Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Archive 28

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Archive 28

New proposal: More vitality levels?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The English Wikipedia has six million articles, so why don't we have six levels of vitality? Also, maybe tweak level five to have 100,000 articles, and level six have 1,000,000, and the requirements to get into level six are similar to that of five. (10⁶=1,000,000, so about 1/6 of all articles). I believe a sixth level is important, and adjusting the 5th level continues the powers of ten. Hellow Hellow i am here 18:44, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely not. We are barely able to maintain the 50,000 vital articles we have now. And keep in mind, that's only 50,000. 1,000,000 vital articles is a completely unfathomable concept that should never be implemented. I wouldn't even support an expansion of Vital-5 from 50,000 to 100,000. Also keep in mind that the process of determining what a vital article is or isn't is determined by someone proposing the article, and then garnering enough support over the course of about a month (usually) at V5, maybe a bit longer at the higher levels. Doing that with 50,000 more articles, let alone 1,000,000, is quite literally impossible. λ NegativeMP1 18:54, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I also agree that we struggle with Level 5 and the 50,000 articles in it. I could not see any scope that we could handle a 6th level, unless it was done by some kind of AI / Rule-based System? Sorry. Aszx5000 (talk) 10:22, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but it is effectively keeping up with the six million we already have. We have more than one-million editors, so I don't see why keeping up with one million articles is that hard. It is definitely hard, but we do have harder tasks already. Hellow Hellow i am here 18:49, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

There are maybe 15 (25 at most) editors that have any sort of involvement in vital articles. And this isn't "keeping up", and I don't see any way how this is "keeping up". Just because we are gaining more and more articles daily doesn't mean we need to expand vital articles to account for that. λ NegativeMP1 19:02, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

No, but we also have to account for the fact that there are an increasing amount of articles. It is important to realize that if you don't increase vital article count, then the amount of people who actually care about vital articles in Wikipedia, they are just 1% of all pages so you would expect few to care. Hellow Hellow i am here 19:06, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Vital article represent a small, hand selected assortment of articles that are among the most relevant subjects to an actual encyclopedia. Having 50,000 vital articles is already stretching it when you view it from that angle, and there's even been people who criticize Vital-4 (which is only 10,000). 1,000,000 (or even just 100,000) is, once again, completely unfeasible. And vital articles do not need to be expanded to accommodate for whatever articles are being made now. Vital articles should remain as the top 1% (if not less) of Wikipedia articles, not 15%.

Also keep in mind the other goal of vital articles: the maintenance part. There are already very few people who actually maintain and improve articles designated as "vital", and I am sadly part of those who don't (though I plan on changing that). And again, with flaws like this with only having 50,000 vital articles, then try to come up with any way that 1,000,000 vital articles is a feasible concept. λ NegativeMP1 19:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Alright, I'll help maintain. I am a new user, but I'll spot typos and find outdated data Hellow Hellow i am here 19:15, 24 October 2024 (UTC).

Besides, all articles should be maintained. It isn't like vital articles are the only articles that get outdated, any article can get outdated. Hellow Hellow i am here 19:20, 24 October 2024 (UTC) So, if we add more vital articles, more people will maintain because there are more vital articles to maintain. Hellow Hellow i am here 19:20, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Simply because you add more articles to the vital articles and improvements spill over to the vital articles as a result does not mean there will be more "vital article contributors." Widening the scope would only lead to less stability of the system as a whole, and more vital articles ≠ more vital contributions. Nub098765 (talk) 22:03, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

No you don't. Your idea would create an even bigger conceptual mess and make the idea of Vital articles even less tenable for editors who may not find it useful as is. Remsense ‥ 论 05:35, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Really, vital articles are just articles that have a higher quality and are more important to Wikipedia, not articles that may be more useful. Usually, they are going to be equally good, because most people understand mathematics already, which means usefulness is out of the question. There is no mess by adding 950,000 vital articles to the 50000 we already have. There is no problem if these articles are organized, which level 2-5 vital articles are already organized. Hellow Hellow i am here 13:03, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

The entire point of this project is to create a roadmap for the site that is comprehensible and navigable by interested editors. Otherwise, there is literally no reason for it to exist. You may as well say "every article is important". Remsense ‥ 论 20:03, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm convinced that you're either not being serious at this point, or genuinely do not know how the vital articles process works. Nobody wants to manage (or even find and add) 950,000 more vital articles, do you hear yourself right now? λ NegativeMP1 16:28, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I hear myself perfectly fine. Look, every article is important, but some are definitely more important than others. I said what I said, and I mean what I mean. 950,000 articles is less than the total amount of articles on even the Russian Wikipedia. Hellow Hellow i am here 16:03, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Can't chat long, but can I make a compromise suggestion? And this would apply for anyone interested in expanding the VA lists further. If you really want to see more vitality levels, your best bet would probably be to draw up, on your User page, a plan for how to make a list of that size scale.

Come up with the most specific, granular points you can, in all aspects: policies, procedures, technology, etc. Then slowly introduce those points (no more than one open proposal at a time) at Level 5.

Like almost everyone else here, I don't see the value in a Level 6, and I'm also on the record that I'd personally like to see Level 5 cut down some. I do contribute on-and-off at Level 5 though, and I do believe there is a place for it. The real problem with Level 5 (and I suspect even Level 4 to a degree) is that things just don't work the same at that scale.

If you focus on specific solutions to the scaling problem though, you not only make a Level 6 more likely in time, but we also avoid retreading this discussion and you help out the bigger lists we already have. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:26, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

We need to spend more time actually writing/editing the articles we have as it is. Trying to argue over a list that big sounds like an absolute nightmare. Maybe if we have ten times the number of active Wikipedia editors in a century we can discuss it. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:25, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

What we should have is a 20,000, 30,000 and 40,000 list. And if 50,000 ever stabilizes, THEN AND ONLY THEN create a 60,000. _pbp 00:03, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

That actually sounds smart. However, the 20,000, 30,000, and 40,000 lists aren't necessary. Hellow Hellow i am here 13:04, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

When we get 50,000 articles to be at least rated C or better, and 10,000 B or better, then I'd agree. Until then, we should focus on making a really solid 50,000 "Vital" articles. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:30, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Expanding the VA list would become a logistical nightmare for the reasons I and others explained in the Oppose section here.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 09:38, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

What is wrong with that? I just looked at the previous potential expansion and the support side had great reasoning. The oppose side also had good reasoning, but we will reach ten million articles within our lifetime, unlike what is said in the discussion.--13:08, 25 October 2024 (UTC) Hellow Hellow i am here 13:08, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Is this pitched enough to be called a perennial proposal yet? Hyperbolick (talk) 06:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes. The Blue Rider 22:47, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd say it has. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:44, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Most Wikipedia editors already think this project is a joke, specially the level 5 level for being too broad and arbitrary so adding yet another level would worsen the project's perception. The Blue Rider 22:47, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RfCs for nominating articles

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I don't see anything about RfC's about vital article nominations in nomination instructions and what not to use RfCs for.

Given the low participation in some of the discussions and given vital article nominations are not as common as something like WP:AFD discussions, is there any argument against starting RfC's about specific vital article nominations? Bogazicili (talk) 20:10, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

The list on what not to use the RfC process is not an extensive list. Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Archive 16#Specifying that RfCs should not be listed on AfDs makes a good argument for AfD that can also apply to WP:VA:

• There are hundreds of proposals on WP:VA; adding an RfC to each would overwhelm the RfC lists, obscuring other RfCs.
• WP:VA is inherently a specific request for comment about the vitality of an article, already suited for soliciting comments without the need for an RfC;
• Adding an RfC to just one VA nomination would give it disproportionately more attention than other nominations, creating an imbalance;
• WP:VA's nominations have differnt time periods than RfCs, which last 30 days; adding an RfC could unnecessarily delay the nomination closure by a lot of days.
• WP:VA is structured specifically to gather consensus on the vitality of articles, making it preferable over the RfC process. The Blue Rider 20:27, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

On the other hand, there is low participation. Most nominations in Level 5 seem to have 3 or 4 votes, for example.

There is also Wikipedia:Systemic bias problem.

PhD thesis:

It demonstrates that Wikipedia narratives about national histories are distributed unevenly across the continents, with significant focus on the history of European countries (Eurocentric bias)

Given the limited participation in certain topics, some of these systemic bias issues can be exacerbated. Bogazicili (talk) 20:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

The WP:VA has been noted, by this study, of having a good balance between geographical regions: VA represents region-neutral articles and articles relevant to the Global South at much higher rates than any of our three metric-based rankings. The Blue Rider 20:51, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

This is only about which article is about which country. to determine geographical breakdown, we obtain country data from Wikidata, which allows us to assign each article to any countries it strongly pertains to

It is not about narratives. For example, there is 2022 Kazakh unrest  5 but not Kazakh famine of 1930–1933. I would argue latter is far more important.

An example for the Eurocentric bias I talked about is including Holodomor  4 but not Kazakh famine of 1930–1933. But this wouldn't be necessarily detectable in the methodology of the study you linked. Bogazicili (talk) 21:14, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Then nominate Kazakh famine of 1930–1933 for vitality. Almost every day there are proposals made at vital articles to try and reduce what is seen as a bias towards specific countries, regions, topics, genres, or companies. Vital articles, like the rest of Wikipedia, is a community effort anyone is free to contribute to. Be the change you want to see. λ NegativeMP1 22:10, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

I was going to do it and now it's done. I can't do everything at once.

This topic is about RFCs though. Those were just examples. Now that I thought more about this, RFCs for the initial nomination can be too much. But if there is limited participation, a follow up RFC should be an option. Bogazicili (talk) 11:35, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Requests for comment discussions should be used for matters where there is a lot of general interest, often because the decision will affect a lot of people. The RfC process is not a tool to generate interest, nor is it designed to process a high stream of discussions, as this would place a lot of demand on the community's time. I think having a separate stream for vital article discussions is a better fit: I think it already reaches most of the people interested in the vital article process, and avoids swamping the centralized discussion process. isaacl (talk) 19:09, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Agree an RFC should not be used for a project list that is not reader oriented.Moxy🍁 01:10, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

We do have RfC's for non-articles. This would be under Wikipedia:Requests for comment/WikiProjects and collaborations Bogazicili (talk) 17:36, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

We do related to the governance of content. Moxy🍁 23:29, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree that this would not be a desirable use of the RFC process.

Additionally, I think the desire to have "more" editors is misguided. The goal is to make the right decision. The goal is not to have lots and lots and lots of people make the decision.

I believe I've mentioned this before, to the OP and in the context of Vital Articles, but Google used to put prospective employees through 12 interviews. However, the answer rarely changed after the fourth interview.[1][2][3] The subsequent eight interviews were almost always a complete waste of everyone's time.

Editors' time and attention is our most valuable resource. It is a really bad idea to have more people than necessary involved in this process. If you can get the right answer with a couple of people, then indiscriminately recruiting more editors to VA is actively harming Wikipedia. The opportunity cost of spending more time looking at VA's lists means that other work does not get done. So please, please, stop trying to get "more" people for VA. Instead, please focus on getting "the right" people in VA. For example, if you feel like Asian subjects are underrepresented, then please try to recruit a small number of editors who are familiar with Asian subjects. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

To tag onto this, on a few posts I've made, I'll just ping relevant Wikiprojects on their talk page to let them know there is a discussion. For example I recently posted some things about fighter jets to remove and add, so posted a notice onto the talk pages for Aviation and Military History. My knowledge of these things is below the expert level, so my hope is that relevant editors will see that and come vote. This mechanism should help to get the "right" people while also getting "more" eyes. At least that is the intention. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:46, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing: how do you propose doing that without WP:Canvass? My desire to get more people is due to the Eurocentric bias of English-language Wikipedia. Bogazicili (talk) 17:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

You can find and recruit individual editors to the VA process in general. For example, you could see who is editing Culture of Asia, and invite them to put Wikipedia:Vital articles or relevant subpages on their watchlist. You could also look at who edits VA articles the most, and invite them. Since these people are not being invited to any particular discussion/decision, then the canvassing rules don't apply.

You can also post notes about individual proposals at relevant WikiProjects, as GeogSage did. This is recommended in the canvassing rules.

An occasional RFC for an especially difficult decision might be acceptable, but this should be rare. Also, just so you know, Wikipedia:Requests for comment strongly discourages editors from having more than two RFCs at a time. Realistically, that means an annual limit around 25 RFCs, but in practice, if you start more than a couple a year, people will likely notice, and editors who start lots of RFCs on the same basic subject tend to be 'rewarded' with a WP:TBAN. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:02, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing: I was hesitant in contacting Wikipedia projects, given WP:Canvass, especially in a WP:Contentious topic such as WP:PIA. Something like Gaza genocide is covered in 10 Wikipedia projects. Posting in 10 Wikipedia projects might be considered as mass posting, which is inappropriate in WP:Canvass. Posting only in a place like Culture of Asia could be considered partisan, which is also inappropriate in WP:Canvass. Please check with Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee about your suggestions.

I also don't see this part strongly discourages editors from having more than two RFCs at a time in WP:RfC. There is WP:RFCBEFORE.

As I said, my current proposal is this: Now that I thought more about this, RFCs for the initial nomination can be too much. But if there is limited participation, a follow up RFC should be an option

I agree that editor time is limited and RfC's should be started only after other methods fail. Bogazicili (talk) 18:29, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

* Overuse of RfCs doesn't help. It is rare for a single article, or a single editor, to have more than one or two productive RfCs open at a time. Before starting a lot of RfCs, please check in on the RfC talk page for advice.

1. Here's a copy of the box in RFC that discourages more than two RFCs at a time.
2. The rule is that "Canvassing refers to notification done with the intention of influencing the outcome of a discussion in a particular way". Canvassing therefore does not refer to inviting someone to join a project in general, without any particular discussion in mind. "Hey, would you like to join my group?" is not canvassing. "Please come vote on this exact discussion" could be. You should do the first, not the second.
3. WP:CANVAS says: "An editor who may wish to draw a wider range of informed, but uninvolved, editors to a discussion can place a message at any of the following:
   • The talk page or noticeboard of one or more WikiProjects or other Wikipedia collaborations which may have interest in the topic under discussion."
     Ergo, notifying WikiProjects is explicitly not a violation of the anti-canvassing rule, even if there are ten relevant WikiProjects.

WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:12, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should articles that are removed on a level be removed also on levels below it?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I'm referring to this closed proposal of a level 4 article. This article is now removed from level 4, but should it be removed from level 5 as well? I have been under the impression that it shouldn't be, but maybe I've been mistaken. What has the consensus been? Makkool (talk) 17:23, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Removals on lower levels should be separately nominated. Removing an article from level 3 just demotes it into a level 4 article for example. That's the procedure I've observed.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 17:47, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I always figured this was just the inverse of WP:VANOSKIP and that "removal" at a higher list only applied to that list. I wouldn't be surprised if things got dropped entirely without step-by-step demotion in the past, but that was before the procedural changes this past year. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 18:51, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

No, they should not. If anyone thinks that an article listed at VA4 should not be listed at all, they would have to make separate proposals for VA4 and VA5. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:00, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.