Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Toraja
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- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted 22:39, 13 June 2007.
It's been awhile and I would like to nominate this article again after a lot of revisions, new materials addition based on previous FACfailed nom. The article has now about 35kb and it is large enough for common readers to understand about this special ethnic group of Indonesia. It covers all aspects needed to know about them, including history, culture, society, economy and its present modern civilization. I hope the article can gain FA status now. Thanks. — Indon (reply) — 11:26, 29 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Mild oppose. The article needs more inline citations, especially in the "Wood carvings" section (where statements like "The Torajan language is only spoken; no writing system exists" like citations). The article also has unsourced POV statements like "When Tana Toraja was further opened to the outside world in the 1970s, Toraja became an icon of tourism in Indonesia, exploited by tourism developers and studied by many anthropologists." Exploited is a loaded term and needs a solid cite to support it. Best, --Alabamaboy 00:35, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]- Reply. Thanks Alabamaboy. I have provided inline citation you requested. Since I wrote almost all materials in the article, I know exactly where they came from because I didn't know about this subject prior writing it when it was still a stub. So if you find some other statements that you think their sources will be likely to be challenged, then please let me know again. — Indon (reply) — 08:26, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Thanks for adding more citations. Looks good to me. --Alabamaboy 20:16, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you Alabamaboy. I wonder why this kind of topic attracts less reviewer than pop-culture. — Indon (reply) — 07:28, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Thanks for adding more citations. Looks good to me. --Alabamaboy 20:16, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose. You've done a fantastic job with the material which is in the article, well done Indon! My concern is the same as last time - the article is not yet sufficiently scoped to cover important aspects of their culture -
traditional dance, clothes,music, cuisine, etc. Anothersmallerconcern is to find some good pictures of Toraja people, but I know how hard this can be. Caniago 12:31, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]- Reply:. Thanks for your comment Caniago. My concern is the article's size. Those cultural aspects are not as important as the other three already mentioned (the house, wood carvings and funeral rites) which are the iconic symbols of Toraja. However, I'm going to add some statements about them. — Indon (reply) — 12:38, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Updated:. I just added the traditional Toraja dance and music subsection. — Indon (reply) — 16:24, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the new section. The text has a section on "Funeral rites", but it also mentions "Both death and life rituals are equally important.". However, the article doesn't seem to yet adequately address what the life rituals of the Toraja are. It mentions "During the Dutch missionary works, Christian Torajans were prohibited from attending or performing life rituals, while allowing them to perform death rituals. Consequently, Toraja's death rituals are still practiced today, while life rituals diminished.". So, I'd like to know what the life rituals are today, and if possible what they were before the Dutch missionaries arrived. I presume they include ceremonies including birth, marriage, etc. I changed my vote to oppose for now as per criteria 1(b). (Caniago 04:44, 18 May 2007 (UTC))[reply]
- It's a very difficult task you asked, as life rituals are very rare today both in practice and in literature. I can't promise anything now. — Indon (reply) — 11:26, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I know, but with the high standard you have set with your other articles I'm always expecting great things from you Indon :). How about the book "The Thread of Life: Toraja reflections on the life cycle" by Jane C. Wellenkamp, University of Hawaii Press, 1996. There must be others too? (Caniago 15:58, 18 May 2007 (UTC))[reply]
- Hmm.. I don't have the book at my hand. I have several sources from journals and JSTORS. Let me find if there are life rituals still performed nowadays and then. If I can't find them, then sorry that I can't add anything more about it in the article. Perhaps in the contemporary Toraja life itself today, the life rituals have already forgotten. — Indon (reply) — 21:05, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I know, but with the high standard you have set with your other articles I'm always expecting great things from you Indon :). How about the book "The Thread of Life: Toraja reflections on the life cycle" by Jane C. Wellenkamp, University of Hawaii Press, 1996. There must be others too? (Caniago 15:58, 18 May 2007 (UTC))[reply]
- It's a very difficult task you asked, as life rituals are very rare today both in practice and in literature. I can't promise anything now. — Indon (reply) — 11:26, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the new section. The text has a section on "Funeral rites", but it also mentions "Both death and life rituals are equally important.". However, the article doesn't seem to yet adequately address what the life rituals of the Toraja are. It mentions "During the Dutch missionary works, Christian Torajans were prohibited from attending or performing life rituals, while allowing them to perform death rituals. Consequently, Toraja's death rituals are still practiced today, while life rituals diminished.". So, I'd like to know what the life rituals are today, and if possible what they were before the Dutch missionaries arrived. I presume they include ceremonies including birth, marriage, etc. I changed my vote to oppose for now as per criteria 1(b). (Caniago 04:44, 18 May 2007 (UTC))[reply]
- (unident) WP:WIAFA 1.b says: "Comprehensive" means that the article does not neglect major facts and details.. I believe all major and important facts are already presented in the article. Yes, you read a lot of funerals, their traditional houses and tourism, but as you read in the text that they are the most important aspects of Toraja life and history. I don't have sources (books) for the other facts about their food, pregnancy, birth, marriage, divorce, etc., but they are not important facts to pass 1.b. — Indon (reply) — 09:35, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I disagree. I don't believe you are able to sufficiently understand an ethnic group without having an understanding of the impact of their culture on key aspects of their life - birth, adolescence, marriage, divorce, etc. Focusing on the funeral aspects alone is not sufficient. Other key aspects currently missing include some photos of Toraja people, and aspects like their cuisine, history of warfare/headhunting, etc. The article as it stands is good, but it is not sufficiently comprehensive. (Caniago 09:55, 25 May 2007 (UTC))[reply]
- I believe we cannot make the same information from all ethnic groups for FA, because one major aspect of one ethnic group can be a minor aspect of the other one. I've looked into other FA ethnic group articles: Tamil people, Azerbaijani people and Pashtun people. Tamil has a small mentioning of cuisine and a large portion of literature, visual arts and religion. OTOH, Azerbaijani and Pasthun do not mention about cuisine. Furthermore all of them do not mention about divorce, marriage or other. Some important aspects are specifically mentioned in those articles. For example, there is a dedicated Women section in the Pasthun article, Genetics section in the Azerbaijani to explain about Turkic, Iranian and Caucasian descendants, and a large portion of history in the Tamil article because they influenced Indian history. Now, for Toraja, the most astonishing story features about Toraja, that fascinates anthropologists or whoever who wants to know about this ethnic group, are its elaborate and expensive funerals, their striking traditional house (and it is a central part of Toraja life), and its history through tourism commercialization after it was opened by the Indonesian government. If readers want to know more detail about its other non important aspects, then we can always suggest to read books in the Further Readings section. In this case, I will add books you suggested in that section later. — Indon (reply) — 11:59, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- To neglect 90% of the lives of the Toraja is fine in a tourist book or an individual academic paper, but an Encyclopedia needs to provide a general and comprehensive overview of the subject. Other ethnic group articles are irrelevant to the discussion - we weren't involved in promoting them. To say aspects like childbirth or marriage are not important is nonsense, they are important in every culture. There are details which have been documented for these aspects of the lives of Toraja, and an overview needs to be included. (Caniago 12:21, 25 May 2007 (UTC))[reply]
- Of course we can compare similar articles. We have FA standard for every articles, right? I have a different opinion about 90% of Toraja lives. It's not about marriage, courtship, foods, etc. but almost 100% of Toraja life lies in its religion (aluk), which has been mentioned actually in the article. Aluk governs all aspects of Toraja's life. Should we mentioned all of them in detail here? I guess we have to pick most major parts of aluk here to conform with WP:SIZE. Otherwise we are going to make a complete book of Toraja. And those major aluk parts have already been presented in the article. Okay, perhaps I was wrong to say it is not important, but it is minor aspects. — Indon (reply) — 13:02, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- For ethnic groups who follow one of the mainstream religions, many life events are guided by religion, and so providing details isn't so necessary. That the Toraja have a unique animistic based religion is all the more reason to provide an overview of their lives and the major events in their lives. We have nothing to guide our understanding of how their lives are impacted by their beliefs and culture. You don't need to provide every detail, but we do need an overview of their their whole lives, not just their afterlives. Ultimately I think Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups needs to develop some guidelines about what need to be covered in an ethnic group article, since there seems to be little consistency. (Caniago 14:37, 25 May 2007 (UTC))[reply]
- To neglect 90% of the lives of the Toraja is fine in a tourist book or an individual academic paper, but an Encyclopedia needs to provide a general and comprehensive overview of the subject. Other ethnic group articles are irrelevant to the discussion - we weren't involved in promoting them. To say aspects like childbirth or marriage are not important is nonsense, they are important in every culture. There are details which have been documented for these aspects of the lives of Toraja, and an overview needs to be included. (Caniago 12:21, 25 May 2007 (UTC))[reply]
- I believe we cannot make the same information from all ethnic groups for FA, because one major aspect of one ethnic group can be a minor aspect of the other one. I've looked into other FA ethnic group articles: Tamil people, Azerbaijani people and Pashtun people. Tamil has a small mentioning of cuisine and a large portion of literature, visual arts and religion. OTOH, Azerbaijani and Pasthun do not mention about cuisine. Furthermore all of them do not mention about divorce, marriage or other. Some important aspects are specifically mentioned in those articles. For example, there is a dedicated Women section in the Pasthun article, Genetics section in the Azerbaijani to explain about Turkic, Iranian and Caucasian descendants, and a large portion of history in the Tamil article because they influenced Indian history. Now, for Toraja, the most astonishing story features about Toraja, that fascinates anthropologists or whoever who wants to know about this ethnic group, are its elaborate and expensive funerals, their striking traditional house (and it is a central part of Toraja life), and its history through tourism commercialization after it was opened by the Indonesian government. If readers want to know more detail about its other non important aspects, then we can always suggest to read books in the Further Readings section. In this case, I will add books you suggested in that section later. — Indon (reply) — 11:59, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I disagree. I don't believe you are able to sufficiently understand an ethnic group without having an understanding of the impact of their culture on key aspects of their life - birth, adolescence, marriage, divorce, etc. Focusing on the funeral aspects alone is not sufficient. Other key aspects currently missing include some photos of Toraja people, and aspects like their cuisine, history of warfare/headhunting, etc. The article as it stands is good, but it is not sufficiently comprehensive. (Caniago 09:55, 25 May 2007 (UTC))[reply]
- It's good, but needs a copy-edit throughout. Here are examples from the top of why this is the case.
- "The majority of the population is Christian, with Muslim and local animist beliefs, known as aluk (the way), existing as minorities." Clumsy use of "existing". Removing the word is one solution.
- "Prior to"—What's wrong with "before"?
- Why are dictionary terms such as "autonomous", "agricultural" and "social life" linked? Pipe-linking "habits" to "habituation" is surely wrong. Then "ethnic group", "20th century" .... Why? Please audit the whole article for trivial links.
- Commas required: "Early Dutch missionaries faced strong opposition especially among elite Torajans as the abolishment of their profitable slave trade angered them." Tony 04:13, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Reply. Ah, thanks Tony. Finally, somebody reviewed it after a long vacuum. I'm going to work on it per your suggestions and will ask some good external copyeditors to furnish the article. I'll update about it later. — Indon (reply) — 07:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I did some work and left you some ref questions on the talk page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:12, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I have answered your concerns in the article's talk page. — Indon (reply) — 13:18, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Very nice work so far on the footnotes and referencing; pending Outriggr's copyedits, things are looking good ! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:15, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - Yes, things are looking good, I knew this would make its way to FAC when I first saw it. "Highly support without doubts". Cheers - Imoeng 12:55, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Neutral—surprised to have to correct a blooper or two (abolishment). But it's not bad now. Tony 02:39, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Support I don't believe that every little nuiance of a people has to be addressed---if it isn't notable then you don't need to have a special discussion dealing with food, pregnancy, birth, marriage, divorce.Balloonman 06:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.