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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Philroc (talk) 14:49, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Alligator Rainwear

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  • ... that an Alligator in PVC gave Mary Quant a wet look? Source: "Quant launched her 'Wet Collection' in April 1963 at the Hôtel de Crillon, Paris, featuring entirely PVC garments. ... The material was so innovative that it took another two years before a collaboration with British manufacturer Alligator Rainwear resulted in a commercially viable range of Mary Quant PVC raincoats." ([1])

Created by Edwardx (talk), Philafrenzy (talk), and Whispyhistory (talk). Nominated by Edwardx (talk) at 01:20, 17 November 2020 (UTC).

  • Unless the intention was to make the hook vague on purpose (or invite readers to read the Alligator link), I don't think the hook works unless you know what PVC is or are familiar with Quant. Could something less vague be suggested here too? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 09:44, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Yes it is deliberately ambiguous and intended for the final slot as there are no suitable free images for a picture hook. I think ALT1 will make a good hook there. Philafrenzy (talk) 11:35, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Narutolovehinata5, surely all hooks ought to aim to get the reader to click on a link. Quant, Dior and Chanel have been called the three most important fashion designers of the 20th century. PVC is a commonly used and well-known material, not just in fashion. Edwardx (talk) 11:38, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
Perhaps the hook could work as an AFD hook with the current wording, but otherwise it still seems too vague personally. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 02:52, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
  • @Edwardx: Would you be okay with the nomination running as an April Fools Day hook? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:08, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Article was new enough and long enough at the time of the nomination, and is free from close paraphrasing. Whispy provided a QPQ. The "Wet Look" wording is only mentioned (uncited) in the lede, and Mary Quant is not linked in the body but only in the lede. In fact, several statements in the lede are only mentioned there (without a reference) and are not found anywhere else in the article. In addition, the "Recent history" section appears incomplete, as it makes no mention about when the brand was acquired. Meanwhile, the relationship between Alligator Mill and Alligator Rainwear is not made clear in the relevant section. As mentioned earlier, I have some reservations about approving either hook except as part of the AFD set, though I'm willing to request a second opinion from another editor who may be more willing to accept it. As a possible alternative, a hook about how one of the company's owners was a victim of the Munich air disaster is a possible option, though due to it being a negative event, not going with it is acceptable. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 18:10, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
  • @Edwardx: As the nomination is almost a month old and article issues remain, the nomination may be failed unless there is a prompt response and the issues are addressed. Courtesy ping to co-nominators Whispyhistory and Philafrenzy. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 07:28, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
  • I see that Whispyhistory has been expanding the article further and has addressed several concerns that were raised above. Please let me know when you're done working on it so that the review may continue. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 02:38, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
    Thanks @Narutolovehinata5:...Not sure what else to do there. Maybe the others can think of a hook relating to Alligator's assistance being sought to fix/secure the PVC garment seams which led to Quant's PVC products being sold commercially. Whispyhistory (talk) 05:10, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
@Whispyhistory: For one thing, the exact relationship between Alligator Mill and Alligator Rainwear is never elaborated on in the article and isn't immediately obvious in any case. There's also no mention of when and why they were acquired by Baker Street Brands, although if no sources (online or offline) that can elaborate on this, then it's okay. As for the hooks, I'm willing to approve either provided that they run on April Fools, as otherwise the hooks just feel too vague or misleading to be in the quirky slot as is. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 10:32, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
I will look at the sourcing but the whole point of the last slot is to be vague, misleading, and humorous. Philafrenzy (talk) 12:45, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
@Narutolovehinata5:. Thank you for being patient. I have done what I can. Will leave rest to @Philafrenzy and Edwardx:...unless you think I need to do more. Whispyhistory (talk) 21:13, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
Thanks. I'm just waiting for a confirmation that the expansion is finished and the review will continue. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 02:09, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
Just pinging @Whispyhistory to get this moving again - apparently nominator is awaiting your answer. --LordPeterII (talk) 21:58, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
Sure...Go ahead with review....I don't have anything further to add to the article. Apologies, I didn't realise a reply was awaited from me. Whispyhistory (talk) 22:04, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
Also waiting for a response from Edwardx regarding the other article concerns. @Whispyhistory: Would you also be open for ALT0 to be an April Fools hook? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:48, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
@Narutolovehinata5: Thankyou. ALT0 on April fool's day okay with me. Whispyhistory (talk) 05:38, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
Noted. Still waiting on a final response from Edwardx regarding the completion of the article expansion as well as the AFD hook possibility. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 07:04, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
I have just read it and everything in the lead now appears in the body. There is certainly a long section explaining the relationship with Quant. All this pinging is fine but perhaps the reviewer could state specifically anything they are not happy with so that it may be fixed. We know they don't like the hook, but they are completely wrong about that. It's a very good hook (Alt1) with a nice play on words where "wet look" (shiny PVC raincoats that looked like they were wet) is reversed to "look wet" juxtaposed with "an Alligator", i.e. a raincoat made by Alligator. It's British surreal humour, but that's appropriate and appreciated by most English speakers. Readers will immediately understand that it's a little cryptic play on words that they have to decode in their mind and that it is not intended to be read literally. Their curiosity aroused, they will then click on the link for the "reveal" where everything is explained. Philafrenzy (talk) 09:52, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
As of right now I'm really only willing to approve the original wording if it goes up as an April Fools Day hook, because otherwise it personally just feels too misleading even for a quirky slot. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 12:14, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
  • OK, do you have any other objections? Philafrenzy (talk) 12:19, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
The article is almost good to go: it just needs a little more clarification about the relationship between the mill and the brand (as far as I can tell, the mill was the brand's factory? The wording is somewhat confusing). In addition, as the article is written in British English, shouldn't "Willie" be 'Willie' like the other quotes? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 12:24, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
Have changed "Willie" to 'Willie', even though British English has no firm position on this. As for Alligator mill and the Alligator brand, factories are of course usually named after brands/companies, not vice versa. Philafrenzy has gone to some effort to clarify the usage of Alligator, but ultimately we can only summarise reliable sources, and seeking to make inferences can be WP:OR. The US and UK courts are littered with such unresolved trademark disputes. Edwardx (talk) 12:59, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
I wonder whether we should just remove all the quotation marks from Alligator as the capital A seems sufficient. Philafrenzy (talk) 13:19, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
Per MOS:DOUBLE, I have standardized on double quotes; even though British English uses single quotes for a number of things, Wikipedia's manual of style is for double quotes in these uses. Narutolovehinata5, do the recent changes take care of your remaining issues? BlueMoonset (talk) 18:43, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
I think my issues with the Mill-Rainwear association are now mostly resolved by the sentence mentioning it was one of the subject's four factories, if barely. The only thing that remains is whether or not Edward is fine with this going up as an AFD hook. If they agree, the nomination will be approved; if they disagree, I will leave the final decision on whether to use ALT0 or ALT1 to another editor. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 02:27, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
@Edwardx: Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:40, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
@Narutolovehinata5: 1 April is fine with me. I admit to some confusion over the use of AFD, as normally that means Wikipedia:Articles for deletion, but maybe that's just me. Edwardx (talk) 12:17, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
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