Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Vegas Golden Knights players/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Hey man im josh via FACBot (talk) 00:26, 24 September 2024 (UTC) [1].[reply]

List of Vegas Golden Knights players

Featured list candidates/List of Vegas Golden Knights players/archive1

Nominator(s): The Kip ^(contribs) 05:30, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Continuing my semi-steady FL-izing of VGK lists. Somewhat based off of the current state of FL List of Florida Panthers players (which badly needs to be updated anyways - I've got that on the docket for the next few days), I've dramatically expanded/sourced the prose of the lead, and made some accessibility edits related to the tables. The Kip ^(contribs) 05:30, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by ChrisTheDude

Image caption isn't a complete sentence so it doesn't need a full stop
"23 skaters and four goaltenders" => "The names of 23 skaters and four goaltenders" (avoids starting the sentence with a digit and is also technically more accurate)
"the Lady Byng Memorial Trophy as the NHL's most gentlemanly player" - no issues with this but it really amused me - it reads like something I would expect in cricket or polo rather than ice hockey :-)
Some of the image captions contain factoids which I don't believe are sourced e.g. "Adin Hill started 14 playoff games in the 2023 Stanley Cup Playoffs, including all five games of Vegas' Finals victory" - the table only shows that he played 19 playoff games in total, not that he started 14 in 2023 specifically....
That's all I got, great work :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:01, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ChrisTheDude Sourced the Hill and Hague captions, as well as the Fleury 46-game bit - the rest are all either cited in the lead, or from HockeyRef/NHL/HockeyDB/etc via the tables themselves (WP:CALC and all that). Hope that fixes everything! The Kip ^(contribs) 20:23, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:28, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Alavense

51 of these skaters and five goaltenders have appeared in at least one playoff game - As per MOS:NUMNOTES: "Comparable values nearby one another should be all spelled out or all in figures, even if one of the numbers would normally be written differently".
The names of 23 skaters and four goaltenders were engraved on the Stanley Cup following the Golden Knights' Finals victory in 2023, with the latter total making the Golden Knights the first team in NHL history to engrave four goaltenders on the Cup - Ditto.
Adin Hill started 14 playoff games in the 2023 Stanley Cup Playoffs, including all five games - Ditto.
To make the use of the Oxford comma consistent, add a comma after the parenthesis in (including overtime and shootout losses) and.
Out of ignorance: shouldn't in on and off-ice be in on- and off-ice?
The Note in note a) is unnecessary.
The way the images are displayed at the beginning of each section is a bit weird on PC view. Given that the width of the table doesn't allow for them, wouldn't it be better to lay them out in a different way? I was thinking about something like this.

That's what I saw, The Kip. I've got a couple of nominations going on, in case you have time and fancy having a look at them. Kind regards, Alavense (talk) 07:17, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Alavense Corrected the various grammar/copy-edit things. As for the photos - I'd prefer not to if possible, so as to keep consistency with most other hockey lists that display the images at the side. To be quite honest I'm not the biggest fan of the gallery view - it appears a bit awkward when most of the images are larger vertically than horizontally, while all but one of the images in the linked FL are horizontally larger. The Kip ^(contribs) 09:14, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't like the way it is displayed now, with that big hole at the beginning of each section, but I guess it's a matter of personal taste. Nice work on the list. Support. Alavense (talk) 09:28, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

MrLinkinPark333 verification check

"they play in the Pacific Division of the Western Conference in the National Hockey League (NHL)" - Need a source here as the 2016 NHL sources were before they started to play. These two sources could be moved up to verify "Founded ahead of the 2017–18 season as an expansion team"
"The franchise plays its home games at T-Mobile Arena on the Las Vegas Strip in Paradise, Nevada" - Skyrisecities doesn't look like a reliable source. Also needs a current source to show that this is correct.
"With the Golden Knights having reached the Stanley Cup playoffs six times in seven seasons as a franchise" - QuantHockey doesn't mention this. Extra source needed.
"as well as playoff goals, assists, and points;" - Need a specific link from NHL Records that shows Marchessault's playoff records such as this.
"William Karlsson is the active leader in the aforementioned regular-season categories as well as playoff points, with Mark Stone the active leader in playoff goals and Shea Theodore in playoff assists. Karlsson and Marchessault share the record for playoff games played" - Need specific sources to show that Karlsson and Thedore are active while showing they are the active leaders in these stats for the Golden Knights.
"Brayden McNabb is the active and all-time leader in penalty minutes" - need an extra source that shows McNabb is active.
"Ryan Reaves is the all-time leader in playoff penalty minutes, while Keegan Kolesar is the active leader." - Need specific links to show that Reaves is the all-time leader and Kolesar is the active leader.
"Marc-Andre Fleury holds all regular-season and playoff records" - This isn't true. For instance Hill leads in playoff save percentage, so "all" must be removed.
Secondly, Fleury needs a specific source that shows he leads in "games played, wins, losses (including overtime and shootout losses), and shutouts" for the playoffs.
"Following the franchise's inaugural season" - Karlsson's award mentions that 2018 was the first season for the Golden Knights, not Engelland. This sentence order can be switched as they are from the same date.
"Conn Smythe Trophy as the most valuable player of the 2023 Stanley Cup playoffs." - Extra source needed here as The Athletic doesn't mention the trophy is a MVP award.
"Mark Stone has served as the Golden Knights' first and thus far only captain" - Extra source needed to show Stone remains as the only captain by 2024.

Going through point by point:

This feels unnecessary - it's one of those things that simply "is," or could even be considered common knowledge, and hasn't changed since 2016.
I've replaced the Skyrise Cities source with one from the Las Vegas Sun (no relation to the Sun tabloids), but w/r/t them still playing there - again, another thing that feels unnecessary to need a citation for, as it's another thing that simply "is," or could also be considered common knowledge.
Cited from HockeyRef. Seasons table is located on main franchise page.
With Marchessault, I was actually wrong on playoff assists (that's Reilly Smith), but I cited to the specific NHL.com record tables.
With the Karlsson/Theodore/Stone active leaders bits, I've cited QuantHockey, which bolds active players w/ VGK on the list - it still has Marchessault bolded, but I assume that will be resolved shortly, and even if not, the sentence prior already establishes that he's no longer on the team.
With regards to McNabb as the active leader, added QuantHockey to endorse active status.
With regards to Reaves/Kolesar, added NHL records ref for the former and QuantHockey for the latter. Again, I expect Marchessault and Carrier will be un-bolded shortly, and even then, it feels common-knowledge enough that they were part of VGK's mass departures this year.
Changed "all" to "most."
Replaced one source with four. This is another spot I was concerned may become citation overkill, so much so that I added an EFN to contain the refs. There's no specific page for most losses, but it's easily verified on the most wins table, which also has losses and shutouts.
Swapped the order.
Replaced the Athletic source, but again, also feels like common knowledge in the sports world that the Conn Smythe is the NHL playoffs MVP.
Stone remaining the captain is another thing that simply "is"/is common knowledge. Not really sure what I can do there. The Kip ^(contribs) 08:21, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Goaltenders table

Ferguson's GAA is 6.50, not 6.67.
Lagace's SV% is .868, not .871.
I suggest adding the 2024-25 roster to show Hill is the only goaltender that's still on the team. Hockey Reference uses 2024 instead of present. Therefore, it can be confusing to determine who left in 2024 (such as Thompson) and who stayed.
Neither HockeyDB or Hockey-Reference list the playoff stats in the team page (they're in the individual player/goalie pages). Found this source that lists them all.
With that source, Lester's SV% for the playoffs is .911, not .920.
I think the source that lists all of the Golden Knight players that won the Stanley Cup should be reused in the Notes column since the prose in the lead does not specifically name them.

Again point by point-ish:

Fixed the first two according to HockeyRef.
Doesn't really matter, as the list isn't updated until after each season anyways, by which point it'll be clear who stuck around by which guys HockeyRef lists as 2024 and which it lists as 2025 and beyond. Green is always most recent completed season anyways, which'll be 2023-24 until about 10 months from now.
Added EliteProspects link to both tables.
Corrected Lehner's SV%
Going to respectfully disagree - the prose mentions 23 skaters and four goaltenders, and the sources both contain every name - I don't think the table should be cluttered by having the same redundant citation appear 27 times. The Kip ^(contribs) 08:35, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Skaters table

A source can be reused here to show which of the players are on the 2024-25 roster.
Similarly, a source like Elite Prospects needs to be added for the playoffs stats.
I also suggest reusing a source in the Notes column to show which of the skaters won the Stanley Cup.
HockeyDB says Jonathan Marchessault was a right winger, not center.
Paul Stastny was born in Canada.
Oscar Lindberg was left winger.
Jake Leschyshyn was born in the USA.
Luca Sbisa is Italian.
Peyton Krebs played from 2020-2022.
Mason Morelli was a left winger.
Tomas Jurco was a left winger.
Dylan Sikura was a right winger.
Vadim Shipachyov was center.
Gage Quinney was center.
Sven Baertschi was left winger.

~~Oppose~~ for now based on the combined large amount of verification issues. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 22:08, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@MrLinkinPark333 I’ll handle the rest a bit later, but w/r/t Stastny/Sbisa/Leschyshyn - nationality in hockey is based upon citizenship and who they’ve represented internationally, not birth country. Sbisa’s played for the Swiss national team, Stastny the U.S. one, and Leschyshyn played for a Canada team at the U17s - they all hold citizenship(s) there as well. The Kip ^(contribs) 01:47, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, sources would be needed to verify that as HockeyDB only gives country of birth. MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 01:52, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

With all due respect, individual verification of that and a few other things on the list would, at least in my opinion, be veering into citation overkill. Some of the items on the list are things that just simply “are,” and aren’t contentious or likely to be challenged. The Kip ^(contribs) 02:01, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To me, the nationalities wouldn't be something that passes Wikipedia:Common knowledge. Featured List List of Philadelphia Flyers players explains why Knuble is listed as American and not Canadian, while listing a citation in the note. The same could be done here by adding references into a note for Stastny, Leschyshyn and Sbisa. Otherwise, the nationalities column could be switch to country of birth instead and won't require any extra sources. What else do you believe do not need citations? MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 02:18, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose I'll add a similar note to the table for their nationalities - switching it to the country of birth would be misleading/inaccurate to readers. As for the other things I have qualms about citations on, I'll go section by section above. The Kip ^(contribs) 07:33, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Point by point:

Doesn't really matter, per above.
Added already.
Disagree, per above.
Positions are a finicky thing in hockey, and various sites agree or disagree. W/r/t those mentioned:

NHL.com and HockeyRef list Marchessault as a C, so I'll keep it that way. I'm generally inclined to go with whatever NHL.com says unless it's alone as the minority.
NHL.com agrees that Lindberg was a LW, HR says C. EliteProspects has it both ways and lists him as a C/LW - I'll change him to LW given that's the majority.
NHL.com agrees that Morelli is an LW, and HR just lists him as "forward." EP has C, but LW appears to be the majority.
NHL.com lists Jurco as an RW, as does HR. EP says LW/RW, so I'm going with RW.
NHL.com says Sikura was an RW, HR says C, and EP says LW/RW. I'll go with RW.
NHL.com and EP list Shipachyov as a C, HR says LW, so I'll swap to C.
NHL.com says Quinney was a C; EP says C/LW, while HR just says forward. I'll swap to C.
All four say Baertschi was an LW - not really sure how he ended up entered as a C.

We already discussed the nationalities issue.
Krebs bit fixed. The Kip ^(contribs) 08:50, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Leftover points

@The Kip: Here's a summary of what's leftover that I believe needs to be done:

Keefer 2016 Las Vegas Sun source does not say the location of T-Mobile Arena. Found this 2023 source which could be used instead as it has both the Strip and Paradise. Otherwise, a current source such as this could be used instead while removing The Strip and Paradise.
Need this QuantHockey regular season source next to the QuantHockey playoffs source to verify Karlsson's records.
Shea Theodore is the record holder for regular season assists, not Karlsson per QuantHockey.
With Mark Stone, you could use this source instead that shows he's been the only captain.
For the current roster for goaltenders & skaters, you could use "2024" instead of "present" if you don't want to use the 2024 roster. All three sources (HockeyDB, Hockey-Reference, Elite Prospects) use that format and it won't require extra sourcing.
The Stanley Cup list of names could be reused twice, (once each next to the word Notes in the Goaltenders and Skaters tables). I agree using it 27 times isn't needed.
For Jurco, Marchessault, and Sikura's positions, you could cite their NHL profiles. The other 5 are fine.
Thank you for adding a note for Sbisa being Swiss. You could also add Leschyshyn and Stastny as well as they are the only ones that don't match their place of birth. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 18:42, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I added the SN source, though I really feel like the Strip/Paradise is the sort of geographic general knowledge that could be covered by this higher-quality source instead, rather than having to individually cite both. Again, I don't think the location is contentious or likely to be challenged.
Done.
Fixed/updated.
Used an NHL records page instead that lists him as captain from 2021-present.
I still disagree that the 2024/present thing is an issue. We don't need to overload readers with citation overkill when it'd be fairly common knowledge to the majority of readers who reach this page that certain players are or aren't still on the team. If they're unsure, despite the 2024/present being listed in the table, they can click through to the player's wikilink, which contains said info. Listing current players as 20XX-2024 is misleading. And again - the table won't be updated until after next season anyways at which point HockeyRef/QuantHockey/etc will make it clear that some guys stayed beyond 2024 and some didn't.
I also still disagree here - having it linked in the prose is enough, same for the other awards. They're also all listed and cited at the linked Finals page.
And here. Citing individual positions is overkill - no other NHL FL has it, or really sports FLs in general. I might just list Sikura as an forward, given the disagreements from sources.
Sbisa is merely the example the note uses - the general content of it applies to Stastny/Leschyshyn, same as the Flyers FL.

The Kip ^(contribs) 21:39, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In regards to the positions, it's understandable that sources disagree which winger position Sikura and Jurco played. However, the cited sources (HockeyDB and Elite Prospects) says Marchessault was a winger. It might be easier to add a note with source for Marchessault only explaining that NHL.com and/or HockeyRef says he's a center. Taking a look at the Flyers FL, I'm fine with following the format of citing the Stanley Cup winners once and just adding a note for the nationalities contradiction. I do see that the Flyers FL uses present instead of 2024. However, as you feel that it's not necessarily, I'll leave it be. Once the clarification for Marchessault is addressed, you're good to go. MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 23:15, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@MrLinkinPark333 I've added a note on Marchessault - let me know if it works. The Kip ^(contribs) 05:05, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Works for me. Support MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 17:36, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey man im josh

Refs with "NFL.com" should be changed to National Hockey League (and wikilinked). There's quite a few source you have from the NHL added already and this would be better for consistency.
Ref 27 uses the website field instead of publisher for NHL, which is acceptable based on the Template:Cite web, but consistency and all
Date formatting in references is inconsistent, consider adding the {{Use mdy dates|September 2024}} template to the top of the article under the short description
Ref 38 – We typically remove the site name from reference titles, so exclude " – EliteProspects"
Was the goal originally to only link the first occurrence in some instances? I ask because it looks kind of like it, but I'm seeing a lot of inconsistences in the linking of publishers/websites in the references
Ref 7 and general reference 1 – Remove ".com", since the article is at HockeyDB
Could probably do with a run of iabot
Refs 1, 2, 10, 23, 24, and 27 are actually links that immediately redirect, so they should be updated to the direct links

That's what I've got for now. Good stuff Kip, as always! Hey man im josh (talk) 13:26, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Hey man im josh Sorry for the delay - life's caught up with me lately! Should have these fully addressed by tomorrow or Monday. The Kip ^(contribs) 01:11, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, just ping me when you do. Hey man im josh (talk) 12:03, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Hey man im josh should be all taken care of. Wikilinked all websites/publishers/works, added the mdy dates template, and ran IABot, among the other things. The Kip ^(contribs) 21:41, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Hey man im josh not to bother - everything good with the updates? The Kip ^(contribs) 17:27, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely appropriate to bother in this case @The Kip. I'm pleased with it all, so I support. Hey man im josh (talk) 17:30, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Hey man im josh (talk) 17:36, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.