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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to The Matrix (series). There seems to be broad support for Sceptre's proposed merger of the other articles as well, but as they were not part of this AfD I have not done so as part of this close. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 22:48, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Matrix (fictional universe)

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Matrix (fictional universe) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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unreferenced, possible original research, reads like an essay written in-universe style. unencyclopedic. Rob Sinden (talk) 12:07, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It may be important enough to have a breakout article, but is this really the article you mean? I'm not doubting its notability, just that this article isn't very encyclopedic, and is, quite frankly an unreferenced mess. Perhaps what should happen is that elements of this article should be incorporated into The Matrix (franchise) article, until the quality is of a standard to warrant a breakout article. Rob Sinden (talk) 15:57, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, but merge Matrix (reality) and Mega City (The Matrix) (and possibly also Zion (The Matrix)) into it. And it'll need a big rewrite.

    IIRC, this article was originally created to collect all the revelations about the fictional universe's history into one place (and to help prevent such descriptions clogging up the plot summary of The Matrix Reloaded, though of course that article currently has its own issues), and I still think a good article covering that would be a useful thing to have.

    However, I've never been sure whether this article should discuss only the virtual reality system the characters plug into, or cover the more general "fictional universe" in which all the stories take place. If we decide it's the latter, perhaps Zion (The Matrix) should also be merged into the article. Again, whatever happens, it'll need to be extensively rewritten...

    As for reference sources: it might be acceptable to cite dialogue from the film (and games, and comics) and quote it in a footnote reference, as has been done in the featured video game article Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater#cite_note-17. To quote the policy:

Primary sources ... artistic and fictional works such as poems, scripts, screenplays, novels, motion pictures... Our policy: Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. Without a secondary source, a primary source may be used only to make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is verifiable by a reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages from the novel to describe the plot, but any interpretation of those passages needs a secondary source. Do not make analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about information found in a primary source.
Does piecing together the history of a fictional world from statements made in different films count as "interpretation" that would require a secondary source?

If all that's not possible, I'd prefer the core elements to be moved to The Matrix (franchise), as User:EEMIV and User:Robsinden suggested, rather than deleted entirely.

--Nick RTalk 17:12, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Cirt (talk) 04:48, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep. Sjc (talk) 08:10, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep - The deletion arguments are flawed (for this reason): non-notability (not policy), WP:NOR (not true), unreferenced (that can be improved, much like the style problems), "unencyclopedic" (vague term). - Draeco (talk) 09:29, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Related to WP: OR and WP: Synthesis. It does not attempt to establish research by presenting any reliable third party source in an inline citation allowing other editors to verify the information. Do not agrree with merge because of the lack of any sourced material at this time. ♠ B.s.n. ♥R.N.contribs 10:38, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep to collect information for various articles in one place. This is a good time for allowing the notability of various works to spill over into another articles. Other problems are fixable, and this is a good merge target. Nerfari (talk) 11:27, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If that is your rational, wouldn't a portal, project, or even the main article talk page be more suitible for compiling information. ♠ B.s.n. ♥R.N.contribs 12:00, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect as per 92.28.76.45 Simonm223 (talk) 21:25, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd really like to see this Merged somewhere. Abductive (reasoning) 02:44, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep some of the content and all of the history, probably the general merge suggested by Sceptre is the best. Eluchil404 (talk) 07:56, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. To paraphrase what I posted elsewhere, as this problem seems to be endemic, many of the editors voting for "keep" would agree that the information on this page is inconcise and unenyclopedic, and would need a hefty rewrite to remove any unsourced information and original research. I'd have thought therefore that they would agree that this article should not exist in its current form. It doesn't appear that anyone would be willing to rewrite this article as it would be too daunting a task. Hence my proposal for deletion. After deletion, perhaps the information could be added concisely to the The Matrix (series) page bit by bit, and if it warrants another break-out article then it would eventually evolve naturally into that article. I have this question: What "information" is actually contained on this page that meets wikipedia policy? Rob Sinden (talk) 10:16, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say that the Overview and See Also sections could be merged more or less as is. That's several paragraphs of usable material. It's not brilliant prose and lacks inline citations, but neither of those failings require deletion to address. Eluchil404 (talk) 11:16, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, so this removes the bulk of the article (the really messy bit). Then, if these two sections were added to the Matrix (series) page, then this page could be deleted? Let's do it! Rob Sinden (talk) 11:34, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, after a merge a page should generally be kept as a redirect to preserve attribution. See Wikipedia:Merge and Delete. Eluchil404 (talk) 07:06, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
fair enough. Rob Sinden (talk) 08:57, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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