Template:Did you know nominations/Jean Sibelius

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 13:40, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Jean Sibelius

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Jean Sibelius in 1913

~~... that since 2011, Finland has celebrated a Flag Day on 8 December, Jean Sibelius's (pictured) birthday, also known as the "Day of Finnish Music"?~~

ALT1: ~~... that through his music, Jean Sibelius (pictured) is often credited with having helped Finland to develop a national identity during its struggle for independence from Russia?~~

ALT2 (already in Queue): ~~... that Jean Sibelius (pictured) described his string quartet Voces intimae as the "kind of thing that brings a smile to your lips at the hour of death"?~~

Reviewed: Emīlija Gudriniece
Comment: Alt1 is not directly cited in the article.
Comment2: I noticed that hooks about Sibelius (without bolded Jean Sibelius) are already in Queues 3 and 4, scheduled for Sibelius' 150th birthday on 8 December. Suggest bolding the composer's name in one of those hooks, if timely approved, instead of using a new hook (as in Alt2).

OK by me to combine it with Voces intimae. For info, his Eighth Symphony is to be TFA on the 8th too.--Ipigott (talk) 21:14, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Improved to Good Article status by Ipigott (talk). Nominated by Oceanh (talk) at 19:48, 6 December 2015 (UTC).

Comment: I struck the Voces intimae hook, because I think his article should have a hook of its own, possibly replacing the Snöfrid hook in the other set that day, or in addition to it, possibly with a different image, - as we have two images planned for Frank Sinatra on 12 December. I like the original hook best because it mentions the day. A selection of images is on the article talk, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:11, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Short is beautiful (and I would work on the pieces):

Jean Sibelius in 1904

ALT3: ... that from 2011 Finland has celebrated a Flag Day on 8 December, the birthday of Jean Sibelius (pictured) who composed seven symphonies, the Violin Concerto and Finlandia? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:24, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for comments. Regarding picture, note that with the TFA article Symphony No. 8 (Sibelius), a picture of Sibelius will probably be present at the top of the main page all day on December 8. Therefore, I do not see the need for swapping the already planned pictured hooks for that day. Oceanh (talk) 23:41, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

"A picture" - yes, but showing him in rather old age. There are good ones,- the one above with Voces intimae, but also the one with the violin concerto, and I like the one with Cassazione (the James Bond piece, approved). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:08, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Short is beautiful:

ALT4: ... that by composing music such as Finlandia, Jean Sibelius (pictured) helped Finland's national identity during its struggle for independence from Russia? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:49, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Fully support ALT4.--Ipigott (talk) 09:35, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Promoted to GA on Dec. 6, nom same day/new enough. 51953 char/long enough. Neutral. No apparent copyvios. Copiously cited, though citations missing from paragraph which begins "During his long stays in Helsinki..." and "His 90th birthday, in 1955..." Both of these images are indicated as free use on commons. QPQ done. Both ALT3 and ALT4 are under maximum and verified with citations within the paragraphs wherein the claims are made, though not immediately following the sentences. (That could be problematic for a promoter.) Please ping when the two missing citations are fixed. Lovely article. Massive amount of work. Bravo! SusunW (talk) 01:11, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

@SusunW: While DYK only requires a clear source in support of the hook, I've complied with your request. Thanks for your support. Suggest we go with ALT4.--Ipigott (talk) 09:01, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

GTG all citations in place. SusunW (talk) 15:22, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for quite a feat! We need to take the 1904 image because the other one appeared already. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:55, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I was going to strike the original image so that it would be perfectly clear, as well as all the extraneous hooks for Ian's preferred one, but the template says I cannot change the original image "Please do not edit above this line unless you are a DYK volunteer who is closing the discussion." Who CAN change it? SusunW (talk) 17:38, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

No need to change, - we can still change prep if a "wrong" image or hook gets chosen. I think it's good to preserve the history of which image was proposed for which hook. I always advise to not change hooks (other than for spelling mistakes etc.) but rather write an ALT because often comments don't make sense regarding a hook that you can't see any more. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:46, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: I want to help promote this when a fresh prep set opens up. But I only see ALT4 in the lead, without a citation. Yoninah (talk) 00:37, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Yoninah my interpretation of the cites were from this paragraph: In January 1899, Sibelius embarked on his First Symphony at a time when his patriotic feelings were being enhanced by the Russian emperor Nicholas II's restrictions on the powers of the Grand Duchy of Finland. The symphony was well received by all when it was premiered in Helsinki on 26 April 1899. But the programme also premiered the even more compelling, blatantly patriotic Song of the Athenians for boys' and male choirs. The song immediately brought Sibelius the status of a national hero.[41][42] Another patriotic work followed on 4 November in the form of eight tableaux depicting episodes from Finnish history known as the Press Celebration Music. It had been written in support of the staff of the Päivälehti newspaper which had been suspended for a period after editorially criticizing Russian rule.[43] The last tableau, Finland Awakens, was particularly popular; after minor revisions, it became the well-known Finlandia.[44]

What ~~the expert~~ SusunW said: it's a summary of sourced individual facts, which would be too long for a hook. We could reopen one of the others but this seems the strongest. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:26, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

I saw that paragraph, but I didn't catch the connections between "the Russian emperor Nicholas II's restrictions on the powers of the Grand Duchy of Finland" and "struggle for independence from Russia", or the hook's central contention that Finlandia "helped Finland's national identity". I think you should add Jean Sibelius to History of Finland#Nationalism and Finnish nationalism, and perhaps pull a source from there to make this clearer (as little as one sentence). Then the hook could be reworded as:

ALT5: ... that by composing music such as Finlandia, Jean Sibelius (pictured) contributed to Finland's national awakening in the late 19th century? Yoninah (talk) 09:48, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps use something from other articles about the topic, such as In Memoriam (Sibelius) or Breaking the ice, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:08, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

ps, regarding the hook ALT5: what does "19th century" add? "Awakening" seems debatable. May we not mention Russia? Opression was severe enough to shoot the one in charge and remember the one who did it as a hero. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:13, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

I support the elegant wording of Yoninah's ALT5. It was indeed at the very end of the 19th century that the music of Sibelius created an increasing feeling of nationalism in Finland. I don't think we achieve anything by mentioning Russia. Can we not just go along with this rather than complicating things even further?--Ipigott (talk) 14:58, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, @Ipigott:, but I actually got that wording about "national awakening" from the History of Finland article. I reviewed the sources you provided and added a different link to the sentence about Nicholas II: Russification of Finland. Without starting to look for another source, how about this:
ALT6: ... that by composing music such as Finlandia, Jean Sibelius (pictured) boosted Finnish patriotism in the face of Russian oppression? Yoninah (talk) 15:17, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
However, if you don't want to mention Russia, please provide a source for ALT5. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 15:19, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

I really don't mind whether Russia is mentioned or not. I appreciate all the time and trouble everyone is taking about this and am happy with whatever is suggested.--Ipigott (talk) 15:23, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Getting long: I only asked. Whatever hook, it will serve the purpose to finally show a great GA about a great composer, hopefully pictured. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:30, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

I've been keeping an eye and it looks like the easiest path to get this promoted is to go with ALT6, no additional sourcing needed and we are all okay with the text, which is supported by citations already on the file. SusunW (talk) 16:52, 23 December 2015 (UTC)