Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 26
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Donald Sterling's playoff record
Could use some input at Talk:Donald_Sterling#Playoff_success. Thanks.—Bagumba (talk) 18:36, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Category:Charlotte Hornets (1988-2002)
Question - the current Charlotte Hornets team is keeping the entirety of its team history, from when it was the original Hornets through the Bobcats right? I see where someone created Category:Charlotte Hornets (1988-2002) back in May and I'm pretty sure this category shouldn't exist at all. If not, I'll CfD it and then ping WT:NBA with the discussion, I just want to make sure first. Jrcla2 (talk) 11:52, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, that category should go. Anyone who played for the Charlotte Hornets at any time should use the "Charlotte Hornets players" category based in the call on history ownership made when the Bobcats changed names. Rikster2 (talk) 12:27, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- CfD here, please weigh in, all. Jrcla2 (talk) 13:13, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Given the healthy discussion on the topic above "Charlotte Hornets records and history," I am surprised not to see many NBA project participants in the discussion. The debate so far has been lively and there is a clear difference of opinion on how the Hornets name change should be handled from a category perspective. If you are happy to adhere to whatever consensus comes from that discussion without input that is fine, but please take a few moments and register your opinions - whatever they might be. Thanks Rikster2 (talk) 11:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
D-League external links
ResolvedAs always seems to be the case with NBA.com stats links, the links to D-League players' stats have changed. As an editor's fix to Jeremy Lin shows, his link has changed from http://www.nba.com/dleague/playerfile/jeremy_lin to http://stats.nbadleague.com/playerProfile.html?PlayerID=202391, the biggest problem being that the name is now transformed to a numerical ID and not an easy change in {{basketballstats}}. Being that basketball-reference.com now includes D-League stats in their profiles for NBA players e.g. see "Full Record" link next to "D-League" near the top at Lin's b-r.com profile, should we just remove support from the template for NBA.com-provided D-League stats?—Bagumba (talk) 02:30, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- The "dleague" parameter to Template:Basketballstats is now deprecated.—Bagumba (talk) 08:07, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Agreeing to vs. signing a contract
There's been a few articles this offseason where a reliable source says a player/coach has agreed to a contract, and people go and update a bio's lead, infobox etc. with the new team info. However, the source doesn't say the contract was signed, and the team has not issued a press release. The most recent example is Byron Scott, who has confirmed an agreement with the Lakers. Or Chris Bosh, who most would accept is part of the Miami Heat now—even NBA.com's free agent tracker lists him with Miami—but there has been no press release yet, presumably since Miami will sign him last due to salary cap reasons. While I can see how neither Scott nor Bosh is "official", perhaps either side reneges and the contract isn't done, is it for all intents and purposes a done deal? Even if it's not, few editors will recognize the fine print, and has only led to edit wars. I'd suggest the best compromise is to live with changes once a player/coach acknowledges there is an agreement to sign. Open to other suggestions. I hope to summarize ideas here into Wikipedia:WikiProject Sports/Handling sports transactions, which is linked whenever anyone adds {{current sports transaction}} to an article.—Bagumba (talk) 01:21, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- As an example, Bagumba, I submit the Mike Miller/Cleveland Cavaliers case. The Cavaliers and Miller's agent announced a deal twelve days ago (widely reported by ESPN and other reliable sources), but have never publicly confirmed a signed contract between team and player. As of today, 10:30 p.m. EDT, Miller still does not appear on the Cavaliers' team roster on their official team website. Oversight by management or webmaster? I don't know, but I do note that Erik Murphy, who was acquired by the Cavaliers in a trade five days ago, is shown on the team roster.
- In the absence of reliable sources definitively stating that a contract has been signed, perhaps the expedient is to make the Wikipedia article changes at such time as the team shows the new player on their official team website. In Mike Miller's case, however, that still has not happened. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:36, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Then there is Bosh, who is listed on Miami's roster on NBA.com with no "FA" qualifier like Ray Allen does. I don't think there's a black or white answer to this. The question is can we agree on a shade of gray?—Bagumba (talk) 03:30, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- More on Miller: He did say "But I'm so excited to be a part of the Cleveland family and their fans." and is also listed on NBA.com's FA tracker w/ CLE.—Bagumba (talk) 03:36, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I'd be fine with adding Miami back into Chris Bosh's infobox etc just to make it easier for when players stick with their original team. But take Wesley Johnson (basketball) for example. I had put the Lakers back into the infobox and lead because he had agreed to re-sign with the Lakers and to make it easier as pass-by views would just edit it anyway. However, just recently a user removed the Lakers from the infobox because "it's not official" – so even with this scenario, some people don't agree to add agreements to the article (which is technically correct). So if we make exceptions for Mike Miller well then we should make exceptions for all players i.e. Cartier Martin agreed to sign with the Pistons on July 1 and is still not official, Kent Bazemore etc. So for articles like Mike Miller and James Jones I say no, but for Chris Bosh or Wesley Johnson I say yes – purely because the latter two are sticking with their 2013–14 team. Miller and Jones are technically not Cavs players yet, simple as that – keep in mind though, it's still only July, so there's plenty of time yeah? DaHuzyBru (talk) 04:30, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Keep in mind that whatever criteria we set, people are always going to revert. I'm just looking for a solution that core editors can agree to, while minimizing (not eliminating) the need to revert drive-byes, but still being verifiable with the least amount of speculation as possible to adhere to WP:BLP.—Bagumba (talk) 05:07, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Personally I'd be OK with a truly reliable source (major paper or sports site) specifically reporting a signing (as opposed to "reportly will sign" and not including summer league "signings"). I do think it is important that a signing is confirmed in the report, as the rumored signings often don't pan out. Rikster2 (talk) 05:36, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Would you be OK with something like "agreeing to terms" confirmed by a named rep of the player or team e.g. not "according to sources"? I think most reputable sites I've noticed this year are clear to say they've reached an agreement, and don't actually say they've signed until the team's press release.—Bagumba (talk) 07:14, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- So with this "agreeing to terms" proposal, are you saying update everything as per usual (infobox, lead, current roster template etc) but instead do "On July 28, 2014, X agreed to terms with Y" and then when officially announced then change it to "On July 29, 2014, X signed with Y"? Bare in mind, this may be difficult for some to comprehend and could become confusing. DaHuzyBru (talk) 10:41, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Let's not discuss the text in the body for now, as rarely do drive-by editors add anything there anyways. It's usually just the infobox and team in the lead sentence that gets updated. My proposal, given the limited editors on this WikiProject that are available to enforce WP:V and WP:CRYSTAL, is to let the lead/infobox be updated if some involved party (not anonymous source) is directly quoted as having reached agreement to a contract. None of us has to add it, but we don't need to spend time reverting it constantly. We can put {{current sports transaction}} on the page, and put in the body that it is an "agreement", but all articles have a general disclaimer on them anyways. It might not be ideal, but I think it is realistic in the absence of more patrollers. The alternative is requesting full protection, like what happened with LeBron James earlier, which IMO is the worst outcome.—Bagumba (talk) 23:34, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with Bagumba 100%. I think it covers our bases while properly documenting the current contract status with the disclaimer template and the qualified text. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:43, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Let's not discuss the text in the body for now, as rarely do drive-by editors add anything there anyways. It's usually just the infobox and team in the lead sentence that gets updated. My proposal, given the limited editors on this WikiProject that are available to enforce WP:V and WP:CRYSTAL, is to let the lead/infobox be updated if some involved party (not anonymous source) is directly quoted as having reached agreement to a contract. None of us has to add it, but we don't need to spend time reverting it constantly. We can put {{current sports transaction}} on the page, and put in the body that it is an "agreement", but all articles have a general disclaimer on them anyways. It might not be ideal, but I think it is realistic in the absence of more patrollers. The alternative is requesting full protection, like what happened with LeBron James earlier, which IMO is the worst outcome.—Bagumba (talk) 23:34, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- I agree but I still don't like it. Seeing Cleveland Cavaliers on James Jones and Mike Miller just looks off to me. And without bulk in the body, it looks off too. Is this the first time this WikiProject has had this "agreed/official" discussion? In previous years, have we ever given into adding a new team before it was officially announced? I only remember Zagalejo giving in to re-adding a free agent's team before it was announced when the player was staying with their original team. Will this be how we do it not just this year, but following years to come? DaHuzyBru (talk) 06:15, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe I'm missing something here, but what is the motivation for making a distinction between players re-signing vs players leaving for another team? Technically speaking, they need to sign contracts in either case. Why should they be treated differently?—Bagumba (talk) 06:22, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- No doubt! They shouldn't be treated differently, I was just going with that. So with Mo Williams reported agreeing to sign with the Timberwolves today, should the recent edit to him just be left? Is that what we are going with? DaHuzyBru (talk) 06:28, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Looks like his agency announced the decision. I think it's difficult to argue that this is not "official enough", and insist that a press release or press conference needs to take place, especially for non-regular editors. While it's fair to revert if a change is unsourced, which technically this change is, I believe it's a losing battle if we actually know of or find—or if the editor includes—a source where a named person announced their intention to join a team. I'm OK with allowing it to save us some time from endless reverts and freeing us up for more productive edits that will be less likely contested. Again, I don't think I'll be adding many of these announcements, I just won't be spending time reverting it if I know the announcement exists.—Bagumba (talk) 06:56, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Fair enough, Bagumba. I shall do the same. Thanks for your input. DaHuzyBru (talk) 07:26, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Looks like his agency announced the decision. I think it's difficult to argue that this is not "official enough", and insist that a press release or press conference needs to take place, especially for non-regular editors. While it's fair to revert if a change is unsourced, which technically this change is, I believe it's a losing battle if we actually know of or find—or if the editor includes—a source where a named person announced their intention to join a team. I'm OK with allowing it to save us some time from endless reverts and freeing us up for more productive edits that will be less likely contested. Again, I don't think I'll be adding many of these announcements, I just won't be spending time reverting it if I know the announcement exists.—Bagumba (talk) 06:56, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- When I was actively editing these articles, I went through a lot of mental gymnastics to make sense of certain things. If a player was expected to re-sign with his old team - especially if it was someone like Tim Duncan who had been with the same team for years - I figured it was easier to just leave things alone, rather than trying to reword a zillion things throughout the article. I know that's not super consistent, but I had to set some limits for myself; otherwise I'd drive myself crazy. Anyway, you guys can hammer out a system that works for you. I don't think there's ever going to be a perfect solution. Zagalejo^^^ 23:33, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- No doubt! They shouldn't be treated differently, I was just going with that. So with Mo Williams reported agreeing to sign with the Timberwolves today, should the recent edit to him just be left? Is that what we are going with? DaHuzyBru (talk) 06:28, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe I'm missing something here, but what is the motivation for making a distinction between players re-signing vs players leaving for another team? Technically speaking, they need to sign contracts in either case. Why should they be treated differently?—Bagumba (talk) 06:22, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- So with this "agreeing to terms" proposal, are you saying update everything as per usual (infobox, lead, current roster template etc) but instead do "On July 28, 2014, X agreed to terms with Y" and then when officially announced then change it to "On July 29, 2014, X signed with Y"? Bare in mind, this may be difficult for some to comprehend and could become confusing. DaHuzyBru (talk) 10:41, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Would you be OK with something like "agreeing to terms" confirmed by a named rep of the player or team e.g. not "according to sources"? I think most reputable sites I've noticed this year are clear to say they've reached an agreement, and don't actually say they've signed until the team's press release.—Bagumba (talk) 07:14, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Personally I'd be OK with a truly reliable source (major paper or sports site) specifically reporting a signing (as opposed to "reportly will sign" and not including summer league "signings"). I do think it is important that a signing is confirmed in the report, as the rumored signings often don't pan out. Rikster2 (talk) 05:36, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I have one question about this. If a player agrees to terms with a team (for example Cartier Martin and the Pistons), can something about it be added to the body section? Something along the lines of, "On July 1, 2014, Martin agreed to terms with the Pistons, but has yet to sign an official contract." Something like that, but keep the infobox as saying "Free Agent". Thoughts? miamiheat631 talk 07:15, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- MH631, as long as you can add a WP:RS reliable source footnote to the example text, I not only think that's appropriate, but the best course of action. FYI, "Free agent" in the infoboxes, per MOS:CAPS, should be capitalized like Wikipedia headers: only the first word is capitalized unless it's a proper noun. Cheers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 12:22, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Totally agree. Thanks. miamiheat631 talk 08:53, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
Removing support for NBA.com historical player profiles
The previous discussion link at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association/Archive_23#Infobox_basketball_biography_needs_update_to_historical_profiles_link didn't generate any ideas for transforming IDs to NBA.com's new format for retired players. Since the links as currently coded don't work, I've deprecated the previous "nba_historical" parameter to {{Basketballstats}}. If there is enough interest that people want to manually add the new urls to bios, I'd suggest that the new format be added into Basketballstats, instead of adding an EL on a separate line. However, since NBA.com is notorious for mucking around with url and not redirecting them, I'd suggest just living with basketball-reference.com and saving a lot of rework over time.—Bagumba (talk) 08:24, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Philadelphia 76ers numbers
There has been a lot of activity around Joel Embiid's number with the Sixers. The official site doesn't list numbers and some editors are adding the number 11 to Embiid's article - and in fact, the Sixers are selling a Joel Embiid #11 jersey (see here) with no disclaimer that the number is not official. The issue has been that fellow rookie K. J. McDaniels wore #11 for the Sixers in Summer League (see picture), so other editors insist that Embiid can't be #11. I recommend that the Embiid article be protected and a number left off until it officially posts on the Sixers' site (which is incredibly slow to update btw) and that the number be removed from McDaniels' article too for the same duration. Not sure what the Sixres' intention is but the franchise itself is sending mixed messages. Rikster2 (talk) 17:53, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- I've left a note at Talk:Joel Embiid to come here. Hopefully we can avoid protecting everyone from editing.—Bagumba (talk) 18:31, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Jewels30: My thing here is that at the NBA Official Rookie Photo Shoot, Embiid was pictured wearing a #11 76ers jersey and McDaniels was pictured wearing a #14 76ers jersey. I know that on the NBA.com website nothing is listed but I think this is evidence enough to change Embiid's number to 11 and McDaniels number to 14. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jewels30 (talk • contribs) 22:35, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Honestly, I feel pretty good about Embiid as #11 since the Sixers are selling that jersey to the public. I'd prefer to see something more than the rookie photo shoot for McDaniels, though. Honestly, I hate number controversies and just wanted to stop the warring over it. Rikster2 (talk) 00:40, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- The rookie photo shoots apparently took place today - [6], [7] - so I would say they reflect the most recent state of affairs. I don't know why McDaniels wore 11 in the summer league, but I think it's safe to say Embiid will be wearing that number in the regular season. Zagalejo^^^ 01:22, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Honestly, I feel pretty good about Embiid as #11 since the Sixers are selling that jersey to the public. I'd prefer to see something more than the rookie photo shoot for McDaniels, though. Honestly, I hate number controversies and just wanted to stop the warring over it. Rikster2 (talk) 00:40, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Help with edit
Does anyone have access to NYC birth certificate records or death records? Check out this edit. I'm not sure whether to AGF it or to revert due to WP:V. Jrcla2 (talk) 20:29, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Pacers numbers
I know something almost exactly like this was discussed above, but a user insists on putting Solomon Hill's number as 44 and Damjan Rudez's as 9. The Pacers roster doesn't confirm this, nor do the player files. He gives the Pacers team store as a source but I don't know if that is reliable enough. A few years back, I changed some numbers on a Hawks roster template but they turned out to be completely wrong. If I'm being unreasonable here, feel free to tell me, but I just think we should wait for the season to start or an official announcement from the team. Thoughts? Miamiheat631 (talk) 22:42, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
- This news article says that Solomon Hill is switching to 44. No idea about Rudez's number though. — MT (talk) 00:40, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
George Banks
FYI George Banks (basketball) was recently created. I filled out his club histories to the best I could and added categories, but as of right now it's a one-sentence stub that could use expanding, if anyone feels inclined. Thanks! Jrcla2 (talk) 15:06, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Standard for listing british nationalities
On the page Toronto Raptors all-time roster we have Robert Archibald listed as from Scotland, but Pops Mensah-Bonsu as from the UK (who is from England) and they both played for team Great Britain internationally. What (if any) is the standard for listing these player's nationality?18abruce (talk) 15:00, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Team GB is in a state of flux. Some home nations joined a united Team GB but one begged off (I forgot who begged off and who joined). –HTD 15:08, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Well team GB was only formed for the Olympics and may be disbanded after failing to qualify for 2015 eurobasket, the teams at least had Scottish and Enlish players on them. However as far as listing the nationality for NBA players is seems puzzling that Scottish players would be listed as Scottish and English players listed as UK. Because of the small sample size this may not have come up before but I was hopefull that there was a discussed standard.18abruce (talk) 16:15, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- I can't find it now, but England and Wales are staying as "Team GB", Scotland didn't join them, and Northern Irish are free to join either "GB" (England+Wales), Ireland (I dunno if they can join Scotland). I dunno which name the "new Team GB" would go without Scotland, though, but the best bet is that they're sticking with "Great Britain". So it seems that the solution is for Scotland players to use "Scotland", those from England and Wales as "Great Britain", and Northern Irish players, well, I dunno about them. –HTD 17:44, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Actually it was Wales who has refused the intention to cease being a FIBA member, Scotland signed off according to the citation on the team Wales page (which is now a broken link). Scotland still competes but that will cease in 2016, the GB national team currently contains 2 Scottish and 8 English players (by birth).18abruce (talk) 18:25, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- So basically what I said but replace Wales with Scotland... still dunno what to do with Northern Irish players though. –HTD 19:33, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Actually it was Wales who has refused the intention to cease being a FIBA member, Scotland signed off according to the citation on the team Wales page (which is now a broken link). Scotland still competes but that will cease in 2016, the GB national team currently contains 2 Scottish and 8 English players (by birth).18abruce (talk) 18:25, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- I can't find it now, but England and Wales are staying as "Team GB", Scotland didn't join them, and Northern Irish are free to join either "GB" (England+Wales), Ireland (I dunno if they can join Scotland). I dunno which name the "new Team GB" would go without Scotland, though, but the best bet is that they're sticking with "Great Britain". So it seems that the solution is for Scotland players to use "Scotland", those from England and Wales as "Great Britain", and Northern Irish players, well, I dunno about them. –HTD 17:44, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Well team GB was only formed for the Olympics and may be disbanded after failing to qualify for 2015 eurobasket, the teams at least had Scottish and Enlish players on them. However as far as listing the nationality for NBA players is seems puzzling that Scottish players would be listed as Scottish and English players listed as UK. Because of the small sample size this may not have come up before but I was hopefull that there was a discussed standard.18abruce (talk) 16:15, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- The list is problematic in that "Nationality" as presented is overloaded and ambiguous. Does it represent the player's citizenship, i.e. is dual citizenship handled, or does it represent national team affiliation. See Dallas Mavericks all-time roster and statistics leaders as one example of how to address this.—Bagumba (talk) 18:04, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Conference championships in infoboxes
Recently, Special:Contributions/Vineelsai added the conference championships attained by certain players and coaches to their infoboxes. I think that these should not be included in the infoboxes, as there is enough clutter as is. I thought that there should be a discussion about it. What are others' thoughts on the matter? - Hoops gza (talk) 01:54, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
- Agree that it is clutter for the infobox. Current consensus for items to list in an infobox is at Wikipedia:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association/Article_guidelines#Infobox_highlights.—Bagumba (talk) 02:06, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
- It's clutter. A conference championship is second place. Second place doesn't go in the infobox. Rikster2 (talk) 11:22, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Standard for listing british nationalities
On the page Toronto Raptors all-time roster we have Robert Archibald listed as from Scotland, but Pops Mensah-Bonsu as from the UK (who is from England) and they both played for team Great Britain internationally. What (if any) is the standard for listing these player's nationality?18abruce (talk) 15:00, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Team GB is in a state of flux. Some home nations joined a united Team GB but one begged off (I forgot who begged off and who joined). –HTD 15:08, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Well team GB was only formed for the Olympics and may be disbanded after failing to qualify for 2015 eurobasket, the teams at least had Scottish and Enlish players on them. However as far as listing the nationality for NBA players is seems puzzling that Scottish players would be listed as Scottish and English players listed as UK. Because of the small sample size this may not have come up before but I was hopefull that there was a discussed standard.18abruce (talk) 16:15, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- I can't find it now, but England and Wales are staying as "Team GB", Scotland didn't join them, and Northern Irish are free to join either "GB" (England+Wales), Ireland (I dunno if they can join Scotland). I dunno which name the "new Team GB" would go without Scotland, though, but the best bet is that they're sticking with "Great Britain". So it seems that the solution is for Scotland players to use "Scotland", those from England and Wales as "Great Britain", and Northern Irish players, well, I dunno about them. –HTD 17:44, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Actually it was Wales who has refused the intention to cease being a FIBA member, Scotland signed off according to the citation on the team Wales page (which is now a broken link). Scotland still competes but that will cease in 2016, the GB national team currently contains 2 Scottish and 8 English players (by birth).18abruce (talk) 18:25, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- So basically what I said but replace Wales with Scotland... still dunno what to do with Northern Irish players though. –HTD 19:33, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Actually it was Wales who has refused the intention to cease being a FIBA member, Scotland signed off according to the citation on the team Wales page (which is now a broken link). Scotland still competes but that will cease in 2016, the GB national team currently contains 2 Scottish and 8 English players (by birth).18abruce (talk) 18:25, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- I can't find it now, but England and Wales are staying as "Team GB", Scotland didn't join them, and Northern Irish are free to join either "GB" (England+Wales), Ireland (I dunno if they can join Scotland). I dunno which name the "new Team GB" would go without Scotland, though, but the best bet is that they're sticking with "Great Britain". So it seems that the solution is for Scotland players to use "Scotland", those from England and Wales as "Great Britain", and Northern Irish players, well, I dunno about them. –HTD 17:44, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Well team GB was only formed for the Olympics and may be disbanded after failing to qualify for 2015 eurobasket, the teams at least had Scottish and Enlish players on them. However as far as listing the nationality for NBA players is seems puzzling that Scottish players would be listed as Scottish and English players listed as UK. Because of the small sample size this may not have come up before but I was hopefull that there was a discussed standard.18abruce (talk) 16:15, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- The list is problematic in that "Nationality" as presented is overloaded and ambiguous. Does it represent the player's citizenship, i.e. is dual citizenship handled, or does it represent national team affiliation. See Dallas Mavericks all-time roster and statistics leaders as one example of how to address this.—Bagumba (talk) 18:04, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Conference championships in infoboxes
Recently, Special:Contributions/Vineelsai added the conference championships attained by certain players and coaches to their infoboxes. I think that these should not be included in the infoboxes, as there is enough clutter as is. I thought that there should be a discussion about it. What are others' thoughts on the matter? - Hoops gza (talk) 01:54, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
- Agree that it is clutter for the infobox. Current consensus for items to list in an infobox is at Wikipedia:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association/Article_guidelines#Infobox_highlights.—Bagumba (talk) 02:06, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
- It's clutter. A conference championship is second place. Second place doesn't go in the infobox. Rikster2 (talk) 11:22, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Standard for listing british nationalities
On the page Toronto Raptors all-time roster we have Robert Archibald listed as from Scotland, but Pops Mensah-Bonsu as from the UK (who is from England) and they both played for team Great Britain internationally. What (if any) is the standard for listing these player's nationality?18abruce (talk) 15:00, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Team GB is in a state of flux. Some home nations joined a united Team GB but one begged off (I forgot who begged off and who joined). –HTD 15:08, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Well team GB was only formed for the Olympics and may be disbanded after failing to qualify for 2015 eurobasket, the teams at least had Scottish and Enlish players on them. However as far as listing the nationality for NBA players is seems puzzling that Scottish players would be listed as Scottish and English players listed as UK. Because of the small sample size this may not have come up before but I was hopefull that there was a discussed standard.18abruce (talk) 16:15, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- I can't find it now, but England and Wales are staying as "Team GB", Scotland didn't join them, and Northern Irish are free to join either "GB" (England+Wales), Ireland (I dunno if they can join Scotland). I dunno which name the "new Team GB" would go without Scotland, though, but the best bet is that they're sticking with "Great Britain". So it seems that the solution is for Scotland players to use "Scotland", those from England and Wales as "Great Britain", and Northern Irish players, well, I dunno about them. –HTD 17:44, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Actually it was Wales who has refused the intention to cease being a FIBA member, Scotland signed off according to the citation on the team Wales page (which is now a broken link). Scotland still competes but that will cease in 2016, the GB national team currently contains 2 Scottish and 8 English players (by birth).18abruce (talk) 18:25, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- So basically what I said but replace Wales with Scotland... still dunno what to do with Northern Irish players though. –HTD 19:33, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Actually it was Wales who has refused the intention to cease being a FIBA member, Scotland signed off according to the citation on the team Wales page (which is now a broken link). Scotland still competes but that will cease in 2016, the GB national team currently contains 2 Scottish and 8 English players (by birth).18abruce (talk) 18:25, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- I can't find it now, but England and Wales are staying as "Team GB", Scotland didn't join them, and Northern Irish are free to join either "GB" (England+Wales), Ireland (I dunno if they can join Scotland). I dunno which name the "new Team GB" would go without Scotland, though, but the best bet is that they're sticking with "Great Britain". So it seems that the solution is for Scotland players to use "Scotland", those from England and Wales as "Great Britain", and Northern Irish players, well, I dunno about them. –HTD 17:44, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Well team GB was only formed for the Olympics and may be disbanded after failing to qualify for 2015 eurobasket, the teams at least had Scottish and Enlish players on them. However as far as listing the nationality for NBA players is seems puzzling that Scottish players would be listed as Scottish and English players listed as UK. Because of the small sample size this may not have come up before but I was hopefull that there was a discussed standard.18abruce (talk) 16:15, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- The list is problematic in that "Nationality" as presented is overloaded and ambiguous. Does it represent the player's citizenship, i.e. is dual citizenship handled, or does it represent national team affiliation. See Dallas Mavericks all-time roster and statistics leaders as one example of how to address this.—Bagumba (talk) 18:04, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Conference championships in infoboxes
Recently, Special:Contributions/Vineelsai added the conference championships attained by certain players and coaches to their infoboxes. I think that these should not be included in the infoboxes, as there is enough clutter as is. I thought that there should be a discussion about it. What are others' thoughts on the matter? - Hoops gza (talk) 01:54, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
- Agree that it is clutter for the infobox. Current consensus for items to list in an infobox is at Wikipedia:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association/Article_guidelines#Infobox_highlights.—Bagumba (talk) 02:06, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
- It's clutter. A conference championship is second place. Second place doesn't go in the infobox. Rikster2 (talk) 11:22, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Standard for listing british nationalities
On the page Toronto Raptors all-time roster we have Robert Archibald listed as from Scotland, but Pops Mensah-Bonsu as from the UK (who is from England) and they both played for team Great Britain internationally. What (if any) is the standard for listing these player's nationality?18abruce (talk) 15:00, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Team GB is in a state of flux. Some home nations joined a united Team GB but one begged off (I forgot who begged off and who joined). –HTD 15:08, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Well team GB was only formed for the Olympics and may be disbanded after failing to qualify for 2015 eurobasket, the teams at least had Scottish and Enlish players on them. However as far as listing the nationality for NBA players is seems puzzling that Scottish players would be listed as Scottish and English players listed as UK. Because of the small sample size this may not have come up before but I was hopefull that there was a discussed standard.18abruce (talk) 16:15, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- I can't find it now, but England and Wales are staying as "Team GB", Scotland didn't join them, and Northern Irish are free to join either "GB" (England+Wales), Ireland (I dunno if they can join Scotland). I dunno which name the "new Team GB" would go without Scotland, though, but the best bet is that they're sticking with "Great Britain". So it seems that the solution is for Scotland players to use "Scotland", those from England and Wales as "Great Britain", and Northern Irish players, well, I dunno about them. –HTD 17:44, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Actually it was Wales who has refused the intention to cease being a FIBA member, Scotland signed off according to the citation on the team Wales page (which is now a broken link). Scotland still competes but that will cease in 2016, the GB national team currently contains 2 Scottish and 8 English players (by birth).18abruce (talk) 18:25, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- So basically what I said but replace Wales with Scotland... still dunno what to do with Northern Irish players though. –HTD 19:33, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Actually it was Wales who has refused the intention to cease being a FIBA member, Scotland signed off according to the citation on the team Wales page (which is now a broken link). Scotland still competes but that will cease in 2016, the GB national team currently contains 2 Scottish and 8 English players (by birth).18abruce (talk) 18:25, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- I can't find it now, but England and Wales are staying as "Team GB", Scotland didn't join them, and Northern Irish are free to join either "GB" (England+Wales), Ireland (I dunno if they can join Scotland). I dunno which name the "new Team GB" would go without Scotland, though, but the best bet is that they're sticking with "Great Britain". So it seems that the solution is for Scotland players to use "Scotland", those from England and Wales as "Great Britain", and Northern Irish players, well, I dunno about them. –HTD 17:44, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Well team GB was only formed for the Olympics and may be disbanded after failing to qualify for 2015 eurobasket, the teams at least had Scottish and Enlish players on them. However as far as listing the nationality for NBA players is seems puzzling that Scottish players would be listed as Scottish and English players listed as UK. Because of the small sample size this may not have come up before but I was hopefull that there was a discussed standard.18abruce (talk) 16:15, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- The list is problematic in that "Nationality" as presented is overloaded and ambiguous. Does it represent the player's citizenship, i.e. is dual citizenship handled, or does it represent national team affiliation. See Dallas Mavericks all-time roster and statistics leaders as one example of how to address this.—Bagumba (talk) 18:04, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Conference championships in infoboxes
Recently, Special:Contributions/Vineelsai added the conference championships attained by certain players and coaches to their infoboxes. I think that these should not be included in the infoboxes, as there is enough clutter as is. I thought that there should be a discussion about it. What are others' thoughts on the matter? - Hoops gza (talk) 01:54, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
- Agree that it is clutter for the infobox. Current consensus for items to list in an infobox is at Wikipedia:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association/Article_guidelines#Infobox_highlights.—Bagumba (talk) 02:06, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
- It's clutter. A conference championship is second place. Second place doesn't go in the infobox. Rikster2 (talk) 11:22, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Standard for listing british nationalities
On the page Toronto Raptors all-time roster we have Robert Archibald listed as from Scotland, but Pops Mensah-Bonsu as from the UK (who is from England) and they both played for team Great Britain internationally. What (if any) is the standard for listing these player's nationality?18abruce (talk) 15:00, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Team GB is in a state of flux. Some home nations joined a united Team GB but one begged off (I forgot who begged off and who joined). –HTD 15:08, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Well team GB was only formed for the Olympics and may be disbanded after failing to qualify for 2015 eurobasket, the teams at least had Scottish and Enlish players on them. However as far as listing the nationality for NBA players is seems puzzling that Scottish players would be listed as Scottish and English players listed as UK. Because of the small sample size this may not have come up before but I was hopefull that there was a discussed standard.18abruce (talk) 16:15, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- I can't find it now, but England and Wales are staying as "Team GB", Scotland didn't join them, and Northern Irish are free to join either "GB" (England+Wales), Ireland (I dunno if they can join Scotland). I dunno which name the "new Team GB" would go without Scotland, though, but the best bet is that they're sticking with "Great Britain". So it seems that the solution is for Scotland players to use "Scotland", those from England and Wales as "Great Britain", and Northern Irish players, well, I dunno about them. –HTD 17:44, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Actually it was Wales who has refused the intention to cease being a FIBA member, Scotland signed off according to the citation on the team Wales page (which is now a broken link). Scotland still competes but that will cease in 2016, the GB national team currently contains 2 Scottish and 8 English players (by birth).18abruce (talk) 18:25, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- So basically what I said but replace Wales with Scotland... still dunno what to do with Northern Irish players though. –HTD 19:33, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Actually it was Wales who has refused the intention to cease being a FIBA member, Scotland signed off according to the citation on the team Wales page (which is now a broken link). Scotland still competes but that will cease in 2016, the GB national team currently contains 2 Scottish and 8 English players (by birth).18abruce (talk) 18:25, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- I can't find it now, but England and Wales are staying as "Team GB", Scotland didn't join them, and Northern Irish are free to join either "GB" (England+Wales), Ireland (I dunno if they can join Scotland). I dunno which name the "new Team GB" would go without Scotland, though, but the best bet is that they're sticking with "Great Britain". So it seems that the solution is for Scotland players to use "Scotland", those from England and Wales as "Great Britain", and Northern Irish players, well, I dunno about them. –HTD 17:44, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Well team GB was only formed for the Olympics and may be disbanded after failing to qualify for 2015 eurobasket, the teams at least had Scottish and Enlish players on them. However as far as listing the nationality for NBA players is seems puzzling that Scottish players would be listed as Scottish and English players listed as UK. Because of the small sample size this may not have come up before but I was hopefull that there was a discussed standard.18abruce (talk) 16:15, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- The list is problematic in that "Nationality" as presented is overloaded and ambiguous. Does it represent the player's citizenship, i.e. is dual citizenship handled, or does it represent national team affiliation. See Dallas Mavericks all-time roster and statistics leaders as one example of how to address this.—Bagumba (talk) 18:04, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Conference championships in infoboxes
Recently, Special:Contributions/Vineelsai added the conference championships attained by certain players and coaches to their infoboxes. I think that these should not be included in the infoboxes, as there is enough clutter as is. I thought that there should be a discussion about it. What are others' thoughts on the matter? - Hoops gza (talk) 01:54, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
- Agree that it is clutter for the infobox. Current consensus for items to list in an infobox is at Wikipedia:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association/Article_guidelines#Infobox_highlights.—Bagumba (talk) 02:06, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
- It's clutter. A conference championship is second place. Second place doesn't go in the infobox. Rikster2 (talk) 11:22, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Fun With Contracts, part II: Training Camp
As players are invited to training camp, we have now hit the second phase of premature transactions - adding teams to club history, team colors, etc. for these guys. Just a reminder that like Summer League participants, these folks have not made the rosters of these teams. I probably have limits for how much I want to police this, but it is that season again so I thought I would note it. As always, player categories should never be added until the player appears in a game Rikster2 (talk) 15:16, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
- With this time of the year and all these reports coming out about who's attending what training camp, it's going to be tough to keep all rumored players' article under rap i.e. with Casey Prather, I reverted an addition, but the IP was persistent, so with cases like that, I think just let it go. I'll do my best, but if I get reverted, I'm just going to leave it and change it up once officially training camp signings are announced in late September. DaHuzyBru (talk) 17:39, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
- They haven't made the Official opening day NBA roster, but at some point, they will eventually be listed, such as Casey Prather will be listed when the team officially signs him. Just like Aaron Craft, James Michael McAdoo, and Mitchell Watt today (9/2/14), all of the players "invited to training camp" will eventually get signed, so I think it is completely fair to add the team to the infobox after the signing, regardless of whether the player has played a game or not. Miamiheat631 (talk) 01:50, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
- If the team announces the signing (and they usually don't reveal terms) and/or lists them on their roster, I have no issue with adding them. This is true of McAdoo, etc who were announced by the W's on their official site. This is not true of Prather. There is a line between rumor and reality. Rikster2 (talk) 01:54, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
- They haven't made the Official opening day NBA roster, but at some point, they will eventually be listed, such as Casey Prather will be listed when the team officially signs him. Just like Aaron Craft, James Michael McAdoo, and Mitchell Watt today (9/2/14), all of the players "invited to training camp" will eventually get signed, so I think it is completely fair to add the team to the infobox after the signing, regardless of whether the player has played a game or not. Miamiheat631 (talk) 01:50, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
Miamiheat631, we have been over this type of thing before with the Steve Novak-Diante Garrett trade. It's not a done deal until the team announces it. See here, this reports that Prather has agreed to a non-guaranteed deal with the Suns, but until the Suns officially announce the signing via a press release (similar to this one by the Warriors), he is not a Sun and therefore we do not add this to his article – it is misleading and incorrect. The majority of teams announce their training camp signings in late September i.e. Sep 27–30, so until then, we wait. DaHuzyBru (talk) 16:09, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
- When did I ever say Prather should be listed? I said he shouldn't until the team officially signs him, which has not happened yet. I agree that Prather shouldn't be listed as a Sun. That was my point all along. Miamiheat631 (talk) 20:29, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
Sacramento Kings seasons navbox?
Can someone clarify why both Template:Cincinnati Royals seasons AND Template:Sacramento Kings seasons exist? It appears to me that the Sacramento Kings share the history of these franchises going all the way back to 1945–46 (see List of Sacramento Kings seasons, which has all of them listed). Should those 2 navboxes be condensed into just Template:Sacramento Kings seasons? Jrcla2 (talk) 16:03, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
- ...Anyone? Jrcla2 (talk) 12:31, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
- Should definitely be just a Kings seasons box in my opinion. Rikster2 (talk) 14:59, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
- Should be merged into one navbox. A few years ago I've drafted a new way to handle franchise move/relocation. The discussion can be found here and the some of the navboxes can be found in my sandbox. If you're interested to continue my work, maybe these new navboxes can be implemented on all teams. — MT (talk) 16:53, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
I'll (attempt to) merge the Kings and Royals navboxes, but any others I'll leave for whomever to do. Thanks. Jrcla2 (talk) 19:12, 11 September 2014 (UTC)Forget it. I just spent a half hour trying to figure out how to format the Kings navbox to make it look like the "Pistons by location" sample and couldn't get past how to sub-group. Screw it, not worth my time. I'll leave the confusing navboxes as is and let someone else do it. Jrcla2 (talk) 19:44, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
- I agree that they're very confusing. I don't even remember why and how I did that. Anyway, the Sacramento Kings template are already there to be used. I've merged the Royals/Kings navbox into one navbox, but I don't think I have the time to do all the other teams. — MT (talk) 17:54, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
Oklahoma City NBA Development League Team
Can an administrator do a histmerge for Tulsa 66ers and Oklahoma City NBA Development League Team? EvoPitz appeared to have performed a copy/paste move. Same applies to the team rosters. Zappa24Mati 23:20, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
- Looks like Oklahoma City NBA Development League Team currently redirects to Tulsa 66ers. I warned the editor about cut&pasting. In the future, you can also use {{Histmerge}} to request a history merge.—Bagumba (talk) 00:37, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
Let's get this settled about LeBron
I can see warring going on over the line McDonald's All-American Game MVP (2003) in LeBron James' infobox. T23tran has removed it a couple of times. PRwrestlinganalyst has added it a couple of times. I have even reverted on this issue. What is the consensus?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:26, 22 September 2014 (UTC)"
- I'm fine with leaving it. I just saw Kevin Durant didn't have that listed but I added it. (T23tran (talk) 03:26, 23 September 2014 (UTC))
Comment on the WikiProject X proposal
Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
Jersey numbers
You are invited to join a discussion on the listing of jersey numbers in former players' infoboxes at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Basketball#Jersey_numbers_for_retired_players.—Bagumba (talk) 01:17, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Draft picks who never play
If someone is selected in the NBA draft, but never plays a game, are they within the scope of this project? These players are already included in Category:National Basketball Association draft picks.—Bagumba (talk) 16:43, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
- Do you mean never plays a game in the NBA or NBA DL? Never plays a game as a professional? The first name that comes to mind for me of the former type is Deshaun Thomas. I think almost any American player who has been drafted in the internet era (c.1997 to present) would pass a WP:GNG and deserves an article. I don't think the article really needs an NBA tag on it for the draft.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:27, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
- I was inquiring about drafted players who never play in the NBA. Thanks.—Bagumba (talk) 19:34, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
- FYI: There was weak consensus at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association/Archive_24#Tagging_D-League_players that pure D-League players are not within the scope of this project. Also, I noticed that User:Rikster2 had opined there that "NBA draftees aren't covered under the project unless they play in the league."—Bagumba (talk) 19:40, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
- why would draftees who never play in the league be worked by this project? If they played college or non-nba pro ball they'd be covered by WP:BB and/or WP:CBB. If we count draftees we need to go back and tag hundreds of guys drafted when the NBA draft was 10-15 rounds. I see no reason why this project would want responsibility for working articles of guys whose omly claim to the NBA is appearing on a draft list and going to training camp. They aten't NBA players. Rikster2 (talk) 01:03, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
- Makes sense. I only wondered because of the draft pick category.—Bagumba (talk) 01:37, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
- why would draftees who never play in the league be worked by this project? If they played college or non-nba pro ball they'd be covered by WP:BB and/or WP:CBB. If we count draftees we need to go back and tag hundreds of guys drafted when the NBA draft was 10-15 rounds. I see no reason why this project would want responsibility for working articles of guys whose omly claim to the NBA is appearing on a draft list and going to training camp. They aten't NBA players. Rikster2 (talk) 01:03, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
Stats tables
There should be somewhere for people to list players who need stat tables. I know there are a lot of people who are extremely efficient at producing NBA/NBADL stat tables and I am not. Thus, I request assistance on the following articles:
Help appreciated.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:37, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
"First Team" vs. "first team"
All - I want to get some measure of consensus around how all-league, all-conference, etc. is formatted. I believe that the convention of listing membership on one of the All-NBA, NBA All-Rookie, etc. teams as "All-NBA First Team" started with WP:NBA. I have a couple of issues with this practice. First, "first team" probably shouldn't be capitalized. It's not a title. Second, people are starting to take the convention to carry over to college awards, other pro league awards, etc. While "All-NBA first team" may be the correct form, "All-ACC first team" isn't. The (much) more common way of phrasing this would be "first team All-ACC." But I get the POV of trying to make it consistent. Personally, I think the form you'd see it in "real life" is what Wikipedia should reflect. Thoughts? Rikster2 (talk) 16:41, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
- Rik, I looked at this when you and I discussed it a couple of months back. The usual college way of formatting All-X honors is "first-team All-Big Ten" or "second-team All-SEC," and we are trying to uniformly impose that format on college football and NFL player infoboxes. (It is a constant battle to maintain, however, at least in part because some editors prefer the format used by WP:NBA.) On the other hand, the NBA typically formats its All-X honors like "All-NBA First Team," etc. Frankly, I prefer the college way, not least because I can use it uniformly for all college sports articles and the NFL. Given the NBA and the media's formatting of All-NBA honors, I don't have an easy solution. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:50, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
- It's just a thing for me, but in the infobox, I use capitalization (i.e. All-ACC First Team) but in the body, I use lower case (i.e. All-ACC first team). Now, me not being fully accustomed to college euphemisms, I am not going to argue with making college (in the infobox) "First team All-ACC" and/or "First-team All-ACC" but I think when used in the body, writing "he was named to the All-ACC first team" reads more fluently to me than "he was named to the first team All-ACC". Also, I think keeping awards such as the NBA's all-teams should stay as "All-NBA First Team" in the infobox, purely based on that's how the NBA presents them – and many other league as well. DaHuzyBru (talk) 17:03, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
- DaHuzyBru, the punctuation follows the order: when you write "first-team All-American," "All-American" is the noun and "first-team" is modifying adjectival phrase. When you right "All-NBA First Team," "First Team" is the noun phrase, and "All-NBA" is the adjectival phrase. In text, you would not write "he was named to the first-team All-ACC"; instead, you would say "he was a first-team All-ACC selection," "he received first-team All-ACC honors," or "he was named to the All-ACC first team." All three examples are correct in text; the question is what are we going to use for the uniformly formatted infobox honors? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:12, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
- It's just a thing for me, but in the infobox, I use capitalization (i.e. All-ACC First Team) but in the body, I use lower case (i.e. All-ACC first team). Now, me not being fully accustomed to college euphemisms, I am not going to argue with making college (in the infobox) "First team All-ACC" and/or "First-team All-ACC" but I think when used in the body, writing "he was named to the All-ACC first team" reads more fluently to me than "he was named to the first team All-ACC". Also, I think keeping awards such as the NBA's all-teams should stay as "All-NBA First Team" in the infobox, purely based on that's how the NBA presents them – and many other league as well. DaHuzyBru (talk) 17:03, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
- My gut instinct is All-NBA First Team is the more common form. Additionally, all-nba first team get's 17,000 hits in Google Books vs 3,000 for first-team all-nba". I think it's usually usually treated as a proper noun with all caps, but I suppose this could go the way of the drama with NBA Draft vs NBA draft.—Bagumba (talk) 18:38, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
- Based on this article and others, the NBA may indeed say "All-NBA First Team" (with caps). However, based on this article and others, I am not sure the capitalization is universally adopted by the media. And, yes, the "NBA draft" example is a good one because the NBA pretty much always capitalizes "draft," and we all know how that turned out. I stand by my point that it is pretty dang rare for anyone to say "All-SEC first team" instead of "first team All-SEC" though. Rikster2 (talk) 20:16, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
- I don't think we necessarily need to conform between college and pro honors, but I realize that some drive-by editors will edit them to be consistent. For All-Pac-12, I see that the Los Angeles Times mostly goes with All-Pac-12 first team but sometimes uses "first team All-Pac-12" as well.—Bagumba (talk) 20:29, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
- Am I looking at this wrong? When I search the exact phrase "all Pac 12 first team" (with quotes), I get 3 hits. When I search "first team all Pac 12" I get 9 hits. Not many data points, but I don't see a clear preference to list the conference first. When I search "all Pac 12 first team" with no quotes I get about 500 hits no matter what order I put the words. Rikster2 (talk) 01:59, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
- Search algorithms on sites are usually not as sophisticated as Google, Bing, etc. Granted it's just the Pac-12 on the LA Times , but it makes me wonder if there is consistency across conferences and across news organizations.—Bagumba (talk) 04:37, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
- Am I looking at this wrong? When I search the exact phrase "all Pac 12 first team" (with quotes), I get 3 hits. When I search "first team all Pac 12" I get 9 hits. Not many data points, but I don't see a clear preference to list the conference first. When I search "all Pac 12 first team" with no quotes I get about 500 hits no matter what order I put the words. Rikster2 (talk) 01:59, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
- I don't think we necessarily need to conform between college and pro honors, but I realize that some drive-by editors will edit them to be consistent. For All-Pac-12, I see that the Los Angeles Times mostly goes with All-Pac-12 first team but sometimes uses "first team All-Pac-12" as well.—Bagumba (talk) 20:29, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
- Based on this article and others, the NBA may indeed say "All-NBA First Team" (with caps). However, based on this article and others, I am not sure the capitalization is universally adopted by the media. And, yes, the "NBA draft" example is a good one because the NBA pretty much always capitalizes "draft," and we all know how that turned out. I stand by my point that it is pretty dang rare for anyone to say "All-SEC first team" instead of "first team All-SEC" though. Rikster2 (talk) 20:16, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
CfD - American men's basketball players
There is a discussion underway about this category. Please give your opinion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2014 October 11#American men's basketball players. This category was created about a year ago and currently has about 60 articles in it (obviously very underpopulated). I would like to see strong representation from people who actually work basketball artices (and other similarly structured sports) weigh in as this would essentially signal a new category structure to be built and implemented (50 state-specific men's and 50 state-specific women's categories). There are pros and cons to the structure, but whatever your views I would like to ensure that the decision reached is one reached by robust dialogue and careful consideration. Especially as this did not occur the last time this category was CfD'ed. Thanks. Rikster2 (talk) 17:33, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
Infobox: Honors from multiple organizations
I'd like to propose that a player's infobox generally not list the organization(s) that issue similar honors, such as All-American. I don't think the average reader needs the detail in an infobox; it can be expanded in the body, or a standalone section with an exhaustive list of awards and issuing organizations can be created. There was a similar earlier discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association/Archive_24#Infobox_stylistics. For NBA players with many pro highlights listed, the practice at Wikipedia:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association/Article_guidelines#National_player_of_the_year has been to consolidate the various player of the year honors without listing the organization.
For a current AA example, Kyle Anderson (basketball) lists AP and TSN in his infoxbox, and the information is both in the body and in a standalone list in the article.—Bagumba (talk) 20:09, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose - first, I don't really remember the consensus that made "National player of the year" the default if a player won more than one award in a year. I do remember the discussion where we discussed making the line read "consensus national player of the year" for players who won the majority of the awards in a year (I believe I provided a link to the term being used regarding Tyler Hansbrough). With respect to All-American status, it's already a concise format and makes it pretty easy to tell that people are sticking to the teams recognized by the NCAA, as opposed to "Wooden All-Americans" and bleacher Report.com All-Americans, etc. I don't think the value in space is gained to reduce the specificity that helps the reader. If someone isn't a "consensus" All-American (reasonably self-explanatory), then what kind of All-American were they? In the Kyle Anderson example, no space would be saved by stripping the teams. If we want to have a bigger conversation about trimming the honors that show in the infobox, I'm all for it. But I'd start with slam dunk contest winners, any HS honor below NPOY, statistical leadership (college and pro) and retired numbers before reducing the space used for All-American, which is defining for college players. In my opinion, this is only an issue for an extreme minority of players, and we shouldn't create the standard to the extreme minorities. Rikster2 (talk) 23:07, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
- The relevant discussions are linked in the document. Anyways, no problem if consensus has changed. As for consensus NPOY, I remember you providing the link, but I wasn't comfortable that the term was used consistently for NPOY, and nobody pursued it further. Can revisit if people want. Re: non-consensus AA, I guess I'm drawing a line for WP:IBX's "The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose." The info should be in the article, even if not in the infobox. I don't care about the alphabet soup, but could just be me. Anyways, if we want to say don't trim unless space is an issue (e.g. the line wraps), at least that would be semi-objective (wrapping varies by screen resolution) and we could use it as a guideline.—Bagumba (talk) 23:55, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
Dispute over rivalry article name
Would like to get others' opinions and avoid an edit war. User:Sportsgamaniacre has now twice moved Lakers–Clippers rivalry to Clippers–Lakers rivalry, citing personal preference for "alphabetical order". The last revert undid my change back to "Lakers–Clippers rivalry" based on WP:COMMONNAME. There are 50,000 hits for "Lakers–Clippers rivalry" versus 500 for "Clippers–Lakers rivalry". Sportsgamaniacre already used the same "alphabetize" rationale in a past RM request at Talk:Yankees–Red_Sox_rivalry#Rename_article, which failed due to COMMONNAME. I'll leave this up to consensus, but the user's warring history needs to cease, regardless of the outcome of this specific article.—Bagumba (talk) 20:39, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
- If it's 500 to 50,000 then it's a no-brainer. If this guy has a history of doing this against consensus/WP guidelines then report him. Rikster2 (talk) 23:23, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
- If someone else can move it back, it'd be crystal clear to all that this is against consensus, as opposed to just my opinion. Otherwise, I'll wait for this conversation to play out. Thanks.—Bagumba (talk) 23:41, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
- Done. Rikster2 (talk) 23:54, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
- If someone else can move it back, it'd be crystal clear to all that this is against consensus, as opposed to just my opinion. Otherwise, I'll wait for this conversation to play out. Thanks.—Bagumba (talk) 23:41, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
Basketball players from Louisville, Kentucky
You are invited to take part in a discussion about this category at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2014 October 24#Sport players from Louisville, Kentucky. Rikster2 (talk) 13:35, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
Requested page move of a stadium article with naming rights
Hi there. A recent requested page move of O.co Coliseum to Oakland Coliseum has been re-listed for another week, and thus may need input by participants here at WikiProject NBA.
At issue are WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NAMINGCRITERIA concerns that, if this move request passes, may eventually affect the naming of NBA arena articles: specifically whether to keep the current practice of renaming arena and stadium articles whenever there is a new sponsor (like renaming Rose Garden (arena) to Moda Center), or permanently keep them at long-term, stable names (like always keeping articles at, for example, the Oakland Coliseum Arena or Rose Garden (arena) titles instead of their current corporate titles) regardless of current or future changes to the naming rights. Please discuss at Talk:O.co Coliseum#Requested move 2. Thank you. Zzyzx11 (talk) 03:16, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
Expert attention
This is a notice about Category:National Basketball Association articles needing expert attention, which might be of interest to your WikiProject. It will take a while before the category is populated. Iceblock (talk) 16:36, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Trey Burke/archive1 has been open for 2 and a half weeks without any substantive commentary.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:11, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
NBA infobox biography colours
I'm just wondering how do I change them, I've been meaning to change Iowa Energy's one to one more according of their current team colours (you know, after being acquired by the Memphis Grizzlies).Intruder007 (talk) 22:05, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
- I think Module:Basketball color/data is the page that controls the infobox color schemes, although I'm hesitant to mess around those things myself. I'd recommend leaving a request at User talk:Frietjes. Zagalejo^^^ 16:26, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- just leave a clear edit request on the talk page and it will get done. Don't mess around with the template unless you know what you are doing. Rikster2 (talk) 19:24, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks! Intruder007 (talk) 20:43, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- just leave a clear edit request on the talk page and it will get done. Don't mess around with the template unless you know what you are doing. Rikster2 (talk) 19:24, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
Jersey numbers
I always wondered why there was as much (if not more) speculative edits on players' jersey numbers as there was on their joining a new team. Apparently it's more than a WP phenomena. From Rockets' beat writer Jonathan Feigen: "As expected, for those that are apparently very into this sort of thing, Josh Smith will wear No. 5, his number with the Hawks."[8]
GA Review for 2014 NBA draft
Is anyone willing to replace the nominator for 2014 NBA draft? The nominator hasn't been active for about 4 months, and it would be great for this project to get an 86th GA. Cheers! --Brandon (MrWooHoo) • Talk to Brandon! 18:20, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
- @MrWooHoo: I'm confused. It seems that you just started the review, and I don't see a previous reviewer.—Bagumba (talk) 21:02, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
- @Bagumba: I meant nominator, I changed it :)
Reliable source resources
I think it would be good to from a list of sources aside from traditional newspapers and magazines that we generally consider reliable. I'd still say that sources like SB Nation and Bleacher Report are generally unreliable, but there are specific writers I think are reliable based on their track record, or the fact they are referenced in the mainstream. I'll start with a few I use off the top of my head:
- Kevin Ding at BR
- Howard Beck at BR
- Ric Bucher at BR
- Mark Heisler at Forbes
- Anything from yahoo.com except from Yahoo Contributor Network, which any fan can write for
—Bagumba (talk) 19:41, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
- This is a good idea. But wouldn't anyone at Forbes be considered reliable, except for opinion writers? -- Calidum 19:44, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
- Honestly haven't looked at their model that closely. I'm generally wary of people listed as "contributors" on any site, unless I know the person's background, or know that the site exercises editorial control on the content or at least is selective about the level of contributors it allows on its site. Is Huffington Post generally reliable, or it again depends on the writer?—Bagumba (talk) 20:14, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
What happened to Manny Harris?
Manny Harris was the NBA D-League player of the week on December 22. He has missed the last two games and is no longer listed at the DLeague database, but he remains on on the D-fenders roster. I can find no explanation.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:45, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
- This would indicate that Harris left the D-Fenders for an "overseas deal," but doesn't specify where. Looking at Harris' Twitter he mentioned he was on a 14 hour flight so there you go. I'm sure the details will come out soon. Rikster2 (talk) 18:00, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
- Bought out contract on December 30 [9] and signed with Eskişehir Basket on December 31 [10]. DaHuzyBru (talk) 04:37, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
Access to free books
There are some sports-related titles that you may find helpful at Wikipedia:McFarland. Sign up required.—Bagumba (talk) 22:23, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
Merging WNBA player and basketball biography templates
There is currently a proposal here to merge the "Infobox:WNBA player" template into the "Infobox:basketball biography" template (as has already been agreed to via the consensus process). Please weigh in on the proposal to make this happen. Thanks Rikster2 (talk) 00:11, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
Lists of 40-point games
List of 40-plus point games by Carmelo Anthony was recently created. This led me to wonder what would be the notability criteria to determine
- How to determine which players should have such lists?
- Why is it 40 points, and not 50 or 30?
- Is this a case of WP:NOTSTATS? Unlike most Wikipedia lists, each entry does not have a link to relevant article in WP i.e. a list of All-Stars has a link to each All-Star player, a lists of seasons has a link to the respective season article, etc.
—Bagumba (talk) 03:52, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'd be in favor of deleting this article, I think. I don't understand its purpose.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:10, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Just to let everyone know, List of 40-plus point games by LeBron James and List of 40-plus point games by Kobe Bryant also exist and there has been a long discussion on the latter's talk page. Furthermore, that list failed FLC due to similar concerns as Bagumba stated above. I'm in favour of merging those list (and perhaps lower the threshold to 50 based on List of National Basketball Association players with 50 or more points in a playoff game) to the players career achievements article, just like Michael Jordan or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's article — MT (talk) 12:01, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Sure, we can decide to AfD standalone lists, but the real question are whether these lists are notable and not a case of NOTSTATS, whether it is an embedded or a standalone list? Is there any value above merely stating a player had X number of 40-point games?—Bagumba (talk) 17:51, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Just to let everyone know, List of 40-plus point games by LeBron James and List of 40-plus point games by Kobe Bryant also exist and there has been a long discussion on the latter's talk page. Furthermore, that list failed FLC due to similar concerns as Bagumba stated above. I'm in favour of merging those list (and perhaps lower the threshold to 50 based on List of National Basketball Association players with 50 or more points in a playoff game) to the players career achievements article, just like Michael Jordan or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's article — MT (talk) 12:01, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia has lists on cricket players' centuries. Is this an equivalent thing? –HTD 12:35, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
I was aware of WP:OTHERSTUFF. My question is what is the notability criteria for determining which players should have these types of list. Would we have one for Kiki Vandeweghe, a two-time All-Star with 15 games of 40?—Bagumba (talk) 17:48, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- "Centuries" look like a pretty standard "arbitrary achievement" in cricket. Are forty-point games given similar stature in basketball? Why not 50-point games? Or triple doubles? Quadruple doubles?
- I guess my point is: Is there a universally-accepted single-game basketball achievement that is similar to a "century"? –HTD 17:57, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- You are probably referring to a list like List of international cricket centuries by Sachin Tendulkar. I guess there would be less resistance from non-cricket people because at least there is a specific term for the achievement, century, it is limited to international matches, and most outsiders wouldn't belabor the point, knowing little about cricket. However, as a basketball editor, I am wondering what is the encyclopedic rational for having a list of games where a basketball player scored forty points. The real issue is whether it is NOTSTATS to enumerate every match into a list, when that list doesnt navigate the reader to an article with more information e.g. like a list of record holders would.—Bagumba (talk)
- Yeah, something like that (I also chanced upon similar FLCs too back in the day). The thing is I dunno if basketball (or the NBA specifically) has this "arbitrary single-game milestone" that's universally accepted. If the NBA keeps an "official list" somewhere then we could say that there's some recognition. It's nothing about being "elite", but probably "an elite achievement done by a player (who may not be elite)." –HTD 19:03, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- With the Internet, even "official" has taken on a different meaning. Data is not limited to print anymore. Would anything that can be generated from a stat query at http://stats.nba.com "official" be enough to create a list? Or is that WP:OR? With most documents available via download and not necessarily limited by print costs anymore, data might be less discriminate than before. For example, the Lakers media guide at p.83 lists all 16 of Nick Young's career 30-point games. Is that notable enough to create a list? Wikipedia has WP:LISTN as list notability criteria, but is much ever discussed other than "Player X had his nth career Y-point game". And does an entire list of stats for each game needed, when the core achievement can be summarized in one or two sentences?—Bagumba (talk) 20:13, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'm guessing that anything to do with stats is not very much an official "achievement". I guess the only "official" awards the NBA gives out are things such as the MVP. There's no clearcut arbitrary milestone in the NBA just as cricket has with its centuries, or even perfect games.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Howard the Duck (talk • contribs) 20:35, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- With the Internet, even "official" has taken on a different meaning. Data is not limited to print anymore. Would anything that can be generated from a stat query at http://stats.nba.com "official" be enough to create a list? Or is that WP:OR? With most documents available via download and not necessarily limited by print costs anymore, data might be less discriminate than before. For example, the Lakers media guide at p.83 lists all 16 of Nick Young's career 30-point games. Is that notable enough to create a list? Wikipedia has WP:LISTN as list notability criteria, but is much ever discussed other than "Player X had his nth career Y-point game". And does an entire list of stats for each game needed, when the core achievement can be summarized in one or two sentences?—Bagumba (talk) 20:13, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, something like that (I also chanced upon similar FLCs too back in the day). The thing is I dunno if basketball (or the NBA specifically) has this "arbitrary single-game milestone" that's universally accepted. If the NBA keeps an "official list" somewhere then we could say that there's some recognition. It's nothing about being "elite", but probably "an elite achievement done by a player (who may not be elite)." –HTD 19:03, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- You are probably referring to a list like List of international cricket centuries by Sachin Tendulkar. I guess there would be less resistance from non-cricket people because at least there is a specific term for the achievement, century, it is limited to international matches, and most outsiders wouldn't belabor the point, knowing little about cricket. However, as a basketball editor, I am wondering what is the encyclopedic rational for having a list of games where a basketball player scored forty points. The real issue is whether it is NOTSTATS to enumerate every match into a list, when that list doesnt navigate the reader to an article with more information e.g. like a list of record holders would.—Bagumba (talk)
Hi all, I was aware of information from WP:OTHERSTUFF and WP:NOTSTATS. However, my opinion is that articles of players who are the most elite scorers in NBA history, such as Carmelo Anthony, Kobe Bryant, and LeBron James could have an article about 40-plus point games. They are notable for being the most elite scorers in NBA history. However, I do know that there is no exact standard about whether any of these can exist, so I would be okay if they were deleted (I created the article on LeBron and Carmelo). I would question it though because Kobe Bryant's 40 point article has existed for over four years. Robert4565 (talk) 18:23, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Would my example of Vandeweghe above be considered "elite" enough. I'm not predetermined to delete, but I would like to know what are the criteria for articles you or others think should be created.—Bagumba (talk) 18:39, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- While Bryant's list has yet to be proposed for AfD, it did fail FL promotion because of its selection criteria at Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of forty-plus point games by Kobe Bryant/archive1.—Bagumba (talk) 18:57, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Hi Bagumba,
I'm sorry about removing your comment, it was not intentional. In my opinion, I think the criteria would be only for players who accomplish a very notable career achievement with scoring in NBA history. For example, LeBron was the youngest to 20,000[1][2], indicating that he will have a lot of 40-plus point games in the future, possibly even more than Kobe. Kobe has received attention from the media for his 40-plus point games. [3] [4] [5]. In 2009, he was number 3 in most 40-plus point games by an NBA player. Now that I think about Carmelo's article, he's not as notable as the others with scoring and has not had as much media attention. I would vote to delete Carmelo's article, but LeBron's and Kobe should go through AFD process. Robert4565 (talk) 03:41, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Bagumba, In my opinion, your example of Vandeweghe would not be considered elite enough because he has not received media attention for the amount of 40-plus point games he has had, nor will he likely be talked about by the media as an elite scorer. Robert4565 (talk) 03:46, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- @Robert4565: Since your have so far been the only editor of List of 40-plus point games by Carmelo Anthony, you can request a speedy deletion by placing {{Db-g7}} at the top of the article. Kobe and LeBron's it seems at least have arguable merits that WP:LISTN might be met.—Bagumba (talk) 22:04, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks to Robert4565 for voluntarily self-deleting Carmelo's list.—Bagumba (talk) 04:43, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
Updated photo of Quin Snyder
Do any project members know of a way to get an updated photo of Quin Snyder? Anybody going to a Jazz game soon?
Strs2010, who has held himself out as having Snyder as a client (see Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard/Archive 62#Quin Snyder article being censored by someone who claims Snyder as "client"), states that the current image is "personally offensive" to Snyder, yet he has refused to release a more satisfactory photo. Hence, I'm asking if anybody else can get a newer picture. —C.Fred (talk) 00:42, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
- Normally, an agent should have no problem providing one themselves.—Bagumba (talk) 07:23, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
- Exactly. Offer to uploade it to commons for him once he provides it. Anyone can claim to be anyone on the interwebs. Rikster2 (talk) 11:20, 9 January 2015 (UTC)