Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/FC Steaua Bucureşti/archive2
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was not promoted 02:59, 11 September 2007.
This article has undergone another FAC nomination a few months ago and it failed. However, this time, I feel that all FAC-criteria have been taken care of and that mistakes that lead to the previous FAC denial have been fixed. Thank you. Vladi 11:39, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- Oppose. The history section is hopelessly POV, being written from a fan's perspective. There have been so many controversial things about Steaua, especially before 1989, when it was Ceauşescus' favourite team, or even before, but none of these issues were mentioned, except for this apologetic bit:
- Valentin Ceauşescu admitted in a recent interview that he had done nothing else than to protect his favourite team from FC Dinamo Bucureşti's sphere of influence
This is simply showing only one side's perspective. bogdan 19:43, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- I'm afraid I'll have to contradict with you. I believe the article is rich enough in footnotes and references in order not to be considered POV. Whether one is or is not a supporter of one of Steaua's rival teams does not entitle them, in my opinion to oppose an article simply out of this reason. Yes, I am a Steaua fan, but the History section is entirely based on references and I tried to maintain a neutral stance as much as possible. It has never been proven that Valentin Ceausescu (and in no way Nicolae Ceausescu!) was ever involved in the life of a team in unethical ways and the paragraph about him covers as much as one can cover about a controversial topic. However, if any user outside Romania (because you are Romanian) opposes the article specifying this reason, I shall look into it. Vladi 20:14, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- Just because an article is rich in footnotes and references doesn't mean it can't be POV. BTW, thanks for considering my opinion not important and waiting for a user from outside Romania. bogdan 20:18, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- And how exactly do you find this POV? I have no knowledge whether an article has the benefit of doubt over its POV-ness. If you have any suggestions where to find any articles marked "not POV" underneath, I will be glad to refer to them. And I said I waited for someone outside Romania not because of me being an anti-Romanian (because I too am Romanian), but because of the fierce rivalry existent among the 3 major Bucharest teams, which makes any article written about them vulnerable to unjust comments on behalf of fans of rival teams coming from Romania. And you using the term apologetic about a sentence which, in my opinion, has nothing special about it, made me, without accusing you of anything, think about it. Vladi 20:26, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- So you think that only fans of Steaua should edit the article on Steaua, right? Well, WP:NPOV says that in cases like this, NPOV is achieved when all parties reach a consensus. bogdan 20:38, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- If you give me a copy-paste of where I said only Steaua fans were entitled to edit the article, I'll retreat it from the list. I was referring to the fact the it has never been proven that Ceausescu was involved in the life of the team using unethical methods. Unfortunately, information outside Romania regarding this topic is simply anectodal. Neither do us, Romanians know much about the true reality of Communist years, but until something has been proven, no one can claim it is official and reliable information. However, I will take your advice into consideration and add one or two sentences to the section. Vladi 20:51, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- I think it's certain Steaua did have some unethical advantages over other teams, the extent of them is debatable. One of these advantages was that they were allowed to take gifted younger footballers from other teams and gave them two choices: to do the military service in a regular unit or to play for Steaua. Some of them stayed for Steaua even after military service (not all, though: for example, Gica Popescu quickly returned to Craiova after playing for Steaua for some months). bogdan 21:30, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- This is a whole different story and it's about sports during Communism. You are referring to the fact that players would not move between teams as they do today, in a capitalistic fashion. Clubs were not companies and players were not professional. Therefore players would move to a different team only as arrangements between the governing trade unions of the respective clubs. Players did come to Steaua using this procedure in the same way they moved to teams of Ministry of Internal Affairs, which was the supreme body for sports back then (namely Dinamo), student teams (Sportul Stud., Univ. Craiova, Poli Timisoara, U Cluj) and yes, even workers' teams (Rapid, Otelul, FC Brasov, etc.) And this is exactly what I was arguing: that any implication of Ceausescu, even though possible, is, at the moment, nothing more than debatable. I hope that the supplements I made to the text though are good enough. Vladi 21:45, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- I am aware of the differences in the system. I just say it would be notable to say that the system was skewed in favour of Steaua and Dinamo, who were allowed to take players from other clubs without their club's consent (e.g. Gheorghe Hagi) and sometimes even the player's consent (e.g. Gica Popescu). Rapid, Craiova or other teams did not have this privilege. bogdan 08:58, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Done There. :) I created a new section called HISTORICAL CONTROVERSIES in which I pretty much explained all these debates. Hope I managed to keep a neutral stance. Let me know if there's anything else. Vladi 10:29, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- I am aware of the differences in the system. I just say it would be notable to say that the system was skewed in favour of Steaua and Dinamo, who were allowed to take players from other clubs without their club's consent (e.g. Gheorghe Hagi) and sometimes even the player's consent (e.g. Gica Popescu). Rapid, Craiova or other teams did not have this privilege. bogdan 08:58, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- This is a whole different story and it's about sports during Communism. You are referring to the fact that players would not move between teams as they do today, in a capitalistic fashion. Clubs were not companies and players were not professional. Therefore players would move to a different team only as arrangements between the governing trade unions of the respective clubs. Players did come to Steaua using this procedure in the same way they moved to teams of Ministry of Internal Affairs, which was the supreme body for sports back then (namely Dinamo), student teams (Sportul Stud., Univ. Craiova, Poli Timisoara, U Cluj) and yes, even workers' teams (Rapid, Otelul, FC Brasov, etc.) And this is exactly what I was arguing: that any implication of Ceausescu, even though possible, is, at the moment, nothing more than debatable. I hope that the supplements I made to the text though are good enough. Vladi 21:45, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- I think it's certain Steaua did have some unethical advantages over other teams, the extent of them is debatable. One of these advantages was that they were allowed to take gifted younger footballers from other teams and gave them two choices: to do the military service in a regular unit or to play for Steaua. Some of them stayed for Steaua even after military service (not all, though: for example, Gica Popescu quickly returned to Craiova after playing for Steaua for some months). bogdan 21:30, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- If you give me a copy-paste of where I said only Steaua fans were entitled to edit the article, I'll retreat it from the list. I was referring to the fact the it has never been proven that Ceausescu was involved in the life of the team using unethical methods. Unfortunately, information outside Romania regarding this topic is simply anectodal. Neither do us, Romanians know much about the true reality of Communist years, but until something has been proven, no one can claim it is official and reliable information. However, I will take your advice into consideration and add one or two sentences to the section. Vladi 20:51, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- So you think that only fans of Steaua should edit the article on Steaua, right? Well, WP:NPOV says that in cases like this, NPOV is achieved when all parties reach a consensus. bogdan 20:38, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- And how exactly do you find this POV? I have no knowledge whether an article has the benefit of doubt over its POV-ness. If you have any suggestions where to find any articles marked "not POV" underneath, I will be glad to refer to them. And I said I waited for someone outside Romania not because of me being an anti-Romanian (because I too am Romanian), but because of the fierce rivalry existent among the 3 major Bucharest teams, which makes any article written about them vulnerable to unjust comments on behalf of fans of rival teams coming from Romania. And you using the term apologetic about a sentence which, in my opinion, has nothing special about it, made me, without accusing you of anything, think about it. Vladi 20:26, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- Just because an article is rich in footnotes and references doesn't mean it can't be POV. BTW, thanks for considering my opinion not important and waiting for a user from outside Romania. bogdan 20:18, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- I'm afraid I'll have to contradict with you. I believe the article is rich enough in footnotes and references in order not to be considered POV. Whether one is or is not a supporter of one of Steaua's rival teams does not entitle them, in my opinion to oppose an article simply out of this reason. Yes, I am a Steaua fan, but the History section is entirely based on references and I tried to maintain a neutral stance as much as possible. It has never been proven that Valentin Ceausescu (and in no way Nicolae Ceausescu!) was ever involved in the life of a team in unethical ways and the paragraph about him covers as much as one can cover about a controversial topic. However, if any user outside Romania (because you are Romanian) opposes the article specifying this reason, I shall look into it. Vladi 20:14, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- Well, I think there are many things wrong or missing... I think it would need a peer-review from an expert and I'm certainly not one. I could name a few things:
- Gigi Becali sold Steaua in 2005 to his nephews in order to avoid being impounded by the tax authority, together with other assets of him. "Gigi Becali si-a vandut toate actiunile de la Steaua nepotilor sai" (prosport)
- AFC Steaua had a dozen million euros of unpaid taxes and to avoid paying them, a new company was set up and received the assets of old Steaua. The old association filed bankruptcy and never paid its debts. "Romanii platesc datoriile Stelei" (evz)
- An FA should be comprehensive on such things, not just have the history as it is presented on the official site. bogdan 19:30, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
- Done Nice to see you again. I admit you may be right on some topics. I edited the OWNERSHIP section with the information needed and I also added some lines about the racism-related issues around the fans. However, if you compare the history section on the official website and the one presented here, you'll notice an important difference. Also, the article has been peer reviewed a few weeks ago ([1]) and the problems raised there have been taken care of. Vladi 16:55, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- BTW, are you sure the chairman of Steaua is Gigi Becali? A google search shows the name of the Executive Director and President of the Administrative Council of Steaua is Valeriu Argăseală. bogdan 14:26, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- Done Been meaning to change that for a while actually. Vladi 16:55, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.