Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Rex Ryan/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 00:21, 22 August 2012 [1].

Rex Ryan

Nominator(s): The Writer 2.0 ^Talk 18:05, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... after additional work over the span of a year, I feel it meets the criteria. I initially nominated the article at FAC in June 2011 however concerns over the amount of autobiography refs stonewalled further progress. After obtaining additional outside sources, promoting the article to GA status and soliciting the input of two editors familiar with the subject, I'm prepared to go ahead and move on to the next phase and earn Mr. Ryan a bronze star, although it may serve as little consolation for his lack of Super Bowl trophies. The Writer 2.0 ^Talk 18:05, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: This seems very well written and clearly explained. I'm not a football fan at all, but followed this without too many problems. I haven't looked at sourcing at all, but cannot see too many problems with the overuse of the autobiography which I see were a prior concern. Also, I cannot vouch for the comprehensiveness of this article as football remains a subject on which I am woefully ignorant! Sarastro1 (talk) 00:38, 1 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"After growing up in Canada for the majority of his youth, Ryan returned to the United States as a teenager": Maybe "After spending the majority of his youth in Canada, Ryan returned to…"
"Ryan spent the next twenty-two years": Should this be numerals?
"serving as an assistant coach in various capacities on different teams": This is unclear: how can he be an assistant coach in different capacities? I'm assuming he was coaching in different areas, but this could be made clearer.
"At the behest of Baltimore Ravens head coach Brian Billick, Ryan joined the team in 1999 and spent nine years in Baltimore.": Maybe "At the behest of their head coach Brian Billick, Ryan joined the Baltimore Ravens in 1999 and spent nine years there."
"Players have expressed their interest in playing for Ryan because of his player-friendly attitude": Players … player. Not too sure how to get around this.
"Ryan is also known for his highly esteemed defenses": I think it should be "highly-esteemed", but not sure this is a good phrase. Maybe something like "Ryan's teams are highly regarded [by critics? by commentators?] for their defensive capabilities…" And the following quote needs intext attribution.
"Rex then moved with her to Toronto, Canada": Minor point, but was this only after she completed her doctorate?
"he and his brother were frequently getting into trouble": How severe was this? In trouble with who?
"The reasons behind this were two-fold": Perhaps this is an unnecessary flourish?
"he was responsible for a multitude of jobs": Doesn't quite sound right. Maybe "had many [or a multitude if you prefer] jobs/responsibilities". And some examples may be nice.
Can "winning record" be linked somehow for non-specialists? Similarly, I always like a link on records (e.g. the later 8-8 record) for those of us who can never remember what all the numbers mean.
"When his father, Buddy, was hired…": Do we need his father's name again? And a repetition of Buddy in the same sentence. The next sentence also had two Buddies!
"newly named": Should it be "newly-named"?
"Ryan learned lessons on coaching talent and managing various personalities, which contributed to the defense's early success": This comes across as a little vague and woolly. Particularly as it comes from his autobiography. He "learned lessons"? What does this mean exactly?
Sorry for non-specialist questions, but could "points" and "rushing yards" be linked?
Again, pardon the ignorance, but "who retained Ryan as defensive coordinator and promoted him to assistant head coach": were these posts held at the same time?
"Ryan's 9-year tenure": Should it be nine-year?
"came to an end about an hour later": These seems unnecessarily informal.
"began to carry out a platform he outlined for the franchise's future": How can you carry out a platform?
"The basic idea was to get the players away from any distractions on or off the field": Again, unnecessarily informal. Why not "He planned to remove the players from distractions on and off the field".
"An unapologetic Ryan continued to exude confidence in the team": Why would he need to apologise?
"The Jets were one win short of tying the franchise record set by the 1998 team led by Bill Parcells": The record for what?
"Holmes allegedly quitting on the team against Miami": More informality, and "allegedly" is never great. He either did or didn't, and who is alleging?
I'm a little concerned with over-detailing in the Jets section. The rest of his career is fairly briefly outlined, but here we go into fairly minute detail like "the defense did not allow a touchdown" and "despite being overwhelmingly named the underdogs". There also seems to be a hint of sensationalist journalese creeping in with "stunned", "stray" and "humiliated". I think this section could stand a polish or two, but nothing major, and I appreciate that his most high-profile job needs more than his earlier ones.
"Ryan is often willing to defer the coin toss to the opponent to open the game on defense and "set the tone," generate turnovers and "create plays" as a result of these turnovers.": I'm afraid this loses me.
The coaching section reads a little too much like his personal manifesto, or defending him from critics. Rather than giving his views, some critical commentary would be better: what do critics say about his coaching or his team's play. What do analysts say about the team, and how effective his strategies are? I'm sure it exists somewhere. And do the fans like him? Does he her grief for being too defensive?
Finally, the Personal life section is a little trivia heavy. Why does an encyclopaedia article need to mention his weight loss surgery, or a foot-fetish video? Doesn't really seem all that important. Nor am I convinced about the acting section, but the rest looks fine.

Sorry for quite a long list, but most are minor and feel free to argue any of them as some may be personal preference. I don't see any major issues, and look forward to supporting. Sarastro1 (talk) 00:38, 1 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your comments Sarastro. I just wanted to mention a few things about the points you raised:

- "The reasons behind this were two-fold": I'm open to suggestions in regards to how to change this, I can't seem to come up with anything that flows properly. I do feel the sentence needs some type of preface, whatever that may be.
- I will address the point you raised about his job responsibilities. I'm currently away but I'll be returning home tomorrow so I'll take a look in the book and add those.
- I believe I removed most if not all of the sensationalist phrases.
- As with the job responsibilities, when I return home tomorrow, I will search for some commentary on his methods though it may be difficult. Typically teams in the NFL have their own identity and no one generally questions it unless everything falls apart but I'll give it a look.
- In regards to the personal section, the foot fetish mention was in there because there were multiple IPs clamoring for it when the news originally emerged and I get the feeling there may be future instances where there is some bickering that it doesn't appear in the article. For now though, I have removed that entry. In regards to the weight loss, Giants2008 bought up a point before I came to FAC that it is somewhat important given his job is coaching athletes and his habits now are beginning to reflect his work. I'm impartial to the acting section so I can either remove it or leave it.

Thank you again for your review. -- The Writer 2.0 ^Talk 16:24, 1 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Leaning to support: No problem on the two-fold thing if you want to keep it, and the changes look good. Also, no problem on weight loss, although I don't think it comes across that he was previously obese, and that this is a little hypocritical for a coach. I'll have another look when you have fixed up the last points you mentioned, but I'm leaning support now. I may wait for someone with more subject knowledge that me to take a look before switching to full support. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:06, 1 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I added a couple responsibilities mentioned in the book and I have also found some commentary regarding his coaching strategies on offense and defense. If further clarification is needed, let me know but I hope I have addressed the remainder of your concerns. -- The Writer 2.0 ^Talk 02:12, 3 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support: Happy to support now, everything looking good. A great piece of work, well done. Sarastro1 (talk) 23:03, 3 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your suggestions and support! -- The Writer 2.0 ^Talk 01:57, 4 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Source spot-checks – No close paraphrasing concerns, but I did see a few small verifiability issues in checks of seven references.

Reference 2 is used eight times; I checked the second and fifth uses. The second verifies the quote in the lead. The fifth states that he was a lineman at Southwestern Oklahoma, but I didn't see where it said he was a defensive end. Of course, this is a long story and it's possible I wasn't looking in the right area.
Ref 5 says Rex and Rob are fraternal twins. I'll assume ref 4, which is also here, covers the birth date and place.
Ref 10 verifies the Hall of Fame statement. No problems here.
Ref 23 doesn't state that Ryan was interviewed by the Ravens for the head coach position.
Ref 31 verifies its sentence fully. No problems here.
Ref 46 doesn't say that the Dolphins fans spat on Ryan at the MMA event.
Ref 71 seems to verify what it is citing. I assume the book cite covers the quotes. Giants2008 (Talk) 02:45, 1 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Appreciate the comments, Giants. I replaced Ref 2 (fifth use) with a new Ref, you're correct in your assumptions about Refs 4, 5 and 71. I added a new Ref along with Ref 46 and Ref 23 was fixed. -- The Writer 2.0 ^Talk 17:09, 1 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I won't strike what's up there so the spot-checks can stay visible to the directors, but my concerns are resolved. Giants2008 (Talk) 15:05, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you again. -- The Writer 2.0 ^Talk 16:45, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support per my comments last time, and it has improved since then. I did not see the autobiography concerns as seriously, but they've been cleaned up in any case.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:43, 2 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Kindly appreciated. -- The Writer 2.0 ^Talk 02:12, 3 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I'm probably not the best judge of articles about football of any description, but I've been asked to comment so I'll concentrate on prose and general presentation:

"Players have expressed their interest in playing for Ryan because of his player-friendly attitude" - can this be rephrased without the "players - playing - player" repetition?
"Following the divorce, his mother..." → "Following the divorce, their mother..." (you haven't singularised the boys at this stage).
"their brother Jim" - maybe mention this sibling at the start of the section? Was he older or younger?
"too much to handle as a single mother..." → " too much to handle for a single mother..."
"Rex followed his father to Illinois where the family settled in Prairie View" - who is included in "the family" here? Presumably not including the mother?
"College" section: this doesn't seem an adequate title for this section.
"Upon graduating from Southwestern, Ryan secured a job as a graduate assistant at Division I-AA (now Division I FCS) Eastern Kentucky in 1987 with the help of his father." The phrases don't seem to be in the right order. I would suggest "Upon graduating from Southwestern in 1987, with the help of his father Ryan secured a job as a graduate assistant at Division I-AA (now Division I FCS) Eastern Kentucky."
Who are the Colonels, and who are the Cowboys? Don't assume that all your readers will be familiar with the nicknames for US football teams
"The Bearcats" occurs twice in one sentence
I used the winning record link, and got confused because the link article does not explain what a "winning record" is. Perhaps more wins than losses, but this is not obvious
"New York Jets" section: more date information needed in the opening paragraph. When was the late season collapse? When was Ryan offered the coaching contract and when did he begin work? No specific date is given until the fifth paragraph which is confusing
Per above, I'm not exactly sure what year we're in, but I think it's still 2008 or possibly 2009. Either being so, the first such-and-such since 2004 doesn't seem a particularly big deal; it's only four or five years ago.
He "flashed an obscene gesture"; what does "flashed" mean in this context. In the UK, "flashing" means exposing your private parts; surely that's not what he did?
"Writing on the ESPN bus..." Reads very peculiarly - did he scrawl it with a felt-tip or what? Maybe a little more detail.
What in this context does "on the road" mean?
"quitting on the team against Miami" reads like informal sports journalism. What does it mean, and how does it relate to Holmes being "benched" (presumably substituted?) in the fourth quarter?
Sentence too long, convoluted: "After the Jets finished the season with a disappointing 8–8 record, Ryan admitted to having lost the pulse of the team and promised to no longer name captains, as Holmes, who was largely portrayed as the main source of discontent among multiple news outlets, was named one of six season-long captains." I lost the thread somewhere.
"Coaching philosophy" section. I don't think that so much of this section (about 80%) should be in quotation form. The text should largely be your own, with appropriate use of paraphrase.
"Ryan refuted this claim..." It's not really a "claim"; I would simply drop the word: "Ryan refuted this, stating..."
"running the football" → "running the ball" perhaps? "Football" has previously been used to describe the whole sport.
"and eventually reverted to their former run-oriented offense by the middle of the season" - the word "eventually" is redundant here.
Don't start fresh paragraphs with pronouns ("His defensive strategy...")
"Acting career": No hint of this before; how did it come about? Is it really a "career", or was this a once-off? Was it a real part or a cameo? Lots of questions.
What does the term "Coaching tree" mean? Also, isn't it a waste of time to have a heading (Assistant coaches under Rex Ryan who have become NFL head coaches) with nil data?

These are mainly pretty minor points, and shouldn't be too difficult to resolve. Brianboulton (talk) 10:05, 7 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your thoughts. You'll find I took care of the phrasing issues per your suggestions and provided additional explanation regarding the winning record, the dates, and the ESPN tour bus. I tried to cut down the quotes in the Coaching philosophy so hopefully it flows better. I linked coaching tree and removed the Assistant coaches subheading per your suggestion. In regards to the acting career I'd be happy to remove it if the changes I made still do not warrant its inclusion. -- The Writer 2.0 ^Talk 16:45, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Be sure to check scores such as 5–11 and 30–17 use the en dash, not hyphen
Fix redlink in "on the Colts' home field to qualify for the Divisional Playoffs"
Under Coaching tree, 1994–1995 should be 1994–95 per WP:YEAR Lemonade51 (talk) 18:12, 7 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. All scores have en dashes as far as I can tell. -- The Writer 2.0 ^Talk 20:51, 7 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support and Image Check. Images are ok. The two from flickr are commons-compatible. I have no issues with the writing. Refs are reliable and well-formatted. PumpkinSky talk 15:14, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your support. -- The Writer 2.0 ^Talk 18:12, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delegate notes

In the lead I noticed that New York Times was in standard font. Newspapers and journals, like book titles, should be in italics. Pls check for any similar instances in the article as well.
The subsections under Personal Life are very small, just one short paragraph each. It might look better if you created a Health subsection that covered both the dyslexia and weight-loss surgery paras, and a Media (or similarly titled) subsection that covered both the book and the acting. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:31, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I fixed the NYT mention and did not find any similar issues. I replaced the subsections and they do indeed look much better. Thank you for your comments. -- The Writer 2.0 ^Talk 18:12, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.