terrifying Image

This image in the lead of her on fire is terrifying and distasteful and violates WP:BLP as to the victim. It should be removed. I am not a big fan of censorship, but showing her being burned alive is just plain sick folks, and it violates her rights as a deceased person to avoid this kind of graphic imagery. KindHorta (talk) 04:10, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@KindHorta: You're aware that Wikipedia is not censored, and that BLP doesn't apply as she's dead, right? E_F⁵ 13:29, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

BLP applies for at least a year(WP:BDP. 331dot (talk) 13:31, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yea, but how does that apply to the image? The caption never says that the man is Zepata-Calil. E_F⁵ 13:32, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've re-added a blurred version which was removed, since that's what y'all appear to want. :) E_F⁵ 13:33, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is also BLP to consider with reference to the victim/her family, who may not want her burning body posted on Wikipedia. 331dot (talk) 13:40, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's fair, hence the blurred version. Then again, Self-immolation of Aaron Bushnell… E_F⁵ 13:40, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Self"-immolation. They did it to themselves and wanted people to see it. 331dot (talk) 13:42, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So what's the pushback against the blurred version? It doesn't show the victim, satisfying their need for privacy, while still visualizing the event. E_F⁵ 13:43, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is no amount of blurring that can conceal that the image is of the victim being burned alive. 331dot (talk) 13:45, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We also have the full CCTV video at Killing of Brian Thompson, photos of mass shooters with firearms in high schools, and other things. The blur is enough in my opinion, but feel free to get another opinion, as I'm not being swayed. E_F⁵ 13:47, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm dealing with the article in front of me; issues with other articles should be discussed there. That said, the image of the shooter in 2023 Lewiston shootings does not show his bullets hitting his victims. 331dot (talk) 13:51, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I'm giving examples of times where graphic imagery is included in Wikipedia articles with community consensus, which is completely relevant here. Do you think Brian Thompson's family likes the video? Probably not. Is it included for historical purposes? Sure is. The blurred version looks fine, is my point. "No amount of blurring hides someone dying" seems WP:IDONTLIKEIT-y, at least to me. Anyways, I'll step back and enjoy Christmas instead of arguing about people being burned alive in subways. E_F⁵ 13:55, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly, I do think it is appropriate to remove the image of the victim being burned. She wasn't a public figure (nor has she been identified for days after the incident), so I can see why it's distasteful to display such an image. Thanks to NYC transit editors, we already have many images of the station and the F route; we can use these instead. – Epicgenius (talk) 03:55, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Then what about the blurred version?? This is my third time bringing it up; with the only reason for objection being "No amount of blurring can show someone dying" which obviously is false as news agencies blur images specifically to avoid gore. E_F⁵ 14:04, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Blurred or not, I think it would still be a violation of WP:BDP. According to that page, extensions of BLP "would apply particularly to contentious or questionable material about the subject that has implications for their living relatives and friends, such as in the case of a possible suicide or particularly gruesome crime." In this case, the victim was indeed killed in what can be considered a gruesome crime. For a similar reason, it would typically be in bad taste to show someone being decapitated or shot, even if it were blurred, if that person was not already a public figure. I'll leave it here, but I just wanted to give my two cents on the subject, namely that I agree with 331dot and KindHorta with regards to the image. – Epicgenius (talk) 14:46, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I also mention public figures because some articles, like Assassination of John F. Kennedy, do include images of their subjects dying. However, since (for example) Kennedy was a public figure whose assassination was widely witnessed, reported, and analyzed, it may make sense to include such images, unlike for articles where the victim wasn't a public figure. – Epicgenius (talk) 14:51, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not a news agency and news agencies are not bound by WP:BLP. Even here, BLP will not apply in six months to a year or so.. 331dot (talk) 17:23, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]