User talk:StartGrammarTime
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Yuka Kitamura draft feedback
[edit]Hi there, it's Gracen from the Teahouse! I've been working on Draft:Yuka Kitamura in my free time over the past couple days. You mentioned being willing to help out with the article; it's pretty short right now and I plan to extend it a little bit more (hopefully not too much, I'd like to avoid WP:CRUFT), but would you be willing to take a quick look over it and give some feedback? /home/gracen/ (yell at me here) 20:01, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
- Hi again @GracenC! More than happy to help out if I can! The most important thing is always sources, because your article must flow from them - and in order to establish notability, you need sources that meet WP:42, the 'golden rule'. This says you are looking for significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the topic. So the first thing to do is assess sources, and one thing that is always frustrating but unavoidable is to look out for interviews - they're not independent. They can be used for information, but not to prove notability. You need a minimum of three solid sources to establish that your subject is notable, and then after that you can use other sources for uncontroversial info.
- Going through your sources and looking specifically for sources to show notability, here's what I'm seeing:
- we must forget about Kitamura's website and Twitter immediately, since they're not independent and can't show notability
- anything with an interview is also not independent, which removes Polygon (source 1) and TouchArcade (source 3) from consideration
- Sound Test (source 4) appears to be coverage of Kitamura's works, among others, and I'm not sure whether it would pass the significant coverage mark - reviewers may disagree on this one, but I'd be dubious about relying on this
- IGN (source 6) is also dubious because two of the five paragraphs are direct quotes from Kitamura
- GamesRadar (source 8) is also very short, with only two paragraphs on Kitamura, so I don't think this would pass significant coverage either
- ScreenRant (source 9) is much more promising - it focuses on Kitamura, it's a reasonable length, and it looks to be independent. If you have more sources like this, that would help!
- tl;dr: I don't think you're ready to submit just yet. Of course the reviewer may see things very differently to me, so if you think I'm being overly pessimistic then I encourage you to ignore me and have a go!
- I hope this has been of some use to you - please feel free to ask follow-up questions or come back with more sources if you like. Happy editing! StartGrammarTime (talk) 22:46, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
- I was thinking of WP:BLPSELFPUB for the interviews and website. My logic was that the independent sources established notability, while her website was just an easier and more direct way of sourcing information about her. There are other sources that confirm the statements I made about her (besides the Alex Roe thing), but I didn't want to overwhelm the article with citations to short articles that only confirm one statement. /home/gracen/ (yell at me here) 23:09, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
- I do see your point, though. The article does overly rely on primary sources and would definitely benefit from some more independent coverage. /home/gracen/ (yell at me here) 23:10, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
- The difficulty is that sources have to meet all three of the WP:42 criteria to show notability - so the source has to be independent and significant coverage and from a reliable publisher, and at the moment most of the independent ones fail significant coverage. I know this can be incredibly frustrating - my own drafts are languishing for want of good sources! - and it's not my intention to dissuade you, just to try to be realistic about the sourcing as I see it. You can absolutely keep all the current sources in, they give good information; I just don't think you have the minimum of three WP:42-compliant sources you need to establish that Kitamura is notable, and without those it doesn't matter how many sources you have, y'know? But again, I could be wrong! Reviewers all see things slightly differently, and I'm not a reviewer (yet). I've just spent a lot of time on the AfC helpdesk, seeing what gets declined and rejected versus what makes it through. StartGrammarTime (talk) 23:21, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, that makes sense. Don't worry about dissuading me, I totally understand where you're coming from. Do you have any recommendations for how to find better sources? I've been using https://news.google.com, but there aren't as many articles as I would hope and expect. I'm hopeful more sources will emerge as she does more freelance work (she barely even shows up in the credits for the game soundtracks despite being responsible for a lot of the work), and I worry that she just isn't notable enough at the moment to be on Wikipedia. I won't give up just yet, though. /home/gracen/ (yell at me here) 23:28, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
- My only trick is to use WP:TWINKLE - if you don't already use it, I highly recommend it. One of the many wonderful things it does is give you an extra dropdown in the top right of your screen, marked TW. If you pretend you're going to delete the draft/article/whatever, by clicking 'XFD', it will offer you links to possible sources on Google. You may need to select 'AfD' instead of 'MfD' to get the full set of options. From memory, it's the basic search, news, new archives, books, scholar, and....some others I don't use. You can click those and it will send you to a search for the article name minus Wikipedia. Then just hit cancel on the XfD pop-up since you don't actually want to delete anything. It's quite surprising how often things show up in Scholar and Books that you wouldn't imagine would ever be mentioned.
- But yeah, I think your worry may be well-founded - sorry. We have a whole essay called WP:TOOSOON about this very problem. Keep in mind that even if she's not notable now, she may well become notable, and you can keep the draft alive by making a small edit (even just adding a space) every six months. Sooner or later people will start noticing her - I think people are starting to notice now, really, but not in the numbers and print spaces we'd like. All I can say is keep an eye out, and I genuinely wish you the best of luck. I'm always happy to look at more sources if they pop up, and if you choose to submit the draft I'll be cheering you on from the sidelines :) StartGrammarTime (talk) 23:41, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks a ton! I'll keep an eye out for more media coverage, but based on my research and what I've learned from this conversation you're likely right that this is too soon. I'm sure at least one other article will come out within the next six months, so hopefully the draft won't get G13'd. /home/gracen/ (yell at me here) 23:51, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, that makes sense. Don't worry about dissuading me, I totally understand where you're coming from. Do you have any recommendations for how to find better sources? I've been using https://news.google.com, but there aren't as many articles as I would hope and expect. I'm hopeful more sources will emerge as she does more freelance work (she barely even shows up in the credits for the game soundtracks despite being responsible for a lot of the work), and I worry that she just isn't notable enough at the moment to be on Wikipedia. I won't give up just yet, though. /home/gracen/ (yell at me here) 23:28, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
- The difficulty is that sources have to meet all three of the WP:42 criteria to show notability - so the source has to be independent and significant coverage and from a reliable publisher, and at the moment most of the independent ones fail significant coverage. I know this can be incredibly frustrating - my own drafts are languishing for want of good sources! - and it's not my intention to dissuade you, just to try to be realistic about the sourcing as I see it. You can absolutely keep all the current sources in, they give good information; I just don't think you have the minimum of three WP:42-compliant sources you need to establish that Kitamura is notable, and without those it doesn't matter how many sources you have, y'know? But again, I could be wrong! Reviewers all see things slightly differently, and I'm not a reviewer (yet). I've just spent a lot of time on the AfC helpdesk, seeing what gets declined and rejected versus what makes it through. StartGrammarTime (talk) 23:21, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
- I do see your point, though. The article does overly rely on primary sources and would definitely benefit from some more independent coverage. /home/gracen/ (yell at me here) 23:10, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
- I was thinking of WP:BLPSELFPUB for the interviews and website. My logic was that the independent sources established notability, while her website was just an easier and more direct way of sourcing information about her. There are other sources that confirm the statements I made about her (besides the Alex Roe thing), but I didn't want to overwhelm the article with citations to short articles that only confirm one statement. /home/gracen/ (yell at me here) 23:09, 23 November 2024 (UTC)