Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues/Archive 36

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Lead question

Hello, the last paragraph in the lead states:

"Of FIFA's 211 current member associations, 209 have men's leagues which are currently included in this list (see talk page). Liechtenstein is the only FIFA member without its own national league, while four countries have leagues which appear in both sections (Australia, New Zealand, the Philippines and the United States)."

Where:

• are the citations for these statements
• is the women's leagues information

Thank you, Hmlarson (talk) 00:22, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

As far as I can see, only two parts of that statement require referencing; the number of FIFA members (211, confirmed here) and the fact that Liechtenstein is the only member without a league (I can't find any source confirming this, although this states they are the only country in UEFA without one; Canada previously didn't have one until the Canadian Premier League was established last year and some country's leagues (like the Montserrat Championship) operate on an irregular basis, while the Palestinian territories have two – one for Gaza and one for the West Bank). The rest is a description of the list itself so would not require a source. I checked the list of FIFA confederations against the list of leagues and the 209 figure is correct. The only one that is missing is Ecuador.

Re the women's leagues, you are of course welcome to add it if you can find the information. I guess it's complicated by the fact that not every FIFA association has a women's national team, let alone a league. Number 57 11:54, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Please add the refs unless you think a buried talk page is adequate referencing for this page. Hmlarson (talk) 11:58, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Done. I also changed the statement on Liechtenstein to simply say it has no league. Number 57 12:11, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I added a clarifying statement for editors who may not be familiar with all the buried talk pages and history of this project. Were you around when WP:FPL was first established? Hmlarson (talk) 12:33, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

No, the roots of the guideline pre-date my involvement. They go back to when there was a single notability guideline for biographies with a single bullet point that covered all sportspeople. The fully-professional requirement (which covered most team sports) was introduced in September 2005. Number 57 12:48, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for providing that. Does this also jive with your memory? Or do you remember something else?

1. WP:NFOOTY was originally added to WP:NSPORT on September 1, 2007
2. WP:FPL was created on August 26, 2008. You are the second editor.

Hmlarson (talk) 13:14, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

• Number 57 - I'm curious why you state "There is only one notability guideline: WP:NFOOTY" in the "Everything okay with you?" discussion with Herthaaltedame starting 16 December 2020 on your talk page (see archives) and don't mention WP:GNG whatsoever when it takes precedence? Hmlarson (talk) 13:31, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
  • This was a discussion about WP:NFOOTY and WP:FOOTYN and I was pointing out that there is only one football guideline, i.e. WP:NFOOTY. Number 57 13:35, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
    • Ahh, but that's not exactly true - you know that with your long history here and the WP:ADMIN policy. Good thing I added that to the lead. Thanks for obliging this time. Hmlarson (talk) 13:42, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Iraq

Iraq should be reclassified to Fully professional

I seem to have found the confusion, the mistranslation of sources used to classify the league as "not professional". The word translated as professional actually means foreign, as in Arabic the word for foreign players is the same as professional players. The Asian Football Federation, as shown in it's Entry Manual for AFC Club Competitions (2021 Edition) in article 4 says that Member Associations must meet all of the ACL Criteria as set out below in order to obtain direct slots for the ACL: The relevant criteria, Article 4.1.4 says; Organisation of Professional Football League. As you can see by 2020 AFC Champions League Iraq had a direct spot to the ACL, meaning that they have satisfied Article 4.1.4, meaning that the Iraqi premier league is a fully professional football league. I can't seem to figure out how to cite a pdf but if you google the entry manual and click on the link provided by the website of the Asian football federation you can clearly check it out for yourself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alitheboss55 (talk • contribs) 13:54, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

I've corrected the citation. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 14:15, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

We've already discussed the matter of the AFC assessment criteria when talking about Syria (see discussion). As I said there, the AFC divides countries into pro and not pro: the pro go to the Champions League, the non-pro go to the AFC Cup. Some clubs that could participate in the CL on the basis of their country ranking were barred from entry as they did not pass the AFC requirements (in the entry manual Ali linked above). These entry requirements seem to have been implemented in 2009 (for example, in 2011 only 5/13 countries in West Asia passed the requirements, with the other 8 non meeting the criteria). Iraqi clubs are not to be seen in the AFC Champions League until 2019 (in 2014 a team took part in playoffs, but Iraq was not assessed).

Now, in and of itself, this does not necessarily mean that the Iraqi league itself is pro, just that the club(s) in question is(are) pro. Taking a look at the list of licensed clubs for 2019-20, 21/22 Iraqi clubs received a license, meaning that all (bar one) passed the requirements. Can we say that a league is fully-pro if 21/22 clubs are? Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 14:35, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

I would agree to adding the Iraqi Premier League, with a timespan of (2019-present). Any other thoughts? Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 21:43, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Yeah that seems fair enough Spiderone 12:37, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Is there any website that has squads for Iraqi league matches? Soccerway only has goalscorers but not squads (so is Kooora, as far as I can see). If we're gonna accept the players since 2019 then we at least have to have proof of players actually playing. --BlameRuiner (talk) 16:30, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Obviously goalscorers would be sourced by Soccerway. Otherwise, we would have to use an article stating that a player has played a specific game (say, X plays for Y against Z, but we won't know how many games X has played, just that he has played at least one game in the Iraqi Premier League, and is thus notable). Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 16:55, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Maybe @Alitheboss55: can help. --BlameRuiner (talk) 23:03, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

The league has started a partnership with the app 365scores. They currently list all the goalscorers with the time they score(in Arabic), they sporadically show the full line ups of games but there is no consistency there. You can find official line ups from the team's social media pages. I usually use an article from a news website that lists the line-up in their post-match coverage. The players that have specific games played is done through the efforts of specific users who keep track of them. For example @Mr. Port: updates the statistics of players from Al Mina'a using 2020–21 Al-Mina'a SC season

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References

FAWSL quotes

I noticed Nehme1499 reverted the removal of a quote by Hmlarson which said the English women's league is the only FPL in Europe from a number of leagues, even though that source does not mention those other leagues. I agree with the removal of the reference, since none of those leagues are actually mentioned, and I don't think we can prove the negative with just a quote from someone associated with a different league. I didn't want to revert since that cycle already started, so I'm taking it here. SportingFlyer T·C 00:37, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

• Support removal of FA WSL reference as it does not mention the leagues its being used for and is already outdated. Hmlarson (talk) 00:39, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
• Disagree: I mean, it would be pedantic to say: "England is fully-pro in Europe, whereas Albania, Austria, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, [...], the Ukraine, and Wales are not". If it says that 1/50 is the only fully-pro league, it explicitly implies that the other 49 are not. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 00:42, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

• Well, the source is just a woman associated with the English league, which is close to the source - I know it implies every other league isn't, but it proves absolutely nothing. SportingFlyer T·C 00:45, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

• Where is this reference please? It's quite hard to follow from the back and forth in the history. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 15:13, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
  • This one. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 15:56, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Nehme1499 (talk · contribs). To me it does sound like a soundbite of marketing puffery from Kelly Simmons rather than anything definitive. So sorry but I'd support its removal. To take a blanket approach and disqualify dozens of other leagues like this I'd expect a much stronger source. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 20:08, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

• Comment If people are unhappy with a source that uses a quote or is associated with the FA, there are several others available that say the same thing:
  • For the first time in Europe the whole of a women’s top tier has played football full-time. The Guardian
  • 'Even in England's Women's Super League, or WSL, the only fully professional league in Europe' ESPN
  • The league’s attractiveness to overseas players – in part due to being Europe’s only full-time league I News
  • It is now the only full-time league in Europe The Telegraph

Appreciate they are all from 2019. Cheers, Number 57 23:02, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Apparently "the fact that a handful of players at times have held other jobs - something that is already well known (so I'm unsure why you're pretending like you have a smoking gun!) - will NOT prevent having played in the league being considered as inferring notability" [sic] So thanks for the sources @Number 57:, but it seems they can be overruled anytime we feel like it – simply by using the power of imagination. Sorry about that! Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 10:32, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

References

Liga III and Liga II

As has been mentioned in a few AfDs recently, there are some that think that these leagues are fully pro. I have asked for sources yet but haven't had any back. Romanian football league system does say that the top three leagues are fully professional but this is unsourced as well. Has this ever been looked into? We've deleted footballers in the past for failing NFOOTBALL for only playing in these leagues. I'll admit to not speaking Romanian which is why I was hoping some of the Romanian editors in the recent AfDs would provide appropriate sources as I wouldn't know where to start with a search. Spiderone 21:01, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Liga II is certainly pro. Ludost Mlačani (talk) 18:01, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Are there any sources that mention this anywhere? Without reliable sourcing, we wouldn't be able to add it to the list Spiderone 19:12, 13 January 2021 (UTC)