User talk:Dmhball~enwiki
Ok, thanks. There are some things we're not going to agree on but that's normal. If I had made use of this method to begin with difficulties wouldn't have arisen. I was out of order with the most recent edit I made; I fully apologise for that. Note: my suggestions are only suggestions, if they're taken up fine, if not, same. It's not neccessary to let me know, but thanks. I dont know what the protocol is for these things, but you can retain or delete the replies I've made here on your user page as you prefer. Thank you.
new entry
[edit]Thanks for your reply, Dmhball. Ok, firstly - yes, there were strong elements of homophobia amongst a minority of C.'s critics at the time who probably would not have made any comment had the acts been between an adult man and sixteen year old girls. Lots of people have turned a blind eye or at least tempered their disaproval in the past at these cases. I think we have emerged from a time when these things were semi-accepted (I'm talking about sexual relatiinships between adultsand teens, not sexuality) It is now, thankfully, utterly unacceptable for men to have these kinds of relationships with girls of those ages. And the majority of people - certainly the younger generation - think the same of those that occur in a same-sex setting. But there was, at the time, a narrative that adult-teen sexual relationships should be permitted in a gay suituation. We have seen it defended numerous times, whether by pulling out examples from the classical world or by its adult apologists saying that they would have welcomed the attention of an older man when they were teens. Attempts have been made to make this equivalent to normal homosexuality - not least by C. himself; his apology consisted of saying sorry "if his homosexual lifestyle offended anybody". This is deeply offensive, implying that homosexuality encompasses his acts. In past times something like this would have drawn opprobrium because of the same sex issue and not the adult-teen imbalance, and defenders of C have attempted to pretend that this is still the case.
The age issue. I am aware that a British paper made unsubstantiated claims that one of C.'s victims was 15 and this was withdrawn. As far as I am aware there is no dispute that the remainder were 16 and 17. Sixteen year-olds are minors. Sexual acts between adults and males or females of that age are illegal in Ireland, though not Nepal. There is no question of defending them outside of the kind of discourse that seeks to lower the consent age in these perameters. The charity issue. This would be reason enough to merit very strong criticism had the situation involved adults reliant on the benefices of the charity. As has happened, I think, in similar cases involving Oxfam quite recently.
(Note: "after investigation failed to come up with any evidence to suggest that any of the young men (not "boys") were under the legal age of consent, whether under Irish or Nepali law. Considering the extraordinary amount of public comment the case attracted, stirred up by a media frenzy, it would be very surprising if there were not a thorough investigation. In the event, no charges were laid, there was no court case," This is not true - no reasons were given as to why there was no court case, the age of some of C.'s victims - and they are victims - was undoubtedly sixteen, the decision not to pursue a court case was not based on being unable to establish that age of the boys - not men, and under the age of consent as per Irish though not Nepali law)
Now, our personal reasons for the edits. You know C. and I guess don't want him unduly treated here; that should be respected. So, I think, you think the article should not directly mention the facts of the case but only allude to them, and finish by 'in × year C. was interviewed by D. Moore', as you find the issue satisfactorily dealt with in the Hot Press piece. Others at the time were highly critical of the interiew and its framing. It seems to me that this section can't be included without explainingnyhe thrust of the contents of the interview, which then would need to be balanced with the responses to it made elsewhere. I think you would rather the issue not further explored in the piece. My suggestion is to either remove this last sentence altogether - it can then be left to the F.tale of K. page to deal with the opposing views (which I think it does on the whole,fairly), or to modify it in a way that does not suggest that the matter is resolved by the HP piece: this needs no more than the alteration of the sentence to 'C. responded to criticism in an interview' et c., the wording otherwise suggests that the HP article is the resolution of the affair - some may believe it is, some may beliece it isn't, both views are subjective. I'm not going to make further edits to the article. These are my suggestions, and I'll leave it at that. My reasons for the edits were motivated by any suggestion that sexual relationships between adults and teens or younger are permissable or that they should, when they occur, should be seen to be mitigated for any reason. There were and are efforts to normalise this behaviour which should be opposed at all times.
Thank you for the courtesy of your most recent reply, I'm content with most of my motivations; but I think it is more the case that you should reflect on your own motivations as to why you believe a man in his late forties who has sex with a number of teenage boys reliant on his charity organisation should have the matter hidden from his public biography.
new entry
[edit]Hi Dmhball ! I'm wondering why you persistently remove details about the subject of Cathal O'Searcaigh's 'controversy', namely the sexual relationships with the teenage beneficiaries of his charity organisation in Nepal (to which he admitted on camera in the film Fairytale of Kathmandu, this is discussed on the wiki page for the documentary). None of this is contested - it did occur, and, as you say, caused quite the furore. And it appears that others have thought it was an incident big enough to merit a section in C.O'S's page, here. You have stated that this has 'died down' - this hardly means that a clear account of the subject should be expunged from the page, though, does it ? As it stands, the section is dealt with by allusion and hints, and an unexplained reference to the Hot Press article where O'S. defended himself. Now, for fairness, it could be said that the subject is fairly dealt with in the page for the Fairytale of K. page. In which case the sentence introducing the Hot Press article should be removed. Otherwise the facts of the controversy need to be included - that an adult in his late forties while acting in his role for the charity had sexual relationships with several teenage boys the charity was assisting. The contraction of this into 'power imbalance' is like Victorian code for sexual impropriety. As you obviously know C.O'S., I wonder why you think it proper to conceal these uncontested events from his wikipedia entry ? Is it proper that middle-aged adults should engage in sexual relationships with teenagers and that their reputations should then be whitewashed by concealing these attested events from their biographies ? These are very serious actions. Tidy the article up, I'm not out to 'get' at Cathal O'S. - he's done harm enough to himself; but the issue cannot be expunged, and it (the article) needs to read clearly and reference the issue properly. Your edits make it look like a portion of text that has so many parts scribbled out that it no longer makes sense.
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COI
[edit]Hi there. If you are friends with Cathal Ó Searcaigh, you shouldn't be editing his article, as there is a clear conflict of interest. Can you clarify what the position is? BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 19:59, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
response to User:Bastun
[edit]Yes, I see the problem, but I'm sure you know the literary world in Ireland is one in which everybody knows everybody else. (I'm very peripheral to it, and in contact mainly with a number of poets.) It's likely that nobody could either tend Cathal's website or defend it from occasional vandalism, if the rule were applied narrowly. I certainly have a friendly relationship with him, I do know him, but I see him maybe once a year, at the moment much less. So in that sense we're not close friends. The problem is a real one: finding someone who knows Cathal's poetry and keeps in touch with his frequent publications, but who doesn't know him personally. He knows everyone!
If you can suggest a solution I'd be grateful and would gladly hand over responsibility to someone else, but I would still feel duty bound to keep his site on my watch list and act on vandalism if nobody else jumps in and does it. Incidentally, for completeness, I should point out that at least I'm not paid for the bit of editing I do. Dmhball~enwiki (talk) 22:49, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
Were you involved in the row in Aosdána that arose over the defense of O'Searcaigh (after the teen sex-abuse in Nepal) that featured prominently in the news at the time ? You certainly were at the time, and are now still, a member of Aosdána. Were you among the signatories of the letter sent to the Irish Times in defense of O'Searcaigh ? Beacuse above, you were being very vague about the extent of your involvment with these controversies (and, hence, your suitability to be gatekeeper on this article)
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/row-looms-within-aosdana-over-o-searcaigh-documentary-1.921020
https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-20215392.html
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/controversy-over-cathal-o-searcaigh-1.905180 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.228.200.69 (talk) 19:39, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
Reply
[edit]Hi. I'm not sure exactly who I'm replying to! - it's just a serial number in the signature, but I assume it's still Bastun. Here are my answers. I've lived in Scotland for over 40 years, although I still visit Ireland fairly often. Hence, at the time of the controversy, at least at its height, I only heard about it peripherally and intermittently through radio broadcasts during short spells in Ireland, and had never met Cathal although I knew about his work. I was not involved with the controversy among members of Aosdana, and I wasn't ever a member of Aosdana -- I don't know where you got the idea that I was. So you could say that I came on the whole thing (including meeting Cathal for the first time) after the row had died down a lot, and the undoubted problem could be looked at in a balanced way. I may however have been influenced by conversations with other literary people, as inevitably happens, but I tried to look at it from all angles and draw my own conclusions. Dmhball~enwiki (talk) 23:23, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
Your submission at Articles for creation: Cathal Ó Searcaigh extended bibliography (February 13)
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Concern regarding Draft:Cathal Ó Searcaigh extended bibliography
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Your draft article, Draft:Cathal Ó Searcaigh extended bibliography
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