Template:Did you know nominations/Mit Ernst, o Menschenkinder

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 14:22, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Mit Ernst, o Menschenkinder

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... that "Mit Ernst, o Menschenkinder", a 1642 Advent hymn, includes a call to penitence that John the Baptist took from the prophet Isaiah? Source: [1]

Reviewed: ~~to come~~
Comment: please in Advent, no later than 23 December

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 22:27, 12 December 2020 (UTC).

@Gerda Arendt: I'm happy to review this. ~~Have you done a QPQ, or do you meet the criteria for waiver (fewer than 5 DYK credits)?~~ Edge3 (talk) 04:49, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

My review follows: new (nominated within 7 days of creation), long enough, neutral, cites sources. Validity of sources accepted in good faith, since I can't read German. Hook is fine.

~~Since the hymn's text is in the public domain, make sure to add the appropriate template per WP:FREECOPYING.~~
"pointing out that a humble heart is closer to being ready to receive the coming saviour than a proud heart" -- this sounds like a close paraphrase or copying issue. It might be better to just translate directly, and surround it with quotation marks ("").
~~QPQ still pending. (See earlier comment.)~~ Edge3 (talk) 05:11, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

I hope to get to this later today or tomorrow. Today, I have 5 DYK on the Main page to take care of, to answer the qpq question, and I have to get two ready for Christmas. Patience, please. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:09, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

I reviewed now Template:Did you know nominations/Valentina (singer), the song article. Please enlighten me about the template about copying, because I wrote many articles on hymns, including Nun bitten wir den Heiligen Geist, and was never asked for such a thing for texts by authors who died more than 70 years ago. The writing about the humble heart is paraphrasing the text rather than a source. To translate the text would create the difficulty that the Baroque language might be not easily grasped, also be longer. In this case "Ein Herz, das Demut liebet, bei Gott am höchsten steht; ein Herz, das Hochmut übet, mit Angst zugrunde geht;" to "A heart that loves humbleness stands highest with God; a heart that exercises pride/arrogance/haughtiness will perish in anxiety. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:13, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your prompt reply! I'm going to ping for assistance from another editor, as I'm actually not familiar with how we usually handle public domain material for DYK purposes. Edge3 (talk) 15:47, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Update: I've received responses to my questions on Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know#Handling_public_domain_content_in_a_DYK. There is no need to give attribution to the public domain content, since it's already implied that the text comes from the hymn. I'll strike my comment on that now. Regarding the "pointing out that a humble heart..." sentence, it still raises WP:PARAPHRASE concerns because the "creative expression" of the hymn is still present. (See WP:NOCREATIVE). Also note that "translation from a foreign language is a form of paraphrase". (See WP:PARAPHRASE#Translation). You may wish to avoid the close paraphrase altogether, by replacing the content with your own words in trying to explain the essence of the third stanza.

Having said that, a close paraphrase may still be permissible, especially since this is a public domain text. However, proper attribution is still required. (See WP:PARAPHRASE#When is close paraphrasing permitted?). Edge3 (talk) 23:50, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. May problem: the words I used for the comparison of the third stanza with the Magnificat are my words - the way I would summarize the content. What can we do? What precisely do you think is too similar to what? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:38, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Ah yes, you're quite right. I think I misunderstood how much was copied, versus what you paraphrased in your own words. Thank you for providing the translation from German above. I've also used Google Translate to do the same.

In my view, "humble" and "proud" are considered "creative expression" because they reflect the "choice of words" from the original text (WP:NOCREATIVE). I've modified the article to address this. Let me know if you have concerns about this.

Approved, noting that German-language sources were accepted in good faith. Edge3 (talk) 12:57, 17 December 2020 (UTC)