User talk:Redrose64/requests

Button Fact

Hi Redrose64. I'm a bit new to the editing of pages in Wikipedia so thought I'd drop you this note on the Button fact you mention on the discussion page of "List of Formula One World Drivers' Champions". Sky Sports have the fact listed on their website at http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12538_5637133,00.html.

Can that now be used as a reference to allow you to include the fact on the main page? Regards, Boris —Preceding unsigned comment added by Borisbadgerbear (talk • contribs) 21:56, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Updated 2009 Formula One season with fact, welcomed above user also --Redrose64 (talk) 12:23, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Should Persecution of Falun Gong be renamed into something else?

That is the question that is repeated again here: Talk:Persecution of Falun Gong#Requesting Move. Since you are not an involved editor, would it be possible for you to provide an input? Thank you in advance for your time! --HappyInGeneral (talk) 17:13, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I understand, that is OK, if you know somebody who would be interested in this topic please let him know. The point is that the page does need some impartial assessment. Thank you again. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 00:45, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

help with updating {{cite video game}}

Been trying to figure out how to update this template for something akin to the other templates like {{cite book}} and {{cite video}}, but as i'm not skilled at coding am running into a wall. One of the key problems is core doesn't have enough feilds. Video games are inherently non-linear so many of the usual citing of specific sections fail. In addition, like other media, every video game uses different divisors to determine where it occurs, if any.陣内_Jinnai 23:03, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

{{underconstruction}}

The thing to to is to examine all the distinct parameters which are recognised by {{Citation/core}}, and decide which would be most suitable for the information which {{cite video game}} is to show. For example, {{Citation/core}} has |Date= and |Publisher=, whilst {{cite video game}} has |date= and |publisher= - there is clear correspondence there. |Edition= could be used for |version=; |Surname1= for |developer=, and so on. (please wait, Redrose64 (talk) 23:53, 6 December 2009 (UTC))

 Not done Since this is outside my area of interest, I've really not done anything about it. I see that a thread has now been raised at Template talk:Citation/core#Need updates to support "cite video game". Any further comment should be directed there. --Redrose64 (talk) 14:21, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Bruce Rowland (drummer)

This article, thanks to your help, is now long enough for a WP:DYK nomination; I'd like to add his work with Ronnie Lane and others, but his chronology from 1983 - 1992 on Allmusic is blank; any ideas? Also, it seems difficult to update to what he's doing now apart from the occasional Fairport live gig. I'd propose for DYK "... that Bruce Rowland, Fairport Convention drummer, also backed Joe Cocker at the Woodstock Festival and played on the original Jesus Christ Superstar album?" - a bit banal, perhaps, but I've had less exciting hooks accepted. Let me know what you think. A free image would also help, but I can't find one. Cheers. Rodhullandemu 00:28, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

I've never participated in a DYK nom before. However, your statement above is entirely supported by Patrick Humphries. Page 87 again! No pics I'm afraid. --Redrose64 (talk) 00:45, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

OK, I'll nominate it tomorrow, and if accepted, you'll get a new shiny. I think a discography section should be added, and again, tomorrow. Cheers. Rodhullandemu 01:03, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Goodnight all. --Redrose64 (talk) 01:05, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Hawkhurst branch

I know this is a bit outside your usual territory but I wonder if you would be interested in helping us get Hawkhurst Branch Line to FA status in time for the 50th anniversary of the line's closure on 10 June 2011? A question has also arisen in connection with the proper referencing of a journal article using the sfn template: when quoting a journal article - say from January 2010 - should the correct formulation be {{sfn|Smith|January 2010|p=1}} or should the month be dropped? Lamberhurst (talk) 08:55, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Have replied at User talk:Lamberhurst#A challenge --Redrose64 (talk) 14:45, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I've copied the discussion over to the article talk page. Mjroots (talk) 07:18, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

An editor has now started the assessment for GA status. No comments yet though. Mjroots (talk) 06:20, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

A reward for all your hard work. Mjroots (talk) 17:59, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

This user helped promote Hawkhurst Branch Line to good article status.

Oooh, ta! One for the userpage. --Redrose64 (talk) 18:01, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

The 50th anniversary of closure approaches. I'd like this to appear on OTD. I did ask at Wikipedia talk:Selected anniversaries about this a while back but have had no feedback. Mjroots (talk) 11:47, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

It would be nice, sure, but I'm not sure how I can help to push this along... I'm not on the OTD team. BTW Lamberhurst reappeared yesterday, after almost 6 mths away. --Redrose64 (talk) 15:02, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, I managed to get it on OTD :). Must get that photo of dad's showing the special coming off the line at the point where it joins the SEML uploaded and on the article. Pity it's only about 2½" sq though. Mjroots (talk) 17:12, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Talk:List of rail accidents in the United Kingdom

I asked some questions in the Criteria for Inclusion section on 20th Dec but no-one has yet responded. Can you take a look? GrahamHardy (talk) 18:20, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Bosnian Royal Family

Hello, and thanks for editing the page I wrote. I hope find it worth of Wikipedia, given that you took time to correcting it. But of course I may be wrong. In any case, would you care participating in the ongoing discussion on the proposal by some that the entire page be deleted, which was posted quite hastily 10 minutes after the page was up? The discussions are at Talk:Bosnian_Royal_Family, Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Bosnian_Royal_Family and related at Talk:History_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina_(1463–1878). Regards Bosnipedian (talk) 14:45, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

These all appear to be heated debates. --Redrose64 (talk) 15:02, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, true. Although, when you invest time writing a comprehensive article with many new reliable references presenting new findings by historians on a subject, and get faced with a hasty deletion request within 10 minutes from putting the page up, what can you do but defend yourself. Bosnipedian (talk) 16:55, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Revision of old FAs: LSWR N15 class.

Hello again. Whilst the K/K1 article is under FAC, I have been working on revising and improving some current FAs in the light of obtaining more material and experience with more recent FAs. Would it be possible for you to have a look at the result, which is located at User:Bulleid Pacific/Sandbox 1? The intention is to give it the lowdown on C/E and prose, then paste it to the main article, possibly putting it under FA review if necessary. If you could, I would be most grateful. Cheers, --Bulleid Pacific (talk) 17:36, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Do you want me to amend directly, or suggest on a talk page? If the latter, which talk? --Redrose64 (talk) 18:03, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

You can amend directly, as I have a hard copy saved on MS Word should anything go drastically wrong. Ps. Just discuss any problems on my talk page under an appropriate title, and I'll follow from there. Cheers, --Bulleid Pacific (talk) 18:16, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Is there anything that you've been able to find wrong with the revision in my sandbox thus far? --Bulleid Pacific (talk) 14:37, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Midland Railway

I see that you've created Template:MR colour, which is useful but touches on a problem that I've unintentionally created. If you look at the colours list you'll see that the MR and LMS colour codes are identical. My understanding is that whilst both used venetian red , the MR's version had a slight brownish tinge (maroon?). I played about with the MR colour but couldn't get it quite right. Lamberhurst (talk) 21:29, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

The hex colour values are indeed identical. I took the MR value from the list which you linked above. I did consider setting up {{MR colour}} simply as a redirect to {{LMS colour}}, but then decided against because one may need to be amended independently of the other. At any one time, the locomotive and carriage shades were supposed to be identical; but regarding the actual shade, it depends which books you read!

... the subject of Midland carriage livery and that of its LMS successor has already been covered comprehensively in ... Midland Style, published by the Historical Model Railway Society in 1975 ...
Midland Red (Crimson Lake) - shade remaining consistent from 1883 to 1923 (and during the LMS period to 1939), save for any variation in manufacture. There was never an official instruction to alter the colour itself until 1946 when the LMS changed it to 'Maroon'. (Jenkinson & Essery 1984, p. 179)

The standard LMS body colour was crimson lake, being basically the ex-MR shade. This colour has been discussed at length elsewhere so the argument will not be repeated here. The shade may have become a little darker as the years went by but until 1946 the nomenclature never changed. In this year, the LMS changed the name to maroon although whether there was any noticeable change in the actual colour is conjectural.
In 1956/7 when BR adopted an all-red coach livery, a definite attempt was made to revert to the pre-war MR/LMS shade and careful matching of painted panels indicates that this was achieved, especially when BR coaches were newly ex-works. At the same time, BR never reverted to calling the shade 'crimson lake' and it was always referred to as 'BR locomotive hauled stock maroon'. However, as the shade is more recent in history than LMS red, it will probably help readers to visualise the colour more readily. (Jenkinson & Essery 1977, p. 41; Essery & Jenkinson 1991, p. 41)

The paint recipe is also given on subsequent pages of the two LMS books. There are, however, factors that affect the final paint shade which are independent of the proportions of pigments used - these include (but are not limited to):

• the nature and colour of priming, sizing and undercoats
• the nature of the binder used when making up the paint (linseed oil was normal in Midland/LMS days)
• the number of main colour coats
• the number of varnish coats
• the type of varnish used
• actions carried out between coats (such as stopping and rubbing-down)

Considering, for example, the type of varnish; in LMS days the varnish was linseed oil based, and was a definite yellow. Modern varnishes are normally polyurethane, which is almost colourless. To appreciate the difference, look at a coach painted in LNWR livery. The upper panels of preserved examples are normally pale blue - but they should not be. The correct colour for LNWR upper panels is

dry White Lead, ground in raw linseed oil with '... just sufficient Ultramarine Blue added to counteract the yellowing of the varnish in the finishing coats' (Jenkinson 1978, p. 22)

Thus, by analogy, a preserved coach in allegedly LMS livery may also be "too blue", because the varnish isn't yellow.

• Essery, Bob; Jenkinson, David (1991). The Illustrated History of LMS Standard Coaching Stock - I: General Introduction and Non-Passenger Vehicles. Yeovil: Oxford Publishing Co. ISBN 0 86093 450 0. T450. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
• Jenkinson, David; Essery, Bob (1977). An Illustrated History ofLMS Coaches 1923-1957. Poole: Oxford Publishing Co. ISBN 0 902888 83 8. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
• Jenkinson, David (1978). An Illustrated History of L.N.W.R. Coaches (including West Coast Joint Stock). Headington: Oxford Publishing Co. ISBN 0 902888 90 0. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
• Jenkinson, David; Essery, Bob (1984). Midland Carriages - An Illustrated Review. Poole: Oxford Publishing Co. ISBN 0 86093 291 5. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

Now, Essery & Jenkinson are normally very WP:RELIABLE sources. --Redrose64 (talk) 23:02, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Based on the above - would you not say that █ #AF1E2D ("sign red") would be more appropriate as the MR colour? If not, could I ask you to have a gander at these two pages (warmer reds and colder reds) to see if there's a better colour? The current crimson lake colour is too light (see for example the modelling page here: stationcolours). Lamberhurst (talk) 09:27, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

I have examined the stationcolours page, particularly the blocks titled "London, Midland & Scottish Railway Red"; "Midland Railway Dark Red" and "British Railways London Midland Region" - these three colour dabs are identical in shade, being, quite simply, #800000. This is reasonable given that, as stated above, the BR 1956 colour was matched to "the pre-war MR/LMS shade", so the three should be the same (where a difference existed in real life, it was between the earlier and later LMS colours, the later one being darker). Whether #800000 is a faithful reproduction or not is an entirely different matter: this being such a precise value (50% red, 0% green, 0% blue) suggests a desire for ease of use in computer software rather than accuracy of appearance.

The problem with trying to pick a good match on a VDU screen for a paint colour is that you are considering items of different nature. The VDU screen uses emitted light and additive mixing, whilst a painted (or printed) item uses reflected light and subtractive mixing. Colour-matching one to the other hardly ever works - try doing a scan of a printed item containing an area of plain, solid colour, display the resulting file, then hold the printed item close to it. They will never look the same, no matter how much you tweak the component colour proportions. Even if you then get it to look almost right, adjust the brightness and/or contrast controls of your VDU; the colour changes immediately and the match is lost. My brightness/contrast are almost certainly set differently from yours; so what looks "right" for you probably looks "wrong" for me.

I don't think that we should seek an exact shade, but one that is representative. If the MR and LMS colours should be different, the MR colour should be the lighter one, and the LMS colour the darker. On this basis, since your suggestion of AF1E2D is darker than the existing value DC143C, then {{LMS colour}} should become AF1E2D, and {{MR colour}} can remain as DC143C. Here are some samples for comparison, together with 800000 as suggested by the stationcolours page:

Preceding station	Historical railways			Following station
Cleeve Line open, station closed		Midland Railway Using colour value DC143C		Cheltenham Line and station open
Cleeve Line open, station closed		Midland Railway Using colour value AF1E2D		Cheltenham Line and station open
Cleeve Line open, station closed		Midland Railway Using colour value 800000		Cheltenham Line and station open

--Redrose64 (talk) 16:31, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks - more complicated than I had imagined! I had become too overconfident after I managed to pin down the colours for the BR regions. I'll take up your suggestion to switch the LMS colour. It would be nevertheless useful over the course of time to add in the missing railway companies to the colours page with their representative colours (e.g. GNR/M&GN). Lamberhurst (talk) 08:40, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

 Done at least, the {{MGNJ colour}} is done, while for {{GNR colour}} I've pinched the value from {{LNER colour}}. It can be adjusted later (something darker I expect), and presently looks like this:

Preceding station		Disused railways		Following station
Terminus		Great Northern Railway To Leicester Belgrave Road		Orton Waterville Line and station closed
Terminus		Midland and Great Northern Joint Railway Sutton Bridge line		Eye Green Line and station closed

--Redrose64 (talk) 13:57, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Good stuff with the {{SMJ colour}}. A much needed colour. Lamberhurst (talk) 19:42, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

N1 class?

Hello there! Just wondering whether you'd like to have a look at the SECR N1 class article? I've spent a little time expanding it and would like to have an outside opinion on both prose and content. I've also asked EdJogg so between us we could potentially see this article through to FA. Just a thought, anyway. Cheers! --Bulleid Pacific (talk) 17:26, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

The Lizard - parishes correction

Hi Redrose64, thank you for your very helpful suggestions about Lizard parishes. In the light of your comments, I've substantially reworked the map and corrected the text here. I'd greatly appreciate your opinion again please – leave comments on my talk page as before. Many thanks, Andy F (talk) 07:35, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Time to dig out the maps; I know that I have all the OS N.P. Edn and 7th Ser maps for Cornwall somewhere... --Redrose64 (talk) 13:51, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, if you have time that's be great, thanks. I based the current version on Cornwall Council's "interactive" map which shows civil parish boundaries. My map is a sketchmap, more a schematic, so it's the approx locations and relationships we are after rather than every twist and turn of each boundary. Best wishes, Andy F (talk) 14:27, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

GWR Avalanche

This is listed under GWR 3031 Class as a 4-2-2 locomotive - but looking at the dates, I take it this is a different locomotive, using the earlier name. Apologies. I thought the standard gauge 4-2-2s were recycled from the broad gauge 4-2-2s locos - but looking at the dates, it appears not. Thanks. Mish (talk) 12:14, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

The 3031 class consisted of three groups. The first eight (3021-8) were built in 1891 as broad-gauge 2-2-2 but designed for conversion to standard gauge 2-2-2 (the conversion of these locos occurring in 1892). The next 22 (3029-30, 3001-20) were built 1891-2 as standard-gauge 2-2-2, being rebuilt as 4-2-2 in 1894, as were the first eight. The final 50 (3031-80) were built 1894-9, and were always standard-gauge 4-2-2.

None of the locos used components from any true broad-gauge engines; however, all were named, and most (if not all) reused names (but not the actual nameplates) from old broad-gauge engines, many long since withdrawn. The final 50 got names when new, but the first thirty were named in 1893 (ie those built for the broad-gauge were not given names until after they had been rebuilt for the standard gauge). Details are in

• Reed, P.J.T. (1953). White, D.E. (ed.). Part 2: Broad Gauge. The Locomotives of the Great Western Railway. Kenilworth: RCTS. p. B47. ISBN 0 901115 32 0. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
• le Fleming, H.M. (1954). White, D.E. (ed.). Part 7: Dean's Larger Tender Engines. The Locomotives of the Great Western Railway. Kenilworth: RCTS. pp. G7–G12. ISBN 0 901115 18 5. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)

BTW I watch all talk pages where I leave a message. --Redrose64 (talk) 12:59, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, interesting. From what I can make out, the 2-2-2 arrangement put too much load on the front wheels? And the 4-2-2 arrangement was phased out because there could be issues with traction using only one pair of drive wheels? I am only trying to clean up the links on the 3031 Class page - as they all link to what they are named after, not the locos themselves. I don't suppose you happen to know if anybody has ever made a OO model of a UK 4-4-2 locomotive, by any chance? There are plenty of 4-2-2s, 4-6-0, 2-6-0, 0-6-0, 4-6-2 Pacifics, etc. but I can't find any details of anybody having made any models of the UK Atlantics. Mish (talk) 13:10, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

The first 30 of the GWR 3031 class were rebuilt as 4-2-2 because of the derailment in Box Tunnel on 16 September 1893; it was partly the heavily-loaded front axle, but also the short wheelbase compared to the length of the boiler.

The 4-2-2 wheel arrangement went out of favour because of increasing train loads (corridors came in in the 1890s, restaurant cars a few years later), and the adhesive weight could not be more than 20 tons. Four coupled wheels would allow 40 tons adhesion.

There have been no 4-4-2 locomotives in 00 scale as far as I know; I have previously searched for these in

• Ramsay, John; Hammond, Pat (2002) [1998]. King, John (ed.). Ramsay's British Model Trains Catalogue (3rd ed.). Felixstowe: Swapmeet Publications. ISBN 0 9528352 7 4.

and not found anything. Neither is there anything in the more specialist books on Hornby-Dublo, Tri-ang/Tri-ang Hornby/Hornby Railways. I think the main problem is lack of scope. A man at Dapol told me they would only consider a model if it could be produced in at least three different liveries, each with a variety of running numbers. Most Atlantics were extinct by the end of 1951, so a BR livery is not possible for these; the only exception which I know of is the LB&SCR H2 class, which lasted until 1958 - but there were only six of them. Also, if a class of loco was only used in one part of the country, models of it might not sell well in other areas; for example, the GNR C1 almost never got beyond York. --Redrose64 (talk) 14:48, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Model locos

Thanks, I guess also that the chassis for the Pacifics is similar across the different variations.Mish (talk) 19:15, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Er, model or real loco? Which class(es) are you thinking of? --Redrose64 (talk) 19:49, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Model.Mish (talk) 21:28, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

OK, whilst in the past it was the practice to share components between model locos (in order to cut down on the number of new moulding tools that were required for a new model launch), that doesn't happen so much these days. The big manufacturers - Hornby and Bachmann - are in direct competition, and they are now fully aware that the model railway press - particularly Railway Modeller - will take the micrometer to all new models and check against the diagrams of the real loco. Hornby's models of Southern Railway pacifics, for example, cover three main variants: rebuilt Merchant Navy, rebuilt West Country/Battle of Britain and non-rebuilt West Country/Battle of Britain. At a casual glance, the two rebuilt varieties look the same - and maybe fifteen years ago Hornby would have made one moulding cover both - but put the models side by side, and you'll see the differences - length, wheelbase and dome position relative to the centre coupled axle are the main things to look for, but there are others. The rebuilt and non-rebuilt West Country/Battle of Britain may share some chassis components, but probably not all. This contrasts with the situation of circa 1972 when one chassis was shared by the Tri-ang Hornby Princess Royal, Coronation and Britannia. So if you can give specifics, I might be able to help further. --Redrose64 (talk) 21:58, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Nothing specific. I have four locos, only two have ever run a 0-6-0 tank, and a Battle-of-Britain class Winston Churchill made by Triang around 1969. About ten years ago I bought a Flying Scotsman, kind of in memory of the time I rode on that from York to London, which was its 'final' trip, around 1968. Then I was bought Mallard a couple of years ago - both Hornby. I was struck by how the Mallard is a bigger loco than the other two, which are about the same size. I have just picked up a Britannia on eBay. I'm quite keen to get a rebuilt Merchant Navy Class, and a rebuilt West Country Class, and the Coronation Class unrebuilt and rebuilt. That's all 4-6-2s. But I was interested in getting a 4-4-2 as well - except nobody does them, and then a 4-6-0 and 8F and 9F. Then there's That's all I was thinking about really.Mish (talk) 02:08, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Toby

Hi, Thanks for pitching in with those page numbers, a big help! Could you fill in the blanks in the Reference cite-book section too, I assumed the publisher info and made up the ISBN!! —MDCollins (talk) 11:53, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

 Done but using a 1994 Heinemann reprint, not a 1957 original. --Redrose64 (talk) 12:57, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I'm wondering whether for formalities, we should put |year = 1994 |origyear=1957 in? I don't tend to use the cite book much myself; As long as the page numbers match up, which I assume they would it probably doesn't matter too much (which is why I didn't bother citing the complete collection as the layout is completely different).—MDCollins (talk) 22:36, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

You could; but if you do that and nothing else, it'll break the short-note linking. There are two fixes for that, depending upon whether you want the short notes to show the reprint year or the original year. To show the reprint year, all the {{sfn|Awdry|1957|p=n}} must have their years altered to become {{sfn|Awdry|1994|p=n}}; however, to show the original year, leave those {{sfn|Awdry|1957|p=n}} alone but in the {{cite book}}, change the |ref=harv to |ref={{SfnRef|Awdry|1957}} .

Compare these (works best in Firefox 3+ or Chrome, not so good in IE):

Toby was needed to double-head the train.

Toby was needed to double-head the train.

• Awdry, Rev. W. (1994) [1957]. The Eight Famous Engines. London: Heinemann. ISBN 0 434 92789 9. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
• Awdry, Rev. W. (1994) [1957]. The Eight Famous Engines. London: Heinemann. ISBN 0 434 92789 9.

Specifying the edition (in this case as a year) is pretty important, since if you look at the Heinemann 1999 version (ISBN 0 434 80461 4), not only are there no page numbers, but the text is on both left- and right-hand pages, with the original John Kenney pictures cut into little bits and spread about. --Redrose64 (talk) 23:17, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Complicated huh? I hadn't seen any usage for the short-note linking template before. I've always just put it in plain text in ref tags, therefore it wouldn't be linked. Like you said, specifying the edition is important; I think option 2 is best (with the original 1957 year in the notes) even if it means changing the harv reference. I also think we should endeavour to reference from the original format wherever possible; the 1994 Heinemann reprints are fine then, as they are in the original formats - are they true reprints/re-impressions? Let's try and avoid examples like your 1999 version.

That said, as I don't have them available, it creates more work for everyone else! Especially if I put a load of ref tags in and expect someone else to clean them up with the correct page numbers etc. Unfortunately there's not a lot I can do about that at the moment...—MDCollins (talk) 23:51, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Railway line#Merger

You are invited to join the discussion here. Fayenatic (talk) 12:59, 4 May 2010 (UTC) (Using {{Please see}})

Albums by artist categorization

Hi there Redrose64, you recently took part of a discussion at WT:ALBUMS regarding the Albums by artist categorization. I would like you invite you to further comment on the subsection Albums by genre and nationality, as no one has contributed to the discussion lately. I would really appreciate comments, as I would like to get this proposal off the ground. Regards. — ξ^xplicit 19:22, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

 Not done Sorry, I am purposefully staying away from that discussion since genre provokes much more heated disagreement than is really necessary; after all, we have found it necessary to provide a range of {{subst:uw-genre1}} templates - why no similar templates for users who mess about with nationality/country of origin? --Redrose64 (talk) 19:30, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Logo positioning

Could you take a look at Ohio State Bar Association? I cannot figure out how to move the warning to the left to that it will be, um, on the same row as the template. I tried subcluding the template and putting it in the left cell of a two-cell table (with the logo in the right cell), but it didn't work and I couldn't figure out what the problem was. Some issue with having a table inside a cell messes it up. kcylsnavS (kalt) 23:21, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

First off, per Wikipedia:Lead section#Elements of the lead, cleanup templates (such as {{unreferenced}}) should appear before any infoboxes and logos.

Second, the method that I suggested for your user page (put the ribbon template inside a table) was a fudge to cope with a situation that didn't have an easier way around it. (As an aside to that, I see that you used {{subst:clear}} instead of plain {{clear}} - there is no benefit to that, and if used on an article page can make the page harder to understand). See WP:IMAGE - the proper way of aligning an image is to state the alignment within the image specification, thus:

[[File:osba logo.jpg|right]]

You could not do this with the ribbon; that is why we needed the workaround. I have amended Ohio State Bar Association accordingly. --Redrose64 (talk) 12:36, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Railways in Ely

Hi Redrose64, I thought you might be kind enough to cast your well-informed eye over this new article Railways in Ely. Thanks Andy F (talk) 20:19, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi again. The additional info on Hawk Bridge (Ely) is much appreciated. I have a photo of the deck of the new bridge which will illustrate the provision for future doubling. Thanks for your help Andy F (talk) 21:47, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Added the image now Andy F (talk) 22:01, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

River Parrett at FAC

Thanks for your previous help with River Parrett. I thought I'd let you know it is now up at FAC.— Rod ^talk 20:17, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Jolly good. I'm afraid that I can't make many comments that are not Railway-related though. I'll have a look tomorrow. --Redrose64 (talk) 20:19, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks - you helped with the harvnb ref format & now a reviewer is querying lots of the ref formats. I've dealt with some of them, however others such as "First book listed is Blair, John (ed.) (2007) Author and chapter number missing (see Hollinrake and Rippon entries below)" & "Formatting of on-line sources: Where the origin is a print sources, e.g. The Independent on Sunday, the source should be italicised, otherwise not. Check 3, 8, 9 and others" are challenging me & I would appreciate any help.— Rod ^talk 11:55, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments at this FAC. Would you like me to add back cite book, cite web etc or are you happy to do this?— Rod ^talk 20:15, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I'll do it, but tomorrow, if OK? --Redrose64 (talk) 20:27, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

That would be great - I'm hoping its the only outstanding issues. I've just realised I've just "crept in" another book - Victoria County History.— Rod ^talk 20:33, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for all your work on this.— Rod ^talk 16:40, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Queenstown Road

Hi, I replied to your message re. Brentford on my talk, but your comment regarding photographic evidence re. Trumper's Crossing Halte reminded me of the very topical query regarding Queenstown Road (Battersea) railway station and how the old signage in SWT colours and the new white-on-navy signage installed in the last 18 months both have the station down as plain "Queenstown Road". I tried moving the article to the more appropriate title a little while ago but had it reverted! Surely this must also be a case of Wikipedia:Common_name#Common_names too? Any way, just wanted to hear your thoughts on this. Things to bear in mind:

• old signage (pre-c.2009) says Queenstown Road File:Queenstown_Road_stn_signage.JPG
• new signage (post-c.2009) says Queenstown Road File:Queenstown_Road_stn_signage 2010.JPG
• on the new TfL Oystercard Map (2010) it is down as Queenstown Road [1]
• on SWT's own in-house map (current) it is also down as Queenstown Road [2]
• There are no stations anywhere else in the UK called Queenstown Road - so why would it need a "disambiguation" suffix? (this actually dated from the time when it was called Queen's Road, and therefore when it would be confused with its eponyms in Peckham, the tube station now called Queensway and the unbuilt station in Clapton.)

Leaving just two on-line sources insisting on the "(Battersea)" suffix:

• Wikipedia
• The National Rail website stations list [3] (but even here the station appears as "Queenstown Road" when you enter journey planner queries!)

Sorry to go off at a tangent like that, but as with Trumper's the photographic evidence is there! best, Sunil060902 (talk) 11:40, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

You are correct in stating that the "Battersea" was incorporated in the name to distinguish "Queen's Road Battersea" from "Queen's Road Peckham". You are also correct in stating that there is no other "Queenstown Road"; there have, however, been a "Queenstown" (renamed Cobh circa 1925), and a "Queenstown Junction" (renamed "Cobh Junction" circa 1925, and Glounthaune 27 August 1994).

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (UK stations) normally overrides WP:COMMONNAME; note in particular Official names: "The official name of the station should normally be used with the appropriate suffix, except where this would be ambiguous. If there is any doubt about what the official name is, the name given on the station platforms should be used.". Now then, official name. As you say, National Rail Enquiries - Station Facilities shows "Queenstown Road (Battersea)". Network Rail should also be a good guide. The timetables may be downloaded at Network Rail - Current Timetables; to save you hunting around, there are three relevant downloads:

• Schematic Map shows "Queenstown Road Battersea"
• Stations Index shows "Queenstown Road (Battersea)" (p. 27)
• Table 149 shows "Queenstown Rd. (Battersea)"

Three different versions; but all have the word "Battersea". I'd say that the page is correctly named as Queenstown Road (Battersea) railway station. --Redrose64 (talk) 15:32, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm that's odd, but above you quote that "If there is any doubt about what the official name is, the name given on the station platforms should be used." Could Network Rail be out of date? National Rail at least have "Queenstown Road" when you enter timetable queries, even if it retains the three-letter "QRB" code. Network Rail seem to disagree with both the operator (SWT) and TfL. And wouldn't it be odd that the name of the Wikipedia article be different from the name of the station as it appears at platform level? (I notice in passing that St Pancras station is labelled by Network Rail as St Pancras International, but that's a whole other story...) best, Sunil060902 (talk) 16:09, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

I seem to recall there was some heated debate about the naming of St Pancras railway station on Wikipedia... move, move again, move back etc. To save a similar non-consensus move/revert, you might like to ask about QRB at WT:UKRAIL. --Redrose64 (talk) 16:22, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Red for Danger

I just checked my copy and it clearly says First published 1955, though mine is actually a reprint of the 1960 Pan edition. I've replaced the list on the Rolt page with a link to the template. It may be important for other purposes but if we do it for one book, why not all the others which have numerous editions? Can I leave you to update the template? Chris55 (talk) 13:08, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

The 1960 Pan edition is essentially a paperback version of the 1955 1st edition (Bodley Head, hardback), but I wouldn't like to say whether the page numbering didn't change between them; this does sometimes happen. That's not really a problem when listing the works of an author, however.

I don't actually like {{Rolt-Red}}, although I have amended it twice: both times were for cosmetic purposes. It's one of a group of templates intended to simplify citations to commonly-used books; unfortunately, when citing sources, you're supposed to indicate the specific edition that you used, and not every edition that exists. For example, my Red for Danger is a 4th Edition; now, if I were describing (say) the accident at Paisley Gilmour Street (16 April 1979), I could ref that from my copy of RfD (it's on pp. 301-2). However, going solely by the date of the accident, it cannot have been mentioned in any edition of RfD prior to 1979, so going by that book's publication history, won't be in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd editions (it's not in the current edition either), and I'm willing to bet it's not in your Pan edn.; if I were to use {{Rolt-Red}} in a citation for that particular accident, it would be misleading (as well as cluttering the article unnecessarily). At the moment, only four pages transclude this template. I ought to check them for edition compatibility.

As for other similar templates: by the same reasoning, if there is the slightest chance that any of these templates has been used for the purposes of citation, it must not contain more than one edition. --Redrose64 (talk) 14:50, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

So what would be the answer for works which have several editions? Create a different template for each edition or, if possible, factor into the template a means to identify which edition is being cited? I have the same problem for Clinker's passenger stations and goods depots, for which several editions exist. Lamberhurst (talk) 15:02, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Either: so long as you don't end up with multiple editions shown for one citation, and existing citations are not compromised.

I don't use these templates, mainly because I can't be sure that the person who constructed the template has exactly the same edition as me. I don't remove them from articles when I encounter them: but if an article has a bare {{Butt-Stations}}, I'll add the relevant page info to that - it now takes the |page=, |pages= and |ref= parameters.

Instead I have an off-wiki database of my books, which is easy to query in such a way that a ready-built {{cite book}} is available to be cut-and-pasted (I began to keep static copies of these templates at User:Redrose64/Library but fell seriously behind). The same database can be queried to generate the relevant {{sfn}} instead of, or as well as, the {{cite book}} --Redrose64 (talk) 16:00, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Have to say I'm lost by this argument. If you want to refer to a page number in the 4th edition, why don't you do just that? How does it help to have a list of all the editions of a book? It just confuses the issue. Chris55 (talk) 22:46, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

That's my point: if you use {{Rolt-Red}} in a citation, you get most (not all) of the editions, so it is indeed confusing. --Redrose64 (talk) 14:48, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

As a direct response to Lamberhurst, if you are using the book citation template (Wikipedia:Citation_templates) then there is an "edition" attribute. That's what I normally use. Personally I think that Rolt-Red should be deleted but I haven't checked to see whether it's possible to locate all uses of a template. Chris55 (talk) 10:02, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Here's a cut-and-paste taken directly from my database, without modification:

{{cite book |last1=Rolt |first1=L.T.C. |authorlink1=L. T. C. Rolt |last2=Kichenside |first2=Geoffrey |title=Red for Danger |edition=4th |year=1982 |origyear=1955 |publisher=[[David & Charles]] |location=Newton Abbot |isbn=0 7153 8362 0 |page= |pages= |chapter= |quote= |ref=harv }}

which displays as:

Rolt, L.T.C.; Kichenside, Geoffrey (1982) [1955]. Red for Danger (4th ed.). Newton Abbot: David & Charles. ISBN 0 7153 8362 0. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

As you can see, there are places for me to enter the page(s), chapter and short quote. As this example has them as blanks, they don't show in the final output.

To show where a template is used: go to the template's page, click "What links here" - this is in the left hand column, but might be hidden behind "Toolbox". The ones you're mainly interested in will be those showing "(transclusion)", so click "Hide links" - this produces a list like this. --Redrose64 (talk) 16:30, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

I checked two different copies at my local model railway club last night. The battered one states "Revised and Enlarged Edition 1966 / First published 1955 by John Lane The Bodley Head Ltd. / This edition published 1960 by Pan Books Ltd ... 2nd printing (revised & reset) 1966 / 3rd printing 1967 © L.T.C. Rolt 1960, 1966"; the nice copy states "First published 1955 by John Lane The Bodley Head Ltd. / Reissued in 1960 by Pan Books Ltd / This edition published in 1998 by Sutton Books Ltd / © L.T.C. Rolt 1955, 1960, 1966". These I would place in a {{cite book}} as:

{{cite book |last=Rolt |first=L.T.C. |authorlink=L. T. C. Rolt |title=Red for Danger |edition=2nd |year=1967 |origyear=1955 |publisher=Pan Books |location=London |id=M168 }}

{{cite book |last=Rolt |first=L.T.C. |authorlink=L. T. C. Rolt |title=Red for Danger |edition=2nd |year=1998 |origyear=1955 |publisher=Sutton Publishing |location=Stroud |isbn=0 7509 2047 5 }}

which display as:

Rolt, L.T.C. (1967) [1955]. Red for Danger (2nd ed.). London: Pan Books. M168.

Rolt, L.T.C. (1998) [1955]. Red for Danger (2nd ed.). Stroud: Sutton Publishing. ISBN 0 7509 2047 5.

Interestingly, the text content and pagination is pretty much identical; the text is somewhat enlarged. It would seem that chapters 1-10 are fairly constant; it's what happens after that that veries between editions. However, in the 2nd edition, chapter 10 runs from page 229 to 254; but in the 4th ed, it's 229-252. Two pages worth of text have presumably been moved to a later chapter. --Redrose64 (talk) 14:48, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Peer review: LBSCR

There's a bit more to requesting a peer review than popping |pr=yes into the talk page banner. This is merely step 1; see Wikipedia:WikiProject Trains/Peer review#Requesting a review for the remainder. --Redrose64 (talk) 20:39, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

I tried to follow the instructions given on Wikipedia:WikiProject Trains/Peer review, but stages 2, 3, and 4 do not appear to work. This is possibly because there has been an earlier assessment outside the Trains Project in 2006? Can you help please? Many thanks Das48 (talk) 19:03, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

OK, well I see that you've done step 5 (which I had to fix, BTW).

If you go to Talk:London, Brighton and South Coast Railway you'll see a stack of banners. Locate the one titled

WikiProject Trains / in UK (Rated B-Class, Mid-importance)

and click the "[show]" link at the right of that. The banner will expand. In there you should see a row

More information:

again, click the "[show]" link at the right of that. This should produce a row like this, containing a redlink:

This article is currently undergoing a peer review.

Click that redlink to create the page. At the top of the new page, add a level 3 heading, wikilinked to your article:

=== [[London, Brighton and South Coast Railway]] ===

Below that, add your reason(s) for nominating the article, sign it in the usual way and save. Make sure that this page goes on your watchlist.

Go to Wikipedia:WikiProject Trains/Peer review#Requests on WikiProject Trains, and you should find that "London, Brighton and South Coast Railway" appears as a bluelinked sub-heading, immediately followed by your review request. Then wait for the fun to start. --Redrose64 (talk) 20:15, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Brill Tramway

If you get the chance, can you have a look over my rewritten Brill Tramway for any obvious howlers? I've spent so much time with it that there may be glaringly obvious problems that are passing me by. The one significant removal I've made has been to remove the route diagram template; I think that in this case, the inkscape diagrams are more useful as they show the curves-and-branches more clearly than an RDT would.

Even though it makes the article longer, I've kept the de facto "Infrastructure" appendix at the end. I think it makes more sense using this arrangement; that way, the technical details don't swamp the article text itself. I'm reluctant to move it off to a subpage; any subpage would need an explanatory potted-history of the line to provide at least minimal context, and thus actually add to the overall length. (Anyone interested in one is likely to be interested in the other, so will end up reading the same material twice.) The section only adds 800 words to an article that's 10200 words without it, so it's not having a significant impact on length. – iridescent 22:52, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Cuckoo Line

Would you cast your eyes over the Cuckoo Line article. It's had some recent attention from an IP whose edits could be described as unproductive at best. I've done a rollback, and since tweaked some header levels. Mjroots (talk) 17:04, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I suspect a well-intentioned campaigner for reopening, with poss COI. --Redrose64 (talk) 17:26, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

He complained "Please do not delete information that is obviously correct thanks" so I've given him a {{subst:uw-unsourced1}} --Redrose64 (talk) 18:02, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I've also posted on the IPs talk page. Suggested he propose additions on the talk page with links to the source. I'm sure we can improve the article between us. Mjroots (talk) 19:20, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

It seems I've made a balls-up. The IP was reverting the addition of non-relevant material and my reversion re-added it. I've apologised to the IP and struck your warning as it was clearly incorrect. Mjroots (talk) 21:31, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

GWR 5600 Class weights

Hi. The dimensions section is rather confusing now, with two references for five different weights. Could you take a look please? I've dropped the (edited) discussion I had originally prepared for you on the article talk page (see Talk:GWR 5600 Class#Weight?).

Cheers -- EdJogg (talk) 09:56, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Hampshire stations

I've created {{Closed stations Hampshire}}. I'm not sure whether I have all the pre-1974 Hampshire stations which are now in Dorset, possibly it should also include Bournemouth West but not sure. Lamberhurst (talk) 22:01, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes to Bournemouth West; also missing are the following in Category:Disused railway stations in Hampshire: Breamore; Fordingbridge; Woodcroft Halt. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:07, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Please note that per WP:FOOTERS, the navbox template should be before the categories. I've not gone around moving them, except in a few cases where I was editing for the primary purpose of adding a category. --Redrose64 (talk) 12:29, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Noted with thanks, I'll go back and check them. Lamberhurst (talk) 13:09, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes the junctions at Branksome (or part of the triangle) were in Dorset but trains going down to West crossed the border back into Hampshire. Britmax (talk) 19:20, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

WP Trains in the Signpost

"WikiProject Report" would like to focus on WikiProject Trains for a Signpost article to be published this month. This is an excellent opportunity to draw attention to your efforts and attract new members to the project. Would you be willing to participate in an interview? If so, here are the questions for the interview. Just add your response below each question and feel free to skip any questions that you don't feel comfortable answering. Also, if you know anyone else who would like to participate in the interview, please share this with them. Have a great day. Mjroots (talk) 12:06, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, spotted it: initially on WT:RAIL at 18:54 yesterday, then on several user talk pages (Mjroots, EdJogg, DavidCane, Slambo). Thanks. --Redrose64 (talk) 12:20, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

SD40-2 Merge

Can you take a look at my merge of the articles, EMD SD40-2(main article), EMD SD40-2W, EMD SD40-2S. The merged article is in here. Thanks (Copied from the Locomotive task force)--intelati^(Call) 17:27, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Not really my area. Have informed WP:TWP. --Redrose64 (talk) 17:41, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, kind of new in editing Locomotives.--intelati^(Call) 17:43, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Daniel Gooch standard gauge locomotives

After our previous correspondence re GWR locomotives, I have drafted a new article with the above title, as a survey of a number of classes which may or may not in time merit individual articles.

I would be glad for your feedback on may work, and on the remarks I have added to the article's discussion page.

Best wishes, 8474tim (talk) 17:03, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

PS

I found the info I needed about Redirects, so ignore my request about that. 8474tim (talk) 19:38, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Second opinion

Can I ask your thoughts on the question raised by Nergaal at Wikipedia:Featured topic candidates/Brill Tramway/archive1 – specifically, whether the RDT ought to be included on all the articles. My instinct is no – the articles already have to include the Metropolitan Line navbox and the previous/next templates, so including the RDT as well will mean the same information repeated three times, with two of the templates already very large – but given that you started most of these, your opinion obviously counts for a lot. Since any "every individual station article needs a full RDT for the entire line" precedent set here has the potential to affect literally thousands of articles, it's important IMO to get this right; the Brill Tramway was short enough that this would just about be manageable, but the idea of having to work bandwidth-munchers like {{Isle of Wight Railway}} or {{District Line}} into every article isn't one I relish. – iridescent 23:37, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

 Done --Redrose64 (talk) 19:38, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Your opinion is requested

You are invited to join the discussion at Template talk:WPBiography#Redirect-Class. Funandtrvl (talk) 23:26, 30 September 2010 (UTC) (Using {{Please see}})

Invitation to join WikiProject Bacon !

Oh won't you please consider joining WP:WikiProject Bacon? :)

• Wikipedia:WikiProject Bacon has been created, and you are cordially invited to join, and list yourself as a participant at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Bacon#Participants!
• You may also feel free to add the userbox - {{User Bacon}} - to your userpage, to indicate your participation in the WikiProject.
• The Wikipedia:Bacon WikiCup is also ongoing, more info about that at User:SuperHamster/Bacon Challenge 2011, and User:SuperHamster/Bacon WikiCup 2011.

Thank you for your time, -- Cirt (talk) 08:41, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but must decline - now being in sort-of full-time employment (if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys) means that I don't have as much time to spare. However, don't worry: during my last shift, my lunchtime sandwich was Bacon, Sausage and Mushrooms. Mmmm! --Redrose64 (talk) 08:45, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

No worries, -- Cirt (talk) 08:49, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Great Western Railway

Hello again, Should not the many references to MacDermot 1927 and MacDermot 1931 be "harvardified" so that they link back to the first mention in the footnotes? I remember a previous exchange in which you tried to explain to me about this sort of thing, and I see that you have recently contributed to this article, so I thought you might be the person to ask. I didn't want to wade in to such a major article without checking. -- Alarics (talk) 12:48, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I've modified {{Infobox GWR}} so that the full MacDermot citations are Harvard-linkable. As for the article, it should be a simple case of altering refs like <ref>MacDermot (1927), chapter 1.</ref> to <ref>{{harvnb|MacDermot|1927|loc=chapter 1}}</ref>, like this. Page numbers would be better than simple chapters (vol. 1 chap. 1 has 28 pages); but we can add those another time. --Redrose64 (talk) 13:08, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Great, thanks. -- Alarics (talk) 14:28, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

 Done should be none left unlinked. --Redrose64 (talk) 14:35, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

SECR Diag. 960 PMV

Do you have any books on SECR Non-passenger coaching stock? Particularly the Diag. 960 PMVs. Infobox and pending article need expansion with dimensions see - Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/cavell van, which I hope will be promoted soon. Mjroots (talk) 12:43, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Gould 1992, see Wikipedia:Article Incubator/SE&CR Diagram 960 PMV

nb: why was that not moved to create Cavell Van? See WP:CUTPASTE. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:17, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I'd forgotten about that! The Cavell Van article was created via AfC by a new editor. I came across it when he added wikilinks to some articles I keep an eye on. On giving him a welcome and checking his contribs, I discovered the article at AfC and polished it up a bit. That article is solely about No. 132, not the Diag.960 vans in general. I think we can justify an article on an individual PMV here due to its connections with three Wikinotable people. Mjroots (talk) 08:12, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Merger proposal Wookey railway station & Wookey Station

Hope you had a good holiday. A few weeks ago you proposed the merger of Wookey railway station and Wookey Station. I have supported this on the talk page, but added a question about the title & infobox. When you are back could you respond so that we can get this one sorted & remove it from Sopmerset cleanup listing?— Rod ^talk 13:08, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Inset maps

See Template talk:Location map#Inset Maps. Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks! Plastikspork _―Œ^(talk) 05:35, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Have watched the page. I unwatched it around October when real-life got busy. Not sure what I can contribute at this stage; I did once ask at WP:VPT if there was a parser function (or similar) that would return the dimensions of an image, but didn't get a usable answer. --Redrose64 (talk) 10:27, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Old OS maps

Hi, wonder if you know this one? On some railway station articles there are links to a website showing old OS maps dating from the 1930s/40s which are scrollable. You can add postcodes to the maps. Typically, when I need to find the website I can't, nor can I find an article which has such a link despite knowing it exists somewhere. Can you help, as I am hoping to find an old map showing Penshurst Airfield with a runway marked. Mjroots (talk) 10:25, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

There are two sorts that I know of.

First, those on the GeoHack page - click on either the lat/long or the infobox "Grid reference" entry, then under "Great Britain" there is a row "Old OS maps", click on "Map". This one doesn't have the postcodes thing that you mention, but it does have links to other old maps, of which the most useful are under "View at old-maps.co.uk(~1900)"; centre the main map on your feature of interest before clicking this. There are often several maps dating from anywhere between 1850 and 1960 here, depending upon what they've got access to. They are large scale, including 1:2500; 1:10,000; 1:10560 (6 inches to 1 mile); 1:25,000.

Second, most articles on old stations that I create (or expand from a single-paragraph stub) have a link in the ELs section like the one on Darcy Lever railway station; this is the one with the little postcode markers. I also mention this site on my user page in the checklist under Railway Stations. A peculiarity of this site is that it centres the map on the right-hand edge of the 1km square, so that the feature of interest is shown left of centre.

Constructing a link for this is a little involved, and you do need to know the OS grid ref of the feature, or its site, to 1 km accuracy (or better, but there's no point being overprecise). The basic format is

[http://www.npemap.org.uk/tiles/map.html#xxx,yyy,1 zzz on navigable qqqq O.S. map]

where xxx is the eastings to 1 km accuracy; yyy is the northings (also to 1 km); zzz is the name of the feature; and qqqq is the year of the map. Straight away, we can replace the "zzz" to give

[http://www.npemap.org.uk/tiles/map.html#xxx,yyy,1 Penshurst Airfield on navigable qqqq O.S. map]

Next, xxx and yyy. I note that Penshurst Airfield is at TQ525468, which since it has six digits, is to 100 m accuracy. We break that into three components - the grid square letters (TQ), and two equal-size groups for the eastings (525) and northings (468) respectively. Of the latter two, these could have from two to six digits each, for varying degrees of accuracy from 1 km to 10 mm. However many there are, we only need the first two digits of each set, so we now have eastings 52 and northings 46. We now need to adjust those so that they also denote grid square TQ. Refer to this diagram; locate TQ and count along and up from the bottom left corner - it's 5 along, 1 up.

There's another way of getting these figures if you have the relevant OS map in paper form. On my old 1:63360 (One inch Sixth Edition) sheet 171 (London S.E.) and also on my current 1:50 000 (Landranger) sheet 188 (Maidstone and The Weald of Kent), in the bottom left corner, the grid line numbers have extra (small) digits - one digit before and three zeroes after. It's the first small digit that is of interest for both eastings (5) and northings (1).

These should be placed in front of the eastings and northings which we already have - this gives eastings 552 and northings 146, so we can now insert those in place of the "xxx" and "yyy" to give

[http://www.npemap.org.uk/tiles/map.html#552,146,1 Penshurst Airfield on navigable qqqq O.S. map]

which is now clickable:

• Penshurst Airfield on navigable qqqq O.S. map

Observe the box upper right, headed "Sheets" and with the sheet number 171 shown four times. Each is followed by the year 1940, which is our value for "qqqq":

[http://www.npemap.org.uk/tiles/map.html#552,146,1 Penshurst Airfield on navigable 1940 O.S. map]

• Penshurst Airfield on navigable 1940 O.S. map

Since the airfield is not actually marked, I would modify the description to read

• Position of Penshurst Airfield on navigable 1940 O.S. map

The reason that the airfield is not marked is almost certainly because it's a military facility. I think however that your grid ref is a little off - there are too many woods, roads and civilian buildings, and that the likely position is that blankish space between Leigh Park Farm and Price's Farm, which would be TQ5347, or

[http://www.npemap.org.uk/tiles/map.html#553,147,1 Position of Penshurst Airfield on navigable 1940 O.S. map]

• Position of Penshurst Airfield on navigable 1940 O.S. map

--Redrose64 (talk) 13:07, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

BTW I don't know why the grid ref is given as "#553,147,1" - that's the way I've always seen it elsewhere. Leaving off the ",1" seems to make no difference, but it doesn't work if you try other numbers. --Redrose64 (talk) 13:11, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

It was the npemap.org website which I meant. Position of airfield is correct. Taken from the coordinates published in Flight, 2 February 1928, and converted to Grid Ref using the toolserver link, but rounded up to 100m accuracy instead of 1m accuracy. The actual coords of TQ 525 468 are 52° 12' 1.81" N, 0° 10' 55.57" E. I think the OS Coord as given is near enough. You mention earlier maps and larger scales, perhaps a 1920s or 1930s 6" map may have some info? Mjroots (talk) 16:45, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't personally have any older than the OS One-Inch 6th Edn (rev 1931, pub 1940), which doesn't show any runway, poss because of the military aspect. To find those larger scale maps, see the paragraph above beginning "First, those on the GeoHack page" alternatively, go here.

Once you've got to the old-maps page, you should see that upper right there is a scrolly list with slidy tab, the list has small maps also green and orange buttons. Slide it down and you should find one titled "1937 Pre-WWII 1:2500 - KENT" also "1937-1938 Pre-WWII 1:10,560 - KENT". Pick one and click the green "Enlarge Map" button. It takes a while to come through; once it's arrived, click the orange "Enhanced Zoom" button so that you can zoom in/out and recentre. --Redrose64 (talk) 17:10, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I've had a look, and no runways marked. Probably because it was grass, and not a tarmac/concrete surface. Thanks for your help. Mjroots (talk) 17:32, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Steam technology

see Russian_locomotive_class_Ye#Design_2 "design" section

I've got the impression you known something about steam technology (I definately don't) - I was wondering if anything here makes or does not make sense " Because of the possibility of the motion locking-up, Zyablova valves were replaced with valves of the Celler type. These valves allowed saturated steam directly into the cylinders while preventing combustion gases from the firebox to enter."

It sounded odd to me (seems to say combustion gases will get mixed with the steam?) so I marked it with dubious/clarify - I have no idea if this makes sense or what Celler or Zyablova valves are or do... If you can help please mention it on Talk:Russian locomotive class Ye (the editor is translating from russian - the rest of it seems generally pretty good - so it might be my ignorance). Thanks.Sf5xeplus (talk) 20:13, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

I have never heard of these two types of valves. Saturated steam is steam direct from the boiler, and therefore hasn't passed through the superheater. In most types of steam loco, if steam is shut off and the engine put into reverse whilst still moving forwards, the pistons could certainly suck gases from the smokebox into the cylinders. The gases themselves wouldn't matter much but they would carry a proportion of ash which would cause wear to the pistons, cylinders, valves and valve chests. This can also happen when an engine fitted with piston valves (not slide valves) is coasting in mid-gear, and for this reason drivers were usually instructed to keep the regulator slightly open, only shutting it completely when the train had stopped. It sounds as if the valves in question were a means of passing steam to the cylinders in these circumstances but still allow the driver to close the regulator. --Redrose64 (talk) 20:52, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps a Snifting valve? Biscuittin (talk) 22:36, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Possibly. In

• Semmens, P.W.B.; Goldfinch, A.J. (2003) [2000]. How Steam Locomotives Really Work. Oxford: Oxford University Press. p. 84. ISBN 0 19 860782 2.

we find that "a 'snifting' or anti-vacuum valve has to be fitted somewhere between the saturated steam header and the cylinders, to enable air to be drawn through the elements and the cylinders when the engine is coasting, and to remove the risk of char being drawn into the blastpipe." --Redrose64 (talk) 22:46, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Help on edit reverts

Hi again...wondered if you can help? I haven't really a clue how to stop people doing edit reverts, i've been accused of it in the past mind, but anyway i refer to the information on Scouser, someone keeps reversing a paragraph relating to the Wirral. I have edited it but the point is Wirral is both different and similar to Scouse and someone keeps removing this; can you help me with it? thanks Babydoll9799 (talk) 11:10, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

You can't stop somebody reverting edits without actually blocking them. You can, however, apply the three-revert rule, but before even threatening that, it's best to discuss it with them.

(At this point, I would normally advise "The best place would be on the article's talk page, and once you've started a thread there, put a short note on the other user's own talk page directing them to the discussion.", but I see that you've done both those things.)

WP:3RR does not apply here, because the user concerned has not recently made more than two edits (revert or otherwise) to the same article within any given 24-hour period. I may be wrong, but I think that this users edits are mainly removal of unsourced content, which is not exactly prohibited; indeed the removal might be considered to be a valid application of WP:NPOV. Although the user has normally left no edit summary, in one edit he does give a fair comment, so it might be best for you to obtain sources which support the passage in question, per WP:V.

Once you have done this, and this user persists, it counts as removal of sourced content, which is a different matter. If this happens, you may consider the use of one or another of the following: {{subst:uw-delete1}} {{subst:uw-disruptive1}} {{subst:uw-vandalism1}} (the "1" on the template names can be replaced by 2, 3 or 4 for progressively stronger warnings). To be fair, this user would have been within his rights if he had given you a {{subst:uw-unsourced1}} - see WP:BURDEN. --Redrose64 (talk) 16:45, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Invitation to take part in a pilot study

I am a Wikipedian, who is studying the phenomenon on Wikipedia. I need your help to conduct my research on about understanding "Motivation of Wikipedia contributors." I would like to invite you to a short survey. Please give me your valuable time, which estimates only 5 minutes. cooldenny (talk) 19:59, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Layton railway station

Here's one I need your help on. An existing station with an hourly service seven days a week, about which seemingly nothing is known of its early history. No information about its construction, date of opening, when its name changed from Bispham to Layton, etc. All I could find online is that it definitely existed by 1912 [4], a bridge was built over a level crossing there in 1930 [5] and that the name change occurred after 1950 [6]. With the line due to be electrified soon, it would be nice to have something more to say about it. Could you look it up in Butt for me please? Alzarian16 (talk) 15:09, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, when I'm back off hols. Besides Butt, a good source should be John Marshall's books on the L&YR, but whether it'll be volume 1 or 2 I don't know. Definitely not vol. 3. Possibly try also "Britain's Joint Lines" by H.C. Casserley (chapter on Preston & Wyre Jt). --Redrose64 (talk) 15:14, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately I don't own either of those, but Google Books was able to help out a bit: its preview for Marshall volume 1 gives May 1857 as Bispham's opening date, which is a start. Alzarian16 (talk) 15:40, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Template:Liverpool and Bury Railway

Thanks for the edit summary re the above diagram. I adjusted it and changed it to BS5-2 but don't know the history of the area so any changes you make are more likely to be right than mine. What do you think of my changes to the central Liverpool area? Britmax (talk) 18:08, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

For most areas I would generally consult

• Conolly, W. Philip (1976). British Railways Pre-Grouping Atlas and Gazetteer (5th ed.). Shepperton: Ian Allan. ISBN 0 7110 0320 3. EX/0176. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)

which is currently available as a reprint (but of lower quality than the 1976 printings). If the area was one where two different companies met, I would also consult

• Railway Clearing House Atlas of London 1935. Hersham: Ian Allan. 2001 [1935]. ISBN 0 7110 2789 7. 0106/B2. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)

the pages of which are on commons, each being in three or more subcategories of commons:Category:Railways Junctions Diagram 1914. Of the 158 RCH diagrams, the Wigan area is shown on diagram 77 of 1907; the Upholland-Kirkby stretch is on the bottom portion of diagram 92 of 1908 and the Liverpool area is on diagram 42 of 1909. In each case the L&YR routes are in blue, LNWR in red.

A good set of books for the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway is John Marshall's trilogy:

• Marshall, John (1969). The Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway, volume 1. Newton Abbot: David & Charles. ISBN 0 7153 4352 1.
• Marshall, John (1970). The Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway, volume 2. Newton Abbot: David & Charles. ISBN 0 7153 4906 6. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |authormask= ignored (|author-mask= suggested) (help)
• Marshall, John (1972). The Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway, volume 3. Newton Abbot: David & Charles. ISBN 0 7153 5320 9. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |authormask= ignored (|author-mask= suggested) (help) - vol. 3 primarily concerns locomotives and rolling stock.

Regarding Liverpool: since the template primarily concerns a historic company, I don't think that too much prominence should be given to routes built after the general closure of significant portions of the line under discussion. Thus, a simple arrow and "to Moorfields, Central and Hunts Cross" should be adequate. I'd also have this as the curve off to the side, with Liverpool Exchange in the vertical line, to emphasise that Exch was the terminus of the L&BR route. --Redrose64 (talk) 18:49, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject UK Railways in the Signpost

WikiProject Report would like to focus on WikiProject UK Railways for a Signpost article. This is an excellent opportunity to draw attention to your efforts and attract new members to the project. Would you be willing to participate in an interview? If so, here are the questions for the interview. Just add your response below each question and feel free to skip any questions that you don't feel comfortable answering. Other editors will also have an opportunity to respond to the interview questions. If you know anyone else who would like to participate in the interview, please share this with them. Have a great day. -Mabeenot (talk) 16:31, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Icons

And after all that I got it wrong!. See The 1948 OS map. The junction immediately north of Darington is what I'm trying to reproduce. The lines marked in a solid black line are still open, the others marked -|-|-|- are now closed. I cant seem to find any combination of two icons that would allow an overlapped combination to produce the desired result. Looking at the map, it is more likely that the line went over the ECML than under it. So, it's eKRZu with branches at NE, SE and SW, the eastern branches being closed (as is the line over). Once this icon has been created, the East Coast Main Line diagram can be reduced in length by a line. Mjroots (talk) 06:31, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

It didn't go either over or under: it was a flat crossing where the Newcastle & Darlington Junction crossed the Stockton & Darlington on the level; the signal box there was named "S&D Crossing". For a period, there were curves on all four corners, so the shape you need is   (KRZ Arg) but with a pink horizontal bar. Try overlaying  (ABZlg) onto   (exKRZ4d). --Redrose64 (talk) 11:44, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Looking closely at the diagram, the NW link is there. Diagram redrawn to reflect this info. Mjroots (talk) 12:05, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Re: Chiltern Railways map

Previous discussion at commons:User talk:Nilfanion#Rail operator route maps: Chiltern Railways

OK, I'm looking at the data to make the relevant updates to the Chiltern map. Does the First Great Western map need a similar update (to remove Bicester-Oxford)?

Btw technically, the map is not out of date, as it shows the state of affairs in 2010 not "current". Its usage in Chiltern Railways is outdated of course. :) --Nilfanion (talk) 22:33, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Ah, yes, didn't realise there was an FGW map. Yes, Bicester-Oxford should be removed from that. --Redrose64 (talk) 07:41, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

I've added the Bicester-Oxford segment to the Chltern map ([7]). I'll have a look at the other bits later, and I might even get the remained of the TOC maps up too!--Nilfanion (talk) 00:07, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Template:National Rail colour

Would you happen to know how {{National Rail colour}} could be amended to make Stansted Express a branch of NXEA, whilst retaining #305E7F as the default colour for the other lines? I'm trying to implement your favourite template at Liverpool Street. Lamberhurst (talk) 16:15, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Mmm, the one I dislike is {{s-line}}, because to add just one TOC you've got to create a whole slew of sub-templates and it's hopelessly underdocumented; assuming you're following the same plan that you've been using for the last few days, you'll be using {{s-rail-national}} where there is only one set of sub-templates, but extra entries are added as required.

Anyway,  Done there you go. --Redrose64 (talk) 16:41, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Lamberhurst (talk) 20:29, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Los Angeles City Council

Hello, and good day! One more request for the tables on Los Angeles City Council — might it be possible to bump up each of the texts to the tops of the columns. It would be quite helpful if the reader could see the years that the various council members first began their terms. As it stands now, the individual names are centered in their span of years — not too helpful, particularly when one prints out the chart, as I have done. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 19:38, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

 Done, see here. --Redrose64 (talk) 20:17, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Referencing style

Hi, Will you please be so kind to help me. Was I right here?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:22, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't think so. The referencing style of Skanderbeg is not parenthetical, but short-note (see WP:CITESHORT). For an example of true parenthetical referencing, see Four color theorem#History. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:00, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. I was not watching your talkpage and only now noticed your reply. Thank you. I am glad that I was not right.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:36, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Now, after I red wp:citeshort I have another questions connected with the same article which uses a short-note referencing style:

1. Are the titles of the sections wrong?
2. Should we restructure and rename sections to follow the recommendations of the cite-note template? I.e:
   1. to merge notes with References into Notes
   2. to rename sources as References
   3. to move all non-cited works listed in existing version of Sources section to another section named "Further reading".

Please bear in mind that this article which we talk about is watched by more than hundred users and is often subject to frequent disputes. With your permission, I intend to use your opinion in the discussion on the Skanderbeg talk page. If you don't feel like answering my questions feel free to say so and I will completely understand it. Thanks in advance. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:55, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

There are no "right" and "wrong" section titles. Personally I use "Notes" for the one containing the short-notes, and "References" for the full citations. Occasionally I find a need for a note which isn't a short note, and you can find an example in NBR 224 and 420 Classes (which recently passed GA review with only one change). See the Notes section - there are 46 short notes, and one long one. To avoid the long one spoiling the layout, I put it in a separate list in the same section.

Some articles use three section titles, as for example U.S. Route 131 where Footnotes has the long notes which don't refer to sources; References has the notes which do refer to sources; and Works cited has the full citations. This is a featured article, which suggests to me that the chosen section titles are permissible. If you have a look at some others (they're in Category:Featured articles) you will see that there is plenty of scope for variation.

Separation of the full book citations into two groups sounds sensible. Those not referred to from short notes can be separated off into a "Further reading" section (it would go between "Sources" and "External links", per MOS:APPENDIX): I count 42 of these. Those referred to from short notes should definitely stay where they are, and there is nothing inherently wrong with retaining the section heading "Sources". There are reasons not to use this title (see WP:FNNR), but they relate primarily to articles concerning computing, which this isn't. --Redrose64 (talk) 15:06, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

A question about editing

Hi RedRose,

When you left me a message recently regarding my incorrect editing of decades in my Doctor Who edits, you mentioned that if I had any questions, I should feel free to ask you. So, I'm feeling free to ask you. :-) (Are emoticons considered OK on WP talk pages?)

I'm becoming a bit more bold in my editing, making changes that - I recently learned - are actually considered by Wikipedia as more than "minor edits" (though I don't think of them as such; to me, adding or deleting a word to make a sentence more clear or easier to read is minor. Rewriting most of several sentences is major), and I'd like to become more so. One thing I noticed in my DW reading so far is there is little consistency in the way universe-specific terms are notated; for instance, the chameleon circuit is written as all lower-case in some articles, only the first word capitalized in others (outside of strict grammar usage), and indicating a proper name in still others. The same can be said of how series episodes are notated within the Classic as well as the revived series as well, and reference to the Christmas specials in the revived series. In short (or at least short as I tend to be), there is no consistency in articles across the topic, and given the impression I have of the importance of DW within WP, I think there really should be an attempt to have a style specific to the articles, beyond the UK English spelling and European date style already in use.

Should I bring this idea up at the WikiProject, or is there some more appropriate place to broach the subject? I do realize there are style manuals for WP itself, and style manuals for general areas of interest, but I've yet to find one that is universe-specific to DW, and I really think there's a need for one. I'm thinking of this because my interest in DW has only recently grown to searching for more in-depth information on the series beyond what I've learned watching (and re-watching, and re-watching, wash, rinse, repeat), so I've started reading everything that's available on WP to try and answer all the questions I have. This impulse is in its infancy; thus far, I've read only a handful of articles on Classic DW and specifics such as Time Lords and Regeneration, so I figure since I'll be reading across the expanse of Doctor Who, I'm in a good position to make edits based on a universe-specific style manual. And given that quirk of my nature that leads me to proof everything I read automatically, I'd like to accomplish some good along the way, so that the next DW newbie who comes along and starts reading with an eye to answering questions then follows an intriguing link to a subject one hadn't considered before, universe-specific terms will be consistent and one won't wonder how something is seen within the Whoniverse (and copyeditors won't wonder why no one established a style manual, or at least consistent notation).

Any help or ideas you can give me for proceeding, up to and including just making an editorial decision and making some of the changes I've got in mind, accompanied by a topic on the talk page explaining why I made the edit I made and requesting feedback/discussion, will be much appreciated (and honestly, the more I read, both in Doctor Who and Wikipedia back-stage articles, the more I'm leaning toward the very bold course of making the changes and inviting discussion. I just don't want to upset any DW aficionados who put the "fanatic" in "fan").--Sherlockspock (talk) 02:31, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the q. Emoticons are absolutely fine on discussion pages, although I don't use them much myself. Whether or not an edit is "minor" is debatable, there is no hard-and-fast rule but the topic is covered in general terms at Help:Minor edit.

There is indeed a lack of consistency. A lot of this is because much material is added by relatively-new people who aren't too familiar with the various policies and guidelines. I don't expect that anybody knows them all; it's the sort of experience that only time will give you.

The main trap for the unwary is that of original research. There are those who will watch an episode or story and then go to the relevant Wikipedia article; they then type in all the trivia they've just noticed, right down to the variation in Sarah Jane's hair between location and studio shots. There is an editor called MarnetteD (talk · contribs) who is carefully excising the irrelevant, and I think that you could discuss with him on what's worthy of keeping.

I sometimes recommend that featured articles be used as examples of good style. Unfortunately only six DW-related articles have been rated FA-class; their talk pages are listed in Category:FA-Class Doctor Who articles. Of these, three concern New Series episodes; two are biographies (one being somebody who is much better known as a pop-star than as an actor who appeared in just one DW episode); and one is a general topic specific to DW.

General matters of DW-specific style should be covered at Wikipedia:WikiProject Doctor Who/Manual of style (shortcut WP:WHO/MOS), which is an extension to some more general MoS documents, these are listed at the top of that page. If the WHO/MOS guidelines are unclear, you could ask at its talk page Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Doctor Who/Manual of style, although not many people watch that page: to gain wider attention, it's probably best to ask at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Doctor Who (shortcut WT:WHO).

The scope of WP:WHO covers a large number of articles. There is one article for each Doctor, each companion, each recurring adversary, most of the actors; each season, each Classic Series story, each New Series episode; each concept or piece of equipment, etc. etc. Nearly 4000 pages in all, of which nearly 1800 are articles. It's far too many for one person to hope to keep in any sort of consistent style, so interested parties do need to collaborate with one another. --Redrose64 (talk) 12:42, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for answering my questions, RedRose; I begin to understand the scope of the project I might be setting myself up for, but it's something I feel strongly enough about that I want to try. I was mainly looking for the best location to begin a discussion with an eye to reach a consensus on some basic style items. I looked through the DW MoS a couple of times, looking for the style decided for the Chameleon Circuit and the Christmas Specials and such, and didn't find anything. I did find the decisions regarding differences in denoting Classic serials and eps and the New series, so that was very helpful; what I'm looking to do - and again, I realize that this might be an impossible task to keep up with, but I am determined to try - takes copyediting consistency a step further, and now I know where to take this discussion.

Thanks for your help, RedRose. --Sherlockspock (talk) 11:20, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

PS: Thanks for letting me know emoticons are OK on talkpages. I tend to use them a fair amount when writing to people I don't know well or who don't know me well; I've been told my writing can have quite the harsh, cold tone, so I feel adding the lightness helps alleviate that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sherlockspock (talk • contribs) 11:39, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

BSicon kABZr+1x2.svg image

Hi there, are there any plans to make this image with the disused line and the still in use line the opposite way round? cheers EddersGTI (talk) 14:26, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Let's see - reverse of  (kABZr+xr) - do you mean red at the bottom, pink at the top; or two lines on the left, one on the right? --Redrose64 (talk) 14:29, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Red at bottom and pink on top please EddersGTI (talk) 14:31, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

 Done,  (kABZxr+r). --Redrose64 (talk) 15:18, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Excelent, thank you :) EddersGTI (talk) 15:48, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to be a pain, any chance of a kABZxl+l version please ? EddersGTI (talk) 14:51, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

 Done, with its mirror image:  (kABZl+xl) and  (kABZxl+l). --Redrose64 (talk) 17:06, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject banner

Do you have any idea how to make the task force importance show up on the banner? An example is here: Talk:Suicidal person. The importance itself works, the page is properly categorized, but it's not showing up on the banner, like it does in, for example, here: Talk:Occult, in the WikiProject Religions banner the task force line says in the end: "(marked as Mid-importance)."

Link to the template: Template:WikiProject Death. — Jeraphine Gryphon ^(talk) 18:16, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Trying to find some WikiProject banners that do do this. So far, I've come up with {{WikiProject Trains}}, which doesn't use the "regular" taskforce parameters, but instead uses the "hook" method - the taskforce parameters are instead passed into {{WPBannerMeta/hooks/taskforces}}, which might display something like this:

--Redrose64 (talk) 21:48, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

If a change requires re-tagging of pages then I'll have to get a bot to do it... I'm like halfway through with tagging, won't do it again. — Jeraphine Gryphon ^(talk) 21:58, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

No, the hook, when used, is placed inside the project banner template, not on talk pages. If any amendments are needed, it'll be in that one place; but I have now found {{WikiProject Beer}}, which doesn't use hooks; and I think that it does what you require. Have a look at Talk:Jericho Tavern, specifically the WikiProject Beer banner - I believe that the text "This article is supported by the Pubs taskforce (marked as Low-importance)" is something like what you're after? If so, I'll see how {{WikiProject Beer}} differs from {{WikiProject Death}}. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:04, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

yes plz. — Jeraphine Gryphon ^(talk) 22:13, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

 fixed, I've removed the |TF_1_TEXT= parameter - {{WikiProject Beer}} doesn't set this, and in its absence the banner builds its own line using the |TF_1_LINK= and |TF_1_NAME= - which includes the importance. --Redrose64 (talk) 23:31, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

TY!! — Jeraphine Gryphon ^(talk) 06:17, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Discussion at Template talk:S-line#Editprotected circular parameters

You are invited to join the discussion at Template talk:S-line#Editprotected circular parameters. Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 22:50, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Statistics table for Wikipedia:WikiProject St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador

Redrose64, Thank you very much for the Future class. I had no idea it was so easy. Thanks for listing them all too! You went above and beyond. I thanked you at the template disscussion.

I'm looking for help with User:WP 1.0 bot/Tables/Project/St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador. Is there some switch somewhere that needs to be fliped? I've just set the categories for this new project 19 February. When I update the project at the toolserver (it's not actually listed) by placing the name in the box it looks ok, but nothing gets written to the table. I thought that the bot would do it when it got to it. Help. Argolin (talk) 15:37, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

As described near the bottom of User:WP 1.0 bot/Web/Guide, I went to this page, selected the project from the pull-down list, and hit "Go". Here's the run details:

Extended content

Running /home/project/e/n/w/enwp10/bin/update-project-web.pl Project: «St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador» Called db_connect .. Connect to database, try 1 of 100 .. Successful Get: Category:Wikipedia 1.0 assessments Listed 4128 pages in 0 seconds Mode: 'all' Will update 1 projects Reconnecting to database Called db_connect .. Connect to database, try 1 of 100 .. Successful -- Download ratings data for 'St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador' A Maxlag set to -1 A Set maximum retry count to: 20 A Set base URL to: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php A Set debug level to: 3 A Logging in A Making HTTP request (1) A Making HTTP request (2) R Login successful A Fetching information about logged in user 'WP 1.0 bot' A Making HTTP request (3) R Logged in user has bot rights A Fetching information mediawiki site A Making HTTP request (4) A Fetching content of Category:St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles_by_quality A Making HTTP request (5) See '{{Portal box|St. John's}} [[File:City of St. John's.jpg|60px|left]] This [[Wikipedia:Categorization|category]] contains [[WP:SUBCAT|subcategories]] used by this project. {{Further|[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Canada/Assessment]]|[[Template:WikiProject Canada]]}} {{ReleaseVersionParameters|hidden=yes|homepage=Wikipedia:WikiProject St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador}} {{AbQ|topic=St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador|project=St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador}} {{WP1|St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador}} [[Category:St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador articles| Quality]] [[Category:Wikipedia 1.0 assessments]]' -- WikiProject information from {{ReleaseVersionParameters}} Extra assessments: Get stored quality ratings for St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador Getting quality ratings for St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador from database Fetched: 0 for type 'quality' project 'St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador' --- Get project categories for St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador by quality Get: Category:St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles_by_quality Listed 18 pages in 0 seconds St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador articles SCAN 'List-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) List-Class 80 List-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'GA-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) GA-Class 400 GA-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'B-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) B-Class 300 B-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'A-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) A-Class 425 A-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'Category-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) Category-Class 50 Category-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'C-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) C-Class 225 C-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'Start-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) Start-Class 150 Start-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'Stub-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) Stub-Class 100 Stub-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'Project-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) Project-Class 44 Project-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'Portal-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) Portal-Class 45 Portal-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'Unassessed_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) Unassessed-Class 0 Unassessed_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'FA-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) FA-Class 500 FA-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'FL-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) FL-Class 480 FL-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'Book-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) Book-Class 55 Book-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'File-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) File-Class 46 File-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'Redirect-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) Redirect-Class 43 Redirect-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'Template-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) Template-Class 40 Template-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'NA-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) NA-Class 25 NA-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Fetching list for quality Portal-Class Get: Portal-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality Book-Class Get: Book-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality List-Class Get: List-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality FA-Class Get: FA-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality B-Class Get: B-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality Unassessed-Class Get: Unassessed_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality GA-Class Get: GA-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality NA-Class Get: NA-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality Start-Class Get: Start-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality Category-Class Get: Category-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality Project-Class Get: Project-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality Template-Class Get: Template-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality A-Class Get: A-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality File-Class Get: File-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality Redirect-Class Get: Redirect-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality Stub-Class Get: Stub-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality FL-Class Get: FL-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality C-Class Get: C-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Total old arts: 0 Total new arts: 0 ==> download quality assessments 0 sec Get stored importance ratings for St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador Getting importance ratings for St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador from database Fetched: 0 for type 'importance' project 'St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador' --- Get project categories for St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador by importance Get: Category:St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles_by_importance Listed 5 pages in 0 seconds Cat Low-Class 100 Low-importance_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Cat Mid-Class 200 Mid-importance_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Cat High-Class 300 High-importance_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Cat Top-Class 400 Top-importance_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Cat Unknown-Class 0 Unknown-importance_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Fetching list for importance Mid-Class Get: Mid-importance_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for importance Top-Class Get: Top-importance_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for importance Unknown-Class Get: Unknown-importance_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for importance Low-Class Get: Low-importance_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for importance High-Class Get: High-importance_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Total old arts: 0 Total new arts: 0 ==> download importance assessments 0 sec Cleanup St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador Deleted articles: 0E0 Null quality rows: 0E0 Null importance rows: 0E0 Quality-assessed articles: 0 Importance-assessed articles: 0 SCORES 'St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador' Updating release version scores for 'St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador' Detected that project does not use importance ratings Result: 0E0 rows in 0 seconds Updating articles table for St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador Result: 0E0 rows in 0 seconds Commit changes to database Done. --- Finished downloading assessment data, now uploading table to wiki Called db_connect .. Connect to database, try 1 of 100 .. Successful Count: 1987 1 / 1987 St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador Trying to reconnect Reconnecting to database Called db_connect .. Connect to database, try 1 of 100 .. Successful Count is zero, skipping Called db_connect .. Connect to database, try 1 of 100 .. Successful A Maxlag set to -1 A Set maximum retry count to: 20 A Set base URL to: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php A Set debug level to: 3 A Logging in A Making HTTP request (1) A Making HTTP request (2) R Login successful A Fetching information about logged in user 'WP 1.0 bot' A Making HTTP request (3) R Logged in user has bot rights A Fetching information mediawiki site A Making HTTP request (4) A Fetching content of Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador articles by quality statistics A Making HTTP request (5) Transclusion page exists

As you can see, it's looking for various categories, such as Category:List-Class St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador articles, but not finding pages in any of them. This may be why it's not generating a table: there's nothing to put in it. --Redrose64 (talk) 16:05, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

There are 145 items in Category:St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador articles? Picking one at ranmom Talk:Ryan's Fancy, the talk page indeed indicates it is in this category. An answer in half-an-hour? You're spoiling me :) What now? Argolin (talk) 17:10, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I think that the problem is that these pages are not in the subcategories of Category:St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador articles by importance and Category:St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador articles by quality. If they were, the bot would spot them. It's something to do with the way that {{WikiProject Canada}} is set up. Compare the code for stjohns:

|tf 7={{{stjohns|}}}
 |TF_7_LINK            = Wikipedia:WikiProject Newfoundland and Labrador/St. John's
 |TF_7_NAME            = WikiProject Newfoundland and Labrador/St. John's
 |TF_7_IMAGE           = City of St. John's.jpg
 |TF_7_TEXT            = {{WikiProject Canada/TFtext|WikiProject Newfoundland and Labrador/St. John's}}
 |TF_7_PORTAL          = St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador
 |TF_7_MAIN_CAT        = St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador articles

with the code for music:

|tf 2={{{music|}}}
 |TF_2_LINK            = Wikipedia:WikiProject Canadian music
 |TF_2_NAME            = WikiProject Canadian music
 |TF_2_NESTED          = Music
 |TF_2_IMAGE           = Tower-wireless-can.png
 |TF_2_TEXT            = {{WikiProject Canada/TFtext|WikiProject Canadian music}}
 |TF_2_QUALITY         = yes
 |tf 2 importance={{{importance|}}}
 |TF_2_MAIN_CAT = WikiProject Canadian music articles
 |TF_2_ASSESSMENT_CAT  = Canadian music articles
 |TF_2_PORTAL          = Music of Canada

As you can see, music has four extra parameters - |TF_n_NESTED=, |TF_n_QUALITY=, |tf n importance= and |TF_n_ASSESSMENT_CAT=. I don't think that |TF_n_NESTED= is relevant here, but I'm pretty certain that if we set |TF_7_QUALITY=yes, |tf 7 importance={{{importance|}}} and |TF_7_ASSESSMENT_CAT=St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador articles then the subcats should start to populate. I'll put the lines in Template:WikiProject Canada/sandbox and see if that works. --Redrose64 (talk) 17:32, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, {{WikiProject Canada/sandbox|class=stub|importance=low|stjohns=yes}} seems to categorise correctly. I'll deploy it soon. Nearly dinner time here in England! --Redrose64 (talk) 17:44, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

WOW, two hours for a fix? Enjoy your dinner. You're restoring the good name (in my mind anyhow) of Wikipedia. Three weeks ago, I went to the template discussion page to ask about the needs-picture=yes for the music project. While there, I noticed there was a new city in the template not categorising anything on the talk page. After traking down the actual requestor, I told him I'd see to getting the statistics table corrected. He has been waiting since August 2011. Again, thank-you. Argolin (talk) 18:15, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, seems to be finished. There are 144 pages in Category:St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador articles, and the boxes top of Category:St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador articles by quality and Category:St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador articles by importance add up to 144 also. --Redrose64 (talk) 18:46, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Extended content

Running /home/project/e/n/w/enwp10/bin/update-project-web.pl Project: «St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador» Called db_connect .. Connect to database, try 1 of 100 .. Successful Get: Category:Wikipedia 1.0 assessments Listed 4128 pages in 0 seconds Mode: 'all' Will update 1 projects Reconnecting to database Called db_connect .. Connect to database, try 1 of 100 .. Successful -- Download ratings data for 'St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador' A Maxlag set to -1 A Set maximum retry count to: 20 A Set base URL to: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php A Set debug level to: 3 A Logging in A Making HTTP request (1) A Making HTTP request (2) R Login successful A Fetching information about logged in user 'WP 1.0 bot' A Making HTTP request (3) R Logged in user has bot rights A Fetching information mediawiki site A Making HTTP request (4) A Fetching content of Category:St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles_by_quality A Making HTTP request (5) See '{{Portal box|St. John's}} [[File:City of St. John's.jpg|60px|left]] This [[Wikipedia:Categorization|category]] contains [[WP:SUBCAT|subcategories]] used by this project. {{Further|[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Canada/Assessment]]|[[Template:WikiProject Canada]]}} {{ReleaseVersionParameters|hidden=yes|homepage=Wikipedia:WikiProject St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador}} {{AbQ|topic=St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador|project=St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador}} {{WP1|St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador}} [[Category:St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador articles| Quality]] [[Category:Wikipedia 1.0 assessments]]' -- WikiProject information from {{ReleaseVersionParameters}} Extra assessments: Get stored quality ratings for St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador Getting quality ratings for St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador from database Fetched: 0 for type 'quality' project 'St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador' --- Get project categories for St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador by quality Get: Category:St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles_by_quality Listed 19 pages in 0 seconds St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador articles SCAN 'List-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) List-Class 80 List-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'GA-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) GA-Class 400 GA-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'B-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) B-Class 300 B-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'A-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) A-Class 425 A-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'Category-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) Category-Class 50 Category-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'C-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) C-Class 225 C-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'Start-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) Start-Class 150 Start-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'Stub-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) Stub-Class 100 Stub-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'Project-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) Project-Class 44 Project-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'Portal-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) Portal-Class 45 Portal-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'Unassessed_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) Unassessed-Class 0 Unassessed_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'FA-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) FA-Class 500 FA-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'FL-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) FL-Class 480 FL-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'Book-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) Book-Class 55 Book-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'File-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) File-Class 46 File-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'Redirect-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) Redirect-Class 43 Redirect-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'Template-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) Template-Class 40 Template-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'NA-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) NA-Class 25 NA-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles SCAN 'Future-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles' Cat (2) Future-Class 60 Future-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Fetching list for quality Portal-Class Get: Portal-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 1 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality Book-Class Get: Book-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality List-Class Get: List-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 1 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality FA-Class Get: FA-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality Future-Class Get: Future-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality B-Class Get: B-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 4 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality Unassessed-Class Get: Unassessed_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 2 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality GA-Class Get: GA-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 3 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality NA-Class Get: NA-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality Start-Class Get: Start-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 64 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality Category-Class Get: Category-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 5 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality Project-Class Get: Project-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 2 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality Template-Class Get: Template-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality A-Class Get: A-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality File-Class Get: File-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality Redirect-Class Get: Redirect-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality Stub-Class Get: Stub-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 57 pages in 1 seconds Fetching list for quality FL-Class Get: FL-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for quality C-Class Get: C-Class_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 5 pages in 0 seconds Total old arts: 0 Total new arts: 144 ==> download quality assessments 2 sec Get stored importance ratings for St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador Getting importance ratings for St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador from database Fetched: 144 for type 'importance' project 'St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador' --- Get project categories for St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador by importance Get: Category:St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles_by_importance Listed 5 pages in 0 seconds Cat Low-Class 100 Low-importance_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Cat Mid-Class 200 Mid-importance_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Cat High-Class 300 High-importance_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Cat Top-Class 400 Top-importance_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Cat Unknown-Class 0 Unknown-importance_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Fetching list for importance Mid-Class Get: Mid-importance_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 11 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for importance Top-Class Get: Top-importance_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 0E0 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for importance Unknown-Class Get: Unknown-importance_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 4 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for importance Low-Class Get: Low-importance_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 119 pages in 0 seconds Fetching list for importance High-Class Get: High-importance_St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador_articles Listed 2 pages in 0 seconds Total old arts: 144 Total new arts: 136 ==> download importance assessments 1 sec Cleanup St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador Deleted articles: 0E0 Null quality rows: 0E0 Null importance rows: 8 Quality-assessed articles: 142 Importance-assessed articles: 132 SCORES 'St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador' Updating release version scores for 'St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador' Detected that project uses importance ratings Result: 136 rows in 0 seconds Updating articles table for St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador Result: 136 rows in 0 seconds Commit changes to database Done. --- Finished downloading assessment data, now uploading table to wiki Called db_connect .. Connect to database, try 1 of 100 .. Successful Count: 1987 1 / 1987 St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador Trying to reconnect Reconnecting to database Called db_connect .. Connect to database, try 1 of 100 .. Successful Count: 142 A Maxlag set to -1 A Set maximum retry count to: 20 A Set base URL to: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php A Set debug level to: 3 A Logging in A Making HTTP request (1) A Making HTTP request (2) R Login successful A Fetching information about logged in user 'WP 1.0 bot' A Making HTTP request (3) R Logged in user has bot rights A Fetching information mediawiki site A Making HTTP request (4) A Editing User:WP 1.0 bot/Tables/Project/St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador A Making HTTP request (5) A Making HTTP request (6) Called db_connect .. Connect to database, try 1 of 100 .. Successful A Maxlag set to -1 A Set maximum retry count to: 20 A Set base URL to: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php A Set debug level to: 3 A Logging in A Making HTTP request (1) A Making HTTP request (2) R Login successful A Fetching information about logged in user 'WP 1.0 bot' A Making HTTP request (3) R Logged in user has bot rights A Fetching information mediawiki site A Making HTTP request (4) A Fetching content of Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/St._John's,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador articles by quality statistics A Making HTTP request (5) Transclusion page exists

 Done Success - see User:WP 1.0 bot/Tables/Project/St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador. --Redrose64 (talk) 18:50, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I've worked it out. If you look at that table, there are no rows for FA-class, A-class, Template-class and about six others; and no column for Top-importance. This is almost certainly because those categories are empty. Therefore, when we tried it earlier, all the categories were empty, so all the rows and columns were absent - so no table. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:00, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I think your first explaination is correct. I added the stjohns=yes to Talk:Ryan's Fancy (a class=Start) here way back 6 February knowing that it was not causing any apparent errors for other editors and that I was hell bent, bound, determined to get the stats table working. I made sure that categories for classes Stub and Start existed before asking you for help. I can tell you that if there was an FA-class article and no category, the bot would place it into "other". There are projects like this out there. Personally, I don't like "other". Argolin (talk) 08:14, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Is now updating frequently, if not regularly. The bot runs daily, but the table is not updated if there are no changes since the previous update, hence the gaps in the date sequence. --Redrose64 (talk) 20:45, 4 March 2012 (UTC)