Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sherman Bergman (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. J04n(talk page) 17:56, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sherman Bergman

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BLP appears to fail WP:N. The only "notability" appears to derive from unreliable sources and former experience(s) as an amateur boxer; a kickboxer who once lost to Jean-Claude Van Damme and Gary Daniels; a long career as an uncredited, movie extra and a school teacher. Article also appears to vio WP:PROMO. X4n6 (talk) 22:48, 7 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. X4n6 (talk) 22:48, 7 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2016 March 7. —^{cyberbot I}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 23:01, 7 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. The Bergman page has many legit sources from the Miami Herald archives from the 1980s-present day, Official Karate Magazine, Day by Day in Jewish Sports History, and the STAR Computer Ratings for kickboxing. As a fighter, Bergman scored 56 knockouts (sourced in the Miami Herald) and is the only fighter credited with knocking down Jean-Claude Van Damme in a sanctioned match. He was rated at one point in the top 20 in the world ratings. His amateur boxing career, movie career and educational career are sidebars to his kickboxing career. His kickboxing career is clearly documented over 4-decades. His retirement merited an entire page in the Miami Herald Sports page. This page can be shored up, if needed, but should not be deleted. Thank you.FranciscoFWPerez (talk) 04:14, 8 March 2016 (UTC)FranciscoFWPerez — FranciscoFWPerez (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Comment. I respect the work you've put into this BLP and appreciate your willingness to improve it. But as you noted, it still only achieves N through the subject's kickboxing career. But it fails there, per WP:NKICK. Also, having fight results published; knocking down Van Damme, only to still lose in the first round; or being the subject of a single human interest write up in the local newspaper, don't inherently confer notability.

There are other problems. There are dozens of unsourced fights listed. They could vio WP:COI, WP:PROMO or WP:OR, but they need to be sourced. You also seem to know the subject's amateur boxing doesn't meet WP:NBOX; his local teaching doesn't meet WP:NACADEMIC; and being a movie extra doesn't meet WP:NACTOR. But again, the BLP fails NKICK, so on that basis alone it should be deleted. X4n6 (talk) 07:57, 8 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. Peter Rehse (talk) 11:41, 8 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Subject does not meet the notability criteria for boxers or kickboxers. Notability is not inherited from others. Linking this article to everything you can find about anyone he ever fought (amateur or pro, boxer or kickboxer) does not show he meets WP:GNG since there is a lack of significant independent coverage about him. Routine sports coverage also does not count towards showing notability. He doesn't meet any SNG or GNG.Mdtemp (talk) 16:54, 8 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Article's main claims to notability seems to be who he competed against or was a sparring partner of, but notability isn't inherited. There's no evidence that he meets the notability criteria for kickboxers, boxers, or actors. Lots of passing mentions are insufficient to show notability via WP:GNG. Papaursa (talk) 00:32, 9 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Does not meet notability guidelines. Vanity article created and maintained by Bergman SPAs (all likely socks of each other) – see my proof below. Softlavender (talk) 08:16, 9 March 2016 (UTC); edited 02:54, 14 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Vanity article, no notability seen in numerous online searches. When I limited my search to pre-2005 sources (written before this Wikipedia article), all I found was this 1998 letter to the editor of Black Belt magazine, the letter signed by Sherman Bergman. After 2005, the level of self-promotion rises greatly, with lots of the same stuff being added to IMDb and other places such as this local newspaper article written by Bergman, published in 2014. If the guy wasn't listed in the amateur boxing record books then we don't need to tell readers about him. Binksternet (talk) 14:08, 9 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. A few points. The Miami Herald has covered Bergman's kickboxing career from 1988-2010. If you look at the references you will find a link and see numerous reports for 3-decades. The Miami Herald is a local paper with between 140-190,000 issues sold each day. Very few kickboxers have had such extensive coverage of their fight careers in the Herald as Bergman. Next, there are two links to Offical Karate Magazine from 1985-1986, in which well-known kickboxing sports writer Barry Harrell reported Bergman as one of the most promising prospects in his weight division, Offical Karate was sold nationally. There are links to News For You which covered Bergman's knockout over Bernardo Jua. This was an educational newspaper sold nationally in the USA. Foundacion Brazil was a Brazilian Paper and covered a report on a few of Bergman's fights. The knockdown of Jean-Claude Van Damme is very notable in kickboxing, because this was Van Dammes only knock down in sanctioned competition. The loss to Gary Daniels also has merit, because of Daniels 34 victories, 33 by knockout, only Bergman lasted the distance. Kickboxing never had a fight data base like boxing, until Paul Maslak started the STAR Ratings for kickboxing. Maslak, through emails, has confirmed 21 of Bergman's pro fights (19-1-1, 19 knockouts) from 1980-2010. These verified fights are noted on Bergman's fight record. I believe that while Bergman is far from famous as is kickboxing champion Don Wilson, his fight career is notable for his knockout record and his accomplishments against top fighters, though losses, were standout performances. Thank you.FranciscoFWPerez (talk) 01:00, 12 March 2016 (UTC)FranciscoFWPerez. — FranciscoFWPerez (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

What emails? Emails aren't a reliable source. If the knockdown of Van Damme was so important, why was it not carried more widely? The problem here is that Bergman was on his high school newspaper staff and then as an adult he was professionally connected to the Miami Herald, which is why he gets favorable and disproportionate coverage by their reporters. The Barry Harrell piece is not enough to establish notability: lots of fighters are praised as promising prospects but then don't achieve national fame. Nothing here satisfies WP:NKICK or even just WP:GNG because of the barely existing coverage outside of Bergman's friends at the Miami Herald. Binksternet (talk) 02:19, 12 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note FranciscoFWPerez, the requirements for determining kickboxers' notability are very clear and very specific and you have never addressed them. See them at WP:NKICK. Voters have repeatedly said, the subject does not meet these requirements. X4n6 (talk) 07:53, 12 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE: Article was entirely created by a massive Bergman SPA sock farm (both registered and IP):

This article was entirely created by a Bergman SPA sock farm, who edited exclusively on Sherman Bergman and his father Hank Bergman, and any other article they could stick either of those names into:

And 76 IP SPA socks

DavidToma called this article "my article" [1] in March 2008, even though the article was created in 2005 by 4.231.192.65, and added to extensively by the other IPs and 18 of the other registered SPA socks by March 2008, and DavidToma's contributions did not start until September 2007.

Between March 2009 and July 2011 sockpuppet Legwarmers1980 uploaded 17 newspaper clippings referring to Sherman Bergman to Flickr: the Flickr account ID tag is "legwarmers1980", and the Flickr account is exclusively devoted to Sherman Bergman and his father Hank Bergman [2]. These 17 Flickr uploads by Legwarmers1980 constitute 17 of the citations in the article.

All of the IP socks from 2005–2008 geolocate to Wichita, as does this clear talk-page posting by DavidToma logged out in September 2008: [3]. All of the IP socks from 2009–present geolocate to Miami (Bergman's hometown), except for two which geolocate again to Wichita.

-- Softlavender (talk) 09:43, 12 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be a leaning towards that all the information in this page is made up. A bit perplexed. The Miami Herald covered Bergman's career for 5-decades because he is from Miami-Dade County and his victories merited the write ups. To imply, that Bergman has an inside connection to the paper is bizarre to say the least. Offical Karate Magazine was published Nationally. Barry Harrell was highly respected. Bergman's knockout over Morsak was covered by Offical Karate. Paul Maslak is a legend in record keeping for kickboxing. Many kickboxing results are not online. Not every reference in the world is online. Links to flickr are scans of various newspaper articles which do not appear online. To imply that I only created pages link to Bergman is a bold face lie. I created Carl Starling, Al Migliorato, Bobby Halpern, etc. I am a big fight fan and worked hard on everything I posted. FranciscoFWPerez (talk) 16:20, 14 March 2016 (UTC)FranciscoFWPerez[reply]

Nobody here is saying that the information is false or fabricated. People are saying that it isn't important enough for Wikipedia. Karate Magazine mentioned Bergman in passing, so it's not enough coverage to establish notability. Nothing wrong with being a fight fan, but the rules for notability must be followed. Binksternet (talk) 00:42, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - doesn't pass WP:GNG, and fails the criteria for kickboxers. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 13:03, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Does not meet established notability guidelines. EricSerge (talk) 17:03, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.