This is an archive of past discussions with User:Mashaunix. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
I feel like just because the band are listed as a genre on their main page that doesn't mean they are that for every album they have done, I personally didn't want to say what albums where what genre so I just reverted them all. I guess if you can find sources that describe the album as those genres that would be okay. --EndlessNameless7 (talk) 20:47, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
It would be ideal to have individual sources for each album, but so long as we don't, using those sourced for the band seems reasonable to me. If you reject that, then there should be no unsourced genres in the album articles. It doesn't make any sense to list three out of four; there should be all, or none.--MASHAUNIX21:46, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
I guess I can't argue with that. But I do feel like not all the genres apply to all there albums for example Calculating Infinity doesn't sound like progressive metal and Irony is a Dead Scene doesn't sound like metalcore. However if you wish to make the change again I won't revert it back, sorry to have coursed an inconvenience. EndlessNameless7 (talk) 00:30, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
No worries, I'll do that and then look for some specific sources describing the style of different albums.--MASHAUNIX13:22, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
the subgenre originated in Northern Europe a decade after the NWOBHM.
NWOBHM was a movement which contained many different styles, ranging from proto-thrash to pop metal, which style was melodic enough? Maybe Iron Maiden?
during that decade thousands of heavy metal records were released of many new subgenres; many of them were melodic and more accessible than the works of Tysondog, Shiva and Blitzkrieg. German power metal comes to mind.
I could not find interviews to any musician which could confim Bowar's definition.
I'm not misrepresenting the information, despite not explicitly talking about genre, McCoy says that Post-Black Metal was being played 10 years before them and then they started playing it and fans of related music started to follow they work that's it :) The media in fact commonly says they play Shoegaze Black Metal.
The whole shoegaze/black metal, or post-black metal thing, was being done ten years before we were a band. We just started doing it and found people coming to our shows wearing Planning for Burial shirts, or kids that were into Mount Eerie really liked us. We were still an insanely small band at this time, like, could not get a hundred people to come see us. It was those kids who really had their ear to the ground on that kind of thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by A r m i n i u s (talk • contribs) 15:47, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
You made it sound like this was affirmed by a variety of sources (the media) and the whole band agreed with this (rather than just McCoy saying this). No big deal, just make sure no to suggest something that the source doesn't.--MASHAUNIX17:39, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Genres and references
Hello,
While I can see why "hardcore punk" would appear to be self-evidently tied to "New York Hardcore Punk" this is an encyclopedia, and therefore citations and references are needed - otherwise, where does an editor draw the line of "self-evident" material? I was able to easily find a citation and handled it, but in the future please look for supporting references before adding genres back in. Garchy (talk) 14:53, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
Hey Mashaunix, would you be interested in taking a look at my first FAC? Fightstar is a British post-hardcore/alt metal band. It's been untouched since I submitted it on March 27, and no other candidate has received such poor treatment :/ dannymusiceditorSpeak up!20:18, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
Topsongs on YouTube; how are these not close to death metal? They essentially sound like Morbid Angel at 3x speed with more of a punk style. The point is, grindcore was the first genre that clearly emerged from the melding of hardcore and death metal influences, making it a key precursor to deathcore. If you read the history section of the grindcore article in more detail, it backs the centrality of death metal to both original English grind (Napalm Death) and subsequent American grind (Terrorizer). There are definitely some bands in which the death metal influences take a back seat, but don't you think an association with deathcore is justified?--MASHAUNIX17:28, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
Well in my opinion, it isn't! The article we have for this "genre" is extremely weak and I would be in support of deleting it. Our definition rests upon three references and there is no evidence that anyone aside from their authors thinks of deathgrind as a separate thing. Of course there are many bands who tread the blurry line between grindcore and death metal (and technical death metal), the most popular example being maybe Cattle Decap. But that alone does not make for a distinct genre; "deathgrind" has no identity distinct from its parent genres, like deathcore or any other well-recognized fusion genre does. If you go through the refs used for different bands in the deathgrind article, you will find that some simply call the bands "death metal/grindcore", and this is what "death/grind" stands for; a bordering of two movements, not a distinct one itself.--MASHAUNIX09:36, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
I agree that deathgrind isnt nesserialy a genre per-se, but my point was that death metal and grindcore are two entirely separate things. Grindcore is its own thing and death metal is another. Grindcore didn't come directly from death metal and much of cultural impact came directly from the 80s hardcore scene. That's why there's bands that combine the two together like Exhumed and Lord Gore, which of course sound different from Anal Cunt or Discordance Axis Second Skin (talk) 03:44, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
Paramore
Hey, I reverted you on Paramore. However, if we have to remove anything, how about emo? They are more specifically known as emo pop, which is already very similar, so I would rather have that. Everything else I think should stay, since they apply to a great deal of their work. Kokoro20 (talk) 22:43, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
Read the recommendation I cited. Power pop is a subgenre of pop rock, which is why there is no need to include both and a discussion of power pop in the article body is sufficient. As for emo/emo pop, there is the same number of citations for both, and emo pop is both not a widely recognized genre (as evidenced by the very weak article we have for it) and a fusion genre of emo and pop punk; therefore it does not need to be included either, so long as both pop punk and emo are.--MASHAUNIX23:01, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, but it's just that, a recommendation, not policy, and should only be taken with a grain of salt. True that power pop is a sub-genre of pop rock, but since it covers a great deal of their work, and is highly cited, I think it should stay, along with pop rock. But I already said I would rather have emo pop than emo, if we were to remove one of them. Kokoro20 (talk) 00:40, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
As for power pop, that's IMO a case of over-using the infobox where the body is sufficient, but if others support your view then fine. But why would you prefer emo pop, which is by far the less recognized "genre", suffering from all the weaknesses I highlighted? There is no strong support for its association with Paramore; on the other hand I'm sure I could find plenty more references associating them simply with emo.--MASHAUNIX09:05, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
It is less recognizable, sure, but if it's notable enough to have its own article, it's notable enough to be in infoboxes. But thinking about it now, I guess would be fine with either emo or emo pop. Kokoro20 (talk) 09:25, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
Redirect
Stoner rock does not mention Trip Metal either where are you getting this logic? I'm telling you to Google since you have no idea what you're talking about, not the reader. Look at the first page of results and tell me it makes any modicum of sense to redirect to stoner rock. Listen to one song classified as "trip metal" and tell me it is stoner rock. -- John Reaves15:53, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
Fair enough, the redirect to stoner rock isn't more justified in this sense, it is merely the logic of combining trip (LSD – acid rock) and heavy metal. But what songs are "classified as trip metal"? The google results talk about a festival. If this is going to redirect to the band's article it ought to be mentioned in it.--MASHAUNIX16:00, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
Did you actually google this or read any of the results? I don't understand how you could logically infer "stoner rock" as the appropriate target for the redirect if you actually googled this and clicked on any link. -- John Reaves18:42, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
I did but didn't quite get it, is this the name of a festival organized by the band? I've explained the logic behind my redirect to stoner rock. Can you explain your logic, that is the connection to the band/noise music?--MASHAUNIX18:46, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
This is one of the only bands that have an actual traceable connection to this made up genre (as evidenced by the festival and the other articles available for your perusal) [1] . There is no connection to stoner rock other than your synonymical leaps.
Responding to ping... It appears that the question is "where to redirect trip metal." I have a different suggestion altogether: create the article Trip Metal Fest and redirect to that. (The New York Times published a story about it, and other news articles too. Satisfies WP:GNG so it merits an article.)
I know the redirect used to be to Wolf Eyes, but if you look at the sources, it becomes clear the band is calling themselves trip metal as a form of differentiation.[2][3] They are the only examples of the notional genre, so it revolves around their band. Even the Trip Metal Fest is their production. The key point is that music critics are not naming other bands as trip metal, so it's not really a music genre.
Regarding the suggested redirect to stoner rock, I don't see any reliable sources connecting the concepts. And I don't see why "noise rock" should be saddled with the trip metal redirect, since Wolf Eyes is the only example of a noise rock band (supposedly) evolving to trip metal.
As an aside, I think the band article Wolf Eyes should tell the reader that they call themselves trip metal, but this should be added to the article body without putting trip metal in the infobox. Binksternet (talk) 19:47, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
I should have explained myself when I made the edit I'm sorry about that I have a bad habit of not explaining myself in edit summaries. My explanation about my revert is that their there are plenty of sources that describe Paramore as emo pop to be included in the infobox. And yes I know pop punk and emo are also in the infobox but the infobox isn't too cluttered with genres. All the genres in the infobox are fine the way they are. Also emo pop isn't a subgenre it's a fushion genre. If this discussion needs to be continued we should bring it to Paramore's talk page. Bowling is life (talk) 21:00, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
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Hello Mashaunix, I appreciate your help with the garage rock article. I noticed that you removed heavy metal in the info box there. Heavy metal has been mentioned there for a long time (before I got here). I'm not fan of heavy metal (though I like some of the very earliest stuff), so I don't have any particular emotional attachment to heavy metal. But, do think that garage rock had an influence on heavy metal genre and that the info box should mention it, as it has.
I know that Blue Cheer, who are often mentioned as perhaps the first heavy metal band, had several members that previously played in garage rock acts. Two members of garage/psychedelic band, the Oxford Circle were in Blue Cheer: drummer Paul Whaley, who went directly from the Oxford Circle to Blue Cheer's first lineup, as well as guitarist/vocalist Gary Lee Yoder, who joined Blue Cheer in 1969. Guitarist Randy Holden joined Blue Cheer in 1969—he had previously played in the Sons of Adam and the Other Half. We have sources in all of the articles (about the people and acts mentioned above) discussing these connections.
Bitter Creek who recorded "Plastic Thunder" (1967)[4] and Glass Sun, who did "Silence in the Morning" (1968)[5] are bands that came out of the garage/psychedelic tradition, but who did what could be considered proto-metal songs.
Heavy metal and hard rock were influenced by all of the pervasive 60s rock styles that had immediately preceded them: British invasion, psychedelic, acid rock, garage rock, etc. Garage rock was so pervasive in the mid-60s that when it dissipated, its practitioners went practically everywhere, and hard rock and heavy metal were definitely receptive.
There is no doubt that the most obvious beneficiaries of garage rock influence, stylistically speaking, were the proto-punk of the early 1970s (MC5, Stooges, etc.) and the later 70s punk movement. Certainly garage rock appeals mainly to "punk/new wave-oriented" people who like their rock fast, lively, and simple, not slow and drawn out with a lot of intricate guitar and drum solos. But, that does not mean that some of the influence went on to heavy metal—much garage rock featured use of loud guitars and fuzz. I think we should put heavy metal back into the info box at the garage rock article as it has been for a long time. Garagepunk66 (talk) 00:48, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
I see your point and I don't disagree. However, I think that we need at least several reliable sources which suggest that heavy metal pioneers were influenced directly by garage rock bands, rather than indirectly through acid rock. If you can locate such sources, I would support your case on the heavy metal talk page so that the link between the two genres would be included in the infoboxes of both their articles.--MASHAUNIX14:10, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
You make a good point. I suppose that some of the dilemma may be about determining exactly when heavy metal started—there are so many differing accounts. Some people say that it began in 1970 with Black Sabbath (with everything before that being hard rock or acid rock, not heavy metal). Others say that it came even later. However, I've also read accounts that credit Blue Cheer as the first heavy metal band (approx. 1968). I know that when Blue Cheer appeared on Dick Clark's show in Feb. '68, they used the adjective "heavy" to describe their sound and that Clark commented on their huge wall of Marshall amps. [6] However, for now we could leave "heavy meal" out of the info box at garage rock. Perhaps we could begin a discussion on the talk page at the heavy metal article about when to pinpoint the inception of heavy metal and the degree of garage rock influence (people could find sources). If we could achieve a consensus there about garage rock having a direct influence, we could then be able to put heavy metal in the info box at garage rock. Garagepunk66 (talk) 18:17, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
The article states that some bands that used the Midwest emo sound are not from the Midwest like Mineral and Sunny Day Real Estate. If this us the case then shouldn't it be considered a subgenre. Dekai Averett (talk) 18:18, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
If you look at the source, it clearly calls Midwestern emo a scene, not a subgenre. If anything, in my opinion the significance of Mineral and Sunny Day Real Estate to the "indie emo" sound only proves that designating it as a separate genre is misguided. The Midwest bands were among the most significant in shaping the sound "second wave emo" but this sound was not limited to them and is now performed even by European bands such as Basement.--MASHAUNIX18:37, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
So what your saying is Midwest emo describes a scene and not a certain sound through many of those bands did have a certain sound. But if that is the case should Mineral and Sunny Day Real Estate be mentioned at all? Dekai Averett (talk) 00:43, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
I think it's good to mention them due to strong mutual influence with the Midwest bands. My point is that though Midwest emo had a specific sound, it was merely a scene within the "genre" of second wave emo which was performed by bands from across the States who embraced indie rock over hardcore influences.--MASHAUNIX09:27, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Please stop restoring your change. It was contested, with thoughtful rationale in the edit summary. Now is the time to discuss this elsewhere (WP:BRD) Dan56 (talk) 17:11, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
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This is an archive of past discussions with User:Mashaunix. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
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