Template talk:Greek Orthodox Church footer

Albanian Orthodox Church

Is not a Greek Orthodox Church, but autocephalus. Please keep it out of this template. Mesfushor (talk) 15:02, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Sourced: Roudometof, Victor (2002). Collective memory, national identity, and ethnic conflict. Greenwood Press. p. 179. the only remaining issues between the two sides concern the extent to which minority members should have equal rights with the rest of the Albanian citizens as well as issues of property and ecclesiastical autonomy for the Greek Orthodox Church of Albania. As everyone can see there are reliable sources that include it as part of Greek Orthodox Christianity. Not surprising, since its head is a Greek (Yannoullatos), and in many parishes mass is conducted in Greek. Any church that conducts mass in Greek can be considered part of Greek Orthodox christianity, even if it is autocephalous. The "Greek" here is more cultural than political. But what really matters is that sources such as the one I included above, describe it as Greek. Athenean (talk) 09:47, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

That's the only source that I can see. The others are shady and I cannot see anything online. Roudometof uses "Greek Orthodox" in its historical significance "Eastern Orthodox Church", so he has not used the correct wording, because he is a contemporary historian, not an ecclesiastic specialist. The Albanian Orthodox Church is not a Greek Orthodox Church: that would go against the very definition of the word "autocephalous", which links orthodoxy to a nation state. The Albanian Orthodox Church is as Greek as the Russian, Bulgarian, or Romanian Orthodox Churches which split from the Greek Orthodox church at some point of time.

The Albanian Orthodox Church split in 1922 and was recognized as autocephalous in 1937, end of story. Calling the Albanian Orthodox Church a "Greek Orthodox Church" is misleading. In fact you will never find in the very website of the Albanian Orthodox Church that it is a "Greek Orthodox Church", or in any ecclesiastic website for that matter, and I have checked many of them. The only (misleading) source is Roudometof, which is to be seen in meaning as I explained above. The fact that the primate is a Greek is the only Greek thing politically in the Albanian National Church (and extremely controversial per Elsie's explanation), but, besides the nomination of a Greek cleric as a primate (because there were no adequate Albanian clerics in 1991), there is nothing that can make the Albanian Orthodox Church a "Greek" Orthodox Church (besides this template in wikipedia).

I will bring you a reliable source (Barbara Larkin - International Religious Freedom 2000, p242) which clearly says that The Albanian Orthodox Church split from the Greek Orthodox Church early in the century and adherents strongly identify with the Autocephalous National Church as distinct from the Greek Church. I don't know how a scholar can be more clear than that.

The "cultural" explanations are not important btw, the important explanation is a political-religious one, as the autocephaly concept clearly detaches the Albanian Orthodox Church from the Greek Orthodox Church.

Besides, the "cultural" explanations are countered by the efforts of the Greek Orthodox Church to hellenize the Orthodox Albanians, which are well documented (see Ramet-Obstat 1998 p222 that talk about the background of the historical role of the Greek Orthodox Church in efforts to hellenize the Albanian population.

In addition the fact that there are Greeks in Albania is not an argument either: Serbian Orthodox people and Macedonian Orthodox people in Albania worship in their own language, but they all belong to the Albanian Orthodox Church, not to the Greeek Orthodox Church (and neither to the Serbian nor Macedonian Churches).

For the reasons I gave to you above, for the source, and for the implications and controversy that are brought by the nomination of Yannoullatos as a primate, I invite you to not include the Albanian Orthodox Church within the Greek Orthodox Church template, as it is misleading.

Are you interested in seeing more sources that the Albanian Orthodox Church is Not a Greek Orthodox Church or will Larkin suffise to you? Mesfushor (talk) 12:42, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Roudemetof is an excellent source, and says "Greek Orthodox Church in Albania", that's all that's needed to include it in the template. The rest of your post is irrelevant. The template includes other autocephalous churches, such as the Church of Cyprus. It is autocephalous too, but is included because it conducts mass in Greek. So the fact that the Albanian church is autocephalous is not an argument for removing it from the template. Most importantly, as long as the article on the Greek Orthodox Church mentions the Albanian Church (and it does so because it's sourced), it should be included in the template. It's that simple, really. Athenean (talk) 13:57, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm not interested in the Church of Cyprus whatsoever. I'm talking about the Albanian Orthodox Church which should be not part of the Greek Orthodox Church template. The Orthodox believers in Albania can hear mass in Albanian Greek, Serbian, or Swahili, but they are part of the Albanian National Orthodox Church, not Greek Orthodox. I am giving you a reliable source (Barbara Larkin - International Religious Freedom 2000, p242) that clearly says The Albanian Orthodox Church split from the Greek Orthodox Church early in the century and adherents strongly identify with the Autocephalous National Church as distinct from the Greek Church.. The source is reliable. So I'm asking you for a second and last time: After reviewing Larkin's source, do you need other sources, or are you just going to ignore my argument again? Mesfushor (talk) 15:52, 9 June 2012 (UTC)