User:Doncram/USPLACE notes

Notes on wp:PLACE, which could be more developed in several issues.

These are rambling, unfinished notes for now. --doncram 22:01, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

General

Is this towards a formal change on USPLACE extensions/clarifications/changes needed, or it towards an essay?

Disambiguation using places

Neither wp:PLACE's Disambiguation section nor its USPLACE section are as explicit as they should be about disambiguation for things like churches and courthouses in the U.S.

wp:PLACE is perhaps not explicit enough on the intersection of disambiguation (covered at wp:PLACE#Disambiguation) and U.S. places (wp:USPLACE). The disambiguation section gives an example of a "feature" with disambiguation: Eagle River (Colorado), but the river is a state-level item. It gives no example of a house, church, park or anything else that is wholly located in one "City, State". The U.S. places section avoids disambiguation entirely?

The application of USPLACE to parenthetical disambiguation has been covered in some of the big discussions about U.S. place, in which I participated. (Links?) Parenthetical disambiguation has been discussed in the big debates that have gone on, but seems not to be explicit there now. It is a second-level point that City, State is preferred to just State, when used as disambiguation. I don't think I have the energy yet for a big revisiting of wp:USPLACE and what are its corollaries/extensions. There are several other parts of it which are not all clear and consistent. The main part of USPLACE itself has been subject of huge long debatess. Trying to discuss / solidify consensus in minor parts/extensions of it may not be worthwhile, as too much would get stirred up.

In the U.S. we use City, State as placenames, and when using placenames in parenthetical disambiguation for a thing in a populated place like a city, we should use the City, State format. Wp:USPLACE mostly focuses on choice of "City" vs. "City, State" as name for articles about city-type populated places.

Practice on place-based disambiguation for U.S. vs. Canada vs. U.K. vs. other

• About use of placename in disambiguation for "located things" (or "things fixed in location", or what is the term?) like churches and houses and train stations, there is different practice for U.S., Canada, U.K. I think practice should be consistent within each country, and the rule should be clear for other countries.

• In the U.S. almost universal practice is that we use parenthetical disambiguation in form (CITY, STATE), except for when the City is one of the A.P. Stylebook's list of exceptions, where either (CITY, STATE) or just CITY can be used. This should be formalized IMO.
  • There has been mixed practice for courthouses alone, out of all types of things (churches, schools, parks, mansions, cemeteries, etc.)
    • From my reply to a question at User talk:Doncram: "There are many cases where there are two places named like Jefferson County Courthouse in the same state though. Usually where the second one is in the same county, though there must be cases where a former courthouse is no longer in the same county. One of several examples where there are two current same-county courthouses: Jackson County Courthouse (Independence, Missouri) and Jackson County Courthouse (Kansas City, Missouri). There are many more examples where there is a current courthouse and a former courthouse in the same county where both have articles already. (And IMO there are possibly-notable former courthouses in many or even most or even nearly all U.S. counties; notability depends on whether anyone chooses to dig up old sources or not.)"
    • "And I do think that using (City, State) in disambiguation is consistent with USPLACE. USPLACE rules that "City, State" is to be used even when it is somewhat redundant/unnecessary, for clarity and for comfort of readers. It is consistent to apply that principle to using "City" in addition to "State" where relevant, although I grant what's explicit in USPLACE is mostly about when "City, State" is preferred over "City". In practice we have been very consistent about using "City, State" rather than just "State" for houses, theatres, churches, city halls, bridges and almost all other kind of thing besides courthouses. Even when the name of the thing has some suggestion of place in it, like Springfield Presbyterian Church (Springfield, New Jersey). The fact that most county courthouses have some suggestion of their location in their names (i.e. their county is identified usually), too, doesn't make them different. In many/(most?) cases, having "County" plus "State" doesn't help out readers with where a thing is located, because most readers don't know where a county seat is located, besides the fact they don't know if the county seat has always been there or not and whether the thing is old enough to be located in the former seat. "Fulton County" + "Georgia" alone raise the question "Where is it?" in a reader's mind, adding cognitive load unnecessarily. Fulton County Courthouse (Atlanta, Georgia) eliminates that."

• In Canada is the form is (CITY) or is it comma disambiguation with the city name, or is it just mixed with no rule? I think many would think Canada should use comma disambiguation like in the U.K., though, and I bet usage is inconsistent in this. But there is a lot of use of (CITY) for Canada, and I tend to think that is best for Canada.

• In Europe comma disambiguation is usual. IMHO, this U.S. vs. Canada vs. Europe variation in Wikipedia should be made explicit, and the general reasons for it should be given, as for other FAQs at Talk page of naming conventions for places.

Comparisons

• For U.S. vs. Canada there is our treatment of churches named First Presbyterian Church. See the dab page. For example First Presbyterian Church (Edmonton) vs. First Presbyterian Church (Augusta, Georgia).

Hmm, from browsing disambiguation pages for cathedrals that can appear in these countries ( St. John's Cathedral, St. Matthew's Cathedral, St. Peter's Cathedral, St. Luke's Cathedral, St. Mark's Cathedral ):

• In U.S.:
  • St. Peter's Cathedral (Belleville, Illinois)
  • St. John's Cathedral (Knoxville, Tennessee)
  • St. John's Cathedral (Los Angeles) (Los Angeles is one of A.P. Stylebook exceptions)
  • Cathedral of St. John the Evangelist (Spokane, Washington)
  • St. Matthew Cathedral (South Bend, Indiana)
  • Cathedral Church of Saint Matthew (Dallas) (Dallas is one of A.P. ones)
  • St. Mark's Cathedral (Shreveport, Louisiana)
  • St. Mark's Cathedral (Salt Lake City) (Salt Lake City is one of A.P. ones)

• In Canada:
  • St. Peter's Cathedral Basilica, London, Ontario (Province is needed to distinguish vs. city of same name in England)
  • But: St. Peter's Cathedral (Charlottetown)
  • and St. Matthew's Anglican Cathedral (Brandon)
  • and Cathedral of St. John the Evangelist (Saskatoon)

• In Australia:
  • St Peter's Cathedral, Adelaide
  • St John's Cathedral, Parramatta
  • But: St John's Cathedral (Brisbane) (although at St. John's Cathedral dab page it is St John's Cathedral, Brisbane

• In the U.K.:
  • Cathedral Church of Saint Peter, Exeter (at dab page, although redirects to Exeter Cathedral
  • Saint Peter's Cathedral, Lancaster (at dab page, although redirects to Lancaster Cathedral
  • St Peter's Cathedral, Belfast
  • Cathedral of St John the Evangelist, Portsmouth
  • Greek Orthodox Cathedral of St. Luke, Glasgow
  • But: St John's Cathedral (Oban) (although at dab page it is St John's Cathedral, Oban

• IMO, the U.S. version has advantage of distinguishing between Wikipedia name vs. true official name of a thing, because I think a comma phrase can sometimes be part of an official name, while parenthetical phrases never are.

Other problems in wp:USPLACE

State used in comma disambiguation?

The USPLACE uses comma disambiguation, oddly, for at least one example: "Rochester metropolitan area, Minnesota" and "Rochester metropolitan area, New York". IMHO those should be "Rochester metropolitan area (Minnesota)" and "Rochester metropolitan area (New York)", but I don't want to stir it up. Those are examples of using (STATE) as the kind of populated place to put into parenthetical disambiguation.

Parishes and boroughs

• "Parish" is discussed as if it is a valid administrative division anywhere in the U.S., at least twice, one being that "A placename that needs additional disambiguation should include its county or parish". While I think a) it should be explicit that "parish" should be accepted only for places in Louisiana, where they are county-equivalents, and b) boroughs in Alaska deserve to get equal attention but are not. (And what is further distinction in Alaska between boroughs and non-boroughs?) Make it clear that it is not okay to choose to use the name of some Catholic (or Episcopalian, or whatever other denomination) church parish in other states.