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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 7 November 2024 [1].

Littlehampton libels

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Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) 17:52, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Littlehampton libels are one of those footnotes to footnotes of history. Some mildly insulting letters were sent round a small town, and it resulted in four trials and two appeals, and involved the Director of Public Prosecutions, the senior Treasury Counsel, a senior Scotland Yard detective and the Lord Chief Justice. The culprit, Edith Swan, fooled three juries and two judges, had another woman sent to prison twice and was declared not guilty before finally being convicted. And then Olivia Coleman played her in a film. This is a new article and I look forward to any constructive comments. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 17:52, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

UC

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Saving a space for now. UndercoverClassicist T·C 19:18, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • I would advise putting "England" somewhere in the first sentence, per the bit of WP:FIRST which can be summarised as "state the blindingly obvious in the first sentence".
  • The letters were sent from Edith Swan: sent by is the usual idiom, isn't it -- but why not written by, which seems to be the more important thing?
  • two notebooks were found in Littlehampton. They contained further libels: being very picky, is it a libel if it hasn't been sent/published? We're in meteor/meteorite or lava/magma territory here, perhaps.
  • A similar case of libellous letters ... which drew parallels: I think a person draws parallels (between X and Y), and therefore we need some kind of different phrasing that uses some group of people as its subject (or else "parallels were observed..."). I'm not immediately coming up with a good one, but will think on it if helpful.
  • It is based on England's south coast : Any reason not to cut based? I think that only really applies to e.g. an institution in this context.
  • She had a child, Dorothy, from a previous relationship. The couple married in Lewes in 1913 when she was twenty-two and he was thirty-four: I would clarify the second she as Rose rather than Dorothy.
  • they moved to Littlehampton in 1916: as you touch on in the footnote: is it accurate to talk about them as if that includes Bill, or was he away at sea for this period? What did he do after the sinking of the Nigel?
  • Information on their early lives is a bit scant. However, I think that as he would have spent recuperation time and shore leave with his wife, it's fair to say that "they" moved (and the source uses "they" too). There's also nothing about his post-Nigel work (during the war, at least). - SchroCat (talk) 15:06, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Although Ruth's children had been born out of wedlock, she called herself "Mrs Russell",: this is not, strictly speaking, a contradiction: we need to clarify that Ruth never married the father.
  • Bill accused Rose of having an affair with another man while he was away at sea, and she had to stay at a neighbour's house for several days, after he had hit her and thrown her out of the family home: slightly ambiguous whether this is Bill or the unnamed Casanova.
  • The couple argued occasionally and there was, according to Hilliard, "a persistent hum of conflict" between the two.: the word occasionally reads as "only rarely" to me, which makes the "persistent hum of conflict" an odd match. Can we find a word that gives more of a sense of this being a running if sporadic theme?
    I think so. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:28, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • lived in a rented cottage at 45 Western Road ... The Swan family were natives of Littlehampton and had lived at number 47 Western Road: there's an inconsistency here: would personally leave out the "number" in these and similar addresses.
  • Edith Swan was one of thirteen children of Edward and Mary Ann Swan: the thirteen children?
  • In May 1920 Swan wrote to the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children (NSPCC), falsely accusing Gooding of maltreating one of Russell's children on Easter Sunday: can we clarify the date of Easter Sunday to make the gap evident to readers? Appreciate it might take a little digging.
  • Is it worth clarifying what the NSPCC is? The way we write about it, it sounds like a government agency, rather than a charity.
  • and the impact they had on Rose's name: perhaps reputation for name as a more international and comprehensible term?
  • Bill went to many of those who received letters and pleaded her innocence: I think you can only plead your own innocence, but perhaps asserted?
  • Wikilink bail, if we're doing so for solicitor? I think we have it on second mention.
  • Superintendent Peel of Littlehampton police: he would have been of [West?] Sussex police, surely? Was he in command of the Littlehampton station?
  • Nicholls interviewed twenty-nine people connected to case: connected to the case?
  • Note e: we give the impression here that Wells was arrested for breaking the bank; suggest clarifying what his crime was, and that it happened much later.
  • Frederick Peel, the former superintendent, but by then the deputy chief constable of West Sussex, was present at the case and Bill Gooding overheard him saying that he still believed Rose was responsible for the letters: why not Gooding?
    • Both for clarity and to avoid "Bill Gooding overheard him saying that he still believed Gooding was responsible", with the close repetition
  • she petitioned the Home Office for both a reduction in sentence and on the basis she was innocent: I think we need to swap both and for to make this grammatical.
  • Is "eye-witness" better as eyewitness? I notice that we've not hyphenated "blotting paper", which seems oddly hyphen-averse given our hyphen-happiness here.
  • Swan died in a home: I think this is quite BrE: can we clarify that it's a nursing home (or an old people's home) rather than just a dwelling?
    • Tricky one to phrase this. The source has "Edith died at her last place of residence, the North View Home in Littlehampton. The building had been the town workhouse". I've done some general searches, but the only references to the place are in unreliable sources, half of which are about Swan living there. It's not clear what sort of "home" it was, or of what standard. (I was going for the blandest description so as not to point the reader toward any type of "home".) Any thoughts? - SchroCat (talk) 15:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If we can't find anything else, I'd give its name: "in the North View Home", which at least makes clear that it's some kind of institution. We do have this local news article calling it a council-run residential home: I know we don't normally consider local news to be RS, but this does seem to be exactly the sort of thing that local news would be able to get right, especially as here they're reporting on a local museum exhibition. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:31, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Found something better: it's referred to on the National Archives page. - SchroCat (talk) 19:18, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • age sixty-eight: either aged or at the age of.
  • many of the houses on Western Road—including numbers 45, 47 and 49—were all designated: need to lose the all here, I think: it's a minor contradiction at the moment.
  • the letters had been sent for over two years: does this mean "it was over two years since the letters were sent" or "the letters were sent over a period of two years"?

Support from Crisco 1492

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  • Lede feels a bit hefty - any chance of simplifying a bit?
  • "Two women in the thirties, both with black hair. " - In their 30s, or in the 1930s? Given that the source is dated 1921, I'm thinking the former, but I wanted to confirm. I think a less ambiguous phrasing would help.
  • in December 1920 she was found guilty and imprisoned for two weeks - Subject in this sentence was "Swan". Might need to be reworked
  • It is based on England south coast - Is this correct in BrE? I know I want to add an 's after England.
  • Kent - Might be worth a link for non-British readers.
  • by several neighbours - probably as explicit as the source gives, but "several neighbours" feels weasel-y.
    That's as good as I can frame it, based on the source. - SchroCat (talk) 08:27, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • although had been dismissed - Same question, is this correct in BrE? I'd normally go "though she had been"
  • At my current resolution (4k, 200%+125% zoom) the two maps are stacking, resulting in the prose having a "finger gun" shape. Is there a way to break the text a bit more gracefully?
    I don't think so (trying to format based on image placement is a way to madness, I feel). I have a wide screen and it doesn't cause issues, and improves with narrower screens. - SchroCat (talk) 08:27, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • pretending Rose was still in the house, to try and trick the Swans into thinking she was still in Littlehampton - still ... still
  • National Registration forms - worth a redlink?
    I don't think so (caveat: that's based on a web search alone, rather than any major digging_. - SchroCat (talk) 08:27, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Swans and Goodings houses - as these are possessives, should they have apostrophes?
  • that Gooding and Russell had both borrowed blotting paper from her. Bill Gooding and Russell both denied ever having borrowed it from her - Feels like we're repeating the names here.
    It's trying to clarify that it was Rose in the first instance and Bill in the second. I've tried to be consistent by referring to Rose as "Gooding" and then flagging up when I'm talking about Bill. - SchroCat (talk) 08:27, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • In July 1921 an appeal was heard before the Court of Criminal Appeal; Travers Humphreys was the barrister appearing on behalf of Gooding; he told the court that he was appearing having been personally instructed by the Attorney General and that the appeal had the approval of the Home Secretary, the court quashed both of Gooding's convictions without hearing any of the evidence. - This is a bit of a run-on. Aside from the two semi-colons (IIRC, outside of a list with commas, the prescription is a maximum of two sentences joined by a semi-colon), it feels like there is a verb missing between "the approval of the Home Secretary" and "the court quashed both"
  • To fucking old whore May, 49, Western Rd, Local - Comma after 49 in the original? (judging from the spelling neybor, I suspect so... and speaking of neybor, it may warrant a {{sic}} based on WP:SIC)
    The comma is there. It's the way I was I taught to address envelopes way back when, although the etiquette has now changed on the point. - SchroCat (talk) 08:27, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • they recommenced in early 1923. ... By October 1922 - Feels like there's a typo in one of these years
  • two sureties of £25 - each, or combined?
    It's not clarified in the source, unfortunately. - SchroCat (talk) 08:27, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The small matter of insulting letters - "small matter" sounds like a judgment call, and thus likely needs attribution.

Image review

Support from Tim riley

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I reviewed the draft a little while ago (on the article talk page), and my few quibbles were satisfactorily dealt with then. On rereading I find the text clear and very readable, the tone neutral and balanced, and the sourcing wide and apparently sound: there are, it is true, fifty citations to the main source, but they're balanced by multiple citations to four other important sources. You've done surprisingly well for illustrations, too. Meets all the FA criteria in my view, and I'm happy to add my support. – Tim riley talk 14:41, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Tim. Your help in the process was much appreciated, as always. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 14:45, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source check from PMC

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Just did the GAN, so won't have much to add prose-wise; I'll do a source review since I already tackled some of them at the GAN. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 01:24, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As usual, a solid mix of contemporary sources and later publications. No concerns with reliability; historical sources are used sparingly and generally supported by modern sources. As a nitpick, for refs where the date is unavailable (mainly some of the internet ones), you can use |date=n.d.. Otherwise I don't see any formatting problems. A few things I noticed when skimming:

  • I've added |date=n.d., but really dislike the outcome, which just looks odd and confusing in the citations. It doesn't work with one of the templates used, but I've added it. - SchroCat (talk) 13:08, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Refs 43 and 44 don't seem to support the content. Hilliard p 47 does not seem to discuss correspondence between Blackwell and Williams, although it does get into the police believing Swan over Gooding because of her respectability. Ref 44 is a listicle summary of Cockayne's book, it also doesn't mention Blackwell or Williams. It briefly mentions the same respectability issue, but in such a broad way that it doesn't really add much here. Honestly, I might chuck it entirely.
    • [Now refs 44 and 45, not 43]: Oops - I popped in the wrong name. It was between Peel, not Blackwell, and Williams. - SchroCat (talk) 14:04, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • I was going to protest that it doesn't mention Williams either, but footnote 33, the citation after the large quote from Peel, mentions that it's a letter to Williams, so fair.
  • The other use of Ref 44 could be replaced with citing Cockayne's book, p 133, which from GBooks preview looks like it supports the content.
  • It was a bit difficult to find how Ref 57 supports the content, although I eventually realised it had to be the Dec 21 one that the "strong language" warning is about. Would you consider putting a location parameter to point directly to the letter that contains the quote? Something like |location=Sussex Autumn assizes indictments 1921 would work.
    • [Now refs 58, not 57]: that's a bit tricky (unless you have a workaround). The NA reference is used to support two different bits in the article. while adding |location=Sussex Autumn assizes indictments 1921 would work for one of them, it wouldn't for the second. Any thoughts? - SchroCat (talk) 13:11, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Our article says the film was "based on" Hilliard's history, but it looks like it might have been Cockayne's actually. The source cited in article only says that Hilliard "brought the case back to public notice", while this Guardian article says Cockayne had the film deal and worked as a consultant on it.

That's all, folks. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 00:44, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks PMC. Mostly dealt with, but there is a query on one of the points. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 14:05, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, happy to do it. I've replied above. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 02:19, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks PMC. The last point now addressed. If you have any more, I'd be happy to see them. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:53, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, did another skim and I'm satisfied that this passes the source check :) ♠PMC♠ (talk) 06:22, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

750h

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feel free to refuse my suggestions (with justification).

lead
  • given the length of this article i doubt it should have five lead paragraphs. I'd merge the third and the fourth paras.
background
  • several days, after Bill
  • although she was dismissed after she was accused ==> "although she was dismissed after being accused"
events
  • Some of the post was in the form of a letter ==> "Some of the posts were in the form of a letter"
    I think the original is slightly stronger, grammatically speaking. - SchroCat (talk) 09:36, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • was in the house, to try and trick is this comma necessary?
  • to "Bloody buggering old Russell", the other to "Bloody old whore Miss Swan". i'd add "and" before "the". personal suggestion.
    It sounds odd to me with the 'and' - SchroCat (talk) 09:36, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • who came to the conclusion that, with ==> "who concluded that, with"
  • The same week a red i'd change "The" to "that". sounds a bit weird to me. personal opinion though.
  • all of them, and obtained their remove the comma
  • sheets of blotting-paper i think "blotting paper" without the hyphen is more common.
  • had both borrowed blotting-paper from her ditto
  • Gooding's handwriting or spelling i'd use "nor" instead of "or".
    I think I'll stick with or, which sounds more natural. - SchroCat (talk) 09:36, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • cottage was let to Violet and Constable George should it be "let" or "lent"/"left"?
    'Let' is right. - SchroCat (talk) 09:36, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • the writing, then threw it ==> "the writing, and then threw it"
  • with invisible ink which they add a comma before "which"
  • shown to her; she replied add a comma after "replied".
    Not needed in BrEng. - SchroCat (talk) 09:36, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • assumptions made on the basis of the ==> "assumptions made based on the"
aftermath and legacy
  • was released 2023 ==> "was released in 2023"
  • MOS:GEOLINK: [[Shiptonthorpe]], [[East Yorkshire (district)|East Yorkshire]] ==> [[Shiptonthorpe|Shiptonthorpe, East Yorkshire]]
    I don't think GEOLINK supports that: it seems to suggest leaving the second location unlinked (with the example [[Quothquan]], South Lanarkshire, Scotland), so I've changed to that format. - SchroCat (talk) 09:36, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

that's all I got @SchroCat:! thanks for the article. 750h+ 03:50, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks 750 - all sorted in these edits. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:36, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Happy to support. 750h+ 10:18, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

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  • Hope I'm not queue-jumping, 750h.
  • Would it be possible to mention in the first paragraph the general timeframe and/or subject matter of the libels?
  • "who lived with her parents" This is worth mentioning in the lead paragraph?
  • "libel" (linking to "defamation") This should probably pipe to criminal libel, the crime (whereas defamation is a civil matter), or arguably defamatory libel (but that article is in terrible shape).
  • "Swan sued again" Can a private prosecution be referred to as "suing"?
More soon.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:40, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Bill accused Rose ..." I might split this sentence somewhere, the "he, Bill" has the feeling of awkwardness.
  • "the bruises he caused." Perhaps "the bruises he inflicted."
  • "meaning the recipients had to pay for the delivery of the messages" I think they had the option of refusing, and if they accepted, they had to pay double the postage rate, see here. To add injury to insult, postage rates apparently went up about then!
  • "Hillard notes ..." perhaps this could be a footnote?
  • You have blotting-paper red-linked. Is it worth it?
  • "In December 1923 she petitioned the Home Office both for a reduction in sentence and on the basis she was innocent." Perhaps the end, ...and for her release on the ground she was innocent."
That's it. Very interesting.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All done, bar the postage rate one. I'm trying to find a stronger source than the local paper, which isn't the clearest description of the 'double penalty' charge. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 16:59, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Cheers, Wehwalt. All done in these edits. Many thanks for your eagle eye, as always. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 17:46, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Wehwalt (talk) 17:55, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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