User talk:Karmosin/Archive 2

This is an archive of past discussions with User:Karmosin. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Please don't edit other users' comments

Hi, I just wanted to request that you please not edit other users' comments on talk pages (see the change you made to my comment). The removed (gasp!) was specifically written to indicate surprise since the conversation had been going on for months without any sort of agreement.

Granted, this change is minor so I don't really care that much, but I just wanted to point out that I consider the only cases when another user's talk comments should be changed are when they consitute as vandalism or when the user is trolling (even though in the latter case, changing such comments is questionable; what should actually be done is to post another comment indicating such a comment is a troll). --Umofomia 23:38, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Umofomia. I didn't mean to offend and I apologize.

It didn't seem to merit an actual post about incivility, but I think it was a bit uncalled for. It seemed too sarcastic to me. Peter Isotalo 00:05, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

It's not a big deal; I just wanted you to be aware that many users might not appreciate that in the future. Sometimes comments are meant to be sarcastic in order to make a point, and that is perfectly normal on a talk page (although not in actual articles, of course). I don't think my comment was particularly out-of-line given many of the other comments on that page and the related Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Chinese)/NPOV and Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Chinese)/NPOV/Taiwan vs. ROC pages. --Umofomia 00:34, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Reminding you again, re Talk:Atlanta, Georgia. Don't mess with talk pages. You might ask an editor to tone down his or her own comments, on the User's talk page. Gene Nygaard 13:06, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Terribly sorry, Gene. :-( It seemed so clear-cut to me this time that I thought it would be smoother not to make a big fuss by posting a comment about it and all. I'll do it the old-fashioned way from now on.

Peter Isotalo 13:51, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

dialects and standardized dialects

I am not quite convinced that it be a good practice at all to denominate spoken "regionalt standardspråk" as "X Standard", but at the moment, this is what we do, since no other and better alternative has been able to achieve consensual support.

As you noted, Ruhrjung removed a section to the talk page [1] together with a (very) brief explanation. It seems as you did not notice the latter.

I could, of course, have moved your comment at the talk page so that it appeared together with that of Ruhrjung, and under the same heading, but since you are regularly present here, I am sure you can also do it yourself. After all, many contributors get upset if one moves their comments unnecessarily much around. :-)

--Johan Magnus 20:54, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind suggestions for better wording of the terms. What did you have in mind?

Nothing good, unfortunately. --Johan Magnus 22:26, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As for my comment, I wouldn't at all mind if you moved it. I don't see the need myself, though. Peter Isotalo 21:16, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)

Have now done so. It is easier to follow a discussion, if comments are collected under descriptive headings. Acting as if Ruhrjung does not exist, or is not worth to take seriously, is a bit careless with your appearance. --Johan Magnus 22:26, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Answering a post one section further down (in a summary of a mediation) is not ignoring and neither is it rude or even uncivil. Especially considering the discussion I've had with Ruhrjung at his talkpage, attempting to clarify the whole phonological matter. Peter Isotalo 12:28, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

No, it is no ignorance of rules. It is demonstrative ignorance of the contributor. That ought to be unnecessary unless the contributor in question deserves total ignorance, and this contributor does not, so in effect it only puts you in a bad light. --Johan Magnus 13:05, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

RfC

Thank you for your recent contribution to the Request for Comment regarding Cumbey. We appreciate your comments and hope that your view will assist in our goal of a quick resolution. KC9CQJ 11:25, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You're welcome. Just remember to go easier on the editing next time. Conspiracy theorists of this kind are always exposed and handled properly sooner or later event hough they are enough to make anyone frustrated.

I got quite a laugh out of reading those articles on Solana as a potential Antichrist, though. Peter Isotalo 11:30, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

PR Chinese language

I very much liked your recent comments on Wikipedia:Peer review/Chinese language/archive1. I haven't found the time yet to even think about them (let alone respond to them), but I'll try to get back to it eventually, because I find them interesting and thought-provoking). Right now, the only thing you should see me doing at Wikipedia is expanding Nobiin language since I'm working on a paper on its tonology. See you around! — mark ✎ 21:24, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Norrköping

Hej

Jag saknar ett svar från dig angående den fråga om Norrköping jag skrivit på din svenska diskussionsida [[:sv:Anv%E4ndardiskussion:Karmosin/Arkiv#Norrk.F6ping]]. För övrigt har artikeln Norrköping ändrats på olika sätt sedan 18/3. Jordgubbe 23:18, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Jag har inte läst igenom den helt och hållet, men den verkar ha förbättrats avsevärt. Jag är inte särskilt intresserad av att delta i något arbete på sv: så jag plockar bort min röst helt (tillsammans med andra). Bättre att inte ha röster kvar som jag ändå inte kommer att besvara. Men se det som ett indirekt stöd. Bra jobbat. Peter Isotalo 23:30, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

Old Norse - Old/Runic Swedish

Hej Peter! Jag tror inte att det finns någon självklar modell för detta, eftersom språken inte förändrades så fort och eftersom det inte finns något kriterium för dialekt/språk i detta sammanhang. Eftersom Old Norse dateras till perioden ca 800- ca 1250, så tror jag att man kalla Runic Swedish för Old East Norse (eller som en teoretisk undergrupp till denna).

Faktum är att jag tror att vi bör starta en diskussion om en standard på detta på Wikipedia. Det borde finnas gott om norrmän, danskar och islänningar som är intresserade av en terminologisk standard i denna fråga Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Old Norse, dates and subgroups).--Wiglaf 07:00, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Peter, I'm not sure if you're addressing me, but I have only just told Wiglaf that I would look into it, when I'll have time, and that I'm probably too stressed to enter a dispute, just now. So please leave me out of this until I'm at least involved, and know what you are arguing about, ok? dab (ᛏ) 10:33, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

By all means, take your time. I just didn't feel that Wiglaf's description of my motives was particularly accurate. I generally don't like when I get accused of being arrogant for voicing valid criticism. I'm most certainly not trying to be unfriendly. Peter Isotalo 10:37, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

Luckily, everyone can read the discussion and make up his mind about your attitude and the validity of your criticism.--Wiglaf 10:16, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

ok, I may show up trying to act Salomonic in a couple of days. Just not right now. peace, dab (ᛏ) 10:39, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Södertörn University College

I have rearranged the images and added captions. Moas båge should be "Moa's crescent" rather than "Moa's arch". There are a number of semicircular buildings like this in England, all as far as I know built during the Georgian period (although there are probably less known ones from later periods), and they are usually called crescents, with The Royal Crescent in Bath being the most famous example. Uppland 16:44, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sunds like reasonable argumentation to me. Thanks for the help. Peter Isotalo 16:46, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

Re: Chinese language(s)

It was brought up before the arbitration case was filed. But anyways thanks for reminding. I probably wouldn't say too much at the discussion there. — Insta ntnood 06:42, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

Finland-Swedish dialects

Hello, i started a discussion about the topic on Talk:Finland-Swedish#Dialects, feel free to comment if you feel like it. Greetings. bbx 16:49, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia

Hello Peter, it's me again.

Wouldn't it be wonderful to have a Swedish equivalent of Wikipedia:WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia? Perhaps you could bootstrap it or ask some other Swedish users, but the pronunciation files make me wonder what an entire text sounds like (-:. Gerrit M U T E 19:28, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but I've sorta given up on Swedish wiki for now because of all the trolls among the admins. I'm a bit too busy with the Phonetics Project and various phonologies right now, but I'll see if I can maybe make a recording of some FA I really like. Peter Isotalo 11:26, Apr 30, 2005 (UTC)

I think you slipped slightly here, that what you really mean is that there are a few really energetic trouble makers among ... With this modification I would have to agree with the characterization. --Etxrge 08:11, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

A request

I haven't got round to the whole Crime and Punishment revision yet, but I do have a small request. Could you make a pronunciation recording of Дми́трий Ива́нович Менделе́ев (Dmitri Mendeleev)? --Oldak Quill 17:56, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sardienik

Hej Peter/Karmosin! Är detta något du har koll på? Kanske t.o.m. talar språket :-). Det verkar vara hyfsat påhittat, kan du verifiera att så är fallet? Gunnar Larsson 18:25, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Artikeln du länkade till finns inte, men jag sökte på Google och fick bara upp gamla wikimirrors och inget annat. Jag har aldrig hört talas om språket, men jag är inte så bevandrad på mindre kända språk. Du borde kanske ta och fråga på Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages. Där finns det mycket kompetent folk. Peter Isotalo 13:33, May 2, 2005 (UTC)

Another naming issue

Considering the fact that we shared the same view on Swedish Trade Union Confederation, there is a discussion at Talk:Liberal Party (Denmark) that might be of interest to you. I would find it rather strange if we end up with a policy where Swedish organizations more frequently than organizations of other countries are placed under an English name, just because the Swedish ones have a habit of adopting an official English name. Well, see my comment over there - if you're interested. / Alarm 11:58, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

What's your view on the naming of the provinces of Sweden? Most of the names like Ostrobothnia or Nylandia doesn't seem in the least bit merited, but should rather have the Swedish names with the English titles being redirects. Peter Isotalo 12:20, May 1, 2005 (UTC)

I noticed that you've raised this issue at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Swedish provinces and to a large extent I share your view, although there are some problems that might need to be adressed before moving all the articles.

From a quick Google search it seems to me that Ostrobothnia (30,800 English-language hits) is far more common than Österbotten (688 hits), but I suppose most, if not almost all, of them refer to modern-day Ostrobothnia (region), which seem to use Ostrobothnia as an official English name. For purposes of clarity it could be argued that it would be reasonable to have them both use the same term (although I would then prefer to move Ostrobothnia (region) to Ostrobothnia and the current article at Ostrobothnia to Ostrobothnia (historic region)).

For Nylandia, where there isn't a present-day region of the same name, I notice Nyland outnumbers Nylandia by more than 5 to 1. For provinces in present-day Sweden, the figures are in favour of the Swedish names, but less so than I might have guessed (Medelpad 4,060, Medelpadia 1,910; Härjedalen 5,720, Herdalia 1,830; Uppland 28,400, Uplandia 14,200; Närke 10,700, Nericia 3,410). Considering the fact that many of the pages using Swedish names are probably written by Swedish users rather than native English users, I'm not entirely sure about moving them, although I definitely lean in that direction. / Alarm 14:10, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

What I've seen of the editing so far has convinced me that English translations are poorly motivated. Just look at what EB writes about the Swedish provinces. I would bet that most of the editors have never, ever used these term in real life, but just assume that they are correct because they are in English. As far as I know, the naming policies explain that you should use native names when discussing fairly obscure places. Gothenburg is ok, but Nylandia and Ostrobothnia is not.

Peter Isotalo 14:17, May 8, 2005 (UTC)

You're probably right. Although I tend to be the careful type, I certainly won't oppose a move if you would want to do it. / Alarm 14:44, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

I'll have a peek at it sooner or later. I need to get through my current RfC, though. I want to make sure that it's resolved properly before suggesting major changes of Sweden-related articles. Just have a look at Scania. My suggestion there was reverted rather briskly and with little motivation.

Peter Isotalo 14:52, May 8, 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and there's another naming discussion at Talk:Social Democratic Workers' Party of Sweden that I really would appreciate if you would have a look at. /Alarm 14:10, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Talk:Swedish phonology

You are right that these talk pages are starting to become very confusing for outsiders. There is alot of mediation going on in them now. I see that you have added a proposal for guidelines at the bottom of the mediation section and I have commented on your comment. Let's see if this leads somewhere and if not I will follow up your request on taking this to a new level in the dispute resolution process, provided there is a consensus that this is the best course of action. Inter\^Echo 12:35, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Voiceless uvular fricative

Do you have a good reference with regards to the changes you made in the German example? I was contacted by an editor on the German Wikipedia to let me know that voiceless velar fricative was not the standard pronunciation. Here is the reference she gave me [2]. It lists info on several different dialects. I would be interested to see if you have a reference that says otherwise. I am somewhat confused here, as most of the other info on the English Wikipedia does say velar. Perhaps the velar fricative came to be the standard broad transcription, but does not accurately reflect the majority of German speakers. CyborgTosser (Only half the battle) 21:18, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

No, that was just me confusing the velar and uvular fricatives. It was reverted by another editor as far as I know. Peter Isotalo 09:54, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

Oops, I didn't see the revert. Still, if you are knowledgeable in German phonology, you might want to participate in the discussion on Talk:Voiceless uvular fricative. Thanks. CyborgTosser (Only half the battle) 00:40, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

the Swedish wars

Thank you for your feedback, Peter. I really do think there will be progress if both sides are prepared to acknowledge their weaknesses and mistakes. And, after all, it is sometimes wiser to yield with good grace in what you consider a minor point, to accumulate some points of "compromising editor" credibility, and concentrate on what you consider a major point. dab (ᛏ) 10:03, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Old Swedish

Hi Peter, I can resume my work on the articles on Old Norse and Old Swedish if you accept the presentation I now will give you about languages vs. dialects. First of all, the standard definition of dialect vs. language is that speakers of two dialects can talk with each other and understand each other, like Stockholmers, Gothemburgians and Scanians. The standard definition of different languages is that speakers of different languages cannot understand each other if they have not learnt each other's language. Now, the problem with Swedish, Danish, Nynorsk and Bokmål is that they are only different languages for nationalistic reasons and for having independent written standards. If we have a look at Old Norse, Swedes, Icelanders, Norwegians and Danes could understand each other so well until the late Middle Ages that they considered themselves to speak the same language. Don't get hinged up on defining Old Swedish and Runic Swedish as "languages", it will only make the average educated American, Englishman or Australian completely misunderstand the relationship between Old Icelandic and Old Swedish, whereas the definition of these idioms as "dialects" will give them a more correct impression.--Wiglaf 14:14, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

I don't know if I've conveyed another opinion, but what you're saying here has been my notion all along, but with two minor exceptions:

Old Swedish doesn't coincide completely with Old Norse, since this stage is divided into two seperate periods; klassisk fornsvenska and yngre fornsvenska ("Classical Old Swedish" and "New Old Swedish"). The former is parallel to Old Norse (-1350), but the latter (1350-1526) is not. Were you thinking of redirecting Old Swedish to Old Norse, or are you just saying you want to point out that the difference was mainly dialectal?Peter Isotalo 19:49, May 12, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, as far as Old Norse is concerned the contemporary language of Sweden is best described as a dialect.--Wiglaf 09:04, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

The common varieties of Stockholm, Gothenburg or Skåne (as per your example) are not considered to be dialects, but rather varieties of Standard Swedish (rikssvenska). At least the term "dialect" is reserved for the rural dialects (sockenmål, bygdemål, landsmål, etc.).

Peter Isotalo 19:49, May 12, 2005 (UTC)

The standard Swedish varieties of Stockholm, Gothemburg and Skåne can be called varieties, but the everyday language in these places may have both phonetic, syntactic and lexical peculiarities, in respect to standard Swedish (especially as far as Scanian is concerned).--Wiglaf 09:04, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

In fact, by your definition, we should not even call runic Swedish a dialect of Old Norse, it was a variety. Cheers,--Wiglaf 09:39, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

This isn't my definition. This is what Swedish linguists are saying, and they seem to be quite unanimous about it. Let me quote you some sources:

Olle Engstrand (professor of phonetics at University of Stockholm), Fonetikens grunder (2004), pg, 120:

I svenskan har man dels skiftningar i standardspråket ('skånska', 'gotländska' eller 'dalmål'), dels stadsmål som 'stockholmska' eller 'göteborska'. Med 'dialekt' menar svenska dialektologer de 'bygdemål' eller 'landsmål' som går tillbaka på en obruten utveckling från fornnordiskan, ett ursprung som f.ö. delas av övriga skandinaviska dialekter - dessa bilder ett kontinuum, medan distinkta 'nationalspråk' som svenska, danska och norska är tämligen moderna konstruktioner.

English translation: In Swedish there are differences in the spoken varieties of the standard language ('Scanian', 'Gutnish' or 'Dalecarlian') as well as variations specific to certain cities like 'Stockholmska' or 'Göteborska'. By "dialect" Swedish dialectologists are refering to those local dialects that have a straight lineage that can be traced back to Old Norse, a history shared with all other Scandinavian dialects - these form a continuum while the distinct 'national languages' like Swedish, Danish and Norweigan are relativly recent constructions.

Cleas-Christian Elert (professor of phonetics at University of Umeå 1969-1988), Allmän och svensk fonetik (2000), pg, 34-36:

Sedan gammalt finns det inom det svenska språkområdet talspråksformer som används i en viss bygd, och som bara i begränsad utsträckning har påverkats av talspråket i centrala delar av Sverige eller av skriftspråket. Det är de genuina dialekterna.

[...]

Den talspråksform som en besökare på en ort möter mest, är emellertid inte den genuina dialekten utan en regional riksspråksvariant. Ibland talar man om riksspråk i regionala skiftningar eller med regional färgning. I motsats till den genuina dialekten överensstämmer de regionala riksspråksvarianterna när det gäller ordböjning och syntax nästan helt med riksspråket. Så är också fallet med ordförrådet även om förekomsten av enstaka lokala ord eller uttryck kan vara påfallande. Men det är framför allt i uttalet av vokaler och vissa konsonanter samt i satsintonation som de regionala riksspråkvarianterna avviker från det centrala riksspråket. I allmänhet är de i de avseendena lika de genuina dialekterna inom samma region. De regionala riksspråkvarianterna skiljer sig inte starkt från trakt till trakt som de genuina dialekterna gör.

[...]

Sammantaget har dessa krafter lett fram till att den alldeles övervägande delen av dem som pratar svenska använder regionala riksspråksvarianter, och att dessa närmat sig till den [sic] centrala riksspråket.

English translation: For a long time there has existed speech varieties within the Swedish language area which are used only in certain communities and which have only been slightly influenced by the spoken varieties of central Sweden or by the written language. These are the genuine dialects [the bold type is in the book].

[...]

The variety of language that a visitor to a community encounters most of the time is not the genuine dialect but a regional speech variety [again Elert's bolding]. Sometimes the standard language is described as having regional influences. Contrary to the genuine dialects, the regional varieties are almost identical to the central standard language ["det centrala riksspråket"] in terms of inflection and syntax. Vocabulary is usually also more or less identical, though some local deviations do exist. It is above all the pronunciation of vowels and consonants as well as prosody of the regional variations that deviate from the standard language. Generally these are similar to the genuine dialects within the same region. The regional standard varieties do not differ as much from one community to another as the genuine dialects.

[...]

Added together these facts have resulted that the vast majority of those who speak Swedish use regional varieties of the standard language and that these have become more similar to the central standard language.

Just to ensure you (and anyone else following this discussion) that I'm not quoting some fringe linguists with anti-regionalist agendas, this is what Östen Dahl, professor of general linguistics at University of Stockholm, says in the online version for Nationalencyklopedin, when answering a question from a reader about the concept of Standard Swedish (rikssvenska):

Det förnekas inte såvitt jag kan se att ett svenskt standardspråk skulle existera. Problemet är väl snarast hur pass stor variation man anser vara förenligt med ett standardspråk. Språkvetare brukar tala om "regionala standardspråksvarianter" (alt. "rikspråksvarianter") som innefattar t.ex. stockholmska, göteborgska, skånska och norrländska varianter av svenska. De uttalsangivelser som ges t.ex. i NE:s ordbok är inte mer precisa än att de i allmänhet är förenliga med alla de här varianterna. I allmänhet handlar det ju om att ange uttalet av ovanliga ord som folk är osäkra på (till exempel "genre") snarare än att tvinga på någon det "rätta" uttalet av vanliga ord. Sen kan det diskuteras om det också finns en "dialektfri" svenska. Det finns nog en variant som folk uppfattar som neutral, och det är fortfarande den som man strävar efter i många sammanhang, i synnerhet i radio och TV. Men den är egentligen mest något slags utslätad mälardalsvariant, så att geografiskt neutral är den egentligen inte.

English translation: As far as I know, it is not denied that a Swedish standard language exists. The problem is rather how much variation is allowed within a standard language. Linguists usually talk about "regional standard language varieties", that include for example variants of Swedish specific to Stockholm, Gothenburg, Skåne or Norrland. The pronunciations given for NE's dictionary are not more generally more specific than that they are consistent with all these variants. Generally it is more about providing pronunciations of rare words which people are unsure of (for example "genre") rather than forcing "correct" pronunciation of common words. It is debatable whether there is a "dialect-free" Swedish. There is a variant that people perceive as neutral, and this is still something that people strive for in many contexts, in particular on radio and TV. But this is more of a bland Central Swedish variant, so it's not geographically neutral.

Of course just like many other languages, the dividing lines between dialects and regional varieties are not razor sharp, and this is pointed out by both Elert and Engstrand later on. I have begun to describe this in Swedish language, and I'm not denying that it still needs some work. However, the difference between the "genuine dialects" and the localized varieties of Standard Swedish seem to be undeniable and the dichotomy needs to be explained. That this is the case with modern Swedish is, however, not the least bit relevant to the various dialects of Old Norse, and I would not assume to use the same terms in that context.

Peter Isotalo 17:59, May 13, 2005 (UTC)

Thank you very much for helping out with the expansion of the History section.

You're welcome! :).--Wiglaf 12:44, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Win2k and PR

Cheers mate. Have commented on PR page. - Ta bu shi da yu 02:53, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

WW2

Well, I will try to help with the article. I am a bit scared by the amount of editing and vandalism it gets - it is half impossible to keep track with the changes. Sometimes vandalism can happen in the mid of one's editing... Still, yes, I think we can work together to improve it. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 13:29, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Mmm, I can imagine. But considering how many others that are wathcing, I think we might just be able to do it. I'm looking for some good seperate sources on things like the Holocaust and the Gulag right now and then I'll scrutnize the temporary version as best I can. I'll try to make a good todo-list to get us properly focused.

Peter ^Isotalo 13:37, May 21, 2005 (UTC)

Frankfurt International Airport

I'm sorry to change the caption to the photo of the tunnel you recently added, but if I'm not completely mistaken, there is no tunnel connection between Terminals 1 and 2. The people mover mentioned in the article is the SkyLine train which operates automatically and uses tracks above ground. If I visit the airport the next time, I'll try to take a photo and add it (I live near the airport). --Chrysalis 16:10, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

I was just guessing about the location of the people mover, so plese correct it, but I'm positive it was not above ground. Do you mean that the picture I took was in a tunnel that was raised somehow?

Peter ^Isotalo 18:52, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

There are definitely people movers in tunnels inside the terminals like your picture, only there is no direct connection between the two main terminals via tunnel. To get from Terminal 1 (concourses A,B,C) to Terminal 2 (concourses D,E), you could use a bus or the SkyLine train. --Chrysalis 05:01, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

I see. Well, I hope you can figure out which one it is then. Thanks for the pointer.

Peter ^Isotalo 06:18, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

Common phrases in various languages

Hi! The VfD Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Common phrases in various languages seems to be badly constructed in that you suggested a Transwiki move to Wikitravel as an alternative. This is not possible due to licenses differences (Wikitravel is not a Wikimedia project and does not use GFDL). I have no opinion about the actual deletion issue. Being a novice here, I'm uncertain what the appropriate procedure to apply at this point is. -- Cjensen 08:11, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out. I've adressed the issue in the VfD comment.

Peter ^Isotalo 11:16, May 24, 2005 (UTC)

Can you drop in at IRC already please?

--Bishonen | talk 14:28, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Map of Chinese dialects

Sorry, I didn't find the data file I'd need, and I'm rather short on time to pursue it much right now. I'll keep it on the back burner if you don't find another source, though. -- Kbh3rd 15:17, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

That's ok. Chinese language isn't really a priority for me right now either. I'll probably get to work on it during summer or perhaps the coming Fall when I start taking Mandarin college classes. I felt that I needed better knowledge of the subject after I requested that Peer Review last time.

Thanks for notifying me, though!

Peter ^Isotalo 18:42, May 24, 2005 (UTC)

swedish provinces

Hi Peter -- I agree that the moves are probably uncontroversial, but I don't have the time to do that right now (and I don't think it's terribly urgent), so I suppose you file a move request after all, and see if that leads to quicker results. regards, dab (ᛏ) 07:26, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

The Great Vowel Shock

Hi, Pete, I found my own reference to the amusing DN column on Swedish phonetics for immigrants that I mentioned before, I had dropped it on Steve Rapaport's page on the day the column was in the paper, 10 Jan. So, if you've got a real library within reach, you could read it, if you like. It was quite, uh, striking. Best, Bishonen | talk 03:23, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Infobox colors

Sorry Peter, I thought I was on the talk page. My mistake, of course my comment was misplaced there, I've removed it. I will bring it up on the talk page. Again sorry. Paul August ☎ 17:53, May 27, 2005 (UTC)

Europa (moon) pronunciation

Thanks for the note; unfortunately I can't open .ogg files with my archaic computer, so I don't know what it sounds like. - MPF 13:23, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

You sure? All you need is latest version of WinAmp. Doesn't that work on most comps? Peter ^Isotalo 13:25, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

I'll have another try later (going offline now) - MPF 13:37, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks; worked OK after I associated ogg with winamp. Sounds fine to me - MPF 16:58, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

Talk:Gustav II Adolph of Sweden

I do object to your changes. The use of WP:RM states "Approval voting is encouraged for page moves requested on this page." Please have a look at the the talk page under WP:RM for a more detailed discussion of why it is necessary with multiple choices. If having read the page "approval voting" there is anything you do not undesand I will be happy to discuss it with you. Philip Baird Shearer 14:57, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

Discussion at WP:FAC Talk

You might be interested in this discussion. Phils 21:04, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

Pronunciation guides as a Wikibook?

Would it make sense to move the X pronunciation pages to Wikibooks and add links from the X language and/or X phonology pages? Grika 21:24, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

Sound like a great idea to me. I suggest linking it from the main language page, since the phonology articles are probably not going to be read by all that many users. Why not bring it up at Wikipedia:WikiProject Language Template as well? I think it would be a great idea for a standard external link in all language articles. You have my full support.

Peter ^Isotalo 21:33, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

FAC

Please comment at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Starfleet ranks and insignia. I'm particularly worried that the article goes into more detail than almost all readers would be interested in reading (not going into so much detail is a FAC criteria). Thus longer sections should be summarized and the detail spun off into daughter articles, allowing readers to zoom to that level of detail if they so choose. Having this much detail in a fancruft FA would set a bad precedent, IMO. --mav 16:40, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

User:GeneralEndicott

Vandal account blocked indefinitely. I go strikeout abuse FAC vote. Bishonen | talk 15:12, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Danish dialects"

My guess is that you would be interested in taking a look at Danish language#Danish Dialects of Sweden, Smalandsk and Hallandsk. / Alarm 17:41, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Heja!

Featured Article! Peter rules! Bishonen | talk 11:32, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Congratulations! (Du fick den i hamn!) :)--Wiglaf 11:36, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, guys. I'm still going to amend Mark's and Ta bu shi's minor objections, though.

Peter ^Isotalo 12:55, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)

I concur with the congrats. Oh Messiah, tell us, where willst thou let thee shiny feathers glow, which page will thou enrichen now, thou Savior? --Fred-Chess 14:33, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm working on World War II as we speak. I hope to get World War II/temp to replace the overly detailed and warcrufty actual article as soon as I'm done copyediting and checking it. After that it's going to be a looong process to get it properly referenced.

I'm also very interested in bringing pornography to FA status. It'll be interesting to see if that's actually possible, what with all the misconceptions and prejudices surrounding the subject. Not to mention the constant need to beat off (pun intended) all the porn nerds and immature vandals...

Peter ^Isotalo 17:27, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)

Ok, its good to have auch a superior editor in our camp. How could we ever live without you? If you ever have any interest in being a team player and not only act according to your own fancies, you should consider enlisting at Wikipedia:Sweden Wikipedians' notice board. Seriously. You make qualified, but autocratic, edits. --Fred-Chess 18:04, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Swedish language and phonology

For a variety of reasons I've been without 'net access the last few weeks, and even now I'm only back via dial-up. I'll try to have the dialect map finished and uploaded soon. As far as the diphthong chart goes, I don't have any information on them yet, so email me the skinny and I'll get on it. IceKarma ॐ 01:14, 2005 Jun 3 (UTC)

Standardized sound tables

I vaguely remember a way to convert html table markup to wikitable markup. Would that make it more easy? I can't be of much help now, since I'm just leaving for a wikivacation. Keep up the good work! Kind regards, — mark ✎ 17:33, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sounds

Can you please make spoken pronunciations only for languages you speak natively or know extremely well?? I love your stuff, but please slow down.

If you're refering to the Mandarin pronunciation of PRC, I acted on a specific request over at my userpage at Commons. Other than that I stick to Swedish, Russian and the occasional German sound file.

Peter ^Isotalo 07:42, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

IPA template in tables

Okay, Peter. Makes sense to me. I got the tiebars right at first, but then something was wrong with the way my comp (or maybe Firefox or something, I'm not sure) displayed them, so I got a little confused. Take care. --Whimemsz 19:39, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

Vowel charts

All 14 done, installed into 10 of 13 articles (not done: Japanese, Portuguese, Turkish). Enjoy! IceKarma ॐ 06:46, 2005 Jun 8 (UTC)

Brilliant! Karma, you are a godsent. I guess you noticed that Japanese phonology already has a vowel chart...

Peter ^Isotalo 13:44, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)

Today's FA

Swedish language is today's Featured article, good job and congratulations :) bbx 02:24, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Feminist?

Hi there, Peter. I noticed that you have used the word 'feminist' to describe yourself. Wouldn't you agree that the term 'philogynist' is more politically correct? 'Feminism' derives in part from the latin root-prefix 'miso' which often represents hatred. Philogyny is a better term to use, in my opinion. Just letting you know my opinion, that's all, heh. Eric 11:14, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

I don't think "feminism" will ever sound more aggressive than you actually let it. A few over-zealous and extremist gender seperatists should not merit a change of terms.

Peter ^Isotalo 21:14, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

You're pretty much right about that part... :) Eric 11:44, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

Learn something new every day, though...

Peter ^Isotalo 18:42, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

Hi, Riorio suggested that I contact you. I am looking for some soundfiles of placename pronunciations. If you have any, or made any, please let me know here. Thanks. Danny 21:25, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Look under each language sub category at commons:category:pronunciation. I haven't been through the them lately, but out of the few languages I've been working with, Swedish and Russian has at least a 100 between them, Japanese and Chinese a few and a handful in Arabic, Portuguese and Quechua.

Dutch has over 3,000 so far and German might have something close to that, but they are both exceptions.

Peter ^Isotalo June 29, 2005 22:33 (UTC)

Swedish Wikipedians' notice board

I can see that Fred mentioned Swedish Wikipedians' notice board some time ago, in a previous post here. You haven't signed up, but perhaps you're watching the page anyway? I've updated the page and have the intention to broaden its scope to all issues relevant to Swedish topics. I think it might be useful to use the page as a place for communication between Wikipedians working on such topics - keeping track of ongoing debates and votes relating to Swedish articles, and listing "weak spots" in order to attract the attention of someone knowledgeable in a specific area. So, in case you come across something that might be relevant, it would be very helpful if you took the time to post it there. / Alarm 29 June 2005 22:16 (UTC)

A lot of users from Swedish Wikipedia have joined the notice board recently. I have had a very stressful and upsetting experience with that and it involved some of the people who have joined the board so far. I think I'm hanging back until I see how the notice board works out. So I'll just watch for now.

Peter ^Isotalo June 29, 2005 22:39 (UTC)

OK, I fully understand that. If you should come across something interesting related to Swedish matters, you're still welcome to post it to the notice bord, or, if you prefer, to my talk page. / Alarm 30 June 2005 09:43 (UTC)

Naming conventions

I'm looking into the North Germanic / Scandinavian issue. In the meantime, I'd be curious to know your thoughts about Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (languages)#Proposed addition. Regards, — mark ✎ 30 June 2005 12:13 (UTC)

Vanilla Ninja

Hey. I reverted your changes to Vanilla Ninja. You Wikilinked the band members, even though they don't have articles. They redirect back to Vanilla Ninja, making it a self-reference. Just thought i'd explain the revert. Hedley 2 July 2005 14:30 (UTC)

You're quite welcome to create stubs instead. If the band is notable enough, then so are the individual members. I'll do it by tomorrow, but I wouldn't mind if you beat me to it.

Peter ^Isotalo July 2, 2005 15:17 (UTC)

East Danish

Hi Peter, I saw that you question the grouping of Scanian with the Bornholm dialect and the classification of Scanian as an East Danish dialect. I am afraid I have no references at hand, but this is exactly what I learnt at school, and I do believe that the claims are quite legitimate.--Wiglaf 6 July 2005 13:02 (UTC)

I think I really want references for this one, if only on the talkpage, considering all the pretty blatant anti-Swedish, pro-Danish sentiment I've seen among Scanian editors here on Wikipedia. By school, btw, do you mean elementary/high school or university?

Peter ^Isotalo July 6, 2005 13:05 (UTC)

High school, and BTW, I am also fed up with Danish POV-pushers.--Wiglaf 6 July 2005 13:09 (UTC)

I've browsed the shelves at the library at SU in search for reference material for Danish language, and I'll probably be going there again before they go on vacation next week. If no one beats me to it, I'll look for sources on the Bornholm dialect and its relation to the southern Swedish ones.

You're very welcome to contribute with your knowledge of Old Norse for the Danish article, by the way. Or for that matter, any part of it. I'm going to make another attempt at an FAC with this one as well.

Peter ^Isotalo July 6, 2005 13:15 (UTC)

Thanks, I will stay away from Scandinavian language matters in the future, since you have shown me the depths of my incompetence.--Wiglaf 8 July 2005 15:21 (UTC)

Scandinavian

Peter, I am surprised with you. You seem to have very strong feelings about the categorization of the North Germanic languages. Would you care to tell me what you find so offensive?--Wiglaf 8 July 2005 10:47 (UTC)

It is a fact that they are often called one and the same language [3][4][5][6], etc.

When Swedes, Danes and Norwegians meet in one group, it is considered polite to speak in the Scandinavian language, and Danes may take offense if Swedes find the Danish pronounciation hard to understand and want to speak English instead.

Now, what is your problem?--Wiglaf 8 July 2005 10:49 (UTC)

I know several prominent professors of Scandinavian languages, such Lars-Gunnar Andersson, Henrik Williams and Fridell, and I can assure you that they are much less dogmatic about this categorization.--Wiglaf 8 July 2005 10:55 (UTC)

If they support the classification, then you should reference it properly.

Peter ^Isotalo 8 July 2005 14:31 (UTC)

Yes, you're right. Since they are only called one language by some politicians and by some common folks, that POV is completely irrelevant. Thanks for explaining the concept of NPOV.--Wiglaf 8 July 2005 15:12 (UTC)

Land drift

Fanfare: Svealand has moved! I have some concerns about Götaland, however. It might be a good idea to merge the existing Gotland and Öland articles with the provincial Gotland and Öland, unless you have a better solution. And the original Skåne article—Skåne alone—looks to me to have been copy-paste moved by Mic to Scania in 2003, unfortunately. Owwwwwww—howling like a wolf—"History merge", ouch! And there's the Finnish aspects of some Norrland provinces, also. Anyway, let's have a word on IRC when convenient. Bishonen | talk 8 July 2005 20:22 (UTC)

Thanks for Sturman

Hey, this is a belated thank you for writing the Sturman article. I put in a request for it (I don't know if you were responding to that or just acting spontaneously) and I appreciate your work, you did a great job. --Camipco 8 July 2005 21:32 (UTC)

Just a coincidence, actually, but glad to be of assistance.

Peter ^Isotalo 8 July 2005 23:30 (UTC)

Land drift objected to

Please see Wikipedia talk:Swedish Wikipedians' notice board and Talk:Skåne for a discussion of the name changes. Bishonen | talk 11:30, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

m:Don't be a dick is not a policy, Mr Genius, and it's very subjective assessment, Mr. Genius, just telling me, may be the behaviour of a dick.. :-) Panta rei, --Fred-Chess 13:43, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

You certainly are sharp, Fred. Usually, "don't be a dick" is presented to those that are being rude and obnoxious without actually breaking any official policy. However, Wikipedia:Civility, Wikipedia:No personal attacks, Wikipedia:Cite your sources and Wikipedia is not a democracy (we don't have an obligation to ask you for permission to edit if we have both majority support and proper references on ourside) are policies but you don't seem to care much about them. 'Til you do, I'll simply ignore your snide remarks and unfounded protests 'til you come to your senses.

And before you decide to further damage your reputation by protesting, just "Mr Genius" is enough to be considered a pretty bad incivility.

Peter ^Isotalo 14:01, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

An outside opinion on the Scania/Skåne debate

As I've now told Fred, starting a debate about a recent change by saying that one of the people involved is "a genius who knows everything best" isn't very constructive. I hope Fred can learn from this episode and use a more diplomatic approach in the future. I'd also like to ask you to be the bigger man and not join in the name-calling. While I can understand your response to his remarks, calling someone a dick just tend to escalate things. You are very good at presenting rational arguments and facts. Try to stay cool and keep to them, even when under attack. I'm convinced that will be the most efficient approach in the long run.

Also, I'll have to make a comment about your statement on Talk:Skåne - "to say that this is a matter that should mainly be brought up with other Swedes is ridiculous". While I agree that it shouldn't mainly be discussed with other Swedes, it might be valuable to discuss it with them. A significant number of people following the Swedish Wikipedians' notice board might be able to provide input to the issue at hand. Some of them might not have noticed the debate, and posting a brief notice of the plans on the notice board before implementing them would have done no harm. Which, of course, is not the same as saying that such a procedure is in any way mandatory when dealing with Swedish issues - it's just a way of maximizing community input and participation. Which, I believe, also tend to maximize quality in the long run. / Alarm 16:52, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

"Don't be a dick" was very well-deserved and is acceptable practice when people behave like it. It's semi-policy and can't be considered mere name-calling. Hell, I wouldn't even call it uncivil. Considering the politeness and patience I've offered Fred so far, I doubt anyone but my bitterest enemies would ever try to call it a policy offense.

As for notifying Swedes about the issue, yes, sure it could be an idea. But I really doubt that's what Fred meant. We might as well post it at any other forum that deals with geography or naming policies. In fact, calling upon people who have dealt with these issues before would be better. What I'm trying to focus on is that this is not a Swedish issue; it's a naming policy issue.

Peter ^Isotalo 17:03, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Acceptable practice or not, calling someone a dick is perhaps not always helpful. However, as I said, I find it perfectly understandable, and I haven't accused you of breaching policy. Still, I would consider it name-calling, and I'd like to see some credible academic sources claiming the opposite. :-) / Alarm 17:21, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Trying to beat me at my own game, eh? Silence, you measly Swedish dog, for I am The Authocrat!

Peter ^Isotalo 17:30, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Hebrew language

Hebrew has no affricates? What about /ts/? Good work improving it, in any case :) --Whimemsz 03:28, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

There are tentative affricates in loanwords like "jeep" and "chips", but they might just as well be considered a normal two-phoneme combo.

Peter ^Isotalo 03:38, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I don't dispute that. I mean, what about /ts/. As in eretz or Tzion? --Whimemsz 02:30, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

I'm using The handbook of the IPA as a source, and for whatever reason they seem to think that affricates aren't phonemic in Hebrew. Other than that I don't know enough Hebrew to make my own analysis.

Peter ^Isotalo 03:40, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Burmese phonology

Sure; can you give me an example of a phonology table I can use as a pattern? --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 15:02, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Never mind, already did it. Take a look: Burmese language#Phonology. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 08:54, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Renal failure

Three users have responded on Talk:Renal failure. Please do not revert again. JFW | T@lk 12:26, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

MediaWiki tables

Hej (I hope I'm apologized for keeping to Swedish)
Jag försöker begripa mig på hur syntaxen är när man gör tabeller i MediaWiki utan html-kodning. Jag såg att du skapat en mall sv:Mall:Fintabell, så därför frågar jag dig var du hittat dokumentation av grundstrukturen för tabeller, eller annars om du kan ge en lite beskrivning.

Svara helst på svwiki. RaSten 03:36, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Translation: I'm trying to understand how the syntax works for tables in MediaWiki without html-coding. I saw that you made a template at sv:Mall:Fintabell, so I'm therefore asking your where you found the documentation for the basic structure of tables, or just explain the matter. Reply at svwiki if possible.

You're welcome to use Swedish as long as you don't mind me translating and answering in English, RaSten. I won't, however, reply at sv: since I'm not participating. You pretty much know the reasons for that...

Anwyay, sv:Mall:Fintabell is based on Template:prettytable. All I did was to (almost) duplicate it and create a Swedish equivalent. I wouldn't be able to explain much about tables, since my modus operandi has been to simply copy what already exists and then fiddling with it as best I can. I've never really used any kind of html before I joined the wikis so my knowledge of it all is still very base.

There are however, instructions on how to handle tables at Wikipedia:Tables. If it doesn't already exist over at sv:, it might be appropriate to translate it to Swedish. Also do try to read up on Wikipedia:Avoid using meta-templates. I don't use {{prettytable}} or anything like it anymore because it apparantly causes unnecessary server load.

Peter ^Isotalo 10:56, 16 July 2005 (UTC)