This is an archive of past discussions on Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
ADM's article was recently deleted via this AfD, and now the link is being mass-removed from album articles. That's fine by me, I see nothing wrong with the AfD, and it's not my concern. What does concern me is the follow-through by Nyxaros on My Back Was a Bridge for You to Cross where that user has apparently decided that not having an article/being notable (and also not being mentioned in prose, though that's an easy fix if it's really necessary) negates the source's reliability, and has removed it. So I suppose I should bring this concern up here; does not having an article negate a source's reliability? Should it be removed from Template:Music ratings? There was a brief discussion there the other day asking the same in which I and one other editor said no, but another editor wasn't convinced. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 10:35, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Personally, I stand by the source and think requiring an article is nonsensical. Notability and reliability are two different and totally separate principles with no apparent value in conflating the two. We've had an established consensus for nearly a decade and I can't remember ever seeing any active music Wikipedia editors dissenting from it. Seems pretty much cut-and-dry to me.
I fully agree with you. There are several sources at WP:A/S without articles. The fact that other publications/authors don't write about them (so we can't write articles about these sources) doesn't mean they are less reliable. Should we start removing any mentions of journalists who don't have Wikipedia articles about them? That's absurd. AstonishingTunesAdmirer連絡12:35, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Not having its own article is a non-factor. That's flat out not a valid reason. Nyxaros is free to start up a new discussion on a completely separate thing - reliability/usability - but until there's a new consensus that supports it, he should not be removing it on those grounds. Sergecross73msg me13:44, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Comment: QuietHere, reading comprehension is very important but you clearly have not understood what I wrote. I have written nothing about not having an article and not being noteworthy negates reliability and I find it funny that the discussion continued with this mentality. ภץאคгöร22:05, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Could you explain why you removed it from the article if not for it being an unreliable source? You stated twice that it should be removed because of notability concerns, which would imply the ADM article failing GNG. You also stated that it was not exactly "reliable" (I'm not certain what the quotes implied). What does "not being noteworthy negates reliability" mean? Thank you. Οἶδα (talk) 22:19, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
You can ask simply instead of jumping to conclusions if it's too vague right? Also you should know better as an admin when to revert. Check before reverting to avoid reverting other non-related changes. Apart from the notability and reliability arguments, you keep adding back numbers to the tables that are not mentioned in the prose, which should not be done. ภץאคгöร22:30, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
adding back numbers to the tables that are not mentioned in the prose, which should not be done Would you mind showing a guideline that mentions this? Thanks in advance! AstonishingTunesAdmirer連絡22:33, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Are you going to answer the question or not? You literally wrote, as linked above Yeah, being notable is a requirement. What did you mean by that? You accused another editor of lacking reading comprehension, so you better have a good explanation. What was the intended take away from that? What are you citing when you say having an article is required? The rest can be easily addressed - a source is already present so a mention in the prose can easily be done. And your concern about reliability is overridden by the current Wikiproject consensus. So what's the hold up? Sergecross73msg me22:35, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
And of course now Nyxarosredid the edit again. At least this time the edit summary was clearer, though that is their third attempt at the same edit in a row so I left an edit-war warning on their talk page. Nyx, it would be a lot more helpful if you had left that summary as a comment here since it's clearly relevant to the discussion and also contains things you haven't already said anywhere else.
And since we're discussing that summary, here's my response: In practice, I've seen very few (if any) album articles include ADM information in prose. As for why I don't, that's mainly because you'd mostly be restating the same information which already exists in the table anyway. ADM doesn't offer any sort of additional ranking like Metacritic's "Universal Acclaim"/"Generally Favorable"/etc. scale, nor the critics consensus writeups of Rotten Tomatoes, so the only thing that one could include is the average rating and the number of reviews. One of those numbers is already in the template, and perhaps the other could be included as well but I'm not too worried about it either way. But the clause you're referring to is regarding album reviews full of prose which also have star ratings, and how a star rating alone does not explain well to readers what the critic's opinion on a given album is, so quotations from prose or some other excerpted information from that review is preferred. I don't think whoever wrote that clause had aggregate scores in mind, and I don't think you're gonna find a consensus for changing practice so that they should; honestly, you might have an easier time finding agreement in suggesting we get rid of Template:Metacritic album prose and have no prose from aggregate raters at all (I can vaguely remember at least one inconclusive discussion on that or a similar subject from the last few years). QuietHere (talk | contributions) 23:25, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
And of course, Quiet, you felt compelled to send the generic template due to your grievances against me 😒. Anyways, this may come as a surprise, but we don't just use optional templates and write nothing in prose. If we did, this wouldn't be an encyclopedia to begin with. We also don't follow a practice that the table comes first and then the text, because the table is optional. You have inadvertently introduced another argument: the redundancy of ADM. As you mentioned, ADM is only used for its review scores and is extremely similar to Metacritic but has fewer features. The aggregates and their contents are not general information known by everyone, so you should not expect the average reader to understand the context just from the numbers in the table. ภץאคгöร11:22, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
I believe you are confused. WP:VG has a guideline about not using GameRankings or OpenCritic when they're redundant to Metacritic. WP:ALBUMS has no such guideline with ADM. Until you get a consensus that supports that, that is not enforceable. You're free to try to get a consensus...but you don't appear to be persuading anyone of anything here so far here, so you'd probably better change your approach.
As far as removing ADM from review tables because its not mentioned in the prose, you're just wasting your time. The source and content is already readily available, so its extremely simple to drop a sentence in the prose. You'd be better off adding content to the prose than continuing to try to revert it out of the articles. Otherwise you're just going to keep getting your edits undone, like it continues to happen. Not sure if you've noticed, but there are a lot of editors who are quite persistent about adding aggregates to Wikipedia. It's not something you're going to be able to force your way through alone. You'll just find yourself spinning your gears accomplishing nothing, with a side possibility of receiving another edit warring block. Sergecross73msg me16:30, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
I just pointed out what Quiet wrote about ADM's features since it wasn't mentioned before. No enforcement whatsoever. Where did WP:VG come from? Not "revert it out of the articles", more like you delete it as you delete any information that is not fit. Also, there was no need for a very weak threat for a block that is not going to happen. ภץאคгöร18:55, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
I was referring to your comment You have inadvertently introduced another argument: the redundancy of ADM. I was informing you that removal on your perception of it being redundant would be invalid. Sergecross73msg me19:30, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
Nyx, your confidence is astounding. Serge is an administrator and could easily do it himself were grounds provided. Anyway, I see no difference here between "revert it out of the articles" and delete it as you delete any information that is not fit in this case, and would like clarification. Not to mention you're still being obscure about what you're arguing about here. I'm confused; if you feel so strongly about it lacking a place in the prose, why is your first thought to delete it instead of literally just adding something mentioning the source? Is that so hard? mftp danoops19:37, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
Not sure why they felt that was appropriate given this ongoing discussion. They posted here before making that edit so they know what they are doing. Do you not want to discuss it or something, Nyxaros? First you claim that this discussion is a result of a miscomprehension of what you said. Then you hammer on a separate rationale through an edit summary on that article? Then you avoid responding to what Sergecross73 wrote and instead change the subject. Strange. Not sure what the rush is. Clearly the community is interested in building consensus. You're not going to effectively communicate your points that way. Οἶδα (talk) 23:00, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
Agree with its use in articles, per the reasoning outlined by Sergecross73. I also noticed the AfD when it was too late and found there were 3000 backlinks. I would have appreciated a fuller discussion given that. Especially considering 4meter4 seems to be the only meaningful participant. But I am not certain if the AfD would have ended differently. And those backlinks have now been removed by TechnoSquirrel69. Nevertheless, that is not a judgement of the source's reliability and hence use in articles.
Comment: QuietHere, reading comprehension is very important but you clearly have not understood what I wrote. I have written nothing about not having an article and not being noteworthy negates reliability and I find it funny that the discussion continued with this mentality. ภץאคгöร 22:05, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
