This is an archive of past discussions with User:Nedim Ardoğa. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
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2016
HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL
şovenizm
Merhaba benim viki hakkinda fazla bilgim yok ama buradaki şovenizmi gordukten sonra uye olmaya karar verdim ozellikle turk devletleri isimlerine "persian,perslesmis"" gibi ibareler koyuyorlar.tamam perslestigimiz ve bunlarin cogunun devlete sizdiklari dogru ama pers devleti olarak degistirmeleri insana dokunuyor.sizin bu konuda yapabileceginiz bir sey var mi kusura bakmayin eski uyelerden oldugunuz icin... Dengesizz (talk) 22:22, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
Üyeliğiniz memnuniyetle karşılıyorum.Maalesef WP de çok az sesimiz çıkıyor. Bir çok karar oy çokluğu ile alındığı için hep yetersiz kalıyoruz. Mesela Tenedos adası ismini Bozcaada'ya çevirmek için iki defa mücadele ettim ve her ikisinde de başarısızlığa uğradım. Hoşgeldiniz. WP konusunda ben de uzman sayılmam ama teredüt ettiğiniz konularda bana danışabilirsiniz. İyi günler Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 09:41, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Note: Above discussion in Turkish is about foreknowledge for a new editor.
Merhabalar...ben ustteki kullaniciyim.Sizden yardim isteyecektim,"listofiraniandynasties....." diye birsayfa acmışlar ve bu sayfada Osmanlı Devletini Farslasmis olarak gosteriyorlar.Kac defa silsemde hatta bunlarin moderatorleriyle konusmaya calissamda beni blockladilar.Bu konuda sizi bilgilendireyim dedim.Bunları Turk tarih kurumuna sikayet etmek yeterlimi sizce? HistoryofTurks (talk) 23:10, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
Benim yaptığım değişikliği de geri aldılar. Uzun boylu bir tartışma için Osmanlılar'da Fars etkisinin ne olduğu yolunda kaynak bulmak lazım. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 14:15, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Ben kansasbearla tartistim bana cambridge yi gosterdi ama oyle bi kitapta gecen kisim,bende site olarak kaynak istedim.Sonra beni blockladi.ustteki hesaptan baska 4 hesap actim,bunun disinda hep guest olarak yazdim olmadi.hepsinde ban attilar.bence bundan sonrasi Turk Tarih Kurumuna kalmis.ilginize tesekkur ederim... HistoryofTurks (talk) 16:47, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Since Dengesizz(z) has decided to violate his ban. If said banned editor wishes to speak of another editor, at least have the courage to use English, since this is English Wikipedia and where I edit.
Dengesizz did not have a discussion, but posted a sarcastic remark on LouisAragon's talk page:
"Ill talk about "...iranian dynasties..." look it was only claim.okey ghaznavid,seljuks..... were cultural persianised but ottomans never using persian.please dont add this. Dengesizzz (talk) 17:24, 12 June 2016 (UTC)"
My response:
"*"The Ottomans patronized Persian literature for five and a half centuries.[...] Unlike Iran they[Ottomans] gradually shed some of their Persianate qualities: they were the first of the gunpowder empires to give up Persian as the court language, using instead Turkish - that is, the vernacular of the western Turks..." -- Canfield, Turko-Persia in Historical Perspective, page 19."
His pedantic response was a continuation of his own "lack of knowledge"
"Academic???Which universty?When?Tehran universty or other Iranian universty?can you give to Oxford referance?i can give this and believe me only "Bogazici" is better than all iranian universities.AND you was block me.Its mynew account.... Dengesizzz (talk) 18:09, 12 June 2016 (UTC)"
Not sure what the "Tehran university", "Iranian university" or ""Bogazici" is better than all iranian universities" nonsense was supposed to mean. It sounds like this person thinks I am located in Iran. Undoubtedly they failed geography.
As for List of Iranian dynasties and countries, I have edited it once.
FYI, what Dengesizz(z) has done here is canvassed you to do their editing. Which is disruptive editing. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:21, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Hey it seems a discussion is going on in my personal page. Well I haven't searched the history of the article yet but I think there is a misunderstanding. Ottomans never spoke Persian. But in poetry they used an artificial language with extensive borrowings from Arabic and Persian. (This language was not used in speech and was quite unintelligible for most of the population.) The style of the poetry also resembled that of Persian. But other than that there was no Persian influence on Ottoman culture. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 18:45, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
No offense, but I found these sources:
"The style of the poetry also resembled that of Persian. But other than that there was no Persian influence on Ottoman culture."
Ottoman Turkish: Written language and Scribal Practice, 13th to 20th Centuries, Linda T. Darling, Literacy in the Persianate World:Writing and the Social Order, ed. Brian Spooner and William L. Hanaway, page 171, "In contrast, the interesting thing about Ottoman written culture is that although Ottoman Turkish was intimately linked with Persian throughout its existence, although Ottoman scribes based their organization and culture on that of Persian scribes, and although Persian literature and documents formed the most important models for those of the Ottomans, the Ottoman written language was not at all stable or unchanging."
M. Sukru Hanioglu, A Brief History of the Late Ottoman Empire, page 35, "In a way, Ottoman resembled Latin as used in medieval or early modern Europe. It supplanted Persian, which had served as the literary language of the cultured upper classes during the first three centuries of the empire."
"The style of the poetry also resembled that of Persian."
Bertold Spuler, Persian Historiography & Geography, page 68-69, "However, Persian maintained its position also during the early Ottoman period in the composition of histories, and even Sultan Salim I(r.1512-20), a bitter enemy of Iran and the Shi'ites, wrote poetry in Persian."
Sounds like it was Persian. Also, Idris Bidlisi's "Hasht Bihist" or "Seven Paradises", requested by Sultan Bayazid II, which covers the first eight Ottoman rulers was written in Persian(Spuler, page 69). --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:01, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Well Except for a few educated people Ottomans didn't know Persian (Farisi). However Persian was the lingua franca of the Islamic World. But this does not mean that the Ottomans were a Persianate sociaty. Kepler wrote Harmonices Mundi and Isaac Newton wrote Principia Mathematica, two works of upmost importance. Do you think British Empire or Holy Roman Empire were Latinized societies? Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 07:21, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
See, that's just it. It does not matter what I think, believe or know, it only matters what reliable secondary sources state. AND, if I can find this information, you can bet others can find this information.
As for Kepler and Newton, Latin was the recognized language for science.(Communication: Diversity and Change, ed. Marlis Hellinger, Anne Pauwels, page 539.) --Kansas Bear (talk) 14:36, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
Sources ? You're asking me an impossible thing. There are hundreds of sources about Ottomans. One or two authors may assert that the Ottomans were Persinate. This assertion is not a scientifically proven fact; it is only an opinion of the author. But what about the others ? Usually people assert something but they don't assert something that doesn't exist. (You can read somewhere that Americas were discovered by Egyptians. But probably you can't find a source which disclaims this assertion) Unless the majority of the sources agree of Persianate Ottomans this asserion is only an opinion. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 07:31, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
"You're asking me an impossible thing."
I have not asked for anything. Sources or otherwise.
"You can read somewhere that Americas were discovered by Egyptians."
Per Wikipedia:Reliable sources, "The word "source" when citing sources on Wikipedia has three related meanings:1)The piece of work itself (the article, book),2)The creator of the work (the writer, journalist), 3)The publisher of the work (for example, Random House or Cambridge University Press). Any of the three can affect reliability. Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both."
"and the attraction of this renaissance of Persian culture under Turkish political hegemony strongly influenced the Ottoman court, with echoes of that influence felt up to the 19th century. --The Encyclopaedia of Islam, Vol. VIII, page 211.
"Throughout the 16th century, then, Ottoman literature and culture was still considerably influenced by the Turco-Persian literature flourishing in the courts of Khurasan and Samarkand, while themes from everyday life inevitably crept into them as well; furthermore, Ottoman society, was beginning to be influenced by the West, without being fully aware of it." -- The Encyclopaedia of Islam, Vol VIII, page 214, Gonul Alpay Tekin.
Please don't try to impose Persinate Ottomans. It is only an opinion. Unlike Seljuks, Ottomans were never Persianated. The people followed their traditional life styles which was clearly non Persian and most of the viziers who were from Balkan countries contributed only their own culture. In administration there were almost no Persian born people because of sharp sect differences. Persian language was only a foreign language and was taught in the schools (medrese) as a foreign language . But because of high illiteracy rate only few people knew Persian. Persian was used only as a lingua franca. Even in poetry which is influenced by the Persian literature, Persian was not used. (Instead Divan language, an artificial language created by the mixture of all languages was used. But as I wrote before, it was not used in speach) How can Ottomans be called Parsinate just because of poetry style (or maybe miniature tradition which had a negligible effect in an Islamic society) ? Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 08:10, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
Difference between the Turkish H and the Arabic Kh in Ottoman officials name
I noticed while reading a book, the first governor of Podolia and former governor of Silistra's name is Khalil in one book and Halil in another book, I believe the name is pronounced Khalil coming from the meaning "Friend" also used towards Ibrahim as "Friend of Allah" the same thing occurs with Hayreddin Pasha, which is clearly Khayr ad-Din. Is the H pronounced as Kh Alexis Ivanov (talk) 22:25, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
The h in Halil is like h in hard or harbor. I think some people confuse the pronunciation of the same name in Turkish and in Arabic (which are not the same). Cheers. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 09:21, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Sorry for the late late reply, I will postpone this H and Kh discussion for another time, in the mean time, while studying Crimean Khanate and Ottoman Empire around the Moldavia, Wallachia, Cossack Ukriane and Russia (Interesting history, I'm doing some infoboxes) I would like to ask you some questions. If you don't mind, since of course you are the leading editor in Ottoman articles if I'm not mistaken, and I believe you maybe far more equipped with Turkish sources that may go the distance as oppose English sources. So bear with me Alexis Ivanov (talk) 20:30, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
I have solved this mystery. There is a book I can't wait to get my hands on that explains Ottoman Turkish, it is very reliable source published by routledge An Introduction to Literary Ottoman, it seems that the Arabic and Persian word Persian: خ is pronounced as "Kh" or as they say Voiceless velar fricative but in the Ottoman-Turkish language it is pronounced as simply as H. The Ottoman names of Halil and Hayreddin now makes sense. This book seems excellent in expanding the Ottoman Turkish article in the near future Alexis Ivanov (talk) 19:52, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Questions from Alexis
While reading about the Russo-Turkish War (1676–81), I noticed Brian L. Davies (Professor of History, and author of Warfare, State and Society on the Black Sea Steppe, 1500-1700) calling Ibrahim "Shaitan" Pasha, muhafız pasha of Ochakiv c.1677 he was about to participate in the Russo-Turkish War (1676–81) , according to Encyclopedia of Ottoman, that is a secondary title meaning defender pasha instated after 1590s. I hope you can shed some light into it.
While researching and reading about Moldavia and it's relationship with Ottoman Empire, I realized one campaign of the Ottoman Empire was missing from Wikipedia, the Moldavian Expedition or Campaign of 1538, the Turkish Wikipedia has it, the Romanian Wikipedia doesn't. Boğdan Seferi. I will like to create the infobox (something I love to do) in the coming days. What do you think a Wikipedia page for it.
Right now I'm doing some infobox work on the Battle of Khotyn in 1621 between Poland and Ottoman Empire. I need some confirmation from you on the participants of the battle. Did the Grand Vizier Ohrili Hüseyin Pasha really die during the battle, Did Osman II really gave the Grand Viziership to Dilaver Pasha, Beylerbey of Diyarbekir who was a Vizier but never sat in the Imperial Council, Did Karakaş Mehmet PaşaBeylerbey of the the Buda Eyalet die during the battle? Did Hussein PashaBeylerbey of Silistra during the battle, who is Mustafa pashaBeylerbey of Baghdad Eyalet. Also what are the names of the Moldavian and Wallachian Voivodes who were ordered by the Padishah to come and participate in the battles, someone at the Ukranian Wikipedia has the "An Armeno-Kipchak Chronicle on the Polish-Turkish Wars in 1620-1621" an 1968 book, that I will try and get my hands on, very DETAILED participants of the battle. Just saying check on some Turkish sources for me, if these things are accurate, it will take days for me to get this book.
Have you ever read the book called An Historical Geography of the Ottoman Empire: From Earliest Times to the End of the Sixteenth CenturyAlexis Ivanov (talk) 20:30, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
Most of the Ottoman articles were already created before I got interested in WP: But presently I am one of the few Turkish contributors of the project. I'll try to answer your questions.
İbrahim Pasha (nicknamed şeytan, the devil) was a governor of various forts during the piece times (Muhafız Pasha means defender of a fort) But he was appointed as the serdar (high commander of the army) during the unsuccessful siege of Chyhyryn. After the failure he returned to his former posts which were inferior to that of a serdar.
Grand vizier Ohrili Hüseyin Pasha was present during the campaign of 1621. However he was dismmissed from his post because of his reluctance to support another vizier during a clash. The next grand vizier was Dilaver Pasha But Hüseyin Pasha didn't die during the campaign. He was later killed in İstanbul by the revolters during the decrowning of Osman II in 1622. As for the others, I am afraid I don't have any source on them. To be sure there was a Hüseyin Pasha (beylerbey of Silistra) who fought in Khotin. But this event was in 1673. Probably other two names were also from 1673 event.
Nedim thank you for your response, I'm still evaluating your response, so I will be back again. In the mean time I am in a very unique position of acquiring certain books, as I asked you about "An Historical Geography of the Ottoman Empire: From Earliest Times to the End of the Sixteenth Century" I noticed you haven't read the book, I assume you have seen people reference it on Wikipedia. Especially in Ottoman eyalets page, well I have aquired this book and it is in my hand for some limited time, I will take some pictures in good condition because it is one of the greatest Atlases of the Ottoman Empire I have ever seen, you will love it, bad news this book ends in 16th century (1609 C.E. to be precise) and as you know Ottoman expanded upto the end of 17th century, the author of this book died (rest his soul) his wife published the book If I recall correctly in Brill. I will contact you again once I have acquired some pictures ( google books the maps are omitted), I think you will love it, also this book is out of print. You can only get your hands on a copy only from certain institution or a book owner. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 17:00, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
For post 1609 Ottoman province, I will try and acquire Historical Atlas of Central Europe: Revised and Expanded Edition by Paul Robert Magocsi, an expert in this area of geography plus Ukraine. This book is published by University of Washington Press and they have other books of Eastern/some Central Europeans geographical books. The bad news about this atlas by Magosci is that you only have Europeans provinces of Ottoman Empire, not Asian, but it is still good. We also get the Sanjaks. I am also wondering what is the contribution of Turkish historians on Ottoman vassals, like the Republic of Ragusa, Cossack Hetmanate, Moldavia and the rest? Alexis Ivanov (talk) 19:42, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
I have asked for permission to order the book from someplace, they may say yes or no, I will be back once I have confrmation, it may take a while, but this Armenian-Kipchak Chronicle has all information on the war and who was there. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 22:40, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
New message
Sayın Nedim Ardoğa,
Bir konuda araştırma yaparken, bir şekilde bu sayfanıza kadar gelip katkılarınızı ve üzücü yorumunuzu biraz önce görmem üzere, WP’ye biraz önce üyelik yaptım ve size yazıyorum.
Özellikle Dil, Tarih, Coğrafya, Etnoloji, Entimoloji ve ilgili konular göz önüne alınırsa, WP, iki bin yıl önce, Roma İmparatorluğunun Avrupa ve istilasi altındaki diğer coğrafyaların toplumlarını romalılaştırmasının, bugün küresel olarak uygulaması gibi görünmekte. Zira WP’da verilen bir bilgi doğruluğundan ziyade, çoğunluğu sağladığı için rahatlıkla, çoğunluğun yalnış bilgisi veya tercihleri doğrultusunda gerçeğe aykırı olarak verilebilme durumunda. Bunun örneklerini özellikle Türk Dili ve Tarihi konuları ile ilgili bir takım verilen bilgilerde zaman zaman görüyoruz. Sonuç, mutlak doğrunun yerine çoğunluğun gücünün baskın olduğu bir “Roma arenası” düzeni ile işe gelinmeyenin sesinin küresel çapta susturulması olacaktır ve olmaktadır.
Yine de verdiğiniz emek ve Türk’ü savunduğunuz için sizi kutlarım.
Selamlarımla,
Ali Erden Sızgek
Sayın Sizgek, "yine de" girişi ile başlayan cümlenizde bir eleştiri var. Bu eleştirinin sebebini anlayamadım. WP de elimden geleni yapıyor ve maalesef hiç bir desatek bulamıyorum. Daha geçen hafta "Reforms in the Ottoman Empire" başlıklı çok emek verdiğim bir sayfa silindi. Daha önce Tenedos adası ismini Bozcaada yapmak için verdiğim mücadele desteksizlik yüzünden başarısızlığa uğradı. 1915 konusuna hiç girmeyelim. Ama kusuru kimsede aramayalım. WP demokratik bir ortam; tercihler katılımcıların tercihleri. İşin doğrusu bizim katılımcılarımız tartışmalara katılmıyor, katılanı da desteksiz bırakıyorlar. Dilerim sizin olumlu katkılarınız olur. (Şayet WP usullerine yabancı iseniz yardımcı olmağa çalışırım.)
Sorry to come in your discussion Nedim, but the reality is if 5 Greeks or Armenians can come in with lies it will trump 1 Turkish editor's truth. Wikipedia is number's game. You just have to try your best to follow the Guidelines, I see the Tendos article, and to be honest it is ridiculous how it has a Greek name. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 22:38, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
Upon looking on the latest discussion of request to move, it seems there were so many supports overwhelming the Greek editors headed by (Athenean), on what basis can there be no-Consensus.??? Alexis Ivanov (talk) 22:43, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
Murad II
Did Murad II had a campaign in 1438 against Transylvania, I can't find enough information, I know while reading that he had Vlad Tepes in his army. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 22:38, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
Yes that's true. In 1432, a group of Ottoman raiders were defeated by Maygars. Murat II after returning from his campaign in Anatolia commissioned Ali Of Evranos to make a scouting operation in Transilvania. Ali reported that it was possible to strike Timişoara country and consequantly Murat attacked Timişoara with the guidance of Vlad II Dracul. Durad Brankovic (of Serbia) was also with him. Although the army captured a number of forts the Maygars failed to show up in the battle front. Towards the winter Murat returned to Edirne. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 08:53, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the info, there is something that is actually HURTING MY BRAIN, the Polish–Ottoman War (1485–1503), it makes no sense to me, Moldavians (supposedly Ottoman vassals) attacked Ottoman forces!!!!!!, then attacked Poland or should I say defended against Polish forces!!!! who were going to Kilia and Akkerman (Both Ottoman fortress from 1484). The Moldavians have some attitude to be honestly. They got straighten up in 1538 because of Suleyman. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 09:13, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
Mehmed II ordered his Vassal Moldavia to lend in military support in 1462 (I have reliable source) also Romanian Wikipedia (English translation) gives the date June 22 1462 (no citation but I trust it, but will not use the date as a source), which is the siege of Chilia/Kilia/Killia that had Hungarian-Wallachian garrison, so how can there be war, I was wondering was Mehmed II there in the Danube river at that time?????? Can you check the date if it was indeed June 22 1462
Also the war didn't end in 1476, it actually ended in 1486 (I have reliable source stating that), how can a war end when there was clearly Ottoman-Moldavian battles and sieges like the famous 1484 Ottoman conquest of Kilia and Akkerman.?
The main problem is this in 1480-81 Moldavia signed a treaty and they have to pay the Harac DOUBLE!!!!! in 1479. This is after Mehmed II got tired of them and defeated them in 1476
I propose the date of Moldavian-Ottoman Wars as (1473-1479 and 1484-1486) or just 1473-1486 ?
Also can you look at the Campaignbox and tell me what you think, I feel like getting rid of Crusade of Varna, it was a Moldavian-Ottoman battle YES but Moldavia was lending support to the Christian powers at that time. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 03:15, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
As you may have seen in the history, I haven't started or contributed to the article in question.As far as I can understand, the war had two phases. In 1476 Mehmet after storming Moldovia, returned home without any serious combat, because Michael hadn't shown up. Although there was no peace treaty the war effectively ended. The next phase was in 1484 when Mehmet [Bayezid II] captured Kiliya and Akkirman. Thus you can either call these events as "two different wars" or combine the two under a single heading. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 09:14, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
I think there was a peace treay but the correct word is ahdname, that Mehmed II granted Stephen in 1480-81, I can provide you with the source, if you want to take a look at it. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 04:14, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
No article about
Johann Rudolf Rengger (1795-1832) on English Wikipedia... (but we see that article in German, Russian and in Spanish.) / No article about Ramona-Ann Gale / No article about Bertha Morris Parker (1890-1980) we see that article on Croatian Wikipedia. / No article about Vladimir Stchepinsky / No article about Ron Carter, the author of The Coming Of Civilization / To whom will I say these things? They are deleting! Please help me... Böri (talk) 10:02, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
Thank you. They wrote books about history, geology, archaeology, paleontology, etc. I don't know much about their lives... For example, Croatian Wikipedia has an article about Bertha Morris Parker and the names of her books in English. Böri (talk) 19:15, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
"It is currently agreed that the caliphate "disappeared" for two-and-a-half centuries, before being revived with the Treaty of Küçük Kaynarca"
Actually it never disappeared, it was used and Grand Vizier Lutfi Pasha presented the argument in his book on why Suleyman the non-Qurashi was actually rightfully the Caliph, I will try to acquire this book, can you believe a book written by a Grand Vizier during Sulayman's time is being sold. The Caliphate claim was used as far as 18th century, even by Murad III. Do you think it is an under-statement to say disappeared? Alexis Ivanov (talk) 20:23, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Well after the Abbasids, many Muslim countries claimed to house a caliph. When Selim I annexed Egypt he took over the title from a caliph living in Egypt. But he never used the title. Instead he used the title "protector of two holy cities" (Mecca and Medina). Probably it was Lütfi Pasha who proposed using the title caliph in 1550s. I don't think that the usage of the title had anything to do with the treaty of 1774.Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 21:35, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Those Muslim countries claim are very weak, I know the Moroccans are on top of the list especially Saadi dynasty, but Sulayman Qanuni trolled them by calling them head of Arab tribes and not Caliph in a letter. Also did the last Abbasid Caliph die in Istanbul? Was he in Prison? Selim made the right choice of eliminating him. Since Egypt started to experience a power vacuum. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 22:33, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
No article about Sarcophagus of the Mourning Women
@Böri: Your edits are to a disambiguation page. A disambiguation page is a guide to articles in Wikipedia. If there is no article to link to, then an entry does not belong in a disambiguation page. If Strato I is mentioned in a Wikipedia article to which you can link, then you can add him to the disambiguation page. Doing so repeatedly without an article to link to is disruptive editing. PamD12:57, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
In WP there are both the blue and the red links. Red links indicate that an article which is notable and linkable is still missing. In a way red link notifies other editors about a missing article. That's why WP uses the red link (see: WP:Red link) It reads "It is useful in editing article text to create a red link to indicate that a page will be created soon or that an article should be created for the topic because the subject is notable and verifiable" I know this applies to normal pages. But what is wrong to use a red link in a disambiguation page ? Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 14:51, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
The purpose of a disambiguation page is to help readers find pages, not to help editors get ideas for future pages (note that the quote above specifies "in article text" - so does not include disambiguation pages). So a redlink on its own shouldn't be in a dab page; a redlink with an associated blue link for an article where the topic is mentioned is fine under WP:DABMENTION. But what Böri is adding has no links at all. PamD18:00, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
Because there were other kings whose names were also Strato. OK, now I put a redlink for Abdashtart. Abdashtart was the Phoenician name of the same king, Strato I of Sidon. Böri (talk) 08:04, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
But there still needs to be a blue link to lead the reader to an existing article: that's the point of disambiguation pages. PamD08:53, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
Yes, we are still deleting entries which have no place on the disambiguation page. Please create an article for this king, with proper sources, and then make a link to it from the dab page. PamD09:48, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
Hallo Nedim, I asked to look at the article, because of the paragraph which reports an interview to an "alleged descendant" of Mahidevran. You are an experienced user, so you know about WP:RS. Now, an interview to someone who pretends to descend from someone who is dead since almost 500 years cannot be considered a priori as a reliable source. At its best, it is part of that discipline which is called memorialistic, which is present in each country, and whose products have to be handled with a lot of care. Usually professional historians are the ones who should study this material and decide whether it is worth of being considered as part of a historical research or not. Here on wp, in absence of historians, is the editor inserting that material that should explain to the others why this interview is reliable, not the others that - according to the ip who reinserted it - should show that it is "faked", above all if the edit has been already removed several times by more than one editor, as it was the case. I hope that now it is clear for you why I removed (again) the mention of this interview. If that material has to be reinserted, please explain its reliability. otherwise there is the reliable sources noticeboard where one can ask for an opinion. Best, Alex2006 (talk) 17:24, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
The origins of the harem women are mostly obscure. There are conflicting claims. I don’t know which is correct. But all claims can be presented with the claimants. If there are five conflicting origins of course at least four of them must be wrong. It's up to reader to choose which seems to be more reliable. That is what I’m doing. This is perfectly admissible in WP. But Instead of discussing and seeking for a comprimise, you ask an admin to protect the article. (By the way you heve also complained of the soap opera Muhteşem Yüzyıl. But see the the history of the page; I started the article long before the soap opera and the article has nothing to dıo with the soap opera.) Your conduct is most disgraceful. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 18:52, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
@Nedim Ardoğa I agree. The interview is rather not cited as a reference, IN FACT, the interview is not cited AT ALL. None of the article's content has been changed as per the interview's content. Only the presence of that interview (it's existence) is mentioned in the article (at no point emphasizing that the information is correct) because there's no policy violation in that. @Alex2006 Just for your hideous accusation, I am from Iran and living in Japan as a lecturer since 7 years, I have nothing to do with Turkish soaps but Mughal Sultanate and Ottoman Sultanate and their women is my favorite subject; which bought me to Mahidevran Gulbahar. Worldandhistory (talk) 19:52, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
In my sources I couldn't find anything about Suleyman's wife. To be sure there is a Seljuk Khatun in Seljuk history; but she lived about two centuries after Suleyman. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 09:39, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
My apologies for dragging this out on Nedim's talk page. I do have that book and page 208 is not in Book VI, but Book VII and makes no mention of Suleyman, however, in Book VI on page 179 it states, "Toutouses was full of arrogance after the killing of Emir Solymas, his own son-in-law..."
There is no mention of Suleyman's wife. This is one of many issues I have with MedLands. If I were you Alexis, I would avoid MedLands like the plague. --Kansas Bear (talk) 04:38, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
Hi dear. I have realized that you moved Mahidevran's page. It would be good if you moved the talk page as well. Cause in my mobile I see that it's still titled Mahidevran Hatun. Also, why Mahidevran Gülbahar? Gülbahar was one of her nicknames that she was known by. I think only Mahidevran was enough. Don't you agree with me? Keivan.fTalk 22:20, 1 April 2016 (UTC) Keivan.fTalk22:20, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
Too many changes in Mahidevran's page. Especially her origin and royal title are under heated discussion. The title has already been moved sevaral times. Thus let's wait till the discussion ends. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 08:34, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
Please move back Osman II's page to its previous title. A new comer has just changed the page's name to Osman the Young. We can't name all of Ottoman sultans' pages based on their nicknames like Ahmes Bahtı, Selim the Grim, Selim the Sot, etc. Suleiman the Magnificent and Mehmed the Conqueror are exceptions. Please move the page's name back to its previous title cause without a computer it seems that I'm unable to move it myself. Keivan.fTalk 00:04, 2 April 2016 (UTC) Keivan.fTalk00:04, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
First of all, thanks for your attention. About Mahidevran's page, I should say thag I'm tired of the discussions. But I just wanted to mention that the title of the talk page and article must be the same. Also, is it possible for you to move Mahfiruz to Mahfiruz Hatice Sultan? I don't know why some users just move the pages without any discussion. I would do it myself if I had access to a laptop but it seems that with a mobile I'm unable to move WP articles. Thanks a lot. Keivan.fTalk 10:17, 2 April 2016 (UTC) Keivan.fTalk10:17, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
With regard to [1], please use an edit summary when undoing an edit in the future, esp. an almost purely technical edit such as a disambiguation. It's hard for others to guess what exactly you found objectionable. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:16, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
Well when I ’d reverted your edit the title of the article was Ali Pasha. (14th of May). Thus it was a legtimate revert and you’re not in the position to criticize my action. It was then you moved the title to Ali Pasha of Ionia. (15th of May). Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 09:50, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
I had already explained at the relevant Talk page what was going on. But regardless, it was still a tiny, good-faith change that had no obvious negative effect on readers. It's courteous to provide a modicum of an explanation for an undo, please remember to do so in the future. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 17:12, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
File:BC 339KingAteasScythiaAr.gif listed for discussion
Dear Nedim, I received this notification, and want to ask you to try to save this file, and possibly to move to Common. File is precious because of its legend Atails (for Greek Ateas), a father of the country. There were repeated catfights to delete it from the article Scythians and other Scythian Articles, and apparently it was finally deleted from the article. That is stupid, because the coin and its photos are widely available besides the WP. BTW, congrats on the latest genetic analysis of the Kurgan folks, and confirmation that they were R1b. It is a really big deal. Thank you, Barefact (talk) 18:35, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
Dear Nedim, I have added Turkic etymology to Coal, but have problems putting references in a right format. Would you please correct the formatting and anything else that you may see, or direct me to a proper editor for help. Barefact (talk) 18:16, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
Dear Nedim, That seems unconscionable, the etymology stayed put forever till it was IE, but adding Turkic etymology made it deletable. Are we going to delete all etymologies from the WP and relegate them to wiktionary? Starting with Coal? Seems like a culture war vandalism. BTW, I appreciate your help with formatting. Thank you, Barefact (talk) 00:10, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
Adnan_Menderes_Boulevard
Hey! Why did you revert my change to Adnan_Menderes_Boulevard? The coordinates were totally off - they point in the Mediterranean Sea! I added correct coordinates to Wikidata, which is correctly linked to Wikipedia. You can copy those from Wikidata to Wikipedia if you really want, but better not keep the wrong ones. IonutBizau (talk) 15:12, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
I see, so you undid my revision but also corrected the coordinates at the same time, awesome! I thought you just undid, sorry. IonutBizau (talk) 07:11, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
English Wikipedia of his article and and the List of Ottoman Grand Viziers puts him as an Albanian !!!!! The source of both of them are from a Turkish source I can't verify but I have confidence that he is in fact Bosnian and upon checking the Turkish Wikipedia, the information is actually correct and incredibly accurate. I got interested after reading about the Shah Quli rebellion, and early Safavid-Ottoman contacts. He died in the battle and checking him on a book called "The Nature of the Early Ottoman State" he is stated as in page 122 "Christian Eunuch: Bosnia: Family of Minor Nobility Ostoya from the village of Drozgometva" The word Ostoya is bothering me I can't pin it down I think it is also spelled as Ostoja. In page 127 he is stated as "Bosnian-born Hadım (eunuch) ʿAli Pasşa (son of Radošin Ostoya, who was a minor aristocrat from the village of Drozgometva)," The source of the author is 30. M. Tayyib Okiç, “Hadım (ʿAtik) Ali Paşa Kimdir?” in Necati Lugal Armaǧanı (Ankara: Türk Tarih Kurumu, 1968), pp. 501–515, see pp. 513–514). I would like your opinion on the matter. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 19:42, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
Excuse me for the delay. I was engaged in a long discussion. The article Hadim Ali Pasha had been created by now-retired editor. You're probably right. I'll reply you soon. Cheers. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 09:14, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
Well I checked Islam Encyclopaedia. You're right. He's from Bosnia Herzegovina. I changed the first sentence in the section "Life". Cheers. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 13:49, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
Another question, I got very interested in understanding early Ottoman sultans governorship, where Princes where assigned as prince-governor in certain anatolian regions. Here is the problem I am having, Selim wanted or forced his father to make him governor of Smederevo in the Europe in 1511, the problem is, this is a Sanjak not an Eyalet. So what exactly was he ? A Sanjakbey? Alexis Ivanov (talk) 21:00, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
Up to Ahmet I, all princes were assigned as sanjak-bey.(Ahmet was too young when he was enthorned.) He ended the sanjak bey practice (along with brother executions.) As to eyalets, no; the princes were sanjak beys. The governors of the eyalets were beylerbeys. As for Selim, all he wanted was a sanjak closer to İstanbul. Actually the custom was limited to Anatolia and Selim hoped a closer sanjak in Anatolia. But Smederova was not in Anatolia and it was too far from the capital. So Selim was not satisfied with the offer. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 08:10, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
So I have made a mistake, actually this makes more sense, because I was thinking how can young boy be beylerbey. So was Selim Sanjackbey of Trabzon???? Also another question how often do Christian Ottoman partake in Ottoman army from their own consent? I was reading about a story of a Christian who was part of Ottoman army from his own consent, I do not understand why he did that but he went to the market to fix his bow and had an argument with the bowmaker about Jesus Christ, of course the Muslim man says Jesus was not divine anyway a fight happened in the market after the Christian man insults Prophet Muhammad. The date here is during the reign of Koca Mehmed Nizamüddin Pasha (1429-1438), so why would a Christian man go and fight against other Christians, what troops did he station with in your opinion ? Alexis Ivanov (talk) 21:00, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
Selim I and all other princes who were old enough (up to Ahmet I's reign) were sanjak beys. There were no beylerbey-princes. Even in sanjaks they were accompanied by elder statemen called lala. As for the Christians, yes for the sake of politics and loot there were interesting alliances . For example in the battle of Ankara (1402) Turkmen soldiers switched side and left the Ottoman sultan Bayezit I. But the Serbian king Stefan Lazarević was loyal to the sultan. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 07:08, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the information now I understand better how Prince-Governors ruled, actually it makes sense now. So Selim 1 was Prince-Governor of Trebizond Sanjak. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 17:48, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
Çilingoz Nature Park
Hi Nedim Ardoğa! I see that you've moved Çilingoz to Çilingöz. The version I've created is fully compatible with the sources in the reference list in the article. Even almost everything at Google search proves this. Where do you get your name "Çilingöz" from? CeeGee21:38, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
Excuse me. I usuallly don't move the titles. But in this case I briefly serached several pages and I thought "O" was a mistake. (like [2])After your warning however, I extended research and I found sources equally in O and Ö. If you're certain in O please revert it Cheers. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 07:02, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
Link to Çatalca Kaymakamlığı officially names it "Çilingoz". I'm very sure that the article's initial title was correct. I kindly request you to revert all the modifications you made in this regard. Cheers. CeeGee07:38, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
Hi again! I don't want to think that you ignore my above posting. You were so fast when changing it. Please do it soon because ı intend to expand it further for DYK purposes. CeeGee19:16, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
Well CeeGee I used to think that you are a cooperative Wiki pall. But I don't understand your conduct in this issue. What does kıvırtmak mean ? Please don't use slang and try to be a bit more polite. I already wrote that if you're certain in "o" you can move the title. Why are you asking me ? You don't have to be angry with me just because I made a change. Remember I very seldom make changes (except in cases of missspelling) But you always make changes without ever consulting me. So far I never complainted of your changes. I wish you a productive and peacefull editting. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 19:09, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
I made very clear that it is an "o" and not an "ö". And, I kindly asked you to clean up your edits, because I feel myself not respınsible for that, and I'm very busy with other editings. What have you done was simply ignoring. I told you that I was about to expand that article. It is not about making a mistake. We all make mistakes. The issue is to comply with it. Yes, I copyedit everywhere when I see it is needed, and I will continue to do so. Concerning articles you created, I always improved them, and not downgraded. As soon as you create an article it is wiki common. CeeGee19:47, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
Battle of Keresztes
Merhaba,sizi çok rahatsız ettim ama bu makale ile ilgili yardım isteyecektim.bir kullanıcı(bayramovic) haçlıların sayısını değiştirdi üstelik kaynagın hala aynı kalmasına rağmen daha sonra başka bir kullanıcı ppblocker ekledi.Normalde 140 ila 200 bin yazarken simdi neredeyse çeyreğe indirmişler,Yapabileceğiniz bir şey var mı? NoScopeRage (talk) 00:10, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
I am doing some research on early Safavid pre-Ismail I era, I noticed a mistake in the Azeri Wikipedia and Turkish Wikipedia article of Sultan Yaqub son of Uzun Hasan, that his mother is Despina Khatun, which I believe is wrong, no mention in the Persian Wikipedia or Russian Wikipedia, also note I speak none of the language. I would love to see what you think, Uzun Hasan 100% has another wife that bore him Uğurlu Məhəmməd bəy/Uğurlu Mehmet Bey, Sultan Yaqub/Sultan Yakup and Yusuf Bey Bayandur Alexis Ivanov (talk) 15:02, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
I don't have a source on Sultan Yakup, but according general history of Turkey by Sevim and Yücel, Sultan Halil (Yakup's brother) sent his mother Selçuk Begüm to Yakup who was than the commander of Diyarbakır. Although this proves nothing, in the middle ages it was customary to send mothers to their own sons. Thus Yakup's mother was probably Selçuk Begüm.Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 13:27, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for this valuable information, it makes more sense now, I think we can assume Halil and Yakup have same mother to some extent. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 23:45, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
Alpu railway station
Hello Mr. Ardoğa,
You have recently moved the Alpu railway station page to Alpu Railway Station. Most of Wikipedia's articles on railway stations have them written in the lower case, rather than the R and S in capital as you have done. I will request a move of the page name back to the original title in order to fit in with other Turkish railway station titles (all written in XXXX railway station format).
Well capital or small case is not really a big problem. But I checked other similar articles. Although there are examples of both small case and capital, most tend to be capital. That’s why I moved the title. But ıf you’re not satisfied you’re welcome to move it back. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 13:34, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
One editor who reviewed GAN of Skanderbeg stated that article on Skanderbeg is too long and that some of its "content should be moved to sub pages" (diff). Based on this recommendation I started two articles:
I stumbled upon a documentary done professionally by Al-Jazeera, about a Kofta named after Davud Pasha (governor of Egypt), there is no English page for that specific Kofta, but according to what they are saying (no historical sources), Davud Pasha was eating this every day. Also one of the persons in the interview is sitting next to the Camii/Jami Davud Pasha, only picture I can find which should be a good addition to his article is this pictureAlexis Ivanov (talk) 08:41, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.
Zamanında aynı sorunu ben de yaşadım. (mesela Talk:Seljuk_Empire/Archive_1#Turkish origin) Selçuklular kısa zamanda İran kültürüne adapte olmuşlardı. Bu yüzden İranlılar Büyük Selçuklu devletini bir İran devleti sayarlar. Tabii bizim de görüşümüzü anlatmamız gerek ama Wikipedia'da bu konularla ilgili pek az Türk yazar var. Anlaşmazlıklar oylama ile çözüldüğünden, genellikle görüşümüz kabul edilmiyor. Çözüm Türk editör sayısını artırmakta.Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 13:50, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
Note: Above discussion in Turkish is about the article titles involving the Great Seljuk Empire.
Evet dediğiniz doğru selçuklular pers kültürüne adopte olmuşlardır.ama onlar asimile olmamışlardır.Osmanlılar-Selçuklular-Timurlular-ilhanlılar-gazneliler bu devletlerin hepsinde aynı olay olmuştur.pers kültürü çok zengin olduğu ve onların kültürü zayıf olduğu için etkilenmişlerdir.ama onların hiçbir asimile olmamışlardır.asimile olmak ile adapte olmak arasında dağlar kadar fark var.şöyle deseler doğru-bu devletler pers kültürüne ve diline adapte oldular.bu doğrudur.ama direk olarak persleştiğini söylüyorlar.bunu söyleyince çok çok yanlış bir
anlam çıkıyor ortaya.Onlar irana hakim olmuş bütün devletleri pers devleti olarak görüyorlar.ben iki haftadır. selçuklu devleti-hanedanı-sultanları konusuyla uğraşıyorum.fasça adı silmiyorum.tek yaptığım şey Türkçe adı eklemek.ama engelliyorlar.Oğuz Türkçesinin ölü bir dil olduğunu modern Türkçenin bu dille alakası olmadığı gibi saçma sapan şeyler söylüyorlar.bu konuda elimizden bir şey gelmezmi.göz göre göre fars milliyetçiliği yapıyorlar.Türkleri yok sayaraktan buda insanın zoruna gidiyor.modern Türkçenin Selçukluyla alakası olmadığını söylüyor.gerçekten gülünç bir durum.--Osman bey (talk) 14:42, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
I'm very interested in this discussion and I understand where you coming at Nedim. I have been doing some reading on Central Asia Turkic tribes. I also have a high interest in the Great Seljuk Empire Alexis Ivanov (talk) 22:13, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
@Nedim Ardoğa: I'm serious when I say this is lost cause, this user has no idea what Mongols are, and when they attacked and brought people to the Iranian lands, and now he is quoting things out of context and has no clue, he believes, that Toghril and Chaghri came from Jand next to the Syr Darya don't speak Oghuz Turkic language. It's a lost cause. I have already proven he doesn't have the mental capacity to edit any Saljuq article if he doesn't understand that they spoke that language, he thinks any Turkic mention is against his Persians ideals. Vandalism 101. I know you have worked on the Seljuk article before and you have been outnumbered. Your future presence in the article will be appreciated. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 13:28, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
merhaba ben osman bey adlı kullancıyım (kouhi) beni bloke ettirdi.beni bloke ettirdikten sonra selçuklu sultanlarının tamamının türkçe okunuşlarının sildi.lütfen yapmış olduğu değişikliklere kendi gözünüzle bakın ve lütfen benim yorumumu silmeyim. sizden ricam bu kişiyi şikayet etmeniz.direk olarak düşmanlık yapıyor.yetkili kişilere ulaşırsanız çok sewvinirim.--88.251.253.214 (talk) 19:43, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
@Nedim Ardoğa: Nedim sorry for the slow movement of the discussion as I have been busy in real life, and I didn't want to join the discussion without valuable assets guiding me, and I have special thanks to Kansas Bear for pointing to me towards a credible book, I'm actually thinking of buying it. I assure you 110% That the Seljuqs spoke Oghuz Turkic. Toghril doesn't even know Arabic or Persian and he needs help translating, so you can't tell me a guy coming from Jand, near lower Syr Darya river is literate with Persian language. When the time is right I will call you in, this subject is of personal importance to me. I also wanted to thank you for the help and services you have provided towards me thought my Wikipedia experience. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 05:36, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
Mail
Hello, Nedim Ardoğa. Please check your email; you've got mail! It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.
Hi Nedim, thanks for your reply. So far none of the users who have objected to my edits have bothered to reply back to me. Can you advice me on what I should do if it continues this way? I really don't understand why a source written by a Turkish person is considered POV. I have included many non-Turkish sources too - all mostly academic. Is Wikipedia based on orientalism? Are only sources written by White Europeans considered "reliable"? It seems ridiculous to me, one should surely also find Turkish sources too in an article about Turkish people. Having said that, the source by Levent Soysal is part of an edited book called "Ethnic Groups of Europe: An Encyclopedia: An Encyclopedia" and is used by many other Wikipedia articles [3]. I don't understand why it suddenly becomes an "unreliable" source when it comes to the Turkish people article. O.celebi (talk) 20:10, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
Also, please note that I have placed a quotation of almost every single source in the references. If you copy-paste to a search engine it should direct you to the sources. I would greatly appreciate it if you know of anyone neutral who would be willing to take a look into this. Is there a platform on Wikipedia were we can submit our qualifications? I am a Masters graduate and have been studying migration and the Middle East for some time. O.celebi (talk) 20:28, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
General problem of the articles involving Turkey is that there are very few Turkish editors. Among this very few, most are interested only in sports. So whenever there is a discussion the Turkish editor is surely defeated on the final ballot. (I struggled in vain to move the title Tenedos to Bozcaada) As for your problem, claiming over 1 million Turks in Algeria and Tunisia is a very challenging claim. While Turkish communities in Iraq or Syria are reasonable such big communities in Barbary is hard to believe. Such hard-to-believe claims should be backed by many English academic (and preferrably written) sources. But please don't get disappointed. Continue editting in WP. Cheers. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 06:28, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Nedim, I really don't understand why it is hard to believe. The 1 million figure for Algeria is the Turkish source but the much higher figure of 1.74 million is a "Western source" by the Oxford Business Group. Take a look here: [4] - it states "Algerians of Turkish descent still represent 5% of the population and live mainly in the big cities" (page 10 of the same books states a total population of 34.8 million). As for Tunisia, The Rotarian states that Tunisia's population is "made up mostly of people of Arab, Berber, and Turkish descent." see here [5]. For Libya, Abdulsattar Hatitah [again, not a Turk] states "However other Libyan researchers and expert also revealed that around 15 percent of the Libyan population have no tribal affiliation whatsoever, being descendents of the Berber, Turkish, and other communities." [6] My point is that these Turkish communities in North Africa are very real and need to be addressed in the Turkish people article too. O.celebi (talk) 09:39, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Well, if you're sure of your sources you can edit using your sources. As WP puts it "Be bold". Don't let people threaten you. Athenean's warning is about 3 edits/day rule (to prevent edit warring). Take time when reverting other editor's edits. When necessary use the talk page of the article. Happy editting. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 14:03, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Hi. I was wondering if you'd be interested in setting up Wikipedia:The 1000 Challenge (Turkey), based on Wikipedia:The 10,000 Challenge and Wikipedia:The 1000 Challenge (Nordic). Now it's not a contest in itself, it's designed to motivate people to inspire others to improve content and build something which demonstrates the hard work going into the country which is visible. The focus is more on quality improvements but new articles are welcome too. Eventually a Turkish National Contest could be created to fuel it, like Wikipedia:Awaken the Dragon, in which contestants can choose to keep the Amazon vouchers themselves to buy their own books for more articles or put them into book fund to help editors further improve Turkish-related topics by giving them the books they want. It will begin though as purely an improvement drive. If interested, or you think anybody else might be interested, alert them and sign up on the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Turkey talk page at the bottom. Thank you. --MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 14:12, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
Frankly I didn't quite understand what the challenge project is. The articles are already tagged for the associated projects. Are we required to create newer article and to improve the existing articles ? That's something all editors are already doing. Can you please explain what difference the challenge project makes ? Thanks. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 07:33, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
As for the Çekerek River, as far as I can see, only the history of the region has been treated. Maybe a few words on the geography can be added by using a Turkish on-line source[7]. Would you like me to translate it for you ? Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 07:54, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Hi, the challenge is designed to visibly display the work which people are doing on Turkey. If people just edit independently most people don't get to see the work is being done. The idea is that a focus like that challenges editors and inspires existing editors or editors who might not normally edit Turkish articles to produce content. Wikipedia:WikiProject Africa/The 10,000 Challenge has produced over 150 articles already this month. And there's the possibility of running a Turkish national Contest with Amazon vouchers or books about Turkey as prizes to fuel a drive. Such a contest could potentially bring in a few dozen new contributors to Turkey for a month and might produce results for Turkey like Wikipedia:WikiProject Wales/Awaken the Dragon/Article improvements and creations. If you'd be interested in seeing that for Turkey this is possible through this mechanism.♦ Dr. Blofeld08:11, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Türk halklarının Tarihi
merhaba Türk halklarının tarihi diye bir sayfa var
bu sayfa türk halklarının tarihini 1300 yılına osmanlıların kuruluşuna kadar anlatıyor.ben bunu 1500 yılına kadar uzatmayı düşünüyorum ve yanındaki tabloyu düzenlemeyi düşünüyorum.çünkü bu 200 yılda gerek dünya gerekse türk halklarının tarihi açısından çok önemli olaylar olmuştur.ankara savaşı örnek olarak TİMUR İMPARATORLUĞU-AKKOYUNLULAR-KARAKOYUNLULAR bu listeye eklenmesi gereken devletlerdir.tarihsel açıdanda çok çok önemli olaylar olmuştur.bu listenin ve tablonun güncellenmesi gerektiğini düşünüyorum.ben bütün önemli olayları araştırıp düzgün bir şekilde yerleştirebilirim.Bu işe kalkışıyımmı engel olurlarmı??bide bunu yaparsam sayfa adının değiştirilmesi gerek.bunu nasıl yapacağım hakkında bir fikrim yok.--Gündoğdu (talk) 18:54, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
Timeline of the Turkic peoples (500–1300) başlıklı tabloyu ben düzenledim. (Tabii başkalarının da katkısı oldu) Tablo 1300 de bitiyor. Daha sonrası bir başka editör tarafından hazırlanmış olan Timeline of the Ottoman Empire tablosunda. Tabii bu tablo Osmanlı dışındaki olayları kapsamıyor. Bu tablolara dokunmayın. Apayrı bir madde oluşturun. ("Timeline of the Turkic peoples after 1300" gibi) İngilizce olduktan ve ciddi kaynaklara dayandıktan sonra kimse silemez. (Bu arada tartışma sayfalarındaki iletileriniz İngilizce olursa daha doğru olur.) Kolay gelsin. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 19:07, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
Note:Above discussion in Turkish is about a missing article on Turkic history.
ingilizcem idare eder seviyede çok iyi değil.direk olarak o sayfadan devam etsem olmazmı.çünkü ayrı iki sayfa olursa saçma olucağını düşünüyorum.mesela çin tarihi ile ilgili liste var tek parça halinde.aynı konuyla ilgili ayrı iki sayfa olursa biraz saçma olur.--Gündoğdu (talk) 19:23, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
Eğer yeniden sayfa yapacaksak bence 1500'e kadar değil Osmanlıların yıkılış Türkiye Cumhuriyeti devletinin kuruluş tarihine kadar olmalıdır.içerisinde tüm Türk haklarının tarihini bulunduracak Timeline of the Turkic peoples (500–1300) bu sayfaya paralel olacak şekilde.hem böylece eksik tamamlanmış olur.yapılmasına yapılır ama çok emek istiyen birşey.--Gündoğdu (talk) 20:24, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
Osmanlılar ve Kayı boyu
Merhaba Nedim Ardoğa,
Başka bir kullanıcıyla bir tartışma çıktı. Birkaç güvenilir kaynaklarıma göre Osmanlıların Kayı soyu sahte olabilir, 15. yüzyılda uydurulmuş. Birkaç makalede Kayı soyunun şüpheli olduğunu yazmak istedim, ama başka bir kullanıcı kaynaklarımı siliyor, kesin bir şey olduğu gibi yazıyor. Müdahale etmeni rica edebilir miyim? Benim sayfamda tartışmamız bulunuyor. Bu konuda nasıl düşünüyorsun? Chamboz (talk) 21:38, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
Oghuz Turkish language in Seljuk court
Erdoğan Merçil, 'Selçuklular ve Türkçe', Belleten, 67(248) (2003), 111-17
I hope you can obtain this document and present to us some of the information that Professor Merçil has collected. He collected all the evidence in those 6 pages. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 00:06, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
Hi Nedim, I hope you're doing well. I just wanted to ask, do you consider the term "Anatolian Turks" to be representative of ethnic Turks in Eastern Thrace (like Istanbul, Edirne etc.). From my understanding this is a term mostly used for those in the Anatolia region. O.celebi (talk) 11:54, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
No clear cut definition. But it is assumed that the Thracian Turks are so called Evlad'ı Fatihan, ie, they descend from Anatolian Turks who served in the conquest of Rumeli. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 13:11, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
Yes, of course. The same is with Bulgarian Turks, Turkish Cypriots and other ethnic Turkish groups whose identity is formed from the Ottoman legacy. Whilst it is generally accepted that they have Anatolian-Turkish speaking origins they call themselves "Turks/Turkish" (or Bulgarian, Cypriot, Meskhetian Turks) rather than "Anatolian Turks". In places like Izmir and Istanbul, saying "I am Anatolian Turk" in the modern sense generally implies they have come to these cities from central Anatolia, right? I asked because the term is being used very loosely in the intro for the Turkish people article - as though all ethnic Turkish people say this. I'm currently trying to write the distinction in my sandbox, and welcome your thoughts. O.celebi (talk) 14:05, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
Mother of Malik-Shah
Nedim can you find the name of the mother of Malik-Shah? I believe his mother was married to Toghril, but I don't have substantial evidence. Kind of like a pseudo-Levirate marriage but instead of the brother it is the uncle. The book "Continuity and Change in Medieval Persia" says Alp Arslan married Aka. Also why did Toghril failed to give birth to any offspring, are they marriages on paper, I'm confused since he was desperate to marry the Caliph's daughter. I would like to see your input in the matter. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 00:52, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
I don't have a serious source on Melik Shah's mother. But traditionally she is believed to be a certain Selcen Hatun. (This may be a fabrication; for a Selcen Hatun is also a legendary character in Dede Korkut tales.) Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 07:37, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
You know what, I just thought it about right now and it came to me, the documentation of Alp Arslan's marriages is when he came to power in 1063, Malik-Shah was born in 1055, so we will never know as she might not be recorded compared to other Seljuq rulers, and her lack of naming can be that she died early or she was a concubine. Also what do you think of Toghril's lack of children, I find it very suspicious, he just married Chaghri's wife after he died so the next ruler was supposed to be Sulayman, the son of that woman and Chaghri, I also find his death very suspicious, the marriage of him to the Caliph Al-Qa'im's daughter, no offspring, no baby, no future, Seljuq Caliph, he just got sick and died. Also the Caliph married Chaghri's daughter Arslan Khatun, again I see no babies. What do you think? Alexis Ivanov (talk) 09:25, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
Beçin
I have a source, the 2002 book "Early Ottoman Art", that has a section on Beçin - will add some of its content. I had intended to visit this place in 2014 but it was too hot a day and didn't go. I researched it at the time. Seems there has been serious destruction of the site's historical value caused by over "restoration". Regarding sources, I do not think you should be linking to minor websites like http://www.neredekal.com/becin-kalesi/ - they are not RS sources suitable for archaeology or history. Arguably the Turkish Ministry of Culture website is also not RS except as a source for recent non-controversial events. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:25, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
OK, this is WP. Everybody can edit. If you have better sources please do use them. I'd be only too glad to see the article expanded. As for the inexperienced restoration; yes unfortunatelly that's a general problem. Please compere the two images in Cleopatra's Gate. Cheers. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 06:49, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
Have added some content on the monuments. I think it is better to use no source than those low-grade sources. Most are commercial websites whose main purpose is advertising hotels, tours, and such like. Having them used just encourages them, and more of them. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:23, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
WP:The 1000 Challenge (Turkey)
Hi Nedim Ardoğa! Your additions to the WP:The 1000 Challenge (Turkey) is much appreciated. Would you please also update the percentage figure in the banner after adding your contribution to its list. Thanks. CeeGee06:36, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
Caracalla's inscription
Hi Nedim Ardoğan! I notice that you've recently reverted my last edit on Caracalla's inscription. I copyedited it in line with the sources you gave before, and took out the unreferenced sentences. Would you please explain what was wrong. ThanCeeGee08:08, 1 October 2016 (UTC)ks.
Thanks for your contributions. But your last edit was wrong. (I know this is because of the complicated explanation of the source) Now the state highway runs in the west not in the east and there is no access to the inscription. Cheers. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 08:11, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
The access description is correct. This you can check on any map online. I did it. Therefore, I re-instate my copyedit. CeeGee08:18, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
OK since I hate warring I keep your last edit.(Thanks for the other edits anyway) But please do me a favor and show where the alternative road to İskender kitabesi is using the the following link. (Actually it is a destructed former state road. Now the state road follows another route in the west and recomending the former unmaintained former road to visitors is highly risky ) [8]Cheers Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 09:57, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
It is accessible by a regional road, not by a state road. Please check its location at the map [9], which shows by zooming in the tiny road east of the motorway running southwards and ends about 5 km from Akçatekir. CeeGee10:36, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
Turkic peoples history new template
merhaba daha önce söylemiş olduğum Türk halklarının tarihi ile ilgili 14.yüzyıldan sonrasını gösteren yeni tablo oluşturdum.tarihsel sıralamaya göre düzenledim.gerekli kaynakları gösterdim.diğer tabloda,Timeline of the Turkic peoples (500–1300) bu sayfaya yönlendiriyordu.ben bu tabloda Turkic_peoples#History buraya yönlendiriyorum ayrıyetten yeni tarihsel sıralama sayfası oluşturmaya gerek olduğunu düşünmüyorum.çünkü çin ile ilgili tablodada direk olarak çin tarihi sayfasına yönlendiriyor.daha sonra sıkıntı çıkartabilecekleri safaviler-afşarlar-timurlular-babür devleti gibi devletlere kaynak gösterdim.bide yeni sayfa oluşturmayı bilmiyorum.isterseniz bir inceleyin.
başlık olarak ise Template:History of the Turkic peoples after-14th century diğer tabloya paralel olarak bu şekilde olabilir.--Gündoğdu (talk) 09:15, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
birde başka bir konu hakkında birşey söyleyecektim.Ottoman Empire sayfasında önceller ve ardıllar bölümünde bir noktadan sonrasını göstermiyor.17 tane önceli(Preceded by) var.15 tanesini gösteriyor.20 tane ardılı(Succeeded) by var, oda 15 tane gösteriyor.denemeler yaptım 15 taneden sonrasını göstermiyor.bunu çözmenin yolu yokmu.--Gündoğdu (talk) 15:45, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
Let's make it clear. There is a general templete geo-stub. This template includes all places in the World. Then, there are also templates for countries like Italy-geo-stub and templates for regions like Marmara-geo-stub and templates for cities like Munich-geo-stub etc. Now please tell me what is wrong with Gümüşhane-geo-stub.Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 06:12, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
Sorry, there was a break in the above link to your change at Template:Gümüşhane-geo-stub, which I have now fixed. Look at it – the version that you restored, and left, gives the category as Category:Gümüşhane Province geography stubs. That category has been deleted, and it had been emptied – but your edit has populated it again. What I am saying is that you can restore a stub template, but if you do that then you need to edit it afterwards to use the merged category, like the Tekirdağ one (linked above). – FayenaticLondon12:51, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
Let me know if you do not understand what is needed, and which stub templates you have restored; I don't mind tidying up for you. – FayenaticLondon20:46, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
How do you know that a cat will remain unpopulated in the future ? Will each editor count all possible cat population one by one to see if the magic number 60 is reached or not? ? It is not logical. I suggest we concentrate on creating new articles and refrain ourselves from time and energy consuming trivialities such as cat level discussions. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 06:15, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
October 2016
Hello, I'm Zackmann08. Thank you for your recent contributions to Biçerova railway station. I noticed that when you added the image to the infobox, you added it as a thumbnail. In the future, please do not use thumbnails when adding images to an infobox (see WP:INFOBOXIMAGE). What does this mean? Well in the infobox, when you specify the image you wish to use, instead of doing it like this:
Instead just supply the name of the image. So in this case you can simply do:
|image=SomeImage.jpg.
There will then be a separate parameter for the image caption such as |caption=Some image caption. Please note that this is a generic form message I am leaving on your page because you recently added a thumbnail to an infobox. The specific parameters for the image and caption may be different for the infobox you are using! Please consult the Template page for the infobox being used to see better documentation. Thanks! Zackmann08 (Talk to me/What I been doing) 18:14, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the warning. However I am using too many sideboxes for different projects and there is no standart procedure to add images. In some sideboxes when I don't use a thumb the image is displyed in its original size. Anyway I'll remember your warning in the future. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 19:17, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
Asian 10,000 Challenge invite
Hi. The Wikipedia:WikiProject Asia/The 10,000 Challenge has recently started, based on the UK/Ireland Wikipedia:The 10,000 Challenge and Wikipedia:WikiProject Africa/The 10,000 Challenge. The idea is not to record every minor edit, but to create a momentum to motivate editors to produce good content improvements and creations and inspire people to work on more countries than they might otherwise work on. There's also the possibility of establishing smaller country or regional challenges for places like South East Asia, Japan/China or India etc, much like Wikipedia:The 1000 Challenge (Nordic). For this to really work we need diversity and exciting content and editors from a broad range of countries regularly contributing. At some stage we hope to run some contests to benefit Asian content, a destubathon perhaps, aimed at reducing the stub count would be a good place to start, based on the current Wikipedia:WikiProject Africa/The Africa Destubathon which has produced near 200 articles in just three days. If you would like to see this happening for Asia, and see potential in this attracting more interest and editors for the country/countries you work on please sign up and being contributing to the challenge! This is a way we can target every country of Asia, and steadily vastly improve the encyclopedia. We need numbers to make this work so consider signing up as a participant! Thank you. --Ser Amantio di NicolaoChe dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa.11:22, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
Unfortunatelly there are only a few sources. According to some sources she was a member of Germiyanid house. (It is true that a daughter of Germiyanid Süleyman was sent to Ottoman palace.) But according to Halil İnalcık, the most reliable author, Devlet was the daughter of a convert (ISBN978-605-5586-06-5 p.121) Necdet Sakaoğlu also supports this view. (ISBN978-975-329-693-9 p.69) Their main evidence is Devlet's tomb stone. It reads "binti Abdullah" meaning daughter of Abdullah where Abdullah was a common name given to converts. Mehmet I was her son. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 15:04, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
Hello there, I saw your contributions for Kazakhstan articles. I am also an editor for Kazakhstan related articles. I've like for you to participate in The 1000 Challenge (Kazakhstan) project. I am looking for participants who would like to create 1000 related Kazakhstan articles. I'd like for you to accept my invitation.
Hi Nedim Ardoğa! The Turkish title of the Balıkesir National Struggle Museum is given as "Kuva-yi Milli Müzesi", which can be translated as "Museum of Nationalist Forces". Thus, I would suggest its renaming. I searched for "Milli Mücadele Müzesi Balıkesir" in Google and found the other name. I wanted to know your opinion. Cheers. CeeGee17:06, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
Hello, Nedim Ardoğa. Voting in the 2016 Arbitration Committee elections is open from Monday, 00:00, 21 November through Sunday, 23:59, 4 December to all unblocked users who have registered an account before Wednesday, 00:00, 28 October 2016 and have made at least 150 mainspace edits before Sunday, 00:00, 1 November 2016.
The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
Farmakonisi = Bulamaç Island : Wikipedia says: Farmakonisi is a small Greek island (NOT true!) / Pserimos = Keçi Island / Agathonisi = Eşek Island / These are Turkish islands... / Some newspapers in Turkey say: Turkey gave 18 islands to Greece. / NOT true! (First of all the number 18 is incorrect! They even count the islands west of Crete!)/ Oinousses = Koyun adaları, Greek islands Böri (talk) 10:44, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
There are some newspaper articles about the islands handed to Greece. But there are no reliable official reports. They were a part of Dodecanese. But as far as I understand they were too small to be listed in the treaties. So their status is ambigious. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 10:55, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
That agreement (1932) says: Article 1 The Italian Government recognises the sovereignty of Turkey over the following islets: Volo (Gatal-Ada = Çatalada), Ochendra(Uvendire), Fournachia(Furnakya), Kato Volo (Katovolo), Prassoudi (Prasudi south-east of Catovolo). The islets of Tchatallota, Pighi, Nissi-Tis-Pighi, Agricelia reef, Proussecliss(rock), Pano Makri, Kato Makri(including the rocks), Marathi, Roccie Voutzaky (Rocci Vutchaki), Dacia (Dasya), Nissi-Tis Dacia, Prassoudi (north of Dacia), Alimentarya (Alimentaria), Caravola (Karavola). Article 2 The islet of Kara-Ada, situated in the Bay of Bodrum, shall likewise belong to Turkey. / We see the name of Marathi Island. Böri (talk) 08:06, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
on Google you can find that. (if you write: Italian-Turkish Agreement 1932)/ Turkey gave the Dodecanese Islands to Italy. (but Italy would give them back to Turkey)Italy gave them to Greece in 1947. (and in 1932 Italy already gave the small islands to Turkey)De facto the islands are under Greek control. From Italo-Turkish War article: The Ottomans would withdraw all military personnel from Trablus and Benghazi vilayets (Libya)but in return, Italy would return Rhodes and the other Aegean islands it held back to the Turks. Böri (talk) 10:41, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Now, we understood that there are 2 Marathi islands: 1) Marathi Island (east of Patmos)in Greece 2) Marathi Island = Gürmenli Island, Antalya province (near Meis) In 1932 Italy gave us this second island. (NOT the first one!) / and there's another Marathi village in Crete. / And how many people are living in all of these islands above? For example, Wikipedia says: population = 10 in Farmakonisi Island!!! (So did we really give these islands to Greece or did we see them as empty islands near Turkey? This is the question! Böri (talk) 07:58, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
Kozan Castle
I will overlook your bad faith edit summary and suggest that you self-revert your recent edit. You already know my opinion of the low grade, anonymously written, web-based sources you have sometimes been using. In this case, the "source" you cite is making wild claims that are not supported by RS academic sources, and it is a propaganda website (like all such Turkish governmental websites). If you do not self-revert I will take the issue to the RS noticeboard. This will inevitably mean the exclusion of all the other similar Turkish websites (none of them are credible sources to be cited for history-related content) - which could result in the deletion of much of the material that you have been using in your recently created archeology / monument related articles. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 03:32, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
As you have noted the history of the castle prior to Roman times is not known. But the Assyrian inscription proves that the castle is older than the Roman Empire. That's what I've written and you have deleted. Why ? Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 07:22, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
The rs Edwards source unequivocally states that there are no written records of the settlement older than the Byzantine period, and in the description of the castle's standing remains, Edward's reveals that there are no physical remains dating to a period earlier than that of the Byzantine era and that the vast majority of the castle's structure is from the Cilician Armenia period. You have no rs for any "Assyrian inscription" or claim of earlier evidence. Your source is an anonymously written Turkish governmental website that also reproduces the standard Turkish nationalist propaganda playbook (such as minimizing or removing mention of a settlement's Greek or Armenian past, engaging in Armenian Genocide denial and ethnic slurs and stereotyping (have you looked at http://www.kozan.bel.tr/?/kozan1), and presenting prior civilisations to indicate that said Greeks or Armenians were merely insignificant incomers in the grand scheme of things and were just part of a big "multicultural" continuity). These governmental websites are acceptable for uncontroversial data like current population sizes, mayors, political representatives, transport links, etc., but for nothing beyond that. If there is an Assyrian inscription, its existance will have been reported in a specialist archeological publication, one that will have rs status, and one which presumably would give a proper interpretation of the significance of the inscription rather than the trite "this shows that the castle was used by many people". Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:06, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
You are exteremely prejudiced. You accuse me of something which I always hate. So far I've created more than 2200 articles and absolutelly no one accused me of these stupid things. I live in Cilicia and I never denied the history of my region including the Armenian kingdom. If you were a bit more senseful, you'd see how rootless your accusations were. As for Kozan Castle, please read the sentence "In the castle there are some inscriptions written in Assyrian, Roman and Armenian language " before you atrociously deleted the sentence. Note that the Armenian period was stated in the original form. By the way, you have added texts to some of the articles which were created by me. l never deleted any word you've added and in fact I am thankful for the additions. But you always delete my texts. Please try to be a bit more cooperative and less prejudiged. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 17:59, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
OK - to the RS noticeboard we go. If you don't like being accused of using non-RS sources, then don't use non-RS sources! I have not been accusing you of anything more than that. You seem to have ownership issues, an urge to make things personal, and a habit of creating articles regardless of not having access to suitable sources for their content. This is compounded by being involved in a time-limited project to create as many article as possible in a set topic area, Turkey, a part of the world notorious for its state-sponsored pseudo-history and propaganda tracts. Have you ever read Wikipedia:Your first article and its advice on first finding reliable sources and if there are none then don't create the article. I'm wondering what exactly is the "Roman language", btw. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 23:38, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions with User:Nedim Ardoğa. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
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