User talk:PBS/Archive 8

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Eritrean-Ethiopian War

Hey there PBS. In the edit notes you suggested that there was not more than one front, however, in your edit you said that the EIJ/EIS and the OLF were included. These would be two different fronts as one conducts actions in Oromia and the other in Gash-Barka...How do you respond? Would it not be multiple fronts? --Merhawie 17:06, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

It depends what one means by fronts. For example the commando raids on Norway are not usually seen as part of the Western Front, nor for that matter are the strategic bombing campaigns of World War II. Although the word has a metaphorical meaning, I do not think that that is an appropriate in an article about a war. Regards PBS 17:51, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

PBS...that is a very good point...do you have any recommendations though? Because as it stands now the title is simply incorrect. --Merhawie 18:34, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I used the sub-secton header "Fighting Spreads to Somalia" because it was the one used in the first reference. But after you edit, I decided that sub-section title Fighting in Somalia probably fitted the parent section (War) better. What is it that you think is incorrect about it? --PBS 22:42, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Well the section specifically talks about the involvement of the EIJ and the EIS and these groups do not (at least to my knowledge) operate in Somalia, the Oromia or anywhere but Eastern Sudan and Western Eritrea. Because of this I think the section title is inaccurate. --Merhawie 22:48, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Mr. PBS, why are you insisting on rejecting the Ethiopian chief of Staff name from appearing on the page? His name is Samora Mohammad Yunis, he is Tigrean elit and long time serving general. Give him respect he deserves and put his name on the page as Ethiopian chief of staff. Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Solomondagnew (talk • contribs) 03:49, August 21, 2007 (UTC).

World Statesman site

Please share your thoughts with me wheter this site - http://www.worldstatesmen.org - is a WP:RS. Thank you,--Velimir85 17:30, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Unspecified source for Image:Cross of Sacrifice.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:Cross of Sacrifice.jpg. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, then you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, then a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a restatement of that website's terms of use of its content, is usually sufficient information. However, if the copyright holder is different from the website's publisher, then their copyright should also be acknowledged.

As well as adding the source, please add a proper copyright licensing tag if the file doesn't have one already. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then the {{GFDL-self-no-disclaimers}} tag can be used to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media meets the criteria at Wikipedia:Fair use, use a tag such as {{non-free fair use in|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Wikipedia:Image copyright tags#Fair use. See Wikipedia:Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their source and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following this link. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If the image is copyrighted under a non-free license (per Wikipedia:Fair use) then the image will be deleted 48 hours after 09:16, 6 May 2007 (UTC). If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Strangerer (Talk) 09:16, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

• It says {{GFDL}}, but it doesn't state the source of the image. Who released it as GDFL? --Strangerer (Talk) 10:00, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
• I tagged it because it wasn't clear who had created the image or where it had come from. Someone else could have created it and released it under GDFL; then if you upload it and just use {{GDFL}} with no other information, it's not really clear who the author is. Apparently you are the creator? The page doesn't give any information about it. I'll go ahead and replace it with {{GFDL-self-no-disclaimers}} for you. --Strangerer (Talk) 10:17, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Huh?

Do you know what on earth has happened here?

• [1]

The summary says that the deletion was made by User:Conscious, but that Admin has not made a contribution since the 5th May. --Mais oui! 18:21, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

It did not shown up in my Watchlist. I only noticed it because I happened to click on the direct link, and got the "article does not exist" screen, as I would if it had been a redlink. --Mais oui! 18:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Portal: Genocide

No, i don't Ashkani. Thanks for the warm welcome too. I would like to further discuss the Portal: Genocide topic though. Amerihay 22:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

River Teme

You helped me last summer deal with views on the navigability of the River Teme, which are unsupported by any firm historical evidence, and seem ultimately to derive from one Andy Mabbett (possibly misspelt), who subsequently became a blocked user. The same sort of assertions have reappeared in the article. Could I ask you to watch the article and act as referee? My 2006 article remains unrefuted. The fact that various older works (and formner webpages) mention the alternative view should not make them right. Nevertheless, as the author of the latest major article, it is not necessarily easy for me to be objective. Peterkingiron 22:16, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Jvalant/Indian Rebellion

Greetings,

I'm considering whether to take Jvalant to the ArbCom on the Indian Rebellion page. You seem to have been dealing with the page for far longer than I have, so I was wondering you had any thoughts on the matter. --RaiderAspect 11:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Hopefully the 3RR report will result in an improvement in behaviour. And yes, it's odd really; many of Wikipedia's most ardent nationalists don't seem to live in the nation they defend to the death. --RaiderAspect 12:35, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Template talk:Unreferenced

Looks like you are getting ready to do a big archive move on Template talk:Unreferenced. If/when you do would you drop me note (in case I miss the move) I would like to do a review and write up on the contently reoccurring none verses one reference argument and provide links to the archived talks. Actually I will probably start on review in my sandbox this weekend as I just finished the section I was working on there. Jeepday (talk) 14:46, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Re: Peninsular War

Your shameless rules lawyering is extremely unwelcome and unappreciated. I know 3R very well and I rate it accordingly. So you can continue to invoke 3R with all due posturing and mock innocence, but a far graver case rests against those who force through foolish edits using bad etiquette and manipulation of Wikipedia guidelines. If you felt the slightest confidence in your justification for your edits, in the strength of your case when exposed to the scrutiny of honest discussion, or in your experience with the recent historiography of the Peninsular War, then you would present arguments instead of entrenching yourself behind 3R.

In brief: Have I any reason not to dismiss your would-be edit warring as the disruptive project of an awkward ingenue? Let's hear you justify yourself. Do you deny that a sizeable number of present-day English-language historians and scholarly publications (Esdaile, Gates, Britannica, Revolutionary Spain) employ the term? Is it not enough that Spanish War of Independence is used in the German, French, Italian, and Hungarian wikis (besides Castilian and other Spanish dialects)? Do you suppose you have any precedent for burying alternate names in footnotes? (go ahead, pick articles at random: Seven Years' War, Austro-Prussian War, War of the Grand Alliance, etc., you'll find a glaring rebuke in each) Of course, no one denies that "Peninsular War" is the most common English name; that's why the article sits where is does. But to try to pretend it's the only name is palpably narrow-minded and counterproductive. Albrecht 03:23, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

When you have time, please set out your terms for further discussion or resolution of the naming dispute. I am also prepared to address any remaining concerns you have with the second paragraph. You may reply on my talk page if you prefer. Albrecht 01:56, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm looking forward to resolving the naming issue. Do you want to refer the matter to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Napoleonic era task force, or are you prepared to reach a solution on the talk page? Let me know your thoughts. Albrecht 18:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, I'm almost amazed that you can speak of protecting the "flow" when the introduction begins like this:

“ The Peninsular War was a war in the Iberian Peninsula. An alliance of Spain, Portugal, and the United Kingdom battled the French Empire during the Napoleonic Wars. The... ”

I'd say choppiness is the main issue at present, which the addition of an extra name or two could hardly exacerbate. I have considered your suggestion of putting the names in a separate paragraph but I can't find a place that sits well; having the reader pause to read a paragraph exclusively on the names seems like an unforgivable interruption, especially in the introduction, where space is so precious. You may be right, though, about the removal of parenthetical translations (i.e. Spanish War of Independence (Guerre de la independencia espanola)); like you said, the interested reader can simply consult the non-English wiki of his choice.

For the moment, I would propose something like this (the precise phrasing can be subject to considerable revision):

“ The Peninsular War or Spanish War of Independence was a Napoleonic war in the Iberian Peninsula that involved an alliance of Spain, Portugal, and the United Kingdom against the French Empire. The... ”

I'm not particularly concerned about Guerre d'Espagne as it seems to be a fairly unassuming term applied to any conflict in Spain—and mainly the Spanish Civil War. I can find another place. The Portuguese name, meanwhile, can be used in "Consequences in Portugal," which should please everybody. But I remain convinced in my case for Spanish War of Independence. Again, you have my assurance that in no circumstance would I approve of additional names entering the introduction. Albrecht 21:59, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

That's an excellent point in principle, except Wikipedia does not operate this way: We name pages in line with the most common English name, but we consider contents based on global importance. Concerning wars specifically, I am not aware of any rule that a foreign name has to be anywhere near as common as the English one before we put it in bold; judging by the examples I showed you before, editors consistently have been very liberal. For example, "Second Italian War of Independence" (-wikipedia) occurs on Google only 547 times, "la invasión estadounidense de mexico" only twice, "Saskatchewan Rebellion" only 770, "Saltpeter War" 291/64,400 (proportion to main name), "Nationalist-Communist Civil War" 78/116,000, "Second Moroccan War" 59, "Rebellion of Great Peace" 2/110,000, "Charles VIII's Italian War" 6/68,000, "Fourth Arab-Israeli War" 1,860/365,000, "Third Italian Independence War" 135/36,000. In brief, you're holding this article to standards that clearly are not in force anywhere else. Albrecht 22:48, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

?

Who are you and what is your purpous? I do not in any way wish to sound rude, but you should at the very least have the good will of letting us know what your intentions are. Ancient Land of Bosoni

Bosnian Muslims

About "Bosnian Muslims", it's a lost cause. "Bosnian Muslims" is a perfectly legitimate mainstream alternative to "Bosniacs/Bosniaks"; one can find it in the encyclopedias Encarta, Britannica, Columbia... This issue is basically as follows: a distinct identity in Bosnia came about with the mass conversions of Serbs and Croats to Islam. These people were known since then until the 1990s as "Bosnian Muslims", when Bosnia and Herzegovina became independent. Since then, the term "Bosnian Muslims" has been suppressed and the neologism "Bosniacs/Bosniaks" (as distinct from Bosnians) came about and it has become politically correct to refer to them with the neologism now. Bosnian Muslim/Bosniac/Bosniak historians claim that Bosniacs/Bosniaks have always existed, and have rewritten history back to the middle ages to make room for their ethnic group and the medieval self-identifying Serb rulers of Bosnia are declared proud Bosniacs/Bosniaks by them. For what mainstream experts think, see what I wrote here. For the greatest propagandistic version of the history of Bosnia, see here and the heading of this talkpage. The suppression of the term "Bosnian Muslim" in favor of "Bosniacs/Bosniaks" is promoted on Wikipedia by Bosniac/Bosniak users themselves and users who support "human rights" and "political correctness", despite the fact that the neologism hasn't yet caught one in English (mostly because most people unrelated to Yugoslavia aren't familiar yet with the new name - they were referred to as (Bosnian) "Muslims" officially under communist Yugoslavia). As far as I can tell, there's no chance we're winning this argument - the majority rules in edit wars. Welcome to the nationalist swamps of Wikipedia where the The Law of the Jungle prevails :) --Ploutarchos 21:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Propaganda, probably from a Serb or a very uneducated English (who believes to know everything), anyway propaganda. Ancient Land of Bosoni

Dokdo/Takeshima/Liancourt Rocks

Endroit mentioned on AN/I that you stepped in about the last time the naming monster raised its head on this page (he said something about you suggesting a new poll six months after the previous one ended due to the extreme response that poll had). Almost a year later, people have finally got the spirit to raise the issue in discussion. So far everything has remained more or less civil, and no move wars have broken out (what luck). We're in the RFC stage now, maybe you would have some input or suggestion?

The main issue is whether or not we can stick with a single name out of the dispute when neither is more widely used. Then there is the issue of whether either of the local names should be considered English. If not, there is a less-used standard English name (what Google maps, treaties, etc. use). Anyway, I don't want to push my own ideas too much, just suggest you take a look and perhaps offer some guidance. --Cheers, Komdori 00:50, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to second that. The main thing is that any 'votes' are based on policy, and if we have to resort to Google counts it's based on a fair one. I don't want to say what this one would throw up but the last vote allowed a search of non-English pages and adding together of separate searches which is completely flawed. I just want to see a fair count. (Don't like slashes either). Thanks. Macgruder 18:11, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Genocide...

I'll get back to you soon. Will update text per the books involved.--Carwil 22:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Witch hunt perhaps

I am to say the least very concerned with your edits, to me it undoubtly seems like something of a witch hunt for the Bosniak people. I am not accusing you, but much of your retorics remind me of nationalistic serbian ones. And you'd be surprised how many serbs "hide" under an english name when editing, I suppose to "earn credibility" since the "whole" world wrongly believes the english to be "the only good ones". So if you feel that I accuse you of propaganda (rather than lack of knowledge) it is because I suspect nationalistic vibes, unfortunately. But as long as you will continue to deny the Bosniak people in order to claim Bosniak land on the behalf of Croats and Serbs, your edits will not be approved. Reminder: It is not very cultural to avoid discussions on wikipedia. Regards Ancient Land of Bosoni

WP:NOR

You know, all the comments at Talk:Holocaust_denial#Original_research_regarding_.22Holocaust_revisionist.22 about your edits being original research are indeed accurate, it was original research. Please read WP:NOR. Adding original research to articles on hot-button, controversial topics then make a dogged talk page stand when called on it is a sure-fire way to earn the community's distrust and exhaust its good will. You may want to consider this and rethink your method of contributing to the project. FeloniousMonk 04:53, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Recent attacks by "user: PBS" and others

I posted you this message on the Bosniaks talk page

In recent days, user "PBS" has been questioning the "term Bosniak", as he calls it. First off, Bosniak is not a "term" nor is it a "recently constructed name" - Bosniak (and Bosnia) have historical land founding roots back to the early middle ages. BOSNIAK is a historic ethnic designation for people who stem from Bosnia. User "PBS" has however been insisting on the highly inappropriate term "Bosnian Muslims", note: this is (in contrast to Bosniak) truly a TERM and not a historic NAME/ethnicity. This term came about in the 60's during a period when Yugoslavia and Bosnia were heavily dominated by serb/croat nationalist interests. The nationalist and communist serb and croat officials frankly denied Bosniaks as a people, despite that this people is the first one recorded to inhabit the Bosnian state, if you read the article you will see that BOSNJANI (Bosniaks, in old Bosnian language) are the first recorded people of modern Bosnia. And if you further read the 'Bosnians article' you will see that bosnian croat and serb nationalities didn't exist in Bosnia prior to the 19th century. Now "Bosnian Muslims" is an inappropriate term that the west ADOPTED from communist Yugoslavia, despite that this state was not based on human rights - the way the west handles and handled Bosnia is a disappointment of great magnitude, compare for example how the kurds in turkey were called "mountain turks" by turkish officials, I haven't however yet seen any western media use this designation. What I am trying to say is, Bosniaks are a people/ethnic group that are defined by the fact that Bosnia is their motherland and their common language is Bosnian - and NOT that their majority religion happeneds to be Islam -Bosniaks have existed even prior to Islam, as any normal humanbeing could suspect (see Bosnian church). And still one should not forget that Bosniak (and Bosnian language) is a name that is protected by the Bosnian constitution and international law. The fact that MEDIA uses a false term is no reason to call it appropriate - media is famous for missguiding people and facts. User PBS says that none of his friends nor he knew about bosniaks until he read wikipedia - well Philip, we live in a time when Bosniaks almost became extinct - something which was prepared for already in the sixties by giving Bosniaks the name "Muslims" in order to undermine them as a distinct people and instead designate them as merely a religious group. Politics aren't simply black or white, remember that. Nor is it a good characteristic to be morally equivavelent all of the time, sometimes neutrality automatically serves the purpous of the perpetrator. In the future you should double check all the Bosnian facts that you might hear from croat or serb users, I have noticed that you enjoy to engage in discussions with these people. Ancient Land of Bosoni

Do not be intimidated by these or similar posts of Bosnian Muslim nationalists. You have every right to make your own oppinion, and I'll inform you that term Bosniak was practically forgotten until the beggining of the war, when muslim nationalists started using it again in an attempt to create a nation for their new state. For a vast period of preceding time, inhabitants of Bosnia were simply called Bosnians, and it was known wheter someone was Serb, Croat or Muslim. --Velimir85 19:05, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Removal of data

Hey Philip, could you tell me why you removed the data? I don't think the fact that the data is duplicate justifies anything. In many previous disputes, whenever there was an archival session, I restored data back to the talk page & no admins said anything about it. I think that restoring the archive has many practical pros. For example, I doubt that most people read the archives when they vote (probably out of laziness), and they pour out their own personal theories & dogmas. But if they see the data, then they know what to vote on. Don't you think so? Also, are you an admin? (Wikimachine 19:22, 21 May 2007 (UTC))

Never mind. I didn't read your explanation. (Wikimachine 19:26, 21 May 2007 (UTC))

Tags: Most maintenance templates should be placed on the talk page

Wikipedia:Template standardisation/article

Phillip, I saw a post that you made over at Template talk:Cleanup last February. I couldn't agree more, and have been inspired by an essay I read on tags, which I hope you will read. Lately, you may have noticed the trend towards using a small icon, instead of a big gaudy tag, on sp pages. Well, User:Notmyhandle has created a similar small icon for articles needing cleanup. You can see this new small tag here. Please take a look, and if you like it, leave a supporting note on the Template talk:Cleanup page, where he has introduced it. Unschool 14:19, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

rv of Dokdo

I don't like you constantly removing my recalls of previous debates that I assume as unfinished & you know well that it's completely right for me to do so. If you keep this on, I'll bring this onto admins and other editors for their opinions. (Wikimachine 23:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

If you revert without discussing with me first, I'll see this as act of aggression & call on other admins & fellow editors for support. (Wikimachine 23:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

You don't reply, but your rever. Double bind: Either you purposely refuse to reply in order to shut the opposition completley, or you are not active and I can revert - to which you will not revert.

I doubt that the article will be moved back, but feel free to present information about meat/sockpuppeting on the Liancourt Rocks side says Husond. Now, do you understand? (Wikimachine 23:18, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

And you won't. I'll make sure that Husond & Visviva step up to stop this revert war that you're declaring. (Wikimachine 23:21, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

Wikimachine, you pointed me here and apparently you decided to make good on your threat [2]. I'd like to suggest you try to move forward on the article in question. I came here to thank Philip for at least trying to make some positive changes to the article and get it moving so something can develop besides the naming issue, saw this section and wanted to work my thanks into it (thanks Philip). Continuous posting on the name issue forever is going to result in a stall of virtually all progress on the article and almost certainly won't result in you gaining a consensus for your name. Apparently he's trying to avoid this disruption. —LactoseTI^T 23:21, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

But I don't see the move as final, and this is not a disruption. I will not let you stop me. (Wikimachine 23:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

What does that redirect answer? (Wikimachine 23:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

I don't want to get into an argument on another user's talk page, but an "I will not let you stop me" attitude is kind of indicative of "disruption." —LactoseTI^T 23:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

When the opposing party has clearly indicated that he will revert my future edits, I see my response as very moderate & controlled. (Wikimachine 23:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

So stop disrupting things; do it on your userspace if you want. No one is stopping you. The conclusion is made on the move, no one is stopping you from talking to other admins for more opinions, setting up this data on your userspace, etc. Just let editors make progress with the article at the same time. —LactoseTI^T 23:33, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

This appears to be one of those cases where a normally calming archive operation is instead percieved as taking sides and stifling debate. Philip, I agree with you in principle, but Wikimachine's going to have this discussion if he wants to. The article talk page is arguably the right place for it. Past a certain level of controversy, attempts to short-circuit giving the community its time and space to argue it all out (pointless or not) are counterproductive. The discussion has to happen for people to feel it's over and move past it. I recommend just leaving Wikimachine be and letting him have it (subject to usual NPA and CIVIL and so forth...). Georgewilliamherbert 00:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikimachine can discuss all that (s)he wants to discuss on the talk page. But Wikimachine has a tendency to copy over such large chunks from the archives,[3] [4] when a simple link will do. The problem is that it makes it difficult for people to check the edit history (for what people wrote) when large chunks are cut and pasted and it means that pages quickly reach their 32k limit and need archiving with upto 1/3 or more of the text already in an archive. In this case I have archived the talk page twice in 24 hours because it grew to over 200KB on both occasions. I'll let you draw your own conclusions over my actions in archiving the talk page after both the initial decision and the reconsideration. --PBS 00:37, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

You seem to have archived a large chunk of stuff he was actively working on today. Pages growing large should not automatically mean that we archive them - we archive when discussions are stale. Archiving twice in 24 hrs IS a problem...

This is not support for people generating 200k of content a day in one talk page. But if it happens, let it alone for long enough to reach its end point... Georgewilliamherbert 00:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Liancourt Rocks/Archive 11

I know it's not common to ask for a change of the archieve, but I did change it to at least reflect the fact that the allegations of sockpuppetry were not true. At the point after a long battle to prove those charges false, that's all I ask. I realize it does nothing to change the outcome, but at least makes me feel like I was heard instead of being invalidated because of trumped up false charges. Anyway, I'd appreciate if you'd let it be. Davidpdx 05:29, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Genocide in China

Please see the talk page in Genocides in history.Editingman 05:18, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Sabra and Shatila

That sounds perfect for me. Thank you for your good job.
With so much emphase on the "official" point of view, maybe -if there exist- some comments from Palestinian officials (to have the "victims" point of view) would definitely close the case.
But personnally, I never found them.
Regards, Alithien 07:03, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok. I found this.

In the lawsuit against Ariel Sharon, the "victims" added the "crime of genocide" against Ariel Sharon (See official documents on this website). So, from their point of view, there has been a genocide. I think this has to be mentioned too.

Could you help ? Thank you ! Alithien 08:17, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Re: Diggers, etc.

Thank you for the excellent work you've done with page moves and disambiguation on the articles relating to the Diggers. It is greatly appreciated. After your page move on Diggers, I went to the redirect page, checked the list of articles that linked thereto, and altered all the articles (I did not touch talk pages of any kind) in order to avoid the redirect. Little by little, this sort of sorting out and cleaning up will continue. Thanks again. ---Theoldanarchist_Comhrá<;/font> 05:28, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Another Warning

You have been engaging in an edit war on First War of Indian Independence to push your POV, having little regard to building a consensus and have not been following Wikipedia policies. You may have emotional attachment to your nation/heritage but that does not entitle you to sweep noted historical facts under the carpet. Nor does it give you a Carte Blanche to use obscure non-scholastic sources to push your POV. You have been warned.

Please read Wikipedia:Resolving disputes, Wikipedia:Requests for comment and Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct.

I also urge you to read Wikipedia:Vandalism#What vandalism is not, Wikipedia:Avoid the word "vandal" and Wikipedia:Assume good faith, to see that you have been rightly pointed out as a vandal as you have continuously vandalized First War of Indian Independence

Jvalant 08:19, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

That complicated mess...

Hi there. I see you performed a move over a redirect back in February, following the discussion at what is now Talk:Wizard (fantasy). Just wanted to check if you had any insights into the rest of the long, long discussions on that talk pages, and the half-hearted attempt I made here to try and understand the history of the mergers, moves and so on. Carcharoth 10:26, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Whois on IP user's talk page

I'm just curious (no sarcasm), why did you add a WHOIS to User talk:89.102.140.194? From what I've seen (only checked a few edits of him, especially on my watched articles) this user has made a few controversial edits, but seems to be a good-faith editor. If there's no real problem I'd beg you to put it in chronological order and add some context, because these things can really scare away new users. If I have overlooked something, please leave me a short notice here. Thanks. Malc82 20:47, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification, my bad. Malc82 21:07, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Combatants merger

Hi Philip, I agree with the merger of the articles mention at Talk:Unlawful enemy combatant. I have also suggested we combine some other articles too so you might want to take a look at the page. Thanks for your work. JodyB _talk 13:46, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for your notice at Sinmiyangyo. I left a reply supporting the Korean Expedition of 1871 (if I had to choose between those 2). (Wikimachine 16:43, 9 June 2007 (UTC))

Randyreporter

Thanks for the heads up. I actually don't think it's the same person (although it might be). I'm pretty certain that Randyreporter is a user that I know from another forum. He may be the same person as EthioFreedom or MarkSwansonReporter, who have all similar interests, names, and editing styles. For IPs, you can see the two I listed at WP:ANI/3RR. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 22:51, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks!

Thanks for taking care of the move of Korean Expedition of 1871 and for keeping your head cool in the debate. I have absolutely no idea why the suggestion of such a trivial move provoked so much hostility, especially since the outcome was more or less given. Anyway, I decided to take a back seat since my presence in the discussion only seemed to exacerbate the deadlock. Tomorrow I will leave and I will behind the Great Firewall for most of the summer, so I don't expect that I will be able to edit on a regular basis. Thanks again!--Amban 15:33, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Accusations of French genocide against Algerians

An editor has asked for a deletion review of Accusations of French genocide against Algerians. Since you closed the deletion discussion for this article or speedy-deleted it, you might want to participate in the deletion review. Bleh999 14:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

To be honest I am surprised by your deletion here. You can't say you didn't know the article changed since its deletion, more than a year ago, since you edited the talk page last November. You really should have brought it to AFD instead of deleting it as you did. I don't think that page is perfect, and I wouldn't cry too long if it was deleted after the community discussed it. I was not around at the time of the first deletion, but If I remember well (I don't want to be near the undelete button since I am involved) it has been massively rewritten during the last year. -- lucasbfr ^talk 16:39, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

3RR

You yourself have broken the 3rr rule in response to m yedits, while also blanking all my edits without reason which is againt Wikipedis' views. Choose and explain waht u disagree with althoug hmy edits were fine, so buzz off. 69.157.101.194 18:58, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

mercenaries

You completely fail to understand what a mercenary is. It is a soldier fighting primarily for profit. that is not a legal situation, it does not depend on POW treatment, it does not depend on oaths to the queen, it depends on whether a mercenary is working for profit. As far as sources go, the basic defintion the Oxford English Dictionary gives for a mercenary is very wide, "a soldier paid to serve in a foreign army or other military organization", which does, without any doubt whatsoever, include Ghurkhas and Legionaries. You surely cannot attempt to disagree with the OED, or claim the OED is "contentious", so as far as i am concerned the matter is now closed. Mesoso2 22:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Belligero

I note you have accused Belligero of making copyvio's at "Genocides in history". He also made a long post at the Stalin page today that appeared to be a barely disguised rewrite of some academic papers on the net. I therefore suspect this may be some sort of MO on his part.

I haven't said anything to him yet, but if he does it again I will give him a warning. Might be an idea to keep an eye on his edits with that in mind. Regards, Gatoclass 04:20, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks very much Phillip, that will at least save me some work for the next couple of days :) Gatoclass 15:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I blocked them the first time after I reverted the infringements, warned them and then saw them reverting my chages and adding the infringements back again. I get the feeling they don't listen too well. They seem to be building themselves up into a rage over your block and using the term genocide in its proper sense. If you have any problems in the future with this person, please get in touch and I will deal with it for you. TimVickers 18:36, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Regicide

Perhaps you would be interested in my comments on the Regicide discussion page. --Counter-revolutionary 14:04, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

100 days

I am asking editors that I know and trust to help me rewrite 100 days, God its awful! I can sure use you! Tirronan 01:16, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Redirect of Moscow Treaty (1880)

Hello, this is a message from an automated bot. A tag has been placed on Moscow Treaty (1880), by Graeme Bartlett (talk · contribs), another Wikipedia user, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. The tag claims that it should be speedily deleted because Moscow Treaty (1880) is a redirect to a non-existent page (CSD R1).

To contest the tagging and request that administrators wait before possibly deleting Moscow Treaty (1880), please affix the template {{hangon}} to the page, and put a note on its talk page. If the article has already been deleted, see the advice and instructions at WP:WMD. Please note, this bot is only informing you of the nomination for speedy deletion, it did not nominate Moscow Treaty (1880) itself. Feel free to leave a message on the bot operator's talk page if you have any questions about this or any problems with this bot. --Android Mouse Bot 2 09:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi Philip, I am doing a big clean up of redirected pages that go to deleted pages that were deleted as CSD, prod or AfD. It seems that the bot is not quite smart enough to realise that this is probably a non issue! GB 09:57, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Tibet

Can I says USA occupied Texas and Hawaii?

• For the point of view of Tibet Movement Activists, Tibet is occupied by China, but Tibet is definitely historical part of China.
• I edit Hawaii and Texas as Military occupation, but reverted by Western viewpoint editor! To Chinese, we can say Hawaii and Texas are occupied by USA.
• Don't show your Western double standard. Here is not Western Wiki.user:198.155.145.88

Actually, that's a mistake. The anon put that comment there, and I accidentally rolled it back off and then rolled it back on again. Those are the words of the anon.Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Torture, survey info, disproved sentence removal.

Regarding your edits to Torture; The survey info was specifically added to counterprove the previous sentence "Nevertheless in the 21^st Century torture is almost universally considered to be an extreme violation of human rights," which is literally contradicted by the survey info. So if this survey information is going to be moved then the sentence it was ment to counterprove will have to be removed from the artical in its' entirety. You do not need to take any action as I have already removed the offending sentence from the artical.

It saddens me that I must now consider 29% of the world population the 'enemy'. --ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE 07:39, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

First recorded genocide

• ;-) Alithien 10:30, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

? --ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE 22:07, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Étienne Maurice Gérard

I gave reverted your links on the Étienne Maurice Gérard article. Those two corps was formed ad hoc and dissolved when the war was over, for those it is best to use the name of the parent army, for exmaple: III Corps (Grande Armée). The first permanent corps in the French Army was formed after the Franco-Prussian War and fought in World War I and II and was active during the Cold War, for example: III Corps (France). Carl Logan 19:58, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I have seen that you read my post, but I am not sure you fully understod my point. During the Napoleonic Wars there was a number of French armies and many of them had a I Corps. There wasn’t one I Corps but several and they were disbanded when the campaign was over and the crosp HQ dissolved. After 1870 the French Army created permanent corps, there was only one I Corps, one II Corps and so on, each with a permanent corps HQ, even during peacetime. Carl Logan 16:44, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Oka Crisis

You're right, I shouldn't have responded that way, and I realized it fairly quickly, which is why I switched to the Talk page. I know I should assume good faith, but his first two edits involved removing a perfectly relevant link from one page, and a referenced sentence from another, then he made a bunch of inflammatory edits and comments on the oka crisis page. Not exactly the best way to get people to take you seriously... - TheMightyQuill 19:06, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Bosnian Genocide

Hi, left a reply to your reply on the Bosnian Genocide talk page. Hope I get my point accross more clearly than last. CheersOsli73 23:30, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Trench warfare up for review

Trench warfare has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here.--Konstable 14:04, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank for the help.

Your message was a big help Philip. I'm new to wikipedia and I feel a bit like a bull in a china shop right now. Thanks for the assistance.

Julian Watson 03:07, 8 July 2007 (UTC)Julian Watson

Steeplechase

Hi Philip, you recently moved Steeplechase (horse racing) to steeplechase with the explanation that it is the "primary meaning". Having done my share of dab corrections for this article and looking at Special:Whatlinkshere/Steeplechase (athletics) in comparison with Special:Whatlinkshere/Steeplechase (horse racing) I'd say the number of uses for those two meanings is about the same. WP:DAB#Primary topic then to me seems to indicate there is no primary topic in this case. Anything I overlooked? --S.K. 17:27, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

The primary meaning of steeplechase is horse racing. The OED says:

1. A horse-race across country or on a made course with artificial fences, water-jumps, and other obstacles. Formerly, a race having a church steeple in view as goal, in which all intervening obstacles had to be cleared.

2. transf. A foot-race across country or over a course furnished with hurdles, ditches, and other obstacles.

--PBS 17:36, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Note that I did not change the ordering when I created the Hurdling (disambiguation) even though the OED say that the original meaning for hurdle-race is the horse racing type, because I suspect that the most common meaning would be athletics. (Google supports that by about the same as it does steeplechasing the other way) --PBS 17:46, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Lets keep the discussion on one page.

I'm not questioning that the horse race is the original meaning, only that I think nowadays it is no longer the primary one. And if I look at Google, I get 462,000 hits for "Steeplechase horse" versus 383,000 for "Steeplechase athletics". Not that overwhelming a difference, in line with the Wikipedia usage, as far as I can see. --S.K. 18:10, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that this is a discussion of angels on pin heads. The original meannig and the common usage in this case is the same. Common usage is the reason that I did not bother to change hurdling which is in about the same ratio the other way around and why hurdling now has a "see hurdling (disambiguation)" at the top of the article (I was supprised one did not already exist. If the Steeplechase (athletics) had been at steeplechase then I would probably not have bothered (and would have put a "see disambiguation" at the top if one did not exist) or I might have put in a WP:RM and discussed this situation in a requested move. But as it was a disambiguation page I see no harm in the move as it does not effect the articles linked to Steeplechase (athletics). --PBS 18:26, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay, it's probably not that important but except for your statement I see no other indication that horse racing is the primary meaning of steeplechase. The reason that I'm concerned is that before it was very easy to dab links to steeplechase. Everything pointing there had to be disambiguated. Now one has to look through all pages linking there and find the ones that are wrong. --S.K. 18:47, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

"Names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors" (WP:NC) for more than half the readers it is easier for the other half it is no more difficult. Any links which are linked to the wrong article can be fixed by an editor when they notice the error. --PBS 20:01, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

About 50% of the users that type in steeplechase get the wrong page.
If there is extended discussion about which article truly is the primary topic, that may be a sign that there is in fact no primary topic, and that the disambiguation page should be located at the plain title with no "(disambiguation)". (WP:DAB#Primary topic) --S.K. 20:26, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

It seems that you and I disagree. Take it to WP:RM if you think that it is worth debating the issue further. Please let me know if you do. --PBS 21:29, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Seems we agree to disagreee. :-) I'll take it up at WP:RM. Thanks, --S.K. 07:00, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Battle of La Suffel

PH probably does have something on this as it looks like part of the seige campaign that went on after Waterloo, must have been about 24 of these from what I remember. I'll have a look tonight as I am at work now. Oh and thanks for the help on the hundred days. Tirronan 19:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Phillip, I've checked and there were actions all over the place, around the area you give there were 3 fortresses under seige by the Prussian II Corps and the North German Corps. These started on or about the 26th and 2 of them continued until Sept. There is no mention of this action and 20k troops would have been huge in this area of operations being greater in total than either of these Corps. Rapp marching around either would have been noted. I've checked the operations around Paris which was being surrounded at this point and see to references to Napoleon and Davot ordering him to assist that area but no mention of him again in any action. What ever folks may think of PH he is pretty meticulous in his affairs and I don't see him missing this. A formed Corps of 20k troops would have had a large impact as the Main forces around Paris both British and Prussian barely numbered 100k. If you have any information around this battle it might assist in my search but as of now I find not a word of support for this. I'm getting a bit suspisious of this battle. Tirronan 16:19, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Korea vs. Japan

Having been in the US Navy you get around more than a bit. One of the things you get shocked by is the amount of out right hate there still exists between the 2 Nations, well the Chinese are no fans either, sheesh to be honest I think most of the surounding Nations are not all that happy about Japan. There are serveral island groups that are contested like the ones mentioned and the Chinese Navy sank a Vietnamese gunboat over one of them in another island group. As I take it the Japanese were not the nicest conquorers where Korea was concerned and I gather that is coloring the issue more than a bit. These islands are 1 of 4 groups that are fairly hotly issues with the various countries. Some of them are mear collections of rocks barely above sealevel. I don't get it but then we Westerners have gotten in some pretty strange wars, I just finished a book on the 1812 war and it still leaves me scratching my head. Tirronan 00:33, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Bosnian Genocide

Hi, though I'd drop you a line. I see that you replaced my new intro text

The term Bosnian Genocide is used to refer either to the Srebrenica massacre or, by some, to the killing of Bosniaks during the 1992-1995 war in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

with the old text about the outcome of the ICJ court case. I'll explain myself, the reason I replaced the intro text was that I though it a bit odd to start off with a very specific text about the ICJ ruling when the term "Bosnian genocide" is really a term used (both before and independently of the ICJ case) by those who believe that the ethnic cleansing of the 92-95 war constituted genocide. The ICJ court case was an outcome of that belief (of which the most important finding was that, there hadn't been any general genocide in Bosnia outside of the Srebrenica massacre. Of course, there are those who believe this ruling to be wrong. CheersOsli73 16:23, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Berlin

No, this is about following capitulation of ALL GERMAN FORCES - in Germany, Czechoslovakia, Norway, Austria... in FRANCE, on May 7.. caused by fall of Berlin/hitler... Just read the beginning: "The fighting did not finish with the death of Hitler and the capitulation of Berlin. Some of the German forces which had been fighting against the three Soviet fronts continued to resist up to the end of the War in Europe" - said end of war was THE capitulation! In France, 5 days later, by the people who were not in Berlin. --HanzoHattori 15:57, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Walter Model A-class review

Hi Philip,

As someone who clearly knows his stuff when it comes to Milhist, I hope it's not too much of an intrusion if you could have a look at Walter Model? I've been working on it for a few weeks, and nominated it for A-class status. Thanks very much.

PS. Thanks also for keeping calm and not raising your voice throughout the Berlin kerfuffle. -- Hongooi 16:18, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for agreeing to comment. I'm easy on where it goes; I guess since I've asked for a peer review, that's the most logical place. If you feel it's warranted, you could vote on the assessment as well.

Also, after reading this guy's bio, I get the feeling he's what would happen if Steve Ballmer was a field marshal. -- Hongooi 01:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

some answer, someday ?

[5]. Tshaw, RCS 11:40, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

3RR (Re: Wikipedia:Footnotes)

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Wikipedia:Footnotes. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content which gains a consensus among editors. Nat Tang ^{ta | co | em} 18:45, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Alternative title for Bosnian Genocide article

I eagerly await your response to my question. Live Forever 21:01, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

RfC?

It may be easier to put WP:FOOTNOTE up fir MfD through...Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:35, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

You may also be interested in the straw poll at Wikipedia_talk:Citing_sources#Straw_Poll. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:54, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Kosovo: country debate

Hello. There's a discussion going on Talk:List of countries as to whether or not Kosovo should be included in that list. You've contributed to discussions on the page and I thought you might be interested. The articles List of countries and Annex to the list of countries (where the inclusion criteria reside) are both relevant. Cheers. DSuser 13:44, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi again. It's probably a minor point, but there a discussion and vote going on at Talk:Kosovo#Kosovo:_terminology as to whether or not it's better to use Kosovo rather than Kosovan or Kosovar in the Wikipedia articles. Perhaps you have no interest, in which case sorry to bother you! DSuser 15:53, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

A request

The article Night of the Long Knives is now a featured article candidate at WP:FAC. Your input would be especially appreciated.--Mcattell 21:56, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Template:RFChist list

I have nothing to do with that template. Ask Betacommand. MessedRocker (talk) 12:19, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Battle of Berlin

Hello

What are you doing in the battle of Berlin article

From your edits it looks like that 45,000 soldiers and 40,000 were ALONE fighting 2,5 million Soldiers and these 85,000 men were able to inflict some 280,000 casualties

If you look at all other languages they all say that the Axis had 1,000,000 men

So why do you say that the Axis only had 85,000? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shipslong45 (talk • contribs) 10:34, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

This internet LEARNING home page also says 1 million

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/battle_for_berlin.htm

So I will add the 1 million again ok? Shipslong45 10:47, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

HUH?

Just go here and look

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/battle_for_berlin.htm

This is very Verifiable and Reliable since it is an official site sanctioned by the United Kingdom to educate its citizens, it does not get more reliable then that Shipslong45 10:51, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

The 1 million was the figure initially given in Soviet estimates. In other words, 1 million defenders is what the USSR prepared for in their plans. However, due to the depleted nature of the divisions facing them, the actual strength was probably somewhat less. My gut feeling says ~700,000, which would account for the difficulties encountered in the campaign, as well as the high body count and the numbers of prisoners taken. The German strength total couldn't have been much less than 600,000, in my estimation. Combining the five field armies, plus Op Group Steiner, plus Volkssturm, plus police units you have something at least on the order of 50-60 divisions. Given that German divisions tended to be on the large side, if you treated those 50-60 divisions as full strength you would very well end up with a figure close to 1 million. Allowing for some depletion but retaining combat effectiveness, a more realistic total would be somewhat less, but not significantly less. There's no way to go here except by estimating, since Germany didn't have an accounting system in 1945, and what they did have was already breaking down in 44.

Unfortunately, the only figures that hint at an accurate total either this immediate postwar Soviet estimate of casualties I found (~937,000 killed/captured out of the expected 1,000,000), which is more of historigraphic rather than historical interest, or slanted pro-German accounts that seek to minimize any and all German engagement in this campaign out of some perverse sense of national honor (and I'm not bashing Ziemke, just idiots like Albert Seaton). It's true that the total Berlin garrison numbered 80,000-100,000, but if one wants to confine the operational area to the city itself, Soviet troop strengths would have to be revised to 350,000 for the seven armies that participated in the assault itself.

That said, there has to be some way of putting up reasonable estimates, but all the sources I have read either use the 1,000,000 figure (probably more accurate but not good enough for reasons stated above) or play the transparently disingenuous lowballing game that assumes the reader has no grasp of basic arithmetic. When/IF I find a sourced statistic that seems reasonable, I'll try to put it up. Until then, would it be all right to qualify the 1,000,000 figure as an initial estimate? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.160.55.123 (talk) 15:07:42, August 19, 2007 (UTC)

Early human rocket flight efforts

You have not completed the AfD nomination for Early human rocket flight efforts. See the instructions at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion#How to list pages for deletion – you have to create the discussion page with your rationale, and list the discussion on the AfD project page. — Swpb^talk|edits 15:35, 30 July 2007 (UTC) 13:11, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Copyvio

Hi there Philip. I came across another substantial copyvio at the Endemic warfare page - most of the article, actually!

I've deleted the offending material, and left a note to that effect on the article's talk page, but since I'm not an admin I haven't left a warning note at the user's talk page, I thought that would probably be best left to an admin if it is deemed appropriate. Thanks, Gatoclass 19:43, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll go back through some of the recent edits by 89.102.140.194 and see if I can spot any similar problems.

- Thanks Philip, but if you're planning to do that, I should let you know that you can save yourself the trouble regarding the "list of wars and disasters by death toll" page as it is not suitable for copyedits and I keep a close watch on this page myself. Gatoclass 06:47, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Original Research/Gatoclass

Hi Philip, I came across some original research at the List of wars and disasters by death toll page (for example, 50 million dead from man-made famines under the British Raj). That's just unprofessional and leads to disputes of neutrality. Wikipedia is not a blog. Sections Genocide and Democide & Man-made famines need a major rethink. See Talk:List of wars and disasters by death toll.

Wikipedia:No original research (NOR) is one of three content policies. Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought.

I've removed some of the offending material, but as you know since I've had a number of differences of opinion with editor Gatoclass already I thought it might be best if the warning came from an admin rather than an adversary, so I contacted you. By the way, I've checked the Endemic warfare page and I admit your previous warning about copyedit was partly legitimate, however, some deleted material at the Endemic warfare page wasn't copyedit. 89.102.140.194 09:26, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Wilhelmstraße

I see you closed the last move discussion on Wilhelmstrasse. It has now been moved unilaterally; you may wish to !vote on whether it should be moved back. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Re discussion at Talk:Consensus

at Wikipedia Talk:Consensus#Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (sorry the section link doesn't work) you said:

why do you say straw man, Kim put the argument forward that "it is possible that a single person ultimately determines the outcome of a discussion (because their arguments are very convincing indeed" but that is not true unless the others in the discussion change their minds and unless everyone does, one is still going to have to work with a rough consensus. --PBS

I apologize if I misinterpreted your message. I thought you were putting forward a rhetorical question to argue against a point made by Kim Bruning. I said "straw man" because you and Kim Bruning seem to be talking about two different situations. Kim Bruning was talking about the possibility that one person might convince enough people to lead to consensus. You were talking, apparently, about a situation where the person does not convince that many people. --Coppertwig 23:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Battle of Waterloo nomination for Good Article status

Hi there. I've nominated Battle of Waterloo for GA status. In my opinion it has the makings of a Featured Article, but I think GA would be a good start. Anyway, it's been reviewed on the talk page, and quite a long list of suggestions for fine-grained improvements has been left there. I'll try to implement a few of them over the next few days, if I have time, but I figured, since you're more of a regular contributor to the article, you might be interested in bringing it up to GA. -Kieran 11:19, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Former eastern territories of Germany

Hi. i dont understand, whz the history before 1871 seems so uninteresting to u? there is much mess and confusion about these regions between poles and germans right now today. some people in germany do not understand, why the poles call these regions Recovered Territories. Thats, why i tried to add some information about the history before the germans came there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.51.23.201 (talk) 23:21, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

List of wars and disasters by death toll

I am reverting it again because there has been no consensus made on the talk page. Please refrain from blanking the section until a consensus is made agreeing to do so. --Effer^AKS 21:37, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Battle of Quatre Bras

I've added the requested pages to the reference and added another. I've done the same for the Battle of Waterloo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tirronan (talk • contribs) 04:30, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Completed as requested Tirronan 11:59, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Battle of Ligny German->English

Yes there is good information here and I will assist. After a brief look please be aware that we are going to have a real challenge to convert the automatic translation to something an English reader will understand. Also we are going to have to footnote the hell out of it since there seems to be little of it in the existing article. I'm willing to do this. Please leave the outpost information I have put in the existing article in place as that seems to be new information. We also need to put in more on the intellegence/counterintellegence battle that was going on as this seemed to really confuse Wellington and delayed his reactions. Its important and also has use in the 100 days article. Tirronan 15:25, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Hope this was of some help to you Phillip Tirronan 21:04, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Bangladesh war of independence

It is being suggested a few points or minor sections of Bangladesh Liberation War may be merged with Bangladesh War of Independence 1971 (discuss) User: Muraad Kahn 11:00, 16 September 2007

Battle capitalisation

Thanks for the advertising. I did mention it briefly on the WikiProject talk page, but you've garnered a lot more interest. I really think it would be productive to establish a standard way of doing this. -Kieran 10:58, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Battle of Waterloo edits

Thanks for your tidy up of my edits. There are two things which I propose to change.

1. Juncture - Replace "at the juncture between the area where Wellington's allied army was cantoned to his north-west, and Blücher's Prussian army that was dispersed to the north-east" with "at the road junction between Wellington's allied army to his north-west and Blücher's Prussian army to his north-east".
2. Cannon - Replace "Napoleon had 80 of his cannons drawn up in the centre to form a grande batterie. These opened fire between noon and 13:30" with "Napoleon formed a "grande batterie" of 80 cannon in the centre, opening fire between noon and 13:30".

Comments? --ROGER DAVIES ^TALK 11:16, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Ping! --ROGER DAVIES ^TALK 14:47, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Ping! --ROGER DAVIES ^TALK 11:06, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Help:Archiving a talk page

Since you have recently edited the Help page, I'd like to notify you of a current dispute between me and another user over certain additions to the help page, located at Help talk:Archiving a talk page. It appears we cannot establish consensus between the two of us and any input by others would be greatly appreciated. I also posted to the Help desk, since I figured it's regularly frequented by a large number of users interested in the general issue of helping other Wikipedians. — [ aldebaer⁠ ] 17:29, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Footnotes

What compromise wording? It's just you enforcing an editing style that we don't use on Wikipedia. That makes no sense. We use cite.php referencing after punctuation. It's really that simple. And why would anyone use cite.php before punctuation? It looks terrible on the page, breaks up the flow of the paragraph, and serves no useful purpose. —Viriditas | Talk 23:01, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Replied on the talk page. Thanks for your patience. —Viriditas | Talk 23:49, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Invitation to vote

You as someone who participated in the editing of English people article might be interested in taking part in this discussion. Feel free to state your opinion. M.V.E.i. 16:28, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Dresden bombing, Irving & Evans

The things Evans claim are psychologically impossible. That is clear that Irving was in the firm belief about that court must make desision in his favor. He couldn't be so confident if he forged everything that can be forged, like Evans wants me to believe. Evans points number of only 25,000 dead in totally destroyed Dresden (population was about a million). 25,000 is only a number of the buried bodies. After the firestorm with the temperature of 1000C nothing but dark spot remains from the body. So how Evans can be trusted? Evans accepted £250,000 from Lipstadt for his opinion. He is, probably, just a liar. I'll sooner believe that Irving attempted to rape Lipstadt then believe Evans. By the way, in post-Soviet countries the number of people killed during destruction of Dresden (most accepted by modern Russian historians) is about 300,000.--Igor "the Otter" 07:23, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Burma

Thank you, I've been arguing for that correction for over a year, and it near wrecked the Burma WP. Now, will all categories, such as Category:Cities in Myanmar also need to be renamed? Chris 21:22, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Template:Refimprove

Hello, on this edit Diff could you replace the date on the template and change the image back to "none" in keeping with the format at {{unreferenced}}? Jeepday (talk) 02:53, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks :) Jeepday (talk) 13:01, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I was just noticed, the wording changed from "references or sources" to "citations" Diff {{Refimprove}} and {{unreferenced}} are not about citations they are about references. {{Citation style}} is about citations. Citation is more of a style choice for how you list references. References are where you got the information to write the article. There are three things here (extremes given for clarity)

1. An article (no good examples because they get deleted) that never had references - Fails WP:NOR because the author made it up
2. An article (Peanut juice) that is probably sourced from a reliable source but the source is not listed - Fails WP:V because the reader can not check that material has already been published by a reliable source
3. An article (Performance audit) with sources listed but it is not clear what text is from what source - Does not fail any Wikipedia policy but could be improved

Have we been talking about different things at Template talk:Unreferenced? Jeepday (talk) 03:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Hundred Days

les Cent Jours, your note, and your 'reversion'.

You may not have actually read the text I added. It's a clear improvement on the very dated and frankly quite idiosyncratic material it replaced, even if it appeared as 'uncited' at first look. It did actually mention the historians in question a couple of times, though I did not add the books to the bibliography at the end. Certainly, a wholesale excision and return to the text of the 1911 EB (!) seems counterproductive.

I certainly don't expect this article to reach the level of the Waterloo article. The latter is a favourite subject with armchair generals; the former, especially the political aspects, which are the only really relevant parts, are of no such interest to the general public.

Thank you for your links.

Relata refero 17:53, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Your note is a little puzzling to me: the text I replace hardly needs citation, as it is from the EB 1911, as I have mentioned already. The text I added cites a historian by name - writing in a revised edition of one of the most standard texts of 19th C Europe. Still, since it appears that that is considered insufficient for some reason, I've added a detailed reference. Essay tags are fine, but overusing them and citation tags is messy. I would recommend creating a new template which combines the two , indicating an article is based in large part on the 1911 EB and thus needs revision for tone, bias, and modern sourcing. Thank you for helping. Relata refero 09:15, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Two things: you have reverted my changes again, which means that you have restored the earlier, "uncited" text, as well as many deletions that I had made to improve the essay-like character of the article. I provided the appropriate citation for the few points that I had added. You changed the name of the infobox. Seoncd:The Hundred Days is not the same as the Waterloo campaign in modern usage; the political dimensions of it, and the effect on the Congress of Vienna are far more important. If you wish to create a page solely on troop movement which is summarised there, please do so. But I suggest that you explain in future your reasons before you re-introduce vast amounts of meandering, fact-tagged material. Relata refero 05:00, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I have responded on the article talkpage; your remarks there are not really responses to my remarks above. (Unsurprisingly, because I hadn't written them before you wrote on the article talkpage.) Relata refero 17:53, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, thanks for the warning, but I've been around here as an anon for years, and I know the drill. Relata refero 17:56, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Bangladesh liberation war

I notice you haven't changed the death toll low estimate on this page to 25,000 the way you did at List of wars. It still reads as "307,013". Isn't it time you changed this estimate too? Gatoclass 10:58, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Genocide Definition

Thanks, Philip for sorting out the definition, yet once again. Joel Mc 17:54, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Soviet Union genocide

From the genocides in history#Soviet Union

I don't understand why somebody claims following "In legal terms, the word "genocide" may not be appropriate, because there was no proven intent to destroy a specific national, ethnic, racial or religious group."

The good example is Soviet extermination of Poles 1937-1938. We have documented the whole operation directed for the ethnic group selected due to nationality. We have documented number of victims. What else is needed to remove this false statement?? Cautious 09:44, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I have answered your statement in talk page. Please reply before you make changes. I particulary disagree with statement that Soviets didn't kill people because of their religion and nationality. All Poles in 1937 and 1938 were targeted. Do you know what has happenned to KPP?

Cautious 12:45, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

2 specific large deletions from Torture article

Regarding 2 subtopics started this weekend.

One, entitled "Involuntary commitment" http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Torture&diff=164693609 Your edit summary specifies - (→Medical torture - Removed USA specific paragraphs. These should be added to the main article and/of the USA section of the article Uses of torture in recent times)...

The other, entitled "Institutionalized Torture in Prisons" http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Torture&diff=164693776&oldid=164693609 Your edit summary specifies - (→Institutionalized Torture in Prisons - US specific. This incormation can be added to the the USA section of the article Uses of torture in recent times)

However you do not move either section. Why did you delete instead of doing a cut and paste move?

BTW, the "main article" is obviously not the place for the material you referred to as that is not the purpose of a Main Article. The main article is to be a summary of what the article below covers.

Waiting to hear your explanation as I am baffled why a cut and paste move turned into deletion of two large new edits. Kiwi 17:00, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

• COMMENT - it is a wikipedia aim to present "world views", not just a USA pov. However many sub-topics in this article could present a "how it is in America" while it will also talk about how it is was in the US in the past and how it is/was in other countries. While there is, currently, a USA section dealing with an overview of the Constitutional and Bill of Rights protections, simply because portions of both these new subtopics addressed "how it was then and is now" in America" does not mean that the entire topic somehow becomes "a sup-topic specific to America. This is because all countries over the world have the mentally ill and prisons. Kiwi 17:16, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

football (word)

Well you have been badgering me about a citation :-) Anyway, I take your point, I didn't take in that it was admin-only protected rather than ordinary protection and I would have discussed it first on the talk page had I realised. Grant | Talk 11:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Template:War

Hello, I noticed you participated on the talk page previously, I created a new template and I am attempting to build a consensus for it's use, would you mind taking a look at the talk page Chessy999 17:20, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Enemy (military) - please use the article talk page for input and not an over-zealous #Redirect, thank you. Chessy999 13:19, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I see your point, but let's leave the article posted for now, so other editors can find it more easily and read it, then participate on the talk page. Unlikely, they would delete if there is an ongoing discussion on the talk page. Chessy999 13:58, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Lack of engagement re: the Vendée

You don't seem to be engaging with any of my contentions, or any of the sources, but still continue to edit and revert the page. Ledenierhomme 16:05, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you

And you may wish to consider Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#Punctuation_with_quotation_marks. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:26, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Pyroterrorism

In view of your many contributions to the terrorism article, would you please consider commenting at Pyroterrorism DRV. Thanks. -- Jreferee t/c 00:47, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Bad link going nowhere

It looks like I touched the wrong link; thanks for finding/fixing it. I only was trying to delete a link in this paragraph that went nowhere. I have routinely seen editors do this and saw nothing in the way of a precedent requiring a discussion over such matters, though I see a rationale for such. But do as you wish with it. Thanks Hmains 19:12, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

In Remembrance...

--nat ^{Alo! Salut! Sunt eu, un haiduc?!?!} 17:52, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Request for mediation not accepted

A Request for Mediation to which you were are a party was not accepted and has been delisted. You can find more information on the case subpage, Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Genocides in history. For the Mediation Committee, Daniel 04:18, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

This message delivered by MediationBot, an automated bot account operated by the Mediation Committee to perform case management.
If you have questions about this bot, please contact the Mediation Committee directly.

Footnotes

Thank you; I have expressed myself. I would be willing to endorse an RfC on Omegatron; I would recommend limiting it to the simple facts: he expressed an opinion in the poll; the poll demonstrated absence of consensus; he protected, having first reverted to the version he prefers; he did not use {{protected}}, and he has aborted a conversation between Gimmetrow and yourself.

As a practical matter, I would wait 24 hours; and please note that, as an American, I cannot guarantee being on line at the end of the week. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:48, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Beowulf (Hero)

Hello, would you please place fact tags precisely where you are requesting citations on the Beowulf (hero) article? :bloodofox: (talk) 11:51, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I see you've added two tags. However, I am confused about the first one. Isn't it obvious a number of etymologies have been proposed? Is it the wording that you are questioning? If so, what would you prefer? "A number" rather than "numerous"?

Are you requesting a citation that Henry Sweet is "philologist and early linguist specializing in Germanic languages"? :bloodofox: (talk) 11:58, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I have reworded the terms for neutrality, though I think tagging the word "numerous" when three examples are given below (and I could dig up at least a few more) with a citation tag is a bit much. Is there somewhere else you'd like citations or rewording? :bloodofox: (talk) 12:08, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

British History Online

We seem to have been working at cross purposes on this--you changed it to a redirect to List of digital library projects, but I without realising it removed the details from that list because the list does not otherwise have details, but refers to the articles on the individual projects. I'll try to reconstitute and expand the article, but I can't find the earlier history. DGG (talk) 03:05, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

wondered if it might be that. I'll try to do an article. Thee should be some info available, since I have heard about it. thanks for getting it in DGG (talk) 23:49, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Genocide and arbcom

you wrote in Talk:List of massacres#Getting nowhere fast:

But it is an interpretation endorsed by Arbcom! They have ruled that referring to a genocide that occurred before the word was coined and defined as "genocide" was "original research".

I spend a lot of time firefighting on genocide articles, and did not realise that there was such an Arbcom ruling. Please could you provide me with a link to the page. --PBS (talk) 19:50, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Philip. (I have also replied on my talkpage) - You'll find it here.

The decision is completely illogical nonsense - but I'm still bound to curtail my freedom of expression based on it. This is the bit you'll be interested in:

Sarah777 engaged in original research

2) Sarah777 (talk · contribs) engaged in original research on Great Irish Famine over the usage of the term "genocide." ([6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12]).

Passed 7 to 0, 21:46, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

My argument that the famine met the current UN definition of genocide was not disputed - but rather was dismissed as "synthesis" and hence "original research". (Sarah777 (talk) 20:14, 22

List of massacres

In reference to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Great Irish Famine#Sarah777 restricted

Sarah7777 this a warning, please review you contributions to the Talk:List of massacres and consider if your comments are straying from criticising editors who have in you opinion a US Army bias to discussing if the article has a built in American bias to what is now a comment on "heavily biased in favour of the Establishment Anglo-American world-view. ... myopia inherent in the UK/US cultural perspective. Accepting such manifest bias is not helping achieve WP:NPV in this article." and whether some less charitable than myself might see that as "making anti-British remarks."

I think you can bring a valuable insight to the article and help balance its bias, but please assume good faith and that other editors would like to work with you in a constructive cooperative manner. --PBS 23:32, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

"This is a warning". Well is it, no less? My claim - no...observation - is that the bias is in-built and cultural. Even Wiki accepts that - if not the full extent of it. Stuff your warnings. Deal with my arguments. (Sarah777 02:08, 2 December 2007 (UTC))

Also Philip, I have been extremely polite till now, but I will ask that you keep your threats off my page. Thank you. If you cannot deal with the arguments being made then perhaps leave the article? In fact, as an irony junkie, I can't help notice that my remarks (referenced) about the Freedom of Expression in the US/UK media is greeted with a threat of censorship! You guys can be funny, y'know? (Sarah777 02:17, 2 December 2007 (UTC))

List of massacres (2) This is a warning

Sarah777 although you chose to deleted my last message on your talk page, please be aware that deleting a message is considered to be proof that you read it, (See Wikipedia:User page#Removal of comments, warnings). --PBS 10:27, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

!! Surely the fact that I cut and pasted it on YOUR page and replied to it is "proof that I read it" ? And now I shall remove it again (warning: I do not want your messages on my page) - thus providing you with further "proof". Making it simple enough even for you. "I am trying to reach a consensus with other editors" - well I can assure you that threatening me is not a good way to go about it. Maybe the word consensus changes meaning across the wide Atlantic too? (Sarah777 10:58, 2 December 2007 (UTC))

From my talk page:

"This is a warning". Well is it, no less? My claim - no...observation - is that the bias is in-built and cultural. Even Wiki accepts that - if not the full extent of it. Stuff your warnings. Deal with my arguments. (Sarah777 02:08, 2 December 2007 (UTC))

Also Philip, I have been extremely polite till now, but I will ask that you keep your threats off my page. Thank you. If you cannot deal with the arguments being made then perhaps leave the article? In fact, as an irony junkie, I can't help notice that my remarks (referenced) about the Freedom of Expression in the US/UK media is greeted with a threat of censorship! You guys can be funny, y'know? (Sarah777 02:17, 2 December 2007 (UTC))

I am not trying to deal with the argument being made on the Talk:List of massacres I am trying to reach a consensus with other editors on how we can create a page within Wikipedia policies and guidelines and to date I thought I had come up with suggestions that met you concerns. If there are any specific things that I have written that are still a concern for you I am happy to discuss it on the List of massacres talk page. --PBS 10:42, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Philip, at Sarah's request I've taken another look again at her argumentation throughout the discussion page of the List of massacres. She certainly has pointed out the cultural/political anglo-saxon bias of WP:en, a reality which any anthropologist or political analyst worth his/her salt would confirm in the wink of an eye, a reality which actually will colour about any language localisation of WP (just to stay within the WP frame, for all practical purposes).

• What you imply in «consider (...) whether some [sic] less charitable than myself might see that as "making anti-British remarks."» is rather far-fetched, I dare say, as it has no base in anything Sarah has stated.
• Are you a WP administrator, that you dish out "warnings" in such cavalier fashion on other people's talk pages? Even if this happens to be the case, don't you think that your tone when addressing her is a wee bit out of place?
• I can perfectly well understand that someone confronted with this kind of suggested untruth and nonchalant behaviour might loose their temper. And Sarah certainly has my sympathy for removing unwanted "contributions" from her talk page. I have no qualms whatsoever deleting clutter from my pages, as when some idiots recently came and accused me of suckpupping for someone in some context I'd never heard of (and even adding a banner to that effect on my user page). There is something elementary in the civilised world, which is best defined as the right to be left in peace.

Not meaning to say, mark my words, that you're an idiot or that what you've written on Sarah's page is clutter, that's for her to judge. But as you may sense, I am getting fairly tired of all those people who waste everybody else's time and energies admonishing, confronting other users, pulling out batteries of WP guidelines, administrative sanctions and whatnot, and into the bargain demanding replies and justifications from parties assumed to be guilty even before any procedings are started, instead of focusing on the contents of WP. Which I believe is what you should rather keep on doing, old chap. I don't disapprove of your contributions to the hornet's nest of Massacres.

· Michel 12:21, 3 December 2007 (UTC) · If you need to reply to this, please do not do so on my talk page. Thank you.

Evacuation of East Prussia

Hi! I noticed that you are one of the main editors contributing to this article, so I want to announce you that I've almost completely rewritten it. However, as I'm not a native speaker of English, some copyediting would be quite helpfull. Also, the lead has to be rewritten before I'll put this article under A-class review. Any help would be very welcome! Best regards, --Eurocopter tigre 15:56, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Bosnian Mujahideen article

Hi, just as in the Bosnian Genocide article I'm having a problem with The Dragon of Bosnia and Grandy Grandy who have repeatedly deleted the article Bosnian Mujahideen which I edit. It is based on the same type warped thinking, unwillingness to accept reasonable arguments coupled with relentless deleting and reverting without regard for due process as is the case in the Bosnian genocide article. I've requested Mediation as well as requested the assistance of several administrators. However, your matter of fact, logical and thorough approach to editing would be much appreciated. RegardsOsli73 (talk) 11:19, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

First, I think that you shouldn't involve other users in your edit wars. Second, the sources are not relaible per WP:RS (political forum site, broken links and mailing lists are not relaible sources).

Let's go from the beginning:

• Nettime mailing list - Post by Drazen Pantic on Tue, 9 Oct 2001 couldn't be verified as the link to the article is broken - Page Not Found. And it doesn't contain the term Bosnian Mujahideen. According to WP:Verifiability:

"Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." which isn't the case here, to quote: "Propaganda, advocacy, or recruitment of any kind, commercial, political, religious, or otherwise. Of course, an article can report objectively about such things, as long as an attempt is made to approach a neutral point of view. You might wish to go to Usenet or start a blog if you want to convince people of the merits of your favorite views."

• [www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1164071/posts This is an example of WP:NOT content] as it is a political forum, actually The Premier Conservative News Forum. On their site you can find what it is about:

"Free Republic is the premier online gathering place for independent, grass-roots conservatism on the web. We're working to roll back decades of governmental largesse, to root out political fraud and corruption, and to champion causes which further conservatism in America. And we always have fun doing it. Hoo-yah!". According to WP:NOT this shouldn't be here, I don't have to mention that the term Bosnian Mujahideen has not been used.

• This report doesn't contain the term Osli73 is using. It just contains: "foreign mujahideen fighters", and there is already article about foreign soldiers: The role of foreign fighters in the Bosnian war.

• The Hadzihasanovic verdict Osli73 quoted actually discards all his claims about foreign fighters (that they were controlled by Bosnian army, but he didn't include the rest of the quote in the article.) I will quote it here:

"However, the Trial Chamber could not establish that the Accused Hadzihasanovic or the Accused Kubura gave any orders to the Mujahedin and that those orders were implemented. Moreover, in the 3000 or so documents the Trial Chamber has analyzed, there is no combat report from the Mujahedin to the Accused, nor any other document which indicates that the Mujahedin were answerable to the Accused. However, in their combat reports, the commanders of the 3rd Corps units often complained of the undisciplined behaviour of the Mujahedin during joint combat operations. The Trial Chamber also notes that prior to 13 August 1993, the 3rd Corps war diaries hardly mention the Mujahedin."

Summary

The are already two articles about the topic with correct and precise names:

• The role of foreign fighters in the Bosnian war,
• 7th Muslim Brigade.

Osli73 said: "(b) that the The role of foreign fighters in the Bosnian war article mainly deals with their use in Serbian and Croatian propaganda[13] and is otherwise"

I think Osli73 should improve the existing articles, but creating a new article with the same topic and false terms in order to move edit war from the existing article to the new one isn't a good way for Wikipedia as it is WP:NOT content based on propaganda.

Regards. The Dragon of Bosnia (talk) 11:59, 5 December 2007 (UTC)