Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Will & Grace characters

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. Doczilla _{Ohhhhhh, no!} 19:10, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

List of Will & Grace characters

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List of non-notable characters that is already covered at the main article for Will & Grace. There is a reckless amount of unsourced material and nothing to justify its own article. Even the main character articles like Will Truman or Grace Adler have severe problems with sourcing but we have to start somewhere. Jontesta (talk) 17:33, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Jontesta (talk) 17:33, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Television and Lists. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 17:38, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep No BEFORE articulated. Complaint suggests most (all?) problems are solvable by editing/trimming, and has an obvious merge target. Jumping to AfD is unwarranted. And, since the topic of "Characters of X" is "X", notability for a list of characters article isn't even in question. Jclemens (talk) 22:25, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with most of the points you've raised, but I'd contest that last point. Notability isn't inherited. Just because Will & Grace is notable doesn't mean a list article about the characters appearing in the show should be kept on the same principle. But, as I said, I agree with the majority of your points. I don't have a strong opinion on this yet. An AfD may not be the optimal venue for a merge discussion, but it gets the job done, and I suspect any trimming is going to be more of a hatchet job. DonIago (talk) 03:05, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Inherited" isn't a sensible way to articulate the relationship between X and Characters of X. "Characters of" X is an element or subset of X. The notability of my left hand is not inherited from me like the notability of my son might be; one is a subset, one is an offspring. Jclemens (talk) 05:15, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as a reasonable WP:SIZESPLIT from the main article – details about recurring characters are generally good as encyclopedic content, though I agree that the current list is too long (removing the list of one-time guest stars would probably be a good place to start trimming) and should have better sources (in general, character lists across Wikipedia tend to be poorly sourced, but that's distinct from encyclopedic relevance). RunningTiger123 (talk) 18:26, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: per WP:SIZESPLIT. "List of characters" pages for notable TV shows are very common on Wikipedia. I know that WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a good argument against deletion, but sometimes, well, other stuff does actually exist: in other words, it's common practice, like a "List of episodes" page or a "List of awards and honors" page, when the parent page is too long to support it. Toughpigs (talk) 18:33, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - albeit somewhat on the fence. I think given the program's historical importance in terms of queer representation on American television, which was naturally expressed through its choice of characters and sometimes casting, Will & Grace has as much right (maybe more) to have a list of characters than many other shows which also do; as the above user says, it is basically common practice. Additionally a list like this is not appropriate for the main article, so if it is deemed that there are enough recurring characters to warrant this treatment, a separate list makes sense. There are perhaps concerns about how much of the existing content can be sourced anywhere other than just by citing the episodes in which events happen, in my opinion. However recommendations for starting improvements would be: a) removing most (all?) one-time-only characters, since if those have any notability it will go on the "list of episodes" or individual episode pages; b) providing number of episodes next to each listed character, which helps readers understand relative importance of a character to the program; c) sorting them by season appearance or some kind so that the page serves as a useful encyclopedic reference to the television series rather than to the world of the series, which is the fan's prerogative; and d) perhaps porting over the more complex table of supporting characters from the main article - it serves little purpose there. The Cardigan Kid (talk) 07:36, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per the comments above and per WP:SIZESPLIT. Will and Grace was/is very popular and had 11 seasons with a lot of guest stars and this cannot all fit in the same page. I have looked online and have seen many sources showing SIGCOV of the characters and show and this is before evening looking through archive and newspapers. I agree that the current page needs work but it is very possible to improve by sourcing the cast and adding real world information and reception to improve the page. I would begin improving it now but my time is currently limited as I am in the middle of exams; however, I have added some (not all) sources that can be used for improvement on the talk page.DaniloDaysOfOurLives (talk) 23:40, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I share DaniloDaysOfOurLives’s sentiment. This was a popular, longstanding, and groundbreaking prime time television series on a major network, when that mattered. Sources can be found easily, especially about the guest stars who played themselves (or semi fictional avatars), like Cher and Elton John. Bearian (talk) 02:41, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and cleanup, per The Cardigan Kid. Editors saying that size splits trump notability need to review WP:AVOIDSPLIT. But this was a notable series with sufficient coverage for its ensemble cast. I might agree with cleaning up the one-time minor appearances, but that can be done through editing, not AFD. Shooterwalker (talk) 15:05, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.