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Technically incorrect use of COI template damaged certain talk pages.

Hello Skookum1. I just completed 3 revision of your addition of the COI template to 3 different talk pages here[1][2][3]. I assume good faith that you did not realize your use of the template was done in a technically incorrect manner that materially damaged the talk pages. I have no knowledge of nor any interest in the specific page subjects and I neither dispute nor agree with your assertion that there is a COI, I merely did what I did because the template was used incorrectly. Feel free to re-assert the COI issues but please do so after reading the policy WP:COI, specifically Section 4[4] which explains how to correctly deal with COI concerns. Remember to always assume good faith and happy editing. -- Low Sea (talk) 23:59, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, ooops, my bad etc, I went back and mowed the overgrown lawn at both of those heavily-fertilized articles. Oh, there were three, guessbut Mr. Shewchuk (and/or the Merritt Musuem) was not a big problem like Bear Mountain....Skookum1 (talk) 14:28, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Vancouver Meetup 2008

May 5, Benny's Bagels, see here. You show as a CWNB Vancouverite, hope to see you there!

  • I'm pretending to be a bot - you should probly update your address on CWNB which still shows Burnaby. I'm pretty sure you're in second-largest-ever-non-nuclear-explosion-ville though. Franamax (talk) 05:57, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Jargon

The passage I removed was both marked with a {{fact}} tag (meaning someone has taken the time to do so because they thought it was dubious), and it asserted the opinion of certain people (Cascadians) without verification. It's a good article, but "used to have citations" is not a substitute for the fact that it doesn't right now. But that's beside the point. I'm not out to delete it, just cleanup what prompted the adding of the cleanup banners. Best, VanTucky 17:10, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Er, that was me that placed that tag, and it was aimed only at the Cascadia thing; Cascadians have a way of sneaking their material into the middle of other material, so as to legitimize their agenda; as the same kind of tack-on "fact" elsewhere on another article the other day, nad Salish Sea proponents adn the purevyors of other neologisms get into the same rigamarole.......the previous bits in that paragraph could use reworking, but they're all straightforward except producing specifics of the lower rate of usage in Idaho etc which is harder to do as there are no formal studies about this; the context of the Jargon's arrival in BC with the HBC is contestible only if you buy the modern academic cabal's contention that the Jargon existed before it was "polluted" by white languages, which has yet to be proven (when they state that, as they have on the other page, they tend to cite each other's opinions/theories, not actual sources, since there are none...). To me, the creation of this article was POV fork, intended to segregate historical white/non-native Jargon users away from the supposedly native-only context of what Chinookology pretends was the case. (not by statement, but by exclusion/selective evidence...the logic is that if so many non-natives were using it, they must have been using it either with natives or each other, but somehow CJists want to pretend they're different; it and their use of the Jargon is not to be taken seriously, and is not wroth studying....). Not your argument, but that's the drift of why I was touchy....this article can be improved vastly, the other one needs some trim, and this one hthe English-speakers one, needs a different title or it needs to be merged back to its parent article. I'll transfer the cites from that one to this one, as they apply here also.Skookum1 (talk) 17:29, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
My basic point is this: the burden of evidence is on you to properly reference and cite the work. Otherwise, uncited material is subject to removal. I removed content that, to me as a reader, sounded dubious and had no verification. If you can provide citations, I'd love to see it back in. VanTucky 17:36, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Everything I removed applies to above criterion, I didn't accidentally remove anything. VanTucky 17:46, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Category talk:First Nations leaders

Can we move here so it's easier to follow the discussion? - TheMightyQuill (talk) 17:45, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Sure, I was gonna move my long post in the previous section here, too....Skookum1 (talk) 17:47, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Cascadia subduction zone

I've replied on my talk page. Black Tusk 17:48, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Estevan Group

I noticed and watchlisted the page. I was planning to make some page stubs for islands and such (including Caamano Sound), but didn't manage it tonight. Perhaps tomorrow. ..oh and, er, what's an LG page? Pfly (talk) 06:37, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

LG = Lieutenant-Governor, the provincial viceroy; it's a common Canadian acronym, guess I too readily assumed you'd recognize it....("GG" is "Governor General", the federal viceroy)Skookum1 (talk) 13:50, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Category:Vancouver Island University

Bite me. All Uni's in Canada have their own categories. Precedent is set. GreenJoe 18:01, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

www.curtisfilm.rutgers.edu

Check it out dude. It's coming this years Aboriginal Day. My friend is the lead for the Gwa'wina dancers. OldManRivers (talk) 20:33, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Utterly awesome; I've never seen more of the film than the canoe sequences withj the uys in the winged costumes and masks, crashing through teh waves....how amazing to see a potlatch; not a modern reahs, if you'll forgive me, but the potlatch culture at its grteatest; magical, utterly, and thus the intent. Not meant to sound soppy; I' ve still yet to write you an email....the romance clip, Malakon (?) and Naida - was the first I watched; I don't know if it's the corruption fo the film over time or the slow delivery time because of my overcfrowded computer, but the distortions of certain bits of both of these were remarkable; is it just me, or did you notice too - the clips of th shaman fall in and out of focus, adn there's an animal-esque blur/shapeshift in the distortions; smae sith the potlatch dancers, and the main dancer there; it's as if it were not meant to be recorded on film, or film was incapable of capturing everything; frame speed has a lot to do with it also, and film speed Like the Senakw picture with the shaman's face scratched out, or how Khahtsahlano wouldn't wear his own regalia for a photo shoot but had Maj Matthews war it (those are amazing shots - have you seen Early Vancouver yet? They're in the first paltes in Vol. 1) The romance sequence struck me like watching Sergei Eisenstein, - in particular his Viva Mexico! (film), also a silent but available on DVD with a mocked-up score; long and slow, beautyifly elegant and serene, contrastd with teh discord of hate. The dude playing Malakon look s big and buff, like he lifts weights or surfs; yeah, I know, day after day in the canoe, probably swimming too huh? Ditto with the shaman in the same sequence; a tougher, harder life; the same would be true of pre-industrial/pre-consumer people of other tribes (mneaning mine, that is); really fit and, if well-fed, really built and athletic (as was, by the way, remarked about by the Spanish explorers re al the coastal peoples). The beach-y water-ctulure quality of that sequence, and the ritual power of the potlatch - no wonder people thought there were connections from your people to Hawaii and Japan; though neither other culture has something so intense in visual quality as the ceremony in the clip; not even a Maori haka or a Hawaiian war hula has that much potency.....got lots of thoughts about this, gonna send it around my facebook musician friends and filmmaker friends and blow their minds ;-) One young director will love the title alone - he's into b-grade schlock (look up "Hobo with a Shotgun" on youtube and I stil have to see my role in Treevenge, which we shot back in Nov/Dec (in the bitter f#*^$#g cold). Anyway I'm having a change of life tomorrow, and I've got way too many Wiki projects on the boil as usual;a friend is arriving in Hali and life 's gonna get different; i think I'm gonna make a section here off all the broser tabs I have open at the moment, so people who watch my talkpage have an idea what things I was up to befor I disappeared again, as it will seem like relative to the amount Iv'eben around these last few weeks. I should really be writing my press kits, CD tracks and dealing with the musician's path and gettin' all poetical and mystical and spinning lyrics; instead I'm still writing BC history and I'm 4000 miles away.....just can't let go I guess; I know one day when I'm older adn the ddeds are done I'll want to hunker down over a whle bunch of diferent topics...books? Will we still havbooks by then? . Anyway watch this space; a whole bunch of open historical-resource links and assorted websites I had open in mind for various articles either to create or to add to; gonna take a while to build but my browser has too many tabs open and is slow as a dog; just to finally get to this reply I had to wait an hour while the whirling beach-ball-=of-purgatory kept me waiintg so I could shut down enough tabs to function.....damn ADD anyway huh?Skookum1 (talk) 04:49, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

BC Map

I made a test of a mostly blank physical map of southern BC at Image:Lowerbc physicalmap.png and wanted to see if that would be a useful basemap for you to make your own maps. If so I could do another one that has the whole province. Anything else you'd need on there? Or want taken off? Unfortunately the elevation shading doesn't look very good if you zoom in too much, but it should be good for regional maps. Kmusser (talk) 19:00, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Perspective's such an interesting thing...."southern" to us means from Kamloops/Cache Creek south/ everything up from there is Central/Northern ;-)...I'm always amused when people from the US or other parts of Canada refer to Whistler or Cache Creek as "up north"...with the Cariboo I can almost deal with that, but the North doesn't really start until Prince George, and they consider themselves "Central Interior", a term I associate with Kamloops-Williams Lake/Cariboo..Anyway this map is gonna be great for things like traditional-region maps, still ahve to figure out a mapping scheme (boundaries should be not-solid, more like colour-zones with blurry edges? and also for rivers, parks etc. I found a part of the provincial site with info on electoral boundaries park boundaries etc that contains the datasets; you have to create a BCeID (BC electronic ID) for it - I'm still reading their privacy policy as to whether I want to do that...but anyone can have one, so can you...I've got the link open on one of the dozens of browser tabs I've got open at the moment; I'll be back with it later. In the meantime, would it be possible to make finer-scale local close-ups on some areas, if I lay them out for you? Also, there's no need on a basemap to try and show metropolitan zones as you have; the whole Lower Mainland would have to be red, as well as most of the Okanagan and the southeast coast of the Island; and for historical maps the locations of the cities/built-up areas are largely irrelevant; Prince George's urban boundary, like Kamloops' and Kelowna-Westbank's is actually larger than Vancouver's, and Whistler's is close.......so big red blotches would be all over it f we were being consistent. Some rivers/streams seem missing, but only when I look close. I'll bre back....Skookum1 (talk) 16:25, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
BCeID homepage.....re ILRR homepage and the Integrated Land Management Bureau page and others - here and here and this core geomatics page. Not sure how any of this works, but....Skookum1 (talk) 16:53, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
I'll take the cities out, now that I think about it the ones I used are probably really out of date anyway. Doing close-ups is possible, but depending on how close up you're talking you might lose the elevation shading as it gets too fuzzy, I'll check that website though and see - if they have more detailed elevations than what I'm using and if so I can swap it in. Kmusser (talk) 17:12, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Was this built using the stuff from www.geobase.org I posted at Talk:Columbia River??Skookum1 (talk) 17:15, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
No I haven't delved into that yet, this was cropped out of world datasets. Kmusser (talk) 17:46, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Ok, map is updated with the cities taken off. The ILMB stuff is copyrighted, so I can't use their data directly - they can still be used as a reference though, so if there's something on their maps that ought to be on mine I could probably just draw it in manually. I also got around to checking out the geobase data - that's actually too detailed for this kind of map (each map sheet needs to be downloaded separately so that would be around 200 files to download and merge just for the elevation, another 100 or so for the rivers) - but is useful for close up maps. I'm going to try using it for the Arrow Lakes, which looks like 10 or so files. Kmusser (talk) 16:52, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

An Invite to join Canada Roads WikiProject

Shortcuts
WikiProject Canada Roads
Hi, you are graciously extended an invitation to join the Canada Roads WikiProject! The Canada Roads WikiProject is an evolving and expanding WikiProject. We are a group of editors who are dedicated to creating, revising, and expanding articles, lists, categories, and Wikiprojects, to do with anything related to Canadian Roads.
As you have shown an interest in Dewdney Trunk Road we thought you might like to take an interest in this growing WikiProject.
We look forward to welcoming you to the project! SriMesh | talk 04:47, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Do we have Roads in BC, I thought we had goat tracks? sfs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.81.76.183 (talk) 15:14, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for joining up with WikiProject Canada Roads. Glad to have you aboard!

Texada and Explosives

Haven't heard of the explosive plant in Ashcroft although there is some local history in Nanoose Bay of a plant, also owned by CIL I think that had a big bang once. I think local legend has it that windows were broken in Nanaimo.KenWalker

The plant was at Red Creek, Lantzville. Others at Bowen Island, and later James Island. sfs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.81.76.183 (talk) 17:51, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
There was also the Giant Powder Works at Nanoose. It is on the other side of the bay from Lantzville. --KenWalker | Talk


I wasn't sure about the advocacy links in the Texada article. I couldn't actually find anything specific about links to external issue advocacy pages but thought that WP:LINKSPAM supported removing them. I might even support their opposition to the plant, but just don't think using WP articles to drive traffic to it is right. I also wondered about leaving the company info sites about the issue since they are really advocating the other side of the question. I thought they could be kept as more relevant info rather than advocacy, but upon reflection I agree the should go as well.

Good to see you around here more, cheers. --KenWalker | Talk 06:51, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Gitḵxaała Tsimshian

Heya... I'm working on a page about the sloop Princess Royal and one source describes a series of encounters the British fur traders had in 1787 with some of the "Gitḵxaała Tsimshian", as the book spells it. Would you know if this would be the Gitzaxłaał Tsimshian? Apparently this was the first contact between Europeans and the Tsimshian. Thanks. Pfly (talk) 07:13, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Oop, nevermind, I just found later in the book the explanation that the Gitḵxaała are the Kitkatla. Pfly (talk) 07:19, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
;-) Variable names/spelling systems of indigneous peoples are always problematic; see Wuikinuxv for an extreme case of variability, but others could be produced too (the Nlaka'pamux ahve had a whole series of "official" spellings, not always in concord with the linguists (as also on the Coast). "Gitḵxaała" doesn't seem to be the current "official" Tsimshian either; Kitkatla is....although there being no Tsimshian Tribal Council or other central coordinating group it's also true taht spellings and spelling systems might vary across Tsimshian territory/communities. BTW I'm thinking my placement of Heiltsuk in the cats on Estevan Group was wrong...more likely that should be Tsimshian; I don't know if there were every any villages on those outer islands, though; certainly something we should find out about, though huh?Skookum1 (talk) 15:35, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Yea this book specifically describes the Estevan Group as being Tsimshian territory. Btw I have a work-in-progress draft at User:Pfly/Sandbox if you want to take a look. I thought I'd try to make a decent page instead of just a stub. Pfly (talk) 16:52, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Work underway or intended; also as a wishlist...

I've got scads of tabs open right now because of the tangential nature of my research and writign interests; I'm going to be not quit around as much in teh next while, though still lurking, and had a number ofthings I wanted to get to, which is what a lot of those tabs/links are about; some are things I found along the way looking for other things, some are reesources for a numbere of different articles and projects. Anyway this is my work area, not putting it on my user page, these are all meant as community resources for current BC/PacNW history and cultural/indiegneous/frotneri/etc group efforst underway, and whatever else; geography, bios, eclectica a grab-bag. Also things I've meant to get at for the longest time, and hoping someone will take the banner on some; certain people I have in mind for certain topics so may comment along the way about that.... This is partly my way also of downsizing my browser's load on my underRAM'd laptop. I'll try and add comments to some linsk as to what they're about, and will try and arrange them by theme.....probably take successive edits to get thsi done...feel free to cut in between items with comments/clues...

  • this is a BCGNIS search on "Raspberry" I think, can't remember as there's no back/forward on the page; Raspberry/Robson, British Columbia....or is it Robson/Raspberry, British Columbia needs a split for what seem like obvfious reasons; this search as part of my background on figuring out why, but a lot of the other links on it have interesting historical tidbits about the area; more links on this area later in the list.
  • I think Pfly linked me this; it's not bad as curriculm histories go, at least this page; haven't 4explored it fully....
  • Pitt Lake Gold needs retitling and reworking (see also Slumach, and its author User:FredBraches is trying/earnest/eager, but needs ushering an d wiki-mentoring; hopefully he'll get at Yennadon and Webster's Corners and Whonnock and such soon (Whonnock's his thing; links on other Maple Ridge and Fraser Valley communities/localtiies later in the lst also. It's my fault btw taht the Stave River dams haven't been done, I'm from there/ from hydro no less and should have done them; just wanted to do it right; also STave Falls, British Columbia and Stave Falls (British Columbia) need separate articles when the time comes; the falls were just below the Blind Slough Dam of today.I wanted to get at Steelhead, Silverdale, Cedar Valely ,Frendale, mcConnell Creek, Durieu, Dewdney, Deroche edtc articles but it's a big swamp; again the home turf, but the idea is that "we" cover all the disappearing bits of local history/commyunity in the maw of the growing suburbanization,i .e. befor they're gone....
  • this is the Thompson-Lillooet-Canyon page of Michael Kluckner's site, as some great information, as you'll find on the other pages and personal documentation/oral hsitories/memoris...he's got an error on the number of Japanese internment camps - relocation centres they were, in Miyazaki's wordd,s or "self-supporting centres" technically - which is why I had it bookmarked; the histories here are all usable/citable, and therre are some PD-Canada type pictures also.

OKI'm gonna save this for now; that's one browsser widnow shut down, but there's a lot more to go. gotta switch/close windows (including this one( and tend to my saute-pork...Skookum1 (talk) 05:40, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Gray at Nootka

Hehe, yes.. I don't know a great deal about the personalities of Gray, Vancouver, etc, but I wonder -- I can't imagine Vancouver had any love of the United States in 1792, and certainly Gray was "just" a fur trading merchant. But then most of the British around the PNW at the time were fur trading merchants whose personalities and behaviors seem to have been rather sub-standard when compared to the Royal Navy. I wonder what Vancouver thought of, say, Meares, Colnett, and the others. He met with lots of them and got important geographical information from them, same as Gray. Then again, as I understand it, practically all of the fur trading ventures in the region at the time came out of Captain Cook's voyages -- lots of the British captains had served with Cook, as Vancouver had. Gray hadn't of course, nor his partner Kendrick, but at least some of their crews had. I have the sense that the spirit of James Cook lay over the entire region and included even Gray. In any case, Vancouver at least felt it right to honor Gray with several place names, including the Columbia River. Then again, Vancouver was pretty honorable that way all around. Several of the British fur traders felt no qualms about naming things after themselves (like Barkley Sound, I think), but I don't think Gray did. Most of the Gray place names were given by Vancouver, if I have it right. Anyway, I'm not familiar enough with Gray to know, but from what I've seen he strikes me as at least as honorable as the British fur traders of the time and place -- more so than some. I wonder if Vancouver saw him in a better or worse light than he did the British traders. A dinner scene with Maquinna, Vancouver, and Quadra does sound.. intriguing.

There is a scene in the real story where Maquinna and Callicum put on "a highly amusing theatrical" with the brothers dressed up as Vancouver and Quadra and mimicking/mocking European speech and mannerisms "with great effect". Sounds like a potlatch-style occasion and must have been pretty interesting; mocking the guests, probably not; maybe OMR might have some thoughts; more by way of evocation in the name of having power over them; no mention of names being given or anything, hard to say how much it was meant farciaclly; Maquinna might have had reason to be mocking them without htem knowing it, depeinding on this and that; all intriguing, and again, would make a great scene. Theres' talk of a John Jewitt movie, btw, told from tne Nuu-chah-nulth point of view, but if it can't look like taht Curtis footage OMr turned us onto, they shouldnt' bother.... ;-)Skookum1 (talk) 05:28, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Also -- wanted to mention I've published the Princess Royal page and am doing linking and such right now. You had left a note asking for it to be included in Canada-hist-stub and BritishColumbia-stub, but I didn't since the article seems too long to be a stub. Also, in going through it all it seems like a few related topics perhaps ought to have pages too, like: Nootka Incident / Crisis, James Colnett, Richard Cadman Etches (and Company, aka King George's Sound Company), Banks Island, Campania Island, Gribbell Island, Milbanke Sound, Houston Stewart Channel, North West America (aka Santa Saturnina)... Not that I am about to make them, I just thought it worth mentioning. Cheers, Pfly (talk) 04:21, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I was going to suggest we put the Nootka Conventions into WikiSource, like other treaty materials. The North West America...that's redlinked all over the place :-) and as the first ship built in the region, there's certainly a call for it; the issue of what happened to the Chinese carpenters, and how many of them there were, is as far as I nkow unsolved and the Mowachaht have nothing to say about it, or won't...but it's interesting. George Bowering, whose British Columbia: A Swashbuckling Histor is both a bore and kitsch and like so mmany self-consciously p.c. stuff full of errors and misplaced value judgments :-| (Problems in current historiography in British Columbia is the title of an article I may start buliding on my OrigResearch Wiki)....oh, sorry, didn't mean to rant a review, anyway Bowering's account of the North West America says it was "the first in a long series of times the white man used non-whites to do their dirty work for them" (that's close to a quote, might not have it quite right; Barman snits her nose similarly. Both of them don't have a clue. Anothe paper, which I've got a bibliog link for somewhere, The Development of Communications in Early British Columbia, either a shitory or geogrpahy thesis from the 1930s or '40s from UBC, gets into the time/distance factor in terms of this regions' real, effective distance from teh outside world; not measured in miels, but in time, and at the literal ends of the earth. 18 months from Bristol, or 4-6 from Canton (if not less), and Chinese shipwrights were among hte best on the planet; and highly-paid craftsmen. One issue - they may have not left China with legal permission, and could not return; or he had a contract to return them, one of th two; the Qing were pretty strict; these guys were lucky they didn't have their heads lopped by order of the mandarins when they saield up the Perfume River with their furs; but hte mandarins liked fur (taht thee'es a marekt for it in the subtropical south of Chinese boggles me also). Now, any one of these guys who got back to China with a few bear paws and a gall bladder or two, plus some furs, would be set for life. So I don't think it was a aquestion of hiring coolies here, these weren't coolies suitable for blowing up in railway tunnels, these were guys who knew how to build ships. it must havebeen quite the craft; under Meares' direction, so of British design, but with Chinese wood-crafting skills; there are sketches, right? What's also interesting is tha the Chinese carpetners were able to so readilyi adapt to a Western design from the usual junks and sampan-style hulls. So, by being self-rightoues, Barman and Bowering miss out on the mist interesitng part of the story. Meares' resason was twofold - money more to do with time and labour costs; and nobody has shown me the relative wages of a Chinese shipwright vs those of a British one at the time were necessarily all that different. But it's the sea-time that's critical; eighteen months there, eighteen months back, and a dangerous trip too...vs the short haul, via Hawaii no less, with a crew who knew how to cook seafood instead of salt pork and hard tack. Whoever he brought they were pros, not cheap dirty non-white labour like Bowering suggests they were....gotta go; buddy from BC just go into Hfx airport, gotta get ready for his arrival..
The Chinese workers are an interesting twist I only recently learned about. From what little I read I had assumed they were not shipwrights so much as carpenters or just laborers, and that the British captains present had some experience in building small ships like the North West America -- in short that the British were the shipwrights and did at least some of the work, while the Chinese were used for the rougher manual labor. But you've made me question this assumption. Curious. As to what happened to them, Martinez took them captive along with the rest of the British crews and ships. Martínez "forced them", as some book put it, to build Fort San Miguel. I would guess he then took them to San Blas, Mexico, along with the rest of his prisoners and seized ships. What happened to them then I wonder? I don't recall hearing that they returned to Nootka Sound with Eliza in 1790. Perhaps they stayed in Mexico. Anyway, another notable thing about the North West America is that it was used to explore the Strait of Juan de Fuca by Narváez in 1789 and then, after apparently being substantially rebuilt, was the Santa Saturnina used by Narváez for that first Spanish penetration of the Strait of Georgia. Not bad for a tiny little schooner. The Narváez book I have contained drawings of it, looking quite puny next to the San Carlos and HMS Discovery. Would make a good article.... someday. Pfly (talk) 05:58, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Followup -- a quick search shows that "It was planned to get each Chinaman a Kanaka wife at the Sandwich Islands, and with these the new colony at Nootka, to be known as Fort Pitt, was to be planted". In short, they didn't intend to return to China. They did in fact end up at San Blas, and I found references to ongoing statements and inquiries about their future over the next few years, but nothing about what actually happened to them. Like the North West America they were another first -- the first Chinese laborers in the PNW. Pfly (talk) 07:20, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

PS - I saw your idea about a "marine fur trade" category and understand the idea, but immediately thought of other fur trade related people and topics that seem far removed from the PNW stuff. When I was working on articles about the colonial American southeast the fur trade came up a lot -- as usual they were often the real pioneers, venturing deep into native lands, making risky first contacts, acting as informal (or formal) agents of empire, and so on. But in the southeast the fur trade was quite different from in the north. The era was different (late 1600s, early 1700s), the furs were different (deerskins mainly, whose value and use differs significantly from more northern furs), and so on. In short, I understand the logic of splitting out land and sea based fur trading, but there are so many other, additional ways it could be split up, I hesitate to have an opinion. It's a complicated topic. Perhaps what would help the most is some work on the main articles, like fur trade, and whatever the pages are titled for "factory", "factor", etc. These articles are pretty wimpy and narrow in scope, last I looked. Pfly (talk) 04:31, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Buddy's coming; more thoughts on this later; main idea is that the marine fur trade was a totally different market/economy, and involved no trapping, only trading, and also was unique in its encounter with the Northwest DCoast civilization and the opening of hte inteerafdction with China; it's a very different story; likewise the Russian and other fur trades I suppose, though....Skookum1 (talk) 05:28, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Chief Kamiakin and Grand Ronde Valley

Just a real "thanks" for taking interest in the Chief Kamiakin article. I can understand your confusion about the city of Grand Ronde, Oregon which is in Western Oregon, and the geographic feature of the Grand Ronde Valley which is near the Idaho border. You actually have helped me narrow down some information on this. Seems that the closest city is La Grande, Oregon which I didn't know until I did some investigating to make sure I wasn't wrong about the location of the valley in Eastern Oregon (and I have been wrong!). The Kamiakin article was almost a stub for the longest time so I'm pleased that others are actually looking at it. He was a really fascinating person and I'd like to, some day, really expand out the article with a lot more details. -- Quartermaster (talk) 18:16, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Good to know that; Kamiakin and various others in the PacNW should be given the same due respect coverage-wise as Sealth and Leschi and Chief Joseph; I created Nicola (chief) among others for BC and there are dozens of BC "chief" bios that are just as needed and interesting. Kamiakin I became aware of because of my interest in the Yakima War and the Okanagan Trail re the Fraser Canyon War/Fraser Canyon Gold Rush, Grand Ronde because of my interest in the Chinook Jargon; Grand Ronde Valley is new to me, please write a location article/stub for it....Skookum1 (talk) 19:54, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
PS I see you've got WikiProject Eastern Washington in your userboxes; is that still active? I'm a non-signed up participant in WikiProject Washington; did the two projects merge?Skookum1 (talk) 19:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure if there was any merging. I haven't seen much activity generally from Eastern Washingtonians. I'm just getting in to the Yakima War and have found more and more excellent resources, especially A.J. Splawn's Ka-mi-a-kin, the Last Hero of the Yakimas (1917) which is linked to in full-text in the Kamiakin article. I just extracted out Kamiakin's parents names from that book a few minutes ago. Also was able to come up with a sketch of Peo-peo-mox-mox which has been added to the Wikimedia Commons and is in that article (I think it's one of the all time great names - why go by Yellow Bird?). -- Quartermaster (talk) 20:37, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
"Name most people know someone by" is a Wiki guideline, although with indigenous personages the movement has been towards "authentic" names; Yellow Bird is simply a translation FWIK; Imagine Hwistesmexteqen, with an apostrophe in there somewhere, instead of Nicola (chief); but his English name isn't a translation so that's different. Indigenous chief-names are often hereditary and might not have to do with ruling-chief status; we're having a discussion about this right now in fact on BC-related pages, maybe the Skwxwu7mesh or Kwakwaka'wakw talkpages.....oh yeah Talk:Joe Capilano. Not sure the status of the notion of "chief" in Yakima culture but for ethnographically-correct articles on the Coast, it's an awkward term when traditional titles/names/chieftaincies/"si:yam" status are involved; otherwise it's the chief of the Indian Act-ordained band council government; sometimes they're the same person; but ti's not the same office....Peo-peo-mox-mox I'm not sure what people he's from; that almost looks like a Chinookism but I'll be back about that....Skookum1 (talk) 20:49, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
PPS and for a while now there's been a need for someone to write a Wars West of the Rockies section for Indian Wars; I haven't done it because I don't know US territorial history well, though I did add them (the various PacNW wars) to the listings there...Skookum1 (talk) 19:57, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
When I get infinite time(!) I'll start in on that! Final note, I've seen both Grand Ronde Valley and Grande Ronde Valley with the latter being more common. Why the interest in Kamiakin for me? I attended Chief Kamiakin Elementary School in the 1960's and never knew anything about the man at the time. -- Quartermaster (talk) 20:37, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Just to note taht the Walla Walla (tribe) article is in sorry state, and doesn't even mention the Yakima Wars of Peopeomoxmox; typical of many PacNW tribe artyicles though...Skookum1 (talk) 20:52, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Murder of Peo-peo-mox-mox

Just noticed your commented question about whether Peo-peo-mox-mox was murdered or a casualty of battle. The source in the article (Oregon volunteers invade Washington Territory and battle the Walla Wallas and other tribes beginning on December 6, 1855. HistoryLink.org Essay 8132) says that "Before the fight, chief Peo-Peo-Mox-Mox had been taken hostage and, during the first day of the battle, he and other hostages were killed." So "murder" seems accurate here, though I always prefer more than one source. Interesting stuff! -- Quartermaster (talk) 12:58, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Now that I think of it, perhaps "executed" would be the more accurate term. Qualchan apparently was also "executed" though that article isn't categorized the same as Peo-peo-mox-mox. I'm letting these things be for now, but I sense some possible future controversy (actually, hoping for it because that means the articles are getting exposure). -- Quartermaster (talk) 13:03, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Network outage

If anyone's been wondering where I've been since Saturday, we had a network outage at my house, just fixed now. if there's a talkpage discussion anywhere I've forgotten about in the meantime please direct me back there.Skookum1 (talk) 16:00, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Confederation

Hey Skookum1, you do know BC joined Confederation in 1871, right? :-) Just joking, the new header is much better and clearer to those unfamiliar with the subject. Cheers! DoubleBlue (Talk) 23:17, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I know it's a Wiki hierarchy, but Category:Pre-Confederation British Columbia people ("BC people?") has always sounded ucky to me since I saw it; there's three distinct eras in BC "pre-Confederation, I've really only named two ("imperial rivalry" is the first one), i.e. in terms of non-indigenous history). We had a fur trade era, and a colonial era; what does Confederation ahve to do with either one? Zilch. In reality also the BC colonial era really didn't end until the completion of the railway in 1885 but that's a longer dsicussion and I just got back form a movie and want to go do my thing (er, sing songs, of all things...). I'm a stickler on appropriate terminology for BC history, in many ways, and often find Central Canadian perspectgi des on us/on BC to be a bit odd, and odd-sounding. "Pre-Confederation" is one of those, very contrived/artificial (like Confederation itself) and not from an in situ perspective.Skookum1 (talk) 02:53, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
All those "foo people" categories sound ridiculous but I suppose it's easier in the grand scheme of things to have a standard naming strategy. I'm not sure that it's so much of a Central-Canadian perspective as a traditional political history perspective that sorts eras into governance. The governance of BC is certainly of interest but, perhaps, not as relevant or interesting as the history of the people, culture, or economy. DoubleBlue (Talk) 04:34, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
It's in reference to the people, culture and economy taht I was meaning re the true end of the colonial/"early provincial" era with the coming of hte railway; BC was a separate world beforehand; the governance is a relative abstraction (and both colonial and pre-party era BC politics were highly, um, abstract...chaotic and unconventional to say the least...from Douglas vs. Blanshard right on down). BC's history cannot be parcelled out by a standard paradigm; it has its own paradigm; most BC histories talk about this in some way, in fact, in terms of the effective merger with Canada not really being until the mid-1880s, and even then for a long time BC remained its own turf/fiefdom...it's late and I'm rambling; I've never ahd the time to apply to the BC page or the history of BC page, been too busy with specific articles; but various wordings have always bothered me; that ("Pre-Confederation") was one of them...and I/we still need a section heading to describe indigenous culture/history, without treating it sa pre-history......g'nite....Skookum1 (talk) 06:35, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Islands

Size, population, ... sure -- I've mainly been looking at places along the Inside Passage, or important to it for some reason. ..just waking up, time for coffee.. Pfly (talk) 15:13, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Same here, and the net was down in the house here for give days, which is "where I've been". My non-Wiki friend from BC is now living here also so my time gets eaten up as host/friend (ditto with my music time). As for King Island, it's not quite on the Inside Passage unless you count the stop-in at Bella Coola on the mid-Coast ferry route, whatever it's called now. King also has a history of logging blockades by the Nuxalk against whichever forest company; during the Oka Crisis/Gustafsen Lake Standoff era/time-period, one of many in BC; it was during that period when the Nuxalk really got vocal, and airtime, over being a sovereign country also; I don't think there's any Nuxalkmc communities on King these days, but it's where teh world was born in their universe, as I recall from other things I read about them during the logging blockade. NB enviro gropus were frsutratged because, as in many cases, the Nuxalk weren't out necessarily to stop logging, but to control it and exact revenue/rights from it; this is a common theme in environmental politics in BC; the green groups enlisted the support or the FNs, only to find out that the FN agenda isn't necessarily all that green; in the Nuxalk case it mostly is, though; anyway I tried to find news bits on that blockade, which was big-media airtime and major paper coverage for a while; now swept into the dustbin of history by the post-facto censorship of the media; like a lot else; have a look at the Oka and Gustafsen talkpages; this is far removed from geography but will give you an idea of "the other side" of Canadian political life; all of which is one reason I try to be thorough about embracing ht4e indigenous point of view and also watching out fror points of view inculcated by media campaigns; be it big media campaigns, alt/enviro media campaigns, or indigenous media campaigns. It's not about who SHOULD be right, it's about who IS right. In most cases, it's none of them.....Anyway List of islands on the British Columbia Coast by area and List of islands on the British Columbia Coast by population strike me still as good ideas; King's up there somewhere, in teh same size range as Princess Royal and Graham, and larger thn Pitt I'm pretty sure; deceiving because it's hidden within "arms of the mainland"....Skookum1 (talk) 15:39, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
re those list ideas; List of islands on the Pacific Northwest Coast by area and by population is maybe more geographically real; mostly for area ranking that means Alaska, mostly for population it means Washington; I just wish we had a comprehensive term for the whole coast, unless we can pin down "Pacific Northwest Coast"; when I created British Columbia Coast I wasn't trying to be nationalistic; just didn't know how to address it otherwise, given the unknown "outside parameters", i.e. N/S limits; Yakutat Bay apparently on the north, somewhere around the Rogue River/Eureka on the south I guess; except those pesky folks at Fort Bragg and Bodega Bay AFAIK like to think they're "Northwest Coast" also....Skookum1 (talk) 15:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)`

Heya-- a few misc replies and tangents:

I didn't quite get what you said about King Island -- was it a request to have the page improved? I can look into it. I've been mainly skimming by it, what with trying to learn about the Inside Passage and outer islands and sounds. It's such a complicated coastline, I had to start at the outside and then work my way in. :-)

Yeah, that was the idea - improve it. You've developed a nice standard style for the island articles, with the history section fitted in and consciousness of native history and native-explorer/marine trade interactions. King Island I knew about but when I noticed it on the Monarchy page I knew it wasn't right; sure enough it was for one of Vancouver's officers, a Mr. King, I believe, rather than a king. It's also of high importance in Nuxalk culture/history and IIRC there were mines on the island as well as logging operations/camps; and it is one of the largest islands on the coast, hidden away thought it may be (there are several close calls, where isthmi almost make other islands; the list is huge - I know the coastline well - but consider Sechelt and (less so) Powell River and what size islands the Malaspina Peninsula and Sechelt Peninsula would make. King's different though, deep inlets on all sides; quite the chunk of mountainscape - its unnamed summit, probably dubbed King Peak by bivouac but unofficially - has one of the highest prominences in the summit complex, a "P5000" summit; also one of the highest island prominences I think..Skookum1 (talk) 19:57, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

For a list of islands by size this page may be a useful start. It only goes so far though. I've looked, vaguely, for island population numbers but failed to find anything quick and easy. It looked like the Canadian Census web pages might have such info, but it would take time for me to try to figure out where.

The census would be a bitch to figure out if there was an "islands" stat list; probably not; what's needed is the breakdown within RDs for individual communities, and not all of that's free, i.e. hidden in complex data reports they charge for; but it's in the public files somewhere; many inhabited places are quite surprising; which was the one in the Estevan Group with the little water-aerodrome, something Bay? Two-three people, not a post office, but a placename/island. Even on the Charlottes it'll be tricky to work out. Mostly the big inhabited islands are easy to sort out - Lulu Island first of all on the list (even there separating Sea Island's population, such as it is, out of Richmond's, then also adding in the Queensborough area of New West at the Island's eastern end... then variously through the Gulf Islands in descending order, then Prince Rupert (which is on Kaien Island as you may know and then the various populated islands in the Queen Charlotte Strait and Desolation Sound/Discovery Islands; Graham Island must fit in there somewhere....btw I'm pulling a bit of cultural/political subterfuge by adding Haida settlements and Haida-populated islands/geography in Alaska to the Category:Haida area as a counterthwart to the rename-QCI-as-Haida-Gwaii agenda ;-)Skookum1 (talk) 19:57, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

As I've been adding various islands to List of islands of Canada I've wondered whether the "Other" header should be split up somehow. As it is the "Other" islands range from near Alaska to the Strait of Georgia (Nelson Island), as well as some west coast of Vancouver Island islands (Nootka Island). But I'm not sure how best to split up "Other", even if its even worth the trouble.

Best by coastal region; North Coast (sublist QCI), Central Coast (sublist QCStrait for one, certain channels/inlets/sounds within that - King Island would be sublisted under Dean Channel, for instance, i.e. considering the inlet as a region-name, which is how it's used). West Coast of Vancouver Island can be titled that way and make each sound a region - Quatsino Sound, Kyuquot Sound, Nootka Sound, Clayoquot Sound, Barkley Sound (I'm so used to sp. that Barclay Sound...old-fashioned I guess...). No major islands south of that though there are various islets off Nitinat, west of Port San Juan/Port Renfrew; NB the distinction there btw - Port San Juan is the harbour, Port Renfrew is the town.Skookum1 (talk) 19:57, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

As for a name for the whole coastal fjorded archipelago, Alaska, BC, and even into WA, I don't know -- there must be one I would think. I'll look into it.

I found a pdf by Ames about Northwest Coast culture and he provides some definitions; I didn't bookmark the place I downloaded it from but I have it handy; if you want to email me I'll send it over that way; otherwise I could hunt for the link again (so far all I've found is lots of books/papers by Ames, but not hte link I used....).Skookum1 (talk) 19:57, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks in part to you and Old Man Rivers, I've been trying to find and incorporate indigeneous info into pages. I'm slowly learning more about the patterns of indigeneous peoples along the coast, both historic and today -- but have still a very vague picture. It would be useful to find detailed info on which peoples lived (historically) and live (today) where along the coast. I even have a blank map of the coast I printed out, intending to draw on it indigeneous regions as I try to figure it out. ...anyway, I was going to try to write all this more clearly and with fewer words, but my brain is not fully working right now. Pfly (talk) 19:06, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

That Ames PDF is really good; even I was impressed, if you'll forgive the arrogance. Send me a mail, I'll send it over; at some point I'll give you some more background links; right now I should cook dinner....Skookum1 (talk) 19:57, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Sure, its peafly at gmail dot com. I just spent a little time drawing on that map and have a better sense. Along the coast from north Vancouver Island, "pre-contact", something like: Kwakwaka'wakw, Wuikinuxv, Heiltsuk, Nuxalk more inland, Tsimshian (southern and northern?), Haisla more inland, Wet'suwet'en even more inland?, Nisga'a along the Nass River, Gitk'san inland on the Skeena, Haida, Tlingit... Did I miss anything major? I saw references to a peoples called "Haihais", but couldn't figure anything out -- part of the Heiltsuk? I'm also uncertain about which of these groupings the village of Namu would fall. Anyway, I am just about to not be online myself. Pfly (talk) 22:51, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
PS Nelson Island you could call a Northern Gulf Island and/or assign it to a Jervis Inlet subdivision; ultimately all the big inlets will be subregion names/categories; Category:Howe Sound should already exist if it doesn't. Category:Jervis Inlet would be tricky, though; Sechelt and Malaspine Peninsulas are already subregions, if not subcats yet, of Category:Sunshine Coast (and a Jervis cat should also be a subcat of it); its the subinlets that are confounding, i.e. Sechelt Inlet is "tributary" to it....aw it doesnt' matter, it's already in the Sunshine Coast cat/area. Whatever....Skookum1 (talk) 20:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

British Columbia Coast of Canada

That's cool -- it was merely my attempt to do something akin to "the U.S. state of Washington...", knowing that the Canada links were not quite the same as the US counterparts and that it didn't flow as well. Anyway, I used that form, "the Canadian province of British Columbia", on a number of pages. If either of us get the chance and urge they could be changed. Pfly (talk) 07:04, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

José Cardero

José, Josef, Cardero, Cordero, whichever spelling (I think it is more properly José Cardero, but not sure), probably could use an article. There's even a redlink for him on the Alessandro Malaspina page -- he was one of the artists on that trip, made lots of drawings of the Tlingit. Then went along with Galiano and Valdes around Vancouver Island. I wouldn't have been able to guess Dibuxante Point being named for him, good find. Cordero Channel is named for him too, although BCGNIS sounds uncertain about it. The book on Galiano I had was clear about it. To the Spanish it included what's now called Chancellor Channel. That's the route they took instead of Discovery Passage to Johnstone Strait. Apparently it is now the preferred route for smaller boats, but it's still hard to imagine doing it in small unmotorized sail boats with no charts etc. And yea, there's that street in Vancouver. A "List of Spanish placenames in the Pacific Northwest (Coast)", even if nothing more than an informal sandbox type thing, might be interesting to see. I've been a little surprised at the number that have survived in BC and Alaska. How interesting it would have been if Narváez had entered Puget Sound in 1791 like he had wanted -- maybe we'd be calling it Caamaño Sound instead. ..ok, coffee... Pfly (talk) 15:27, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

WikiCookie

Just stopping by with wikicookies for those editors who started new articles today. --Rosiestep (talk) 19:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Hyas mahsi (thanks mucho in CJ. Munchmunchmunch, wiping crumbs from lips.....Skookum1 (talk) 19:21, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Minto gardens

Hi Skookum. Re/ my edit in Minto City, British Columbia... I see your point. And I'm sure I would be impressed!  :) I removed the word "impressive" because it read as if it was a fact as opposed to the opinion of the sources cited. If it was an expert opinion in the references or popular opinion at the time (as confirmed by the references) then it just needs to be presented that way. No different than a critical review of a book or movie or performance. Cheers! --Ds13 (talk) 15:37, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Canadian residential school system deaths

The controversy surrounding Kevin Annett is really irrelevant. The Canadian residential school system article doesn't cite his work, and doesn't need to. There is lots of work by uncontroversial historians that supports massive numbers of deaths. Intent to commit genocide, rather than simply "democide" through neglect, is a whole different issue, however. It's an incredibly hard thing to prove in this case, or any case of alleged genocide.- TheMightyQuill (talk) 18:12, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not saying the Annett controversy is relevant here; I'm saying we have to watch out for the activities of his supporters....Skookum1 (talk) 18:22, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
EVen OMR's wary of them; see this.Skookum1 (talk) 18:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Mount Garibaldi

Hi Skookum1. Would you mind helping out here? You're probably the suitable person for this discussion since you were a volunteer for Bivouac. Thanks. Black Tusk 16:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I got a message from Robin Tivy and he agreed more references on Bivouac would be helpful. He's just working in getting full references for the recent Wilfrid Laurier article. Black Tusk 21:10, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Lyman Cutler

Can you write a stubb for Lyman Cutler. I see that you linked to him on the Pig War article. "54-40 or Fight!" --8bitJake (talk) 23:57, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm too POV on the subject to write it ;-). I'll ask one of my WikiProject Washington associates to write it....Skookum1 (talk) 00:13, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Sutlej

I feel like I've run across the word "sutlej" somewhere in reading about the Spanish in the PNW, but maybe I'm just confusing it with Sutil. A google on the word turns up mostly stuff in India. That phmc website (Canadian Military Heritage) is one I've used once or twice in writing up the Nootka Crisis page (which isn't quite ready to publish yet, maybe later today). They had a reasonable description of the Nootka stuff, but with a few errors and over-generalizations. The page you linked to surprised me with the use of the word "pirates". Even if it is not exactly incorrect to say pirates, I don't think I've ever heard the word used for "Amerindians".

I don't know how well I can help with ship info. I spent a bunch of time this week trying and failing to find ship info of various kinds -- mainly on the Spanish PNW ships and the British fur trader's ships. I'd think an HMS ship would be easier to work out, but I got overdosed with ships this week.

That's interesting about Canada "staying in denial" about there being "real Indian Wars". I don't think people in the US are taught much about whether or not there were real Indian Wars in Canada -- it's not something I've thought about much. The first thing that comes to mind is the Nez Perce attempt, under Chief Joseph, to escape to Canada, with Sitting Bull apparently urging Joseph to come, saying it is better in Canada, and so on. And the Iroquois being defeated by the Americans during the Revolution and finding refuge, to some degree, in Canada. It is hard for me to think of a major Indian War that took place in Canada, unless going back to earlier times. There were certainly a large number of major wars in the Great Lakes region, with various colonial powers on one side or another. I suppose lots of those wars are typically cast as wars between the colonial powers, with Indian armies doing the fighting for them. ..er, I would reword this whole paragraph, but have to run, might as well post as it instead of not at all. Pfly (talk) 20:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

There is a disambiguation page at HMS Sutlej, and the ship you are thinking of is at HMS Sutlej (1855). Even if a ship is the first to bear that name, it would still need to be disambiguated by a launch date or a pennant number, as the ship list page for that name would be at the undisambiguated ship name. Benea (talk) 21:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


Bralorne

No fear Skook. I figure I would throw together some lines for Bralorne to get it started. 2/3 of what I wrote is prbably BS, as I am kinda out of my comfort zone, and I only ever visited the place once--in 1974. I got your message, will do very few edits after this, and will leave it in your capable hands, I will leave to present citizens or past citizens of the place--ones with better firsthand memories. That IP address is mine, and just sfs in mufti. somedays I do not feel like logging on, or get an edit idea and want to change it pronto. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.81.76.183 (talk) 12:14, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Chinook jargon place names

Just noticed your category, added a page -- and found Tumwater Falls, which doesn't seem to be on the List of Chinook Jargon placenames. Pfly (talk) 23:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Please add it, then...there's quite a few things on that list that now have articles that aren't linked btw. Also see Talk:Lolo Peak for my surprised comments there....Skookum1 (talk) 23:09, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Also Lummi Island -- except the page offers several theories of name origin, none of which are Chinook Jargon as far as I can see... Pfly (talk) 23:19, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't Lummi come from Lhaq'temish? Similar to Squamish and Skwxwu7mesh? (Similar to a billion other names along the coast I guess...lol). Oh, and notice the ending "mesh". That means people of in the coast salish. I know, I know, there is no Coast Salish language, but many of the Coast Salish languages have "mesh" has a suffix meaning "people of". Skwxwu7mesh, Chiyakmesh. OldManRivers (talk) 23:25, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I think there's times when a CJ version of a name may resemble the old-language name, either in phonology (as in this case) or in meaning (Skookumchuck Hot Springs vs Skatin). "Crossover" I call it; not sure with the Lummi case....I'd always assumed it was CJ because that's a stadnard CJ word; but it may be the result of a non-indigenous person hearing Lhaqtemish and somehow writing it down as Lummi; or Lummi may simply not be derived from Lhagtemish and is a separate name, like St'at'imc vs Lillooet or Okanagan vs Siylx; somewhere in the early ethnographers there might be a clue. /Lh/ really isn't /l/ either - it is more often rendered as /lth/ or /kl/ or /tl/ than /l/....so I suspect they're different in origin, but I don't know for certain; User:Murderbike is, I htink, Nooksack, and he may know something. There's other cases where you might see totally anglicized names, or names that seem English - e.g. Oldman, normally oleman ("old, worn out" as well as "old man" though I think the rhythm may be different; and old-CJ names might have been anglicized since, e.g. maybe "Piah Lake" simply becomes "Fire Lake" (near Douglas), or Fish Lake/Pish Lake etc......Skatin to me is the wiping-off-the-map of a CJ name, though non-Lil'wat still use Skookumchuck; "politically correctifying" I call it, like the insistence by some that the QCI are "Haida Gwaii" or D'Arcy, British Columbia is Nequatque....that's like saying North Van is Eslahan...or this Salish Sea nonsense as if it were "correct" or "traditional" when in fact it's newly-minted......anyway back to checkign messages, there's other examples like this that'll come to me....oh yeah, Comox vs K'omoks - the latter is a nativiziation; I've seen Cayoosh/Cayuse Creek rendered by the Cayoose Creek First Nation as kiy-oose" to try and nativize it; ultimately it's a Sahaptian or Shoshonean adapation of caballo, though (can't remember which)....Skookum1 (talk) 03:54, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Speaking of newly-minted things, earlier I was working on fixes to {{Nuu-chah-nulth-aht First Nations}} and compared the Ditidaht, Huu-ay-aht, Pacheedaht etc maps....re our other discussions aqbout maps of the "sounds" as regions, i think a WestCoast-of-VI map showing the existing claimed territories might be useful, i.e. all on one map; it would help give ilustration to the non-participation of the Pacheedaht and Ditidaht in the Nuu-chah-nulth Tribal Council; the Ditidaht are in between the Pacheedaht and Huu-ay-aht, yet do not consider themselves Nuu-chah-nulth - a term invented only in teh 1970s (used to be Nootka Tribal Council); collectively, including the Makah, htey're "Aht" ("people", just as "Haida" means "people").Skookum1 (talk) 03:58, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Also also... there are several "Ipsut" places in Pierce County, WA. I noticed you've got some Ipsoot places listed, perhaps this is a variant spelling. There's an Ipsut Creek, Falls, Pass, Campground... the last of which I've stayed at a few times, very nice place. None have wikipedia pages though. Pfly (talk) 23:24, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

yes, they would be; I was unaware of that spelling possibility when I made the list (exchaustively searchiing topozone and basemap and geonames...). There's always going to be thigns that turn up because of spelling possibilities and regional variations in CJ itself.....Skookum1 (talk) 03:54, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Skwxwu7mesh place names

List of Skwxwu7mesh place names, List of place names in Skwxwu7mesh, Skwxwu7mesh place names. What do you think? I'm finding a list of more places, some of which are necessarily villages, but places of importance. Things like mountains, water-body's, villages, camp-sites, etc. Thoughts? OldManRivers (talk) 23:22, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Lists are usually for extant or possible articles, so a non-list article is more like it; Skwxwu7mesh toponymy or Skwxwu7mesh geography maybe....you've noticed Category:Chinook Jargon placenames maybe? Just made it earlier today....dont' think there's anything that applies in Skwxwu7mesh territory except Skookum Creek (near Mamaquam, right?.....always wondered about Tokum Corners at the south end of Alta Lake; taghum means "six" but if that's the root, before the hippie skiers mangled it, what would it be six miles from anyway? The Northair Road, or Greenmount/Soo Valley maybe.....come to think of it I've never quite bought the name of Alta Lake as coming from Latin for "high", but from CJ for "here and now"; any idea how old the name is?. Hmmm maybe BCGNIS has something....Skookum1 (talk) 03:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I beg to differ. There is lots that applies to List of Skwxwu7mesh placenames. First, there all the villages I have currently, then rivers, mountains, like Cheakamus River, Mamquam River, Stawamus Chief, Elaho River, etc. Then, I wanted to add the names for places that have European names like Mount Garibaldi and such. There was the thing you mentioned a while ago which was Skwxwu7mesh Wild Spirit Places, but that's a term that came from the Squamish Nation Xay Temixw or Squamish Nation Land Use Plan. (Which I've been meaning to get a hold of. The band office is so damn secretive and corrupt.) In any case, "Wild Spirit Places" was coined from there and doesn't really have any reference to anything else. So, if there was an article about that land use plan, it might work. But, there are "sacred" or "spirit" places located in my territory, most of which isn't published anywhere. All this editing and contributing to wikipedia has me realizing that a good 2/3rds or 3/4ths of my culture, history, people, is undocumented. Some would say that's scary, but I tend to think it's because we do have a lot of it, that's still alive. OldManRivers (talk) 04:05, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Right you are about the places that have adaptations of Skwxwu7mesh names, or things which there are articles for which also have Skwxwu7mesh names; this occurred to me just as i finished that and started browsing my watchlist.... so a list we could 'get away with" but there'd still be some unlinked on it; which is alright I guess....about the band being secretive, they're not alone; it bedevilled me when working with bivouac because I was always tryng to find out the St'at'imc names for places in the Lillooet Country but no information was forthcoming from USCLES (their culture/education dept), and I remember a certain local at Shalalth saying that they didnt' want people knowing their placenames as they were trying to protect their culture....invisibility isn't a very good protection, I'd say. My overall comment that any band govt should hear - "Publish or perish"......Skookum1 (talk) 04:11, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Also bear in mind that "verifiable" means only that; somethign doesn't have to be published to be verifiable; I've been citing Dan Marshall's UBC thesis on the Fraser Canyon Gold Rush a lot, and elsewhere academic papers - unpublished and only in libraries, public or private, can be cited....so long as someone can theoretically check them.....but I guess they might not have cataloguing systems as reference points....Skookum1 (talk) 04:14, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[unindnet]List of Halkomelem placenames, List of North Straits Salish placenames, List of Kwak'wala placenames, List of Nuu-chah-nulth placenames (problematic as Nuu-chah-nulth language doesn't include Ditidaht and Makah names....but you get the idea....start with Skwxwu7mesh and let's work out from there....List of Lushootseed placenames seems obvious enough, though, as also the Halkomelem one (which can include Hulquminum, Hunquminum and Halqemeylem...).Skookum1 (talk) 04:17, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Ships and Masset

I've watchlisted those ship pages you mentioned, but I'm not sure what I can add offhand. My ship knowledge and research is pretty minimal, though I just got a big thick book on the naval history of Britain on the recommendation of a friend. I'm still vaguely looking for some kind of history book on the Spanish navy and its ships, etc, with the kind of PNW detail I'd like. There must be thousands of books about the Royal Navy and British ships in general, but next to nothing about other countries, Age of Sail era, except maybe the US. Ah well, in a week or two there will be a new baby in this house and I'll have no time for anything at all anyway. Your comment about Masset being a Spanish given name is interesting. Something else to keep my eye out for more about. At the bookstore this evening I browsed and almost bought (maybe I should yet get it) a book about Robert Gray. It had a chapter about his stay in Clayoquot Sound and the destruction of Opitsat. I only skimmed, but it seems that in addition to Wickaninnish's people, a sizable party or three or Haida and Tlingit visited Gray's winter quarters there. Also of interest to me was reading that when Gray ordered the destruction of Opitsat the village was empty -- they destroyed the buildings, but apparently all the people had already left. Hmmm.. I guess I should have bought the book. I didn't because it didn't seem as scholarly as I'd have liked. Pfly (talk) 02:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

The idea is to let you know the article was there in case you came across anything about in the process of looking up other things; how I found the Estevan Group for instance was that way. As for the Royal Navy, there's a paucity of British knowledge or interest in this quarter of the Empire; perhaps becaues not as glamorous or, some would say, strategic as the Raj or the Far East or Africa (I disagree but that's a vast tangent); although I'm managing to connect with the Royal navy project/workgroup areas/people for sorting out som RN ship details and I've also undertaken to do the who's who when possible (as with HMS America (disambig that, cant' remmber the dab); ditto in Howay & Scholefield I just found more of the passenger list for the SS Pacific that I haven't added to that article yet but could; with implied notability from the account warrnating redlinks; it's also how I found Boone Helm (posted that to the Outlaws WikiProject in the hopes someone will write it, otherwise just google it and have a fun read; almost too nasty to make into a movie, that guy....the Hannibal Lechter of the Old West...made it to Barkerville, got hung south of the line, nobody knows how many he killed in total; I think he may ahve been the guilty party at Birken lake/Tenass lake, where there wa a triple murder in the wake of the gold rush that got pinned on a Mr. Poole, namesake of Poole Creek, a locality, who was later vindicated....if posthumously). So the idea with me launching these stubs on related stuff to what your'e working on - Labouchere Channel/Passage came up before - is to have something in palce so small additions, when found elsewhere, can be added on, without hte labour of building a fully researched article; also re all that I think it was a Henry Labouchere the ship was named after, maybe HBC BoD member at the time; teh site the ref is from is a family/genealogy site (minor nobility); the title is ironic in a family-joke way as it turns out. The cast of characters across the Odl West was the same as that in BC; the border was very porous and, as I didn't get around to in my latest retort to Aboutmovies, recent historiography in BC has embraced the idea that what went on in BC is very much part of American history, but because it happened somewhere outside US borders, it's not studied or iconicized; ditto with Nicaragua etc (1830s/40s Nicaragua I mean), less so with Mexico. And they posit (Marshall, Hauka and a few others) that the history of t he Pacific Northwest can no more be stiudied without refgerence to parallel eras/casts of characters in BC than BC can be studied without the PacNW; and the deep connection to California - I've got to send you the LoC for a paper on The Development of Communicatoins in Early British Columbia in UBC, - interlibrary loan/fiche copy possibel. - which Canadian historians don't get; still there's lots of BC historians who knkowing about WA/OR/ID history but then they generally don't really know much 19th Century BC history like they shoudl either; they're more obseesd with deconstructionist analyses and propaganda-spew on how things must be seen, not how things were....so the papers that are more cholarly, of late, you have to read with a can of Raid on hand; and of course Howay & Scholefield and Robie Reid and Begg and so on you have to scan past the overt British pompousness/snittiness (JB kerr's particularly bad) and often rank racism ()especially again in Kerr; H&S are equaninamous - sp? - but they just pass lightly on native history/culture, though respectifully I'd say, for "odl white man history"; Begg I haven't gotten to yet, but I'm delighting in "The Thompson Country" by Mark Sweeten Wade whose The Cariboo Road, if you come across it, you should snap up (within reason, it might be pricey, it's rare I think); but "The Thompson Country" is on lien - google "Thompson Country"+Mark Sweeten Wade]] and you'll find it; I'm reading it in a nifty page-turning thing/experiment from Microsoft....btw did you see the egging in Budapest on teh boob tonight? - anyway back ot the watchlist; baby coming, huh? Congrats. First or are you used to it? (if you ever get used to it....). You're in SEattle right? where excctly? Kinda know my way around; if you've never been in the Nordic Museum in Ballard, it's kinda interesting, wish I had time to write about Scandinavian settlement/colonization in the pacNW but then I wish I had time to write a lot of things; I don't have kids, but my works are my babies, and I've got to get producing CDs and get on people's cases to get me vid'd properly, so how much more Wiki I'l be around for I don't know; I'm just trying to lay out infrastructure that makes it easier for others to compound upon; and take issue with, ahem, things I don't like the sound of, or know otherwise, or know some obscure thing about (usually and most often in a particvular book, but not eidetic enough to spin off page numbers...). Anyway the online MS Wade is really good, and allows me to finally write Thompson Country - a lot of which is from hasci desdription but I'd been lookign for a good cite for the region-name itself (the "Country" cat hierarchies was my invention....). Anyway g'nite, ulness on another talkpage later...time for a smoke. BTW of my classical tracks you listened to which ones did you like? Gonna compile a CD of that stuff, too, just to have; gotta start makign dough to support my wikihabit somehow; improbably it may be through music ;-). OK, later, if I forget to say so best wishes for the birth and "hope everything everything comes out alright" ;-), and enjoy the long rollercoaster ride that will begin until you finally get to kick him/her out of the house.... Have fun on the day....Skookum1 (talk) 03:28, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
This is part of why I like the Meinig books (Shaping of America and Great Columbia Plain) -- while his focus is the geographic history of the US (or in the 2nd book what he calls the Great Columbia Plain), he takes a broad view that quite frequently delves far into Canada, not to mention Mexico, and much else. Not only does he investigate the way US history extended into Canada, but the way Canadian history extended into the US as well. There's one section with a map I like, showing what he calls "Greater Canada", which extends into the US in various places to varying degrees. I can relate to this having grown up in Buffalo, which felt very much like a part of "Greater Canada". His "Shaping of America" books are vast and sweeping, so do not get into fine details so much. The "Great Columbia Plain" book is more regionally focused, and so has a lot more on cross-border stuff, like the fur trade era. I suspect part of it is a focus on "regional" geographic history, like Meinig has, demands looking beyond political boundaries, while a more standard history is often based on politics and thus constrained by political boundaries. Meinig is also quite good about including indigenous peoples into his writing. ...The Cariboo Road sounds familiar, as if I just saw it used at the bookstore this evening. I'll have to check again. ...second kid for us -- two boys, fun fun. We currently live in Edmonds, just a bit north of Seattle. Spent some time renting a place in Queen Anne but there's no way we can afford a house there. We talk about one day moving closer in toward the city, maybe West Seattle, where house prices are not absurd yet. But for now Edmonds is a decent compromise -- a bit suburban sprawlly, but with a "real town" older core, ferry terminal, right on Puget Sound which I love. I haven't been to the Nordic Museum in Ballard, although I've gone by it many times. My Mom once wanted to go when visiting, but it was closed -- she is of Swede-Finn ancestry. Her father came to America from Finland around 1915 or so. Interestingly he first went to Canada -- I'm not quite clear on the details, but he eventually ended up in BC, then crossed south to the Puget Sound area for a while before ending up in the San Francisco area where my Mom was born. The old family joke was that even though he came from Finland, Canada was just too cold! (my Dad's side is strikingly different, going back to the 1600s in Virginia -- essentially as "American" as one can be without being totally Indian, and there's some of that in there too). Anyway, I'll try to write about music stuff later -- have to regroup my brain. Pfly (talk) 05:15, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Greater Canada, cute; although it's still spotty; only some of Whatcom County is a branchplant of hte Lower Mainland - malls at Bellis Fair and so on, Birch B ay, Point Roberts; a lot of even border-flanking areas is utterly American, even when close ties across the border e.g. between Lynden and Abbotsford, exist. "The Angle" in Minnesota is dependent on Winnipeg, or so I'veh eard....never seen downtown Edmongs, though been tangled in rush hour traffic somewhere insdie it more than once while dropping by someone's place en route down I-5 to OR. If The Cariboo Road is there, grab it and you wan't regret it; just scan the preface and you'll get an idea what I mean; t here's a bit in the opening or the foreword maybe where he deswcribed the kidn of people - of men - who made it through the arduous path to Eldorado; I'd like to see it added to teh Demogtrahpics of BC and history of BC pages, it's a classic dfescription of the pioneer/frontier mentality that's so un-p.c. these days (I was raised around it, coming frmo development towns like Bridge River). Anyway, gettin' late; interesting that you're "Old Stock American"....did you know that something like 60% of old-stock Americans have aboriginal blood, with an even higher percentage among a certain vintage of Blacks/Afro-Americans (due to plantation life, as natives were the original slaves, who were replaced by Africans as the livign/workign conditions depleted their numbers...got all that from soc.native long ago.....). British Columbia klaxon that I am, neither branch of my family was in BC before WWII; and cross-border Scandinavians within this region are part of its overall historical context (both my Grand-Dad and Dad were dual and lived at various times on both; Grand-Dad was in both Us and Canadian Armies, in fact....).Skookum1 (talk) 05:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Oh yea, the whole Indian slavery thing is (despite the poor quality of that page) an interesting and mostly forgotten bit of early colonial history. I looked into it quite a bit a few years ago, which culminated in writing up a page on the Yamasee War -- a war which had a lot to do with the end of the Indian slave trade and its eventual replacement with African slaves. The idea that Indian populations were depleted by slavery, or that Indians made "poor slaves" compared to Africans, gets brought up a lot, but I don't think it stands up well when examined. I think the main reason why there was a shift from using Indian to African slaves had more to do with geopolitical issues like the Yamassee War. In a greatly simplified nutshell -- the early colonists were dependent in so many ways on the Indians, and at a serious military disadvantage (South Carolina came close to being wiped out in the Yamassee War -- and could have been had events played out just slightly differently). Add to this the rising power of France, not to mention the lingering power of Spain, and the need for European powers fight via armies of Indian allies, and the reckless danger of Indian slavery becomes obvious. Tribes like the Yamassee thrived by being slave raiders for the English -- raiding the entire Florida peninsula to the Keys -- and when sources of Indian slaves acceptable to the English dried up (ie, Spanish Florida), it's no surprise there was big trouble. Finally, African slaves were simply not available in quantity north of the Carribean before about 1710-1720. So put together the danger of Indian slavery and the wars it caused and the frontier chaos, plus the British take-over of the African slave trade and its huge growth in the early 18th century, and... well that explains the shift for me. Anyway, an old minor pet peeve of mine -- I had to reply! I'm curious about Meinig's Greater Canada now, perhaps I'll look at that map again. But it is late, so until next time, night. Pfly (talk) 06:08, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I looked up the Meinig section I was thinking about re "Greater Canada". I misremembered some things. I'll send a little ramble email instead of more here. Pfly (talk) 20:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Tsunamis

Hi there. Do you have an opinion on whether "Historic tsunami" should become "Historic tsunamis"? If so, please let me know what you think here. --Doradus (talk) 20:15, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

SS Ships etc.

Heya, yea I've just poked at that page now and then... I kind of like it as a sort of sandbox-like place to organize ships for future page creation (and keeping track of what ship pages do exist). And ok, I'll remove SS and such when it seems best. Re: Golden Hind, that's fine with me -- I'm sure it is a near-and-dear thing in BC -- it is in WA and OR too (more so in OR perhaps since it's more likely he stopped somewhere along the coast there). Over time I've come to see Drake as less worthy of the honor he tends to get -- little more than a pirate who did no real exploration and no known discovering of anything new (mostly just keeping to seaways already blazed by the Spanish, while attacking them on the way). I've thought about it in relation to Cortes and Hernando Island, supposedly for Hernan Cortez -- making some people cringe a little about having placenames honoring such a person. Drake may not have been quite as bad as Cortez -- but he didn't have the chance either. No one finds it of questionable taste to have placenames honoring Drake, but Cortez? I dunno, they both seem pretty nasty characters to me. They made history of course, so things are named for them. Anyway... neither here nor there, just some personal thoughts. The main point/analogy though is -- perhaps Galiano did name Cortes Island after Hernan Cortez -- after all the English named things after Drake without thinking it of questionable taste (I wonder what the Spanish thought of Drake though). Both Cortez and Drake played important roles in the earliest days of each nation's imperialism in the New World -- both became part of their nation's imperial mythology.

The story of the North West America, Santa Gertrudis la Magna, and Santa Saturnina, is interesting. I began to make a page for all three. My plan was to describe all three on one page, though they could be broken out into separate pages too -- I figured might as well start with one page and break it out if needed later. I was going to name the page North West America (ship) ("ship" because I'm not sure if it was a sloop or a schooner), and make redirect pages for the Spanish names and other variants. I'm not sure when/if I'll get to it though. I think there were several Spanish ships named Santa Gertrudis, including at least one major ship-of-the-line from the early 1700s, so there'd be a need to disambig that name. The full name of the Spanish renamed North West America was Santa Gertrudis la Magna (never seen the "la" spelled "La", nor the shortened Santa Gertrudis I think -- too easy to confuse with the earlier warship(s)). There's even some cape or bay or islet in Nootka Sound named Santa Gertrudis la Magna. In any case, it was disassembled in San Blas, then shipped back to Nootka Sound and rebuilt as the schooner Santa Saturnina -- presumably with a notably different design. The Santa Gertrudis la Magna was also improved significantly with a disassembled British ship captured at Nootka Sound, so it also differed from the North West America in some notable ways. To confuse things even further there was another Santa Saturnina that worked in the Pacific Northwest that is unrelated to this one. Anyway, I was going to look at my edits more closely and perhaps get it clearer / more correct -- but I suddenly had to go, so I saved as it was. I'll look again. Oh there's also something about the alternate name Orcasitas (however that is spelled) -- I realized you had it right as the name of... Adventure I think? -- the Santa Saturnina was given the nickname / alias La Orcasitas and Horcasitas... I didn't have time to fix my edit about that one. Pfly (talk) 20:27, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh and one final thing -- I've noticed that Pethick tends to spell several ships differently than most other sources I have -- he writes Activa for what others spell Activo, for example. There's also disagreement over diacritical marks for Spanish names, which I can't quite sort out in most cases -- Aranzazu vs. Aranzazú for example. Pethick calls Galiano's Sutil the Sútil though, which I've not seen anywhere else. I suppose if pages ever get made it's just a matter of having redirects too. Pfly (talk) 20:31, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Hey, Drake is my hero. Sailing around the World, singeing the King of Spain's beard, looting, pillaging whilst doffing his cap to Elizabeth. There is a mountain here called the Golden Hinde in honour. The spanish hated Drake, and called him Dragon, after the corruption of his name into Spanish. sfs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.81.76.183 (talk) 21:50, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Not a corruption at least re archaic English; "darke" could mean a firedrake or colddrake, a dragon. Draken in Scandinavian etc. And yeah, I think it was in the rebview of Frank ney's book i saw that the Pacific Coast of the Spanish New World was harrassed by the "corsair and privateer" - buccanneer is only a more romatinc term - for acts of priacy and attkcs on Mexican and Central American ports/settlemetns/ not a nice man at all. Btu even in Mexico, people don't un-name things named for Cortez/s, and of course it's a cvommon family name as well as having other meanings. I'ts our culture taht ties its knickers in a not about acceptable and not-acceptable words or people/names. Drago and Dracoin iberian/italian and DRagan and Dragana Balkans are also common mediterranean-argtot names, also rooted in teh same meaning; also meang both male goose and dragon. Albion, British Columbia, also, is a half-commemoration of Drake, by way of the legend of Nova Albion, or at least meant to invoke it in a patriotic sense, as it also means "England" "in the poetic sense" etc. (Abla, "the white"). Anyway g'tnie, did some recordings kinda finally kinda tired now....Skookum1 (talk) 04:23, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


Wasn't Frank Ney that Pirate/Mayor of Nanaimo? sfs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.81.76.183 (talk) 13:12, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Homathko Icefield

Just thought you would like to know I contacted a volcanologist that studies the volcanics in British Columbia and she said the Homathko Icefield has probably not been studied for volcanism and will look into it soon. So the cirular feature you mentioned could might as well be an ice-filled caldera. Pretty scary something like that has probably not been noticed by scientists. Black Tusk 03:40, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Not been noticed because it's only been recently that they've had technology to sense what's benath it; sure how deep it is maybe, but not what hte rock composition was. Scientists are conservative about datat sometime, not venturing a speculation just eecause the data's not complete. A Homathko eruption looks to be on the order of Yellowstone or Meszah; I don't mean in type but in scale; hard to imagein what a giant set of laharas and associated megatsunamies could do down Knight and Bute Inlets, or a surge down the Chilctoin and Fraser from melt or tectonics on that sdie. They were all scary at one time, remember that; it's the unlookedd-for ones you gotta worry about; Homathko at least seems pretty sleepy, no hotsprings right on hand and such; but it sure does look like an ice-filled caldera; the issue is how ancient.Skookum1 (talk) 04:15, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, you can see its rim using Google Earth or WikiMapia [5]. How can you tell Homathko seems pretty sleepy while the area is not really known? There could easily be earthquake activity like Silverthrone, Meager, Cayley or Garibaldi. But I have noticed most Garibaldi eruptions generally get younger from north to south; Silverthrone less than 1,000 BP, the Bridge River Cones less than 1,500 BP, Meager 2,350 BP, and Garibaldi 10,700-9,300 BP. Homathko lies between Silverthrone and the Bridge River Cones and if its age is very ancient I wouldn't think you would notice the caldera because of how high the erosion level is there. Silverthrone is pretty scary as well though because it's poorly studied and the Ha-Iltzuk Icefield could easily melt to produce lahars or mudflows if an eruption were large enough despite the fact that Silverthrone and Homathko are both large calderas. I don't think there's any hotsprings in the Silverthrone area either and it has eruptions less than 1000 years old. Black Tusk 05:40, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Naḿtuy7

I think you of all people would like to hear this. I was visiting with my grandmother yesterday, and in all the years, she never told me this. She forgets a lot of the language when she doesn't use it, but the more I've been learning it and using it with her, the more she remembers. Neat eh? Anyways, she told me the word for Vancouver in my language is "Naḿtuy7". haha. Obviously no citations for that. It doesn't even show up in any of the language books I have. Which makes sense because there is things they never got. They must of used maybe...20 elders in making the dictionaries, at the most, and that's not everyone that's existed that knew the language. Lots of it died and may never be remembered, and some, tiny bits, still exist with the remaining elders we have left. Anyways, thought I would share that with you. lol OldManRivers (talk) 22:15, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, now that I thought about it, it makes sense and I figured out the translation. Naḿ translates to "go", and tuy7 translates to "to go across a body of water." So where my grandmother was saying a noun or was saying a verb, I'm not sure. I like the word as a verb. Naḿtuy7 translates to "Going to the place across the Water". haha. OldManRivers (talk) 22:26, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Seems really similar in concept to the common North Shore-ism "over town" as in "I went over town today". Native placenames often seem to be verbal participles in nature, rather than nouns in the usual sense; Slosh/Sla-ush and Nkiat at Seton Portage mean "coming in sight of" and "sitting on top of", Nkoomptch, the canyon between Seton lake and the Fraser, means "water crossing over", the name Skayuks for the people who once lived in the Stave River basin means "everybody died", Eeyulshun for Jericho which I've mentioned before means something like "soft sand squishing between the toes" (Musequeam in origin I think, from what I remebmer Matthews said).Skookum1 (talk) 02:16, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Cumshewa Inlet

Hi,

Regarding Cumshewa Inlet, next time perhaps it's better to create a new page in you user area first, and getting it into a reasonable shape, before putting it into an article.

Checking new pages, I came across it, and was starting to clean it up. I see that you've now been doing just that; but it would save duplication etc. if you could use a sandbox next time?

Thanks, --  Chzz  ►  04:45, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Sheesh, it was only six minutes old.....Skookum1 (talk) 04:49, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I know, but new pages have to be patrolled, and a lot of work goes into that effort. I'm sure you can appreciate than hundreds of pages are added every day. There are users constantly checking new pages - we have to, because certain material needs removing quickly. Some of the people who patroll can be a little over-zealous, and pages like the one you were working on often get flagged for speedy deletion, and vanish. I hope you can see why it's better to get an article into a 'usable' shape before putting it up as an article. If you do have any questions, or if I can help at all, please contact me on my own talk page.
The article looks pretty good now.
Thanks, --  Chzz  ►  08:43, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it's time

After doing my work on my peoples article, I always wanted to do a FA. I remember you mentioning Dan George would be a good one. I agree. I imagine there would be other people from this area that would be good too. But I think I'll be more motivated and more passionate if I choose someone closer to home for me. I was looking at today's FA article and it inspired me to want to create one. So, I just wanted to let you know I'm going to focus my efforts to create my first FA article on my great-grandfather Andy Paull. =) OldManRivers (talk) 00:22, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Campbell River

I've cleaned up most of the links that should have been pointing to the city. However, there's one in Chinook Jargon that I'm not sure about. The line is as follows: tyee — leader, chief, a really big chinook salmon (Campbell River) (emphasis on second syllable). But I'm not clear: is this talking about a salmon from the river, in which case the link should be left as is, or is it implying that the term is particularly associated with the city, in which case the link should be changed? Bearcat (talk) 18:18, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

That's primarly a referecce to the city, or rather to the maritime region around it re sport fishing; the Campbell River basin still has a much-dwindled salmon run but it's marginal since extensive hydro and coal-mining projects there....the maritime region is wiki-articled as Discovery Islands but that's not so much a reference to the waters; a link to the city will do. Most of the salmon, sport or commercial, that are caught in that area are part of the Fraser salmon run, which as its redlink indicates deserves an article (big politics - Salmon War if you google that phrase will turn up a ratsnest of background on a particulr episode of BC-US politicking. Anyway use the city link, and maybe tweak the wording to the "Campbell River area".Skookum1 (talk) 18:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. I've also now deleted the Campbell River redirect, so the title is now free. From what I can tell, though, the one on Vancouver Island is probably sufficiently more important than the other one that it can legitimately go at "Campbell River" instead of "Campbell River (Vancouver Island)". A dab page isn't the only kind of disambiguation that's available to us — we can also stick a "hatnote" ({{otheruses}} or one of its related templates) at the top of the article. Bearcat (talk) 23:53, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Er, OK, guess I better make that river stub pronto as it's a likely way to search for C.R., B.C.; I'll make th other too so the Salmon River (White Rock; Salmon River (British Columbia0 can go to the Campbell River-area one, as it'll have the appropriate dab line anyway; I was looking up a map to determine its distance and also its BCGNIS listing, sop it's ref'd - when you woret your recent replies; I've been out since and am about to have a late dinner but will try to remember to stub 'em up later.tonight.Skookum1 (talk) 02:33, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Late night ramble

Heya, that's interesting re: Koyah. My info on him came from an apparently rare book on James Colnett -- a book I wouldn't mind getting, but it costs an arm and a leg and isn't available at the Seattle library. I made an inter-library loan request, but have not heard back for a while. Apparently the Vancouver library has it. Still, with my extremely limited and fragmented time now I'd rather own it and not have to worry about returning it. The book has logs, or log excerpts from Colnett and Duncan, as well as a large number of indigeneous oral histories, from the Haida to the Heiltsuk. Ah well.. so many books so little time. I did break down and get the book of excerpts from the logs and journals of Vancouver's trip around Vancouver Island. It also includes excerpts and summaries from the Spanish logs of Galiano and Valdés. Well done book, though not without the occassional off-hand comment about how the Spanish were lazy and the British heroic.

I know exactly what you mean about wiki being bottomless and the feeling of having tons of articles to get to. It can be a little frustrating. On the other hand, I noticed something the other day that made me feel a little better about wiki's geography and history pages. Being a music and music theory kinda guy as well as geography and history, I've dabbled a little into wiki's music theory pages. And I've noticed, and continue to notice, that music, and especially music theory, seems to be a topic rife with mean people, flame wars, article deletion campaigns, and general unfriendliness. In contrast, geography and history pages seem to mostly involve friendlier people and a much more accepting, "we'll work it out" approach. It reminds me very much of college -- I got a degree in music and then one in geography, and was amazed at the difference between the departments, faculty, and general "culture" -- the music department was torn by faculty feuds and obvious hatreds, while the geography department was, ok not an academic utopia, at least a very friendly non-confrontation place. In short, yea, wiki is bottomless, and it can be frustrating, but at least you and I tend toward the geography and history parts and not the music parts!

I've already entered my unavoidable wikibreak, what with newborn Caleb here and 2 year old Nathaniel becoming increasingly needy, probably due to Caleb. I seem to be able to come here and look around and make small edits, but nothing big. Btw, if you care to see these little monsters and other pictures of my PNW, I have a flickr account at http://www.flickr.com/photos/pfly/

Also, I've been meaning to reply to email topics we've touched on, but haven't the time for the long and well written email I had in mind. One question I wondered about -- you are in Halifax now? What took you there? It's a long way from Lillooet. Given the nice pictures on one of your webpages of the Lillooet Fraser Canyon area -- very impressive and vast landscapes (I was amazed when passing through the region once) -- I can understand how Halifax could seem... what was the word? Tight? I haven't been to Halifax, but I often browse a flickr person's photos from there... quite the sea, if nothing else. There's also history in the area, of course. I'd be curious to see the Bay of Fundy and the various tidal flats that the early French Acadians diked off and made into farmland before being evicted back in the day.

I like that line about Canada having "too much geography and not enough history". Hadn't heard that before. The gold rush history stuff I've never quite gotten into, I'm not sure why. Maybe my 3 years in Colorado just post-university gave me gold rush history overload. But you grew up in gold rush territory, eh? --in 2001 Tara my wife and I took a long road trip from Seattle up to the Canadian Rockies and back. On the return we came down from Jasper and skirting north of Kamloops on some small rural road, ending up near Lillooet, then down to Squamish. One of the highlights of the trip was our amazement at the Lillooet area -- the massive and surprisingly arid canyons. It was quite unexpected.

I'm sorry I haven't made the time to write about your music. I downloaded a bunch of your mp3s and have listening to at least some of them -- many of them are on the long-ish side, which is trickier for me to give me full attention to these days. I've been wanting to write something to you, but have not yet had the time and brainpower to do it. I'd try now, but it's already too late, I need to go to bed. Maybe for now suffice it to say, I'm thrilled to see people making music. The world needs more music, and art in general, if only to offset the surplus of stockbrokers. Ok, good night. Pfly (talk) 05:57, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Robson Bight

Needed stub created, but more content should be added and any corrections needed made. If it happens to be your cup of tea, dig in. --KenWalker | Talk 05:02, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I noticed you'd made it; long overdue given the locatino's prominence in eco-politics over the years and in orca studies etc....not much to add, other than historical twiddles when found....btw t eh term "Desolation Sound" for me has always meant/included what's northwest from Quadra and Cortes; mabye that was a misperception adn I know the term properly only applies to the opening of Jervis Inlet (sort of); "Discovery islands" sounds newish to me, in fact, or does it date to Vancouver's voyages I wonder? Pfly seems to get all that stuff....btw I've started Donald McLean (fur trader) at last, though not saved it yet; part of a preamble for Fort McLoughlin and so on. Look for it tomorrow.....I just got my glasses back after leaving 'em at the sound studio earlier (ADR for an indie I wa in, plus some song cuts), so gotta check around things I haven't been able to look at for a few hours; including your input at Caddy Bay....next up.Skookum1 (talk) 05:36, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

List of ghost towns in British Columbia

There are a bunch of expression errors in the location column when I go to this page. --KenWalker | Talk 18:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I fixed Hendrix Lake, British Columbia which is the only one I could see. What else did I miss?Skookum1 (talk) 18:31, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Really, hmm. Many of the coord links turn up as broken here. In fact most of them. Any that have the actual lat/long blank show up broken. I am working my way through them and adding a BCGNIS link to those I am fixing. --KenWalker | Talk 21:38, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
maybe I don't see the problem on my browser? What I see is the little globe symbol on the blank ones; I'm using Camino (Firefox/Mozilla on Mac0SX). NB locaations in the QCI don't appear to be searachable by BCGNIS; or lots of them anyway; things that do show up on basemap don't on BCGNIS sometimes elsewhere else, and vice-versa. BTW I just made pTahltan, British Columbia and Grand Canyon of the Stikine; the latter could use consdierable "enriching", wehtehr history or natural sciences or scenics/ecology; see also Talk:Sacred headwaters.Skookum1 (talk) 22:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
That must be it. I am using Firefox in Linux. I don't have anything else here at home to check what it looks like in windoze but the changes I am adding will be useful anyway for some and the BCGNIS links may be useful as well. I am down to the C's now. More time than I expected . .. --KenWalker | Talk 23:46, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I assume when you refer to the globe image, that it has the lat/long next to it? As to BCGNIS, I am picking the link I think is right for each locality as I go along or I don't add it. Let me know if you think I have any of them wrong. Grand Canyon of Tahltan, ought to go there and check it out. --KenWalker | Talk 23:49, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Barnstar

File:Interlingual Barnstar.png The Geography Barnstar
For a staggering amount of work and passion on Pacific Northwest geo articles, especially. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 18:15, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

eu:Txantiloi:Geografia izarra

sigh

His edits are annoying. I'm traveling right now (In Seattle, just came from L.A. Remember that Edward Curtis film I told you about? Well we (Gwa'wina Dancers) are traveling and performing our songs and dances following the showing of the film. It's pretty wicked...but anyways.) so I don't really want to deal with it yet. Some of his edits I'll understand debatable things, but others are flat out wrong. I don't know the policy on reversing page name changes, but when you find the exact policy, send me the page so I can have a read also. I figured the naming of that article would go to war again one day after the last battle ended in a stalemate and since only one person really gives a shit about putting this stuff up (with the assistance of many wonderful friends ;)). Whatever. I'll work on changing them back, in the near future. OldManRivers (talk) 06:26, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

FYI Canim Falls

The rock at Canim Falls appears to be layers of lava per some of the photos I seen. Are these lakes and rivers in Wells Gray? I'm planing to create some lakes and rivers articles in that area since that's in the volcanic field. I'm currently trying to get the Anahim hotspot article to GA status though. Black Tusk 23:50, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Longhouse references

Hey Skookum. I'm looking for books that have illustrations or information about Coast Salish styled longhouses. The only source I have right now for longhouses related to Skwxwu7mesh ones are from Conversations with Khatsalano. I would like to find sources to cite that are more accessible. I know I've seen some books talking about them, but if you know of any, I would appreciate the help. Thanks OldManRivers (talk)

Walden

Actually, per Wikipedia:Categorizing redirects, categories are allowed to be on a redirect if they apply to the redirected subtopic but not to the target article as a whole. For instance, Walden as a whole isn't a ghost town or a company town, so those categories don't belong on that article at all — but the former Creighton neighbourhood, although it's within Walden geopolitically, is a ghost town and a former company town. Bearcat (talk) 15:01, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

hmmm, this gets complicated in BC, then; Moodyville, Stave Falls, Wellington, Fraser Mills, Barnet....I can think of dozens of company/ghost towns currently inside municipalities, some subsumed totally, some surviving as neighbourhoods...; some ghost/company towns remain towns/localities today, just greatly dwindled from their former size...(List of ghost towns in British Columbia is very incopmlete btw). Fairview is now wihtin the municipality of Oliver alhtough other than a couple of vinyards there it's compeltely empty, but it shouldn't be in the Oliver, British Columbia article. Why can't Creighton be a separate article? Or is that too easy?Skookum1 (talk) 15:06, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Redirects don't have to be categorized if you feel it would be inappropriate to do so, but whether the redirect is categorized or not, the category shouldn't be placed on the parent municipality instead if the parent municipality isn't a ghost town itself.
Creighton used to be a separate article, but it was redirected to the parent article on Walden because there was a consensus established that the individual neighbourhoods in Greater Sudbury were not important enough, and their separate articles not well-referenced enough, to stand as 50 individual articles rather than seven merged articles about the pre-amalgamation municipalities slash Community Action Networks that they're a part of. I know that some people think that every individual geographic locality is automatically entitled to its own separate article regardless of how stubbish and unreferenced it is, but that's not really consistent with actual Wikipedia policy — until an article can be written that meets WP:RS, WP:V and WP:N, communities within municipalities should only be redirects to their parent municipality. Bearcat (talk) 15:23, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Really? Huh. I guess the Sudbury paradigm in cases like Nanaimo - which is an agglomeration of coal-mining camps/villages, originally (plus Fort Nanaimo, which was the original non-indigenous settlement and doesn't have its own article and that's probably a redlink). Lately I've been working on a series of local-community/rural neighbourhood articles/stubs for places like Mission and Maple Ridge, e.g. Silverdale and Stave Falls re Mission and Albion and Kanaka Creek and others in Maple Ridge. Maybe I shouldn't be; but the Mission and Maple Ridge articles are already large enough and these other places still have distinct identities within them; same as we have Kitsilano and Gastown and articles within Vancouver, i.e. as branch-off articles from Vancouver....part of the issue is local sensitivity, say in the case of Maple Ridge, where the rural communities/identities aer trying to resist being subsumed into the developer-motivated/controlled municipal mass/identity.Skookum1 (talk) 15:38, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
An unincorporated community or neighbourhood is still perfectly valid as a potential article topic, don't misunderstand me there. But separate articles do still need to be properly referenced. Bearcat (talk) 15:47, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Gulf of Georgia

I've been slowly reading "A Discovery Journal", which summarizes the logs, journals, and reports of the Vancouver Expedition, along with Galiano and Valdés. It is quite detailed and often quotes journals and logs directly. I just read the part where Vancouver formally took possession of the PNW region and thought you might find his exact words interesting, especially wrt The Gulf of Georgia. This is from Sunday, June 3, 1792 (or by Vancouver's reckoning, June 4, the birthday of King George III), done at the south end of Whidbey Island in today's Puget Sound:

...took possession accordingly of the coast, from that part of New Albion, in the latitude of 39°20' North, and longitude 236°26' East, to the entrance of this inlet of the sea, said to be the supposed straits of Juan de Fuca; as likewise all the coast islands, etc. within the said straits [mainly the San Juans, as they hadn't found many other islands yet], as well on the Northern and Southern shores; together with those situated in the interior sea we had discovered, extending from the said straits, in various directions, between the North-West [Haro Strait?], North [Strait of Georgia, which they'd only glimpsed so far], East [Bellingham Bay, etc.], and Southern quarters [Puget Sound]; which interior sea I have honored with the name The Gulf of Georgia, and the continent binding the said gulf, and extending to the 45th degree of North latitude [on the Oregon coast], with that of New Georgia, in honor of His present Majesty. This branch of Admiralty Inlet obtained the name of Possession Sound; its Western arm, after Vice-Admiral Sir Alan Gardner, I distinguished by the name of Port Gardner; and its smaller Eastern one by that of Port Susan [Lady Gardner].

The (north)-eastern arm of Possession Sound is still called Port Susan, but the (north)-western arm is now Saratoga Passage, thanks to Charles Wilkes. Port Gardner survives in a much reduced form as the bay and harbor of Everett, Washington. Anyway, I mainly thought you'd find it interesting, if you didn't alreayd know, that Vancouver's Gulf of Georgia was apparently meant to include all of Puget Sound as well as the Strait of Georgia -- in fact, all the waters beyond the east end of the Strait of Juan de Fuca, which Vancouver seems to have thought ended around where the San Juans start, not all the way east to Whidbey Island as defined today -- so The Gulf of Georgia in his terms included not just the waters around the San Juans, but Puget Sound, Hood Canal, and all the rest. Anyway, I hadn't realized he defined it quite so broadly. Hope you're feeling better. One thing I've found I can do in bits and pieces of time now is poke at this book and vaguely sketch a map of Vancouver and Galiano's circumnavigation of Vancouver Island. Like other maps, it may never be finished, but who knows. Pfly (talk) 18:09, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Interesting to find all that out; I'd expected only the San Juans-Gulf Islands are, plus the Strait of Georgia; but given that there were no boundaries in those days it's not surprising to find that Vancouver's labelling took in Puget Sound et al. The modner-day equivalnece of Strait of Georgia/Gulf of Georgia Iv'e always known was wrong, but "Gulf of Georgia" isn't in official gazettes, and "Strait of Georgia" is used to mean waters that are two or three straits away (e.g. Stuart Channel, where Chemainus is) and Ganges Harbour etc. The bitch/irony is that the renaming campaign for Salish Sea is based on a number of really wrong fallacies, including the Strait/Gulf confusion and the completely false claim that it's a "traditional name", which is complete and utter b.s. and "false history". I'll try and work this definition into the Strait of Georgia article and the Salish Sea one - and in the latter case tehre's more citations around, and the respective B C/US differentiations of the use/agenda can be made pretty clear. OR? No, the o.r. is coming from the re-namers, not the sources. BTW does Vancouver define also New Hanover and New Bremen? I've seen them on maps but without the latlong definitions; and that mention of New Albion can probably be added to the New Albion article somehow. If the aera hadn't beenpartitioined and/or Vancouver's intentions to develop the region as a tranplantation colony (instead of Austrailia) doubtless the Gulf of Georgia name would be for the whole inland sea (and the renaming agenda would be a little more clearcut). Mind you, we'd all be a bunch of beer-swilling, sheep-grinding yobbos (moreso than already, and with even funnier accents) and might have rebelled againsy the home country in the meantime (that's all soc.history.what-if material....). BTW you may come across a map or other meation nameing "Quadra's and Vancouv er's Isle" also as "Wakish Nation" - I think it was on hte flyleaf of a certain BC centeniial book (1958 centennial) that the title oof which escapes me just now. I think it's only fair if the waters get named after the Salish that the Island gets renamed for the Wakashan peoples; that should make the Salishan peoples happy, huh? ;-) I despair of the half-education of moderns, it makes me feel positively ancient and Metternichian conservative; as if changing names were going to fix things.....btw have a look at the lead article in the current issue of http://thetyee.ca and look for my username in the comments forum, that's my bit of dirty work for the day; I've always thought of doing a History of American immigratino to British Columbia as an apposite to History of Chinese immgration to Canadea (which is teh only ethnically-specific Canadian immigration/history article), plus ones on Germans, Italians and others (we're all just "Ejuropean" in "newspeak"). I've found some neat cannery pictures and finding out this and that about canneries, and many of the pictures have struck me as looking a LOT like the piers and wharves in the old country; not surprising given that it was the Norwegians who started the fishery/canning industry on the Coast (after Ft Langely, that is); see Hans Lars Helgesen and Tallheo, British Columbia.. Anyway time for lunch, doing the laundry, somebody scored me some music-making vegetation and it's sunny outside; and yes, I'm feeling a lot better, thanks. Feisty, even.....Skookum1 (talk) 18:43, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Haven't seen mention of New Hanover or New Bremen yet. I found the New Albion and New Georgia refs interesting -- I think he had a rather precise notion of where one began and the other ended, but haven't looked closely enough yet. Already edited the Strait of Georgia page :) (perhaps clunkily). Erp, would write more but suddenly got to run, later! Pfly (talk) 19:01, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
I've really gotta start a sandbox and/or migrate my PacNW history resources sandbox to the wikiproject area....List of Land Districts in British Columbia I've put off for a while, and this map I've managed to find again, by accident; posting it here as maybe you might find some interesting details in the names used on it; this was 1896 and it's interesting to see the areas still marked "unexplored" - this was IMO thte last area of the northern hemisphere (incl Yukon and parts of Alaska) to be so marked.....Skookum1 (talk) 19:23, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Back for a few -- I've seen "Quadra and Vancouver's Island" sure, but not "Wakish Nation". I'm basically with you on renaming things, although there are some cases where I'm more easily swayed, as with various racist and insulting names (there's even a book called "Squaw Tit" about this kind of thing) -- but it is a slippery slope no doubt, and too often renaming results in a loss of some historical clue (eg, towns named -burgh in the US were rather sweepingly renamed -burg in the 1800s -- making it hard to see if there is a pattern between the German and the Scottish suffixes). Whoop, gotta run again, heh. Pfly (talk) 22:30, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

And Dutch, too, no? Hagensborg, British Columbia uses the Norwegian/Danish/Swedish form (dont' think it's in Icelandic...no fortresses in Iceland...). As for Squaw Tit; run a BCGNIS on "Mount Sheba" and even that site styles the old usage "Sheba's Breasts" when really it was Sheba's Teats or other "dirtier variants"; the summit of Mission Peak (look that up in bivouac.com - my pic) was always called "the Nipple" or "the Teat" but not on the map as such; though there as a "the Nipple" down near Boston Bar yet....ou do realize "Grand Tetons" translates (les grands tetons properly declined) as "Big Boobs", huh? ;-). me too, gotta run; only to the gym though, not to diaper/bottle duty....Skookum1 (talk) 22:35, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Yea, though -borg is rather uncommon compared to -burg and -burgh, at least down here. Some years ago a French speaker told me the meaning of Grand Tetons and I've never forgotten! Actually she said a better translation would be "big titties". Pfly (talk) 07:08, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

lek'lek'i

Foot of Abbot Street and Carrall Street. Maple Leaves Dropping. Luck-luck-eh would be a simple pronunciation. OldManRivers (talk) 21:32, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Hyas mahsi, I'll add it to the Gastown article. One little bit in that Dominic Charlie website will be useful for a certain fact template on Chinook Jargon, also. Tukamonuk mahsi...(a hundred thanks).Skookum1 (talk) 21:34, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Oh also in the Domenic (Dominic?) Charlie page, there was something about a longhouse out at Jericho (Eeyulshun, although I think that's Musqueam and not Skwxwu7mesh; Matthews renders it as "soft sand squishing beneath the toes" or the like), was very interesting; in his map I think it's not spoken of as a village; but one house could still be a danged large thing and pretty much a small hall (as in my own people's culture at one time, but about that another day...); there must be other references to its size somewhere.....also if you wouldn't mind, a good thing on that table of villages would be for all the alt-spellings that show up in these articles to be included (and cited, to prevent someone like TMiB from deleting them again); ditto with the altnames on Khatsahlano and so on; "inclusiveness" is what I'm after; as with the long list of altnames on Wuikinuxv and other similar pages; encyclopedism is everything-about-everything, not deciding "which is right"....anyway just cookin' dinner, got to play some tunes, feeling better; I like the "maple leaves dropping" translation - I've mostly taken it as "grove of little maples"; somewhere elseo n the watefront there was another "maples" name, big maples though I think,; mabye the Hastings Mill site (foot of Gore/Dunlevy)?Skookum1 (talk) 21:40, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Iy’a’l’mexw = Good land = Jericho Beach
I7iy’a’l’mexw = Good Camping Grounds = Eastern Jericho Beach
I just went for a stroll through Stanley Park yesterday with my sisters. We walked past Ch’elxwa’7elch, Sktsa7s, past to Pa’piy’ek where I got a chance to see Susan Point's newly created Coast Salish art styled House-Posts. Their quite nice. And the gift shop there has a nice wall display of native history to the land that was compiled by Skwxwu7mesh, Musqueam, and Tsiel-wautulth FN's, with the Parks Board. We continued on to X̱wáýx̱way where I shared a song with my sisters that belonged to Aunt Sally (Sekwaliya). It was a beautiful day and a beautiful walk. I really do think my people should put a longhouse at X̱wáýx̱way. (Coal Habour, Deadman's Island, Brockton Point, Lumberman's Arch) OldManRivers (talk) 21:58, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
A worthy goal, indeed. It must be strange to have Haida and Gitxsan and Bella Coola etc totems on what had been a very sacred place to the Skwxwu7mesh; I know you're Kwakwaka'wakw, albeit not Lekwiltok/Wikayi/Weiwaikai, but to have totems of raiding chiefs on-site and nothing Skwxwu7mesh.....a longhouse, and a suitable potlatch to open it, would certainly spice things up in that area now the zoo is closed.....build it and put it on yourself, you could earn quite the name, no?  ;-) Skookum1 (talk) 22:16, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Ah, I don't think my people care as much about that as they care that we a.) don't have a presence in Stanley Park, and b.) the land was stolen and we want it back. A lot of my people say we should build a longhouse there. Not a touristy one, but one for actual ceremonies. OldManRivers (talk) 22:56, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
And wouldn't Brockton Oval/Brockton Green be a great place for an annual pan-tribal slahal game, no? And revive those old war-canoe races in the harbour; way niftier than dragon boats, I think, and far more "traditional" (especially if you can get the non-indigenous crews shown in War Canoe to take part, and I htink you'd find them interested and enthusiastic; I'm a fan of Alex Vancoeverden btw, though I don't have many sports heroes...). Add in a public salmon barbeque for the hwelitum and you coudl start yourself a grand new tradition, done right...not thinking touristically; more in the vein of retrenching Skwxwu7mesh identity/culture/history in the eyees of the prevailing society....(which aint' just white anymore, please note....well, really it never was but that's a longer story...).Skookum1 (talk) 22:21, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm thinking I'm going to have my 19th Birthday in August at Brockton Point or Lumberman's Arch. My birthday is in July, but I'll be on the Tribal Journey's for most of July so I can't celebrate it with all my friends and family down here till after I get back. Bring some BBQ's, some frisbee's, a slahal set. I was actually wondering what would happen if we started a fire on the beach and cooked salmon (like, traditionally with wooden sticks and all). I do have some idea's for reclaiming that part of the park, but that is another long story. OldManRivers (talk) 22:56, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, I daresay if on a certain morning you had two dozen war canoes pull up and unload a feast the Parks Board and cops would be hard-pressed to stop you; too impolitic. If you want it back, take it back ;-> Skookum1 (talk) 23:00, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
That was the whole idea of my proposing you hold a potlatch and a house-building; nobody could really stop you, if you really wanted to do it; sure get some press and focus on the legalities involved as to your people's dispossession. Don't wait for anybody's permission, start planning now. "He who won back the place of masks" would be a name worth earning, no? Might as well be you as the Kiyapilano-pretenderSkookum1 (talk) 23:02, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

[undent] BTW next time you're over at Senakw please stroll over to the heritage marina by the Maritime Museum and have a look at Munin, the 1/3 scale longship that's there, a project of the Scandinavian Centre in Burnaby (mostly Sons of Norway but the Swedes et al. may be involved, or supportive anyway). That's my people's version of a war canoe; I rosed it once ir twice, but it was mostly older people and kids; woulda like to get a crew of rowing studs and get the thing up to speed (longships are fast) but when the left oar doesn't know what the right one is doing, it was more of a hassle; nice picnic out in the waters off Kits Beach though; damn I got a good sunburn taht day, too....Skookum1 (talk) 22:24, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

PPS seems to be Tomahawk Restaurant could use a good article and a copule of easy-to-get pics; scan me a copy of taht famous placemat of their too; it's part of "BC culture" such as it is...would the totems on the outside of the restaurant qualify as "Coast Salish art" or are they more Northwest Coast-influenced? AT least definitely not cigar-store stuff, but actually indigenously-made yes?Skookum1 (talk) 22:37, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Mmmmm, now I'm wishing for a Tomahawk Burger. A nice good Thunderbird Burger would be good right now. OldManRivers (talk) 22:56, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
It's the Lumberman's Breakfast I remember and usually had; though I've had better at various diners and camps and such. They still call it that, not a Logger's Breakfast (which sounds more modern to me); did you know it and the Chinese Smorgasbord - a unique Chinese-Scandinavian concept evolved in the first days of outside workers here, where the cooks were usually Chinese; the Norwegians and Swedes liked to eat off sideboards, grazing style but in a patern; and they came up with Chinese food served the Scandinavian way (and, perhaps to Scandinavian as well as English and German tastes; see Chinese Canadian cuisinse and its American counterpart for fun ;-0 (although far afield from "Chinese & Western" as I remember teh signs often saying); The Chinese Smorg and the Lumberman's Breakfast are two "unique" pieces of Vancouveriana, though they became widespread throughout the Pacific Northwest; the working stiffs had no natioality in those days; anyone frm everywhere got work on both sides of hte border and went back and forth, so it's hard to say; I was always told Vancouver. Anyway, go get a burger and take your camera, and collect some history on the building, and enshrine it in Wikipedia; not a longhouse but at one time at least a loghouse, huh? ;-) Anyway just came in from playing; in the night up in Dalhousie, ragin' away, been days since I've been able to play like that, just made some porridge and get updated on the watchlist. I had some thoughts while playing about Xweyxway and certain legalities about its history that will interest you, but I'll save it for email as really useful things are sometimes best kept tactful; except to say that ir relatees to the Military Lands Scandal of 1859 (or early '60) which was when the military lands were set aside; the new Lands Act of 1860 is the point of departure, but I just sent you a paragraph I'd written from this point on......Skookum1 (talk) 06:10, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Ahoy Hoy, Whoi Whoi. I am all in favour of the Squamish Nation pulling up on the beacb at Lumberman's with a dozen canoes, and building a Long house. It would be far better than the present Aquarium,pool, cinderblock bog or clutter there now. sfs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.81.76.183 (talk) 01:29, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, on a complete off-tangent that's kind of grim in nature to do nowadays, requiring old-growth trees, was the first version of Lumberman's Arch; a Parthenon built from giant trees; an emulation of the Classical roots of western civilization, and it's not a bit ironic, and at least one of them who built it must have gotten it, is that the ancient temple design was in the shape of the offering; it was how the meat and bones were stacked; doint it with trees, the very backbone of the economy etc....anyway it had a lot more class than the "modern" lean-to stump and log (which is meant to look like a clear-cut, I think) and maybe there could be a Skwxwu7mesh adapation of the ancient pagan design .... OMR? Not meaning cooptation; more like taking power over something....anyway g'nite, except to endorse the idea of Skwxwu7mesh control over at least some of the park as part of a settlement; of course condos at Beaver Lake and a casino at the Pavilion would be nice too ;-p just kidding. I'm all for using the old monkey/seal cage as a public gaol for miscreant politicians.... Skookum1 (talk) 06:41, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Mmmmm. The Rickshaw Diner on Kingsway with their irredescent red fried pork sauce. And Ling's Next door, and the Ho Ho, and the Ho. Sadly all we have now is Hon's Wonton which fills the bill when I want some Hep. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.81.76.183 (talk) 23:26, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


Wasnt the original Lumbermans built for the PNE or that poxy royal the Duke of Connaught. There were a bunch of these prime Pseudostuga pagan temples built--Seattle Portland. Wasn't there a doric pile in Horseshoe Bay? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.81.76.183 (talk) 22:45, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

BTW given the discrepancies we already know about between Skwxwu7mesh toponymy of the area vs Matthews' account of Musqueam toponymy (and "real" Musqueam toponymy, if we could ever find waht spelling system is right...) and apparently Tsleil-waututh usage of Halqemeylem - ?? - they're Sto:lo- grouped but what's their language/dialect? - anyway lla this would make an interesting table/list. I noted your version of Prospect Point, which I know is Chay-thoos (with an umlaut/two little dots over teh second 'o') and otehr differences in our lists elsewhere; and I've seen other indigenous spellings of many of these; hard to all pull together maybe but less confusing if, again, all are included; I recommend redirects for all optional spellings; the idea is to help people find something, not insist they know already what it's called or spelled as....the bit about the liquoar dealings out of New Brighton/Hastings was also intersting, more on taht later after I go prove to myself I'm actually healthy again....Skookum1 (talk) 22:46, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
BTW Lighthouse Park could use some indigenous content; likewise Whytecliffe if there's an article, etc.Skookum1 (talk) 23:06, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Topozone alternative

I think I recall you saying something about it being too bad that topozone.com has changed and no longer has good free topo maps easily accessed, right? I just discovered/realized that there's another way to view the same topo maps, and in a better user interface (google maps style), so I thought I'd mention it in case you didn't know about this. When you search the USGS GNIS database and get a feature result page (you know, like one of U.S. Geological Survey Geographic Names Information System: Pull and Be Damned Point these) there are a bunch of links on the right side for viewing the feature in various web mapping tools. One is called "GNIS in Google Map". When you click on it you get a popup window with a nice large google map interface with some custom USGS thingies at the top. In addition to google map's usual choices of map, satellite, terrain, and hybrid views, you can also pick DOQ, for USGS aerial photos it appears, and Topo, for topo quads. Like topozone the resolution changes to the more detailed maps as you zoom in. You can pan around all over just like in regular google maps. And you can get a nice large window with a much less annoying cluttered interface "frame" than topozone had. I haven't looked closely enough to see if there is a search tool easier that the GNIS search. The only whoops I've found so far is if you hit refresh on your browser it takes you back to the very first view instead of refreshing where you've panned to. Pfly (talk) 00:11, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I've been looking for a way to query BCGNIS for contents of the name origin field; e.g. so you could just search "cannery/canneries and any number of topics; not just the title field. Fleixible it's not; I think the datab ase file is the way to go, although I don't think it was the name origin fields in it; maybe, I hv aen't looked; if it does then it makes it easeri to compille lists o/maps of mine, port/cannery, village, etc for mapping purposes; and somewhere in one of my hauled-around hard drives (I have an external port but it's not working) I've still got reams of my data points for irvers and such from Bivouac; data packrat, y'know ;-) Not sure what I have still, we'll see; if I can get those drives workign again; wishing I understood map/data softwares better, there's interesting maps I could spawn.....Skookum1 (talk) 00:32, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Edziza

Not sure you know this, but do you know if the Edziza massif includes the Spectrum Range? I'm trying to expand the Edziza article with length like Garibaldi, but not sure what material is appropiate. Black Tusk (talk) 02:56, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

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