Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Northolt siege/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 13 December 2022 [1].

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Northolt siege

Nominator(s): HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:50, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

This article is about a hostage situation in London (safely inside the M25, Tim!) in 1985, mostly remembered today as the first time a police officer from a dedicated armed unit shot a suspect. Up until that point, most suspects cornered by armed police either surrendered or shot themselves. It marked a turning point from the Dixon of Dock Green image of an entirely unarmed police force (which was always a myth) towards the use of more professional teams of specialist armed officers to deal with armed criminality. I started this article last summer and have recently come back to it and expanded it. Pleasingly, all the books I needed for this were already on my shelf. I'm hoping a friend will be able to get to Northolt when the weather allows to take photos of the location as it today just so the reader has something to look at, as all photos of the siege appear to be held by agencies. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:50, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Image review. The given image is appropriately licensed and I note your comment about getting a picture of the site, but are there any images that would be valuable to include under a fair-use claim? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:32, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Hi Nikki, as far as I can tell there's essentially multiple versions of one still photograph from the incident and it's owned by Getty, meaning the policy hurdles to overcome are higher. It would have to be the subject of commentary in the article, which at the moment it isn't. In previous cases (like the Chandler's Ford shooting or the Iranian Embassy siege) there has been an image which itself has attracted attention. I could shoehorn in a sentence to the effect of "this photo exists" if you feel that would be useful and in keeping with the spirit of the policy. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 11:36, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

I don't think just 'this photo exists' would work, but what about photos of the individuals involved? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:10, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

:Hi Harry and Nikki, how are we going resolving this (or is it already)...? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 16:40, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

Hi Ian, I'm not sure it can be resolved. Chris (Thryduulf) has very kindly ventured over to Northolt to get pictures of the building the incident took place in. All photos of the incident are held by agencies so can't be used unless they're the subject of commentary in the article but there's no commentary in the sources about individual images (see Chandler's Ford shooting) for an example of a fair use image that is actually the subject of commentary) and none of the people involved are public figures so I don't think there's much hope of any more-relevant illustrations. That's mostly why I included the external link to the Thames News clip. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:59, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

Okay, so it sounds like there are no issues with images currently in the article -- ever the pragmatist, that was the main thing I wanted to check... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 19:25, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

Comments by Chris

• "Instead, she went to a neighbouring fat" - amusing typo there :-)
• "taking the sister and both daughters hostage" - both daughters? Only one has been mentioned up to this point.....?
• "Walker ventured away from the flat door" - I presume this means he went outside? The current wording is ambiguous as it could mean that he retreated further into the flat
• "but was not allowed to enter the Jacqueline's flat" - stray "the"
• "Walker eventually released his daughter" - given the previous sentence, could you clarify that he didn't release her out of the window?
• "He peered into the window of neighbouring flat" => "He peered into the window of a neighbouring flat"
• That's what I got. An interesting read - I was a teenager when this happened but don't recall it at all. Maybe I was too busy with my Christmas presents to watch the news...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:22, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

  Hi Chris, thanks very much for having a look and for spotting my typos! Believe I've addressed everything but please let me know if there's anything else that needs fixing. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:35, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:56, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Comments by Anarchyte

• I'm a bit strapped for time at the moment but here are some passing comments. I think "D11 was established following the shooting deaths of three police officers in 1966" should be before or incorporated into the "For pre-planned or protracted operations" sentence. It seems slightly out of place at the moment, and I think giving the backstory first would improve the flow. Also, should "it was professionalising and developing its capabilities" be "it professionalised and developed its capabilities"? This uses less words. I'd also like to see the definition of "D11" explored slightly, at least in the lede. I don't live in England so I'm not familiar with their naming protocols, and going from "the Met's firearm wing" to "D11" is not intuitive. If this is still open in a couple weeks and you're strapped for reviewers, feel free to give me a ping and I'll take a better look. Anarchyte (talk) 13:22, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  Hi Anarchyte, thanks for the feedback! I've reworded the background a little bit. D11 is a fairly arbitrary designation; most central departments of the Metropolitan Police have one and they tend to change with force restructures every few years (D11 became PT17, then SO19, and so on). It doesn't mean much but it gives an opportunity to vary the prose a little. If you have time to do a full review, I'd appreciate it but I understand IRL constraints all too well! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:46, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

• For the first bit of Siege, it is ambiguous who "her" is when two women have been mentioned. I assume it's Marlene, but I don't want to change it myself just in case.
• "Armed with a large kitchen knife, he took Jacqueline, her daughter, and his own daughter hostage" -- who is "her daughter". Is that Jacqueline's daughter?
• What happened to the other child in Rescue?

Anarchyte (talk) 11:06, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks again, Anarchyte! I'm afraid I reverted you slightly on "professionalising and developing"; in 1985 they were in the middle of a process of maturing, as exemplified by the fact that this was the first time they shot anyone. Alas, progress was mostly reactionary, but I'm trying to document some of the incidents that prompted change. The other child was released before the rescue, as covered in the "siege" section. Believe I've addressed everything else, though. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:26, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

No worries, thanks for the other changes. How does "continued professionalising..." sound? Anarchyte (talk) 15:17, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Anarchyte To me at least, it begs the question "continued from what?" as this is the first mention. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:00, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Anarchyte ? Gog the Mild (talk) 16:27, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. I'll have another read over within the next few days and then I'll vote. Anarchyte (talk) 03:54, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

• "One author of a history of the unit felt" - missing a word somewhere? Isn't clear.
• Do we know Marlene's surname?
• "Guided by commentary from an observer" - is this an uninvolved observer, or a police officer etc?
• The redirection link Anthony Long (police officer) seems out of place. It doesn't talk about the officer in that much detail, so it's a bit of a surprise. If you think it's relevant, perhaps a short statement in parentheses about Azelle Rodney (and then link through that name instead) would be better.

Once these are resolved I'll be happy to support. Anarchyte (talk) 07:17, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

@Anarchyte: Fixed the first and third. The second, I tend not name non-notable individuals who get caught up in notable incidents though no fault of their own, and the last, Long needs his own article really; he's undoubtedly notable, having been involved in another notable shooting besides Walker and Rodney and written a book about his experiences. Thanks again, HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:27, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

Support on the prose. Anarchyte (talk) 10:27, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Comments by Thryduulf

I have now uploaded three photographs of the location that can be added to the article if desired.

• 
• 
• 

Although not mentioned directly in the text, the news report linked in the article showed the flat in question to be on the top floor and to the right of the staircase. The doors, windows and balcony railings have been replaced but it otherwise seems little changed externally. Thryduulf (talk) 22:45, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Multiple footnotes state "Smith (2011)" but the bibliography references no such publication - there are works by Stephen Smith dated 2013 and 2019, and one by Maurice Punch dated 2011. Thryduulf (talk) 13:16, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Hey Chris, thank you for the photos! I've inserted two of them into the article. And thank you for pointing out the referencing error, I've fixed that now! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 11:52, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

• The picture captions use only "Poynter Court" (the building name), the map and lead section of the article just use "Gallery Gardens" (the street name). To improve the context I suggest adjusting the first picture caption to "Poynter Court, in Gallery Gardens, ..." and expanding the map caption to note that "Poynter Court is the building oriented east-west at the south end of the street" (not necessarily those exact words).
• Walker was presumed to be dead but regained consciousness a few minutes later, when he was arrested, 29 hours after barricading himself in the flat. I found this sentence awkward and had to read it a couple of times. I think rewording it to "Walker was presumed to be dead but was arrested when he regained consciousness a few minutes later, 29 hours after..." would be better. Thryduulf (talk) 10:12, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

  Thanks Chris, both good points and I've addressed both. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 10:54, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

  I have no further suggestions, so support. Thryduulf (talk) 21:23, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

Coordinator comment

Three weeks in and just the single general support. Unless this nomination makes significant further progress towards a consensus to promote over the next three or four days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:46, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Comments from Ceranthor

• Lead seems a bit long for such a short article
  • I always struggle with leads! It's difficult to decide what information to cull. See what you think now.
• "The Northolt siege was a hostage situation which developed in Northolt, West London, England, on 25 December 1985 and resulted in the shooting of Errol Walker, the first shooting by an officer from the Metropolitan Police's dedicated Firearms Wing (D11)." - might suggest splitting into two sentences? Seems a bit long for the lead
  • Done.
• "One officer found Walker lying on a sofa, holding the knife to the child, and fired three shots. Walker was knocked unconscious but both he and the girl survived." - I notice you don't state explicitly that he was hit; might also briefly mention where if you think that's relevant
  • I've made it explicit; the location (or at least what was hit vs what was aimed for) might be a little too complex for the lead.
• I do think it's a little shady that his wife is not named in the lead. Minor change, but an important one I think
  • She wasn't directly involved; in fact, now I've culled the lead, she's not mentioned at all.
• "Walker continued to commit crimes, now including armed robberies." - I'd replace now here, since I think it reads as "currently" and that's not what you're actually trying to say --> what about expanding to armed robberies or something like that but more concise?
  • Done.
• "Walker visited Marlene and the four-year-old child multiple times over several weeks but was not allowed to enter Jacqueline's flat.[6][7]" - because of a restraining order or equivalent, or just bc the sister did not allow it?
  • The latter. Restraining orders weren't really a thing in the 80s and domestic violence wasn't taken very seriously by the police (victims were usually given tea and sympathy then advised to pursue a civil claim against their assailants; thankfully things are better today).

This is an engaging, well-written article. I intend to support once these comments are addressed. ceranthor 18:36, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Hi Ceranthor, thank you very much for the review; I'm glad you found the article engaging. I hope I've addressed everything to your satisfaction but let me know if there's anything else. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 11:15, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

Support. My only remaining suggestion would be to remove the second sentence in the lead since you state near the end of the lead that "although the Firearms Wing had existed for almost 20 years, Northolt marked the first time one of its officers had opened fire, and the first use of stun grenades by British police." Nice work here. ceranthor 15:34, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the support and for the suggestion. I think I prefer it the way it is because that's the main reason this incident is notable; had the shooting been done by local officers or by D11/its successors in a later era, I doubt it would have attracted as much attention, at least from academics. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:03, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

Source review

Pass. No formatting issues, sources are reliable, no links to check. I did add ref=none to the cites as you're not using sfn. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:17, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:55, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.