User talk:Graubert

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Alina Smith

Your recent edits to Alina Smith have been reverted because they do not conform to wikipedia's policy on maintaining a neutral point of view. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a fansite, and all information must be properly sourced. If you have any questions, feel free to drop me a line on my talk page, and I'll be glad to try and help. Thanks! Snowfire51 (talk) 21:08, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Huh? I made the entry from a fan bio to a fact-based piece. Did you even bother to actually look at the writing and compare the versions? I did not change ANYTHING WHATSOVER that added facts. Moreover, my knowledge of this subject is personal, having worked with the subject and in fact actually written much of the original entry in another context. Also, frankly, rather than simply "reverting" something for lack of citations, why not leave it and indicate where citations are needed?

Exactly. It's quite apparent you have a personal interest in this subject, which means you're not a neutral source. A few days ago, I pared down most of the non-encyclopedic entries in the article, and sources were found for the rest. Fansite material and terms shouldn't be a part of wikipedia. Snowfire51 (talk) 21:29, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. You added "Most recently, Alina was named Vocalist of the Month by the website SingerUniverse.com." That's certainly noteworthy, although it needed a reference. However, you added "an honor made all the more significant considering that the site's advisory board includes some of the music industry's top producers and A&R heads, a nice distinction given that it comes prior to releasing her first commercial album." This is original research, and is non-encyclopedic. Snowfire51 (talk) 21:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Know what? I tried and put considerable time in, and you simply dropped it. This is extremely irksome and really seems abusive, quite frankly. You could have taken what I wrote and edited it yourself, instead. But I guess that would have taken more effort than arbitrarily dropping it. The reference to the Vocalist of the Month FACT is the website. Go to it and on the first page is her photo, though being January it will eventually get replaced by this month's winner. As to the addition that you mention, the detail about the site's advisory board is CERTAINLY objective and worth adding. I tried to make it non-promotional, but obviously not enough to satisfy you. Your efforts at editing are appreciated, and the page says this is autobiographical and requires more - well, I'm not Alina. I added more. Or is there a rule at Wikipedia that somehow people who ACTUALLY KNOW THE FACTS about the subject cannot contribute?

Yes, that's exactly the rule. Information in Wikipedia has to be verifiable through secondary sources. Personal knowledge is not sufficient, that's counted as original research and unverifiable, thus is has no place in an encyclopedia. If you'll look, I also spent considerable time cleaning this article up in hopes of keeping it in Wikipedia, because as of a few days ago, it was nothing more than a fansite. I made some changes to your edits (and the rest of this page), and some things were deleted because they were not appropriate for an encyclopedia. I left the reference about SingerUniverse.com in there because its a valid point, although it needs a proper reference. The rest is completely original research. Please don't take this as a personal attack, I'm only trying to get (and keep) the page up to wikipedia standards. Snowfire51 (talk) 04:04, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. I won't take it so personally, and I see the points you make, and again, apreciate your efforts. What I hope you'll understand is that I found the entry at random and was spurred to edit it precisely in order to seek to make it less fansite-like. Actually, the initial info was taken from a bio written by me, not an autobio, even though it was apparently submitted by the subject, which is in her press kit. The initial research on that was verified wherever possible, or from sources other than her, yet not in the way which would be suited to Wikipedia. Anyway, my frustration came from your trashing the contribution wholesale with the ironic point that it was too fansite-like. Again, my purpose was to make it LESS SO! In any event, I'll just let it go, the piece is fine as a start. I'm sure that, as a starting piece on the subject, given that her career is new, this article will ultimately take on a very different shape as more facts of interest/relevance occur (which are not editorial in nature and which hopefully will include citations). I'd certainly like to think that, now that I am more versed in the rules as such, I can add to the piece in the future in an acceptable manner (i.e., with citations, just-the-facts, etc.). By the way, the correction to "more than a million hits" is in fact correct. There are TWO myspace pages, one created when the original page became temporarily inaccessible due to a Myspace technical glitch. The other is myspace.com/alinasmith. Together they have over a million hits. I tried to add the two pages to the citation, but found myself unable to edit that :)

Cool. I can see where we got off on a bad note, glad we've ben able to work things out. Thanks for your last corrections, I missed a word or two in there. Your additions to the page added a lot, and I look forward to working with you and watching this page develop. Take care! Snowfire51 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 04:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! You, too, and by the way, Happy New Year!

Polina Such (Polina Sukhinina)

Your recent edits to Polina Such (Polina Sukhinina) have been reverted because you erase fact-based part of bio and career. If the facts are true, they can not be slander. These facts also do not apply to private information, as are information about a career, not his personal life. Photos and videos, which are linked, are not private property. They are owned by companies that own these sites. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wrvasd (talk • contribs) 07:25, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

REPLY: this would ordinarily be the case, but it is not that simple in this case for the following important reason. The tort (legal liability cause of action) for "Public Disclosure of Private Facts" considers several things. In this case, it would certainly be relevant, and in my opinion (as an attorney) determinative to the case on this point, that the above information, while factual, was intended to be private since the subject used one or more pseudonyms obviously for privacy purposes. Indeed, the footnoted websites referenced for authority use those pseudonyms rather than the real name. Given the reputational harm, the entry should properly be removed. Even if it is Wikipedia's policy (and legal judgment) not to recognize a pseudonym that is maintained as distinct in such circumstances, it is wrong to include. Use of pseudonyms for such purposes is obviously intended to maintain privacy. I would think that Wikipedia would be respectful of that, especially for a semi-public, rather than fully public, individual. But, I will not seek to change this again if the reply to this is contrary. I have no personal stake here, incidentally, yet would consider that the motivation of anyone who would include this information may in fact be malicious. Thank you.

I want to draw your attention that the name of the article is a pseudonym. Thus, the reasoning offered a way to be removed the entire article as revealing privacy. Perhaps you are right, and the text of the article should remove aliases. The problem is that in this case, we first have to change the title.--Wrvasd (talk) 14:03, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree that the name of the article should be the subject's real name since she uses that name. In fact, within the article the real name appears to be used as such. At most, the fashion model pseudonym ("Such") should be referenced. Clearly, the fashion model pseudonym, since it was adopted by the subject herself, is not an attempt to keep private identity information about the subject. Presumably enough, it is merely an effort to Americanize an otherwise foreign sounding Russian surname, a classic reason for entertainer name changes, whatever one might think of that or the name choice itself. Whereas, the "adult industry" website pseudonyms are for privacy. The damages from this no doubt ill-conceived effort, in this person's case, to move out of desperate poverty in Siberia should not be visited upon her by Wikipedia, I think. And, these should not be underestimated. Indeed, I submit to you that it is precisely such damages which the tort of "Public dissemination of private facts" is intended to address. It would be one thing if the information here is widely known, but it is not. Moreover, the legal test of whether or not the "facts" are "public" is not some availability. I think it would be good policy for Wikipedia to err on the side of privacy protection, at least with non-public or (as here) semi-public figures. Wikipedia, which is a primary resource, should not be ahead of the curve on outing people. Again, thank you for consideration of this.

It is not clear why are you trying to remove the obviously correct information, if (as you say) you have no personal interest. What sense to protect any person, if you do not know her opinion? It is likely that she, being a model, a positive attitude to the data. And stop point to some laws. This information is not defamatory (because these links are already in the public domain), slander (because it is true), or disclosing personal life (because it's not about the private life, and in addition to the article itself says about Polina Such, not Paulina Sukhinina). We have already discussed, and should not be repeated. And what is this "desperate poverty in Siberia," you say? So you additional supporting information in the article - Sukhinina was forced to work as porn actress because of poverty? According to unconfirmed information, it has also worked in escort services (prostitute). It is possible that she still has such a service. Do you have information about this?

I would advise the moderator or whoever is inserting this tortious material to see the following on point regarding the tort of Public Dissemination of Private Facts: http://www.citmedialaw.org/legal-guide/publication-private-facts. As this article (and Wikipedia's own entry on the family of defamation torts, of which this is one) makes clear, to be actionable legally - that is, for the person asserting such facts publicly - these facts need not be false. Indeed, they are true. The legal standard (as the article and all of the common law opinions make clear) is that the subject facts are of a nature that a reasonable person would find them offensive. I quote from this article:

A plaintiff must establish four elements to hold someone liable for publication of private facts:

   1. Public Disclosure: The disclosure of facts must be public. Another way of saying this is that the defendant must "give publicity" to the fact or facts in question.
   2. Private Fact: The fact or facts disclosed must be private, and not generally known.
   3. Offensive to a Reasonable Person: Publication of the private facts in question must be offensive to a reasonable person of ordinary sensibilities.
   4. Not Newsworthy: The facts disclosed must not be newsworthy. Stated differently, the facts disclosed must not be a matter of legitimate public concern.

As of this latest reversion, I have contacted the subject about this matter, who is an acquaintance. She has asked me to represent her as an attorney to pursue her immediate interest in holding liable Wikipedia and/or any individual included this material, which is not otherwise public within the meaning of the related first and second elements of the cause of action (see above, and further exposition on the cited page). The third prong of the cause of action is clear. As to the fourth prong, the facts at issue here are not "a matter of legitimate public concern" as would be clear to any fact-finder (i.e., judge or juror) evaluating this in the light of existing caselaw.

I have advised the subject that this matter must be further pursued in the event this material re-appears, which is her right. I hope that Wikipedia will consult its policies with respect to this issue and do what is necessary to avoid further damages to the subject so that it will not be necessary for her to take further action to protect herself.

You have ever tried to make questionable changes in other articles. It looks like you do not fully understand the meaning of existence Wikipedia as encyclopedia. If anyone tries to censor it, striking out the facts that he did not like, this site can be closed, as unnecessary. Wikipedia - not a fansite and is not a social network. If the facts are confirmed, they are not removed. Obviously, Pauline Sukhinina not deny the truth of the information? By the way, she confirmed the additional facts that have been mentioned? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wrvasd (talk • contribs) 20:01, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Replaceable fair use File:Alina Smith Photo 070513.jpeg

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Incorrectly using minor edits check box

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This is a minor edit that you made. You added a missing word "the".

This is not a minor edit, but is an example of your incorrectly using minor edits check box. You added that he had been "mutilated and castrated" and gave a source for this information. The edit was a good edit, but it was not a minor edit. -- Toddy1 (talk) 18:23, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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