Talk:Zhu De

Untitled

The list for Ten Marshals for People's Republic of China contains only 9 names; Liu Bocheng was missing from the list. Is there anyway that the list is curved blackets be edited?

I've added some additional information to this article and deleted some things like ". After he returned to China, Zhu served in a training regiment of Sun Yat-sen's Kuomintang army and Chief of Public Security in Nanchang. Following two arrests for revolutionary activities in China, he was exiled. " which are completley incorrect. Not Worth Waiting For 07:24, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Zhou Enlai's recruit

It's been said that Zhou Enlai recruited him in Berlin and turned him from warlordship to communism.

Takima 23:26, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Edgar Snow (Red Star Over China, p. 465) says he joined the CCP in Berlin "through the influence of" Zhou Enlai.DOR (HK) (talk) 07:23, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Read Smedley's biography for the accurate account. He'd been a warlord and was mistrusted when he tried to join the Communist movement. Zhou's role was to decide he could be trusted. --GwydionM (talk) 11:28, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Snow points out that Smedley's work on Zhu's early life was from secondary sources, whereas his own was from personal interviews. DOR (HK) (talk) 07:23, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Early Years

I've added a few bits about the 1920s. DOR (HK) (talk) 04:11, 25 April 2008 (UTC) And added further details and footnotes. Liebatron (talk) 05:08, 28 February 2013 (UTC) www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/COLDzhu.htm states that Zhu De was the son of a wealthy landlord. But Spartacus quotes Red Star Over China. I have that, so I looked it up.

The original 1936 edition did not include biographical information about Zhu De's family, however it did mention that "Helped by his family's political influence, he was accepted in the new Yunnan Military Academy", making it unlikely that he was born to a tenant farming family. However the 1960 revised version includes a list of biographical sketches based on unpublished original notes from Snow's interview notes and on another work, The Great Road: The Life and Times of Chu Teh. (NY 1956) The biographical sketch clears some things up; Zhu De's immediate family was a poor family, and the idea that it was also a tenant farming family would be expected under the circumstances, "Chu Teh was born in Hung, Szechuan, on December 18, 1886, in a family which had emigrated from Kwantung. He was one of thirteen children." This doesn't fit with Snow's initial account and Li Chiang's interview stating that his family had political influence, however that is explained soon thereafter, "The Author was told that Chu Teh came from a family of rich landlords. In reality his father was an impoverished peasant; at the age of nine Chu Teh was adopted by a prosperous uncle, who helped educate him." This is more fitting with the idea of his family helping him gain admission to a school.

Also the statement that his ancestors came from Guangdong appears to be based on a broad, sweeping statement that "Most of the Hakka people there are migrants who were forced by Manchurian rulers into Sichuan Province from Guangdong, Jiangxi and Hubei provinces during the early Qing Dynasty (1644-1911)." Although Zhu De may be a Hakka, Snow's report states specifically, not in a broad sense, where his family emigrated from.

I'm going to change the article to reflect this; specifically stating that

'Zhu De was born in Hung, Sichuan, on December 18, 1886. Zhu De was one of thirteen children in his family, a poor tenant farming family recently emigrated from Kwantung to Sichuan. At age nine, Zhu De was adopted by his prosperous uncle, who later helped him gain admission to the Yunnan Military Academy.'Liebatron (talk) 05:08, 28 February 2013 (UTC)Liebatron 2-28-2013

Check Dates

I don't know what dates this guy really was Head of State of the People's Republic of China and 2nd Chairman of the NPCSC, but if he died in 1976 it certainly wasn't in May of 1981. :) Can someone who knows the real answer please fix that? Pyran (talk) 15:41, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out; I've corrected it and removed the erronous reference to Marshall Zhu as PRC President. DOR (HK) (talk) 03:17, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Zhu and Opium

Could somebody confirm or infirm the following story I heard from a Chinese historian: Zhu quit opium not in a Shanghai hospital (as written in almost all Wikipedia sites - except the chinese one who doesn't say a word about it) but on a boat, completely isolated in the middle of a remote lake. The story seems a little bit hagiographic, yet Zhu is also well know to be a strong personnality... Any comment would be welcome Thanks Thomas —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.158.226.33 (talk) 03:22, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

So far the only references that point out Zhe De was a warlord and smoke Opium is from the pro-Taiwan writer. This seriously put the reliablity of the source into question. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.124.72.82 (talk) 18:39, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

If you can reference any sources that contradict the references that you keep removing then please do so. Keep in mind that there is no place for original research on Wikipedia. See: Wikipedia:No original research. Rafał Pocztarski 19:00, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Lynch's Mao mentions that Zhu De had an addiction to opium (p.66). Zhu admitted as much to Agnes Smedley (in The Great Road: The Life and Times of Chu Teh), hardly an anti-Communist source. That Zhu was an opium addict in the 1920s does not appear to be in dispute among serious historians. --Yaush (talk) 19:49, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Unreadable Garbage

Large parts of this are so badly written that the meaning is impossible to discern.221.213.126.88 (talk) 14:05, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

What "neutrality dispute"?

There is nothing in the Talk pages that warrants this label. Would someone please remove it? Thanks. DOR (HK) (talk) 06:29, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Removed POV label

Removed POV label pending supporting discussion. However, this article does have severe problems, with many factual errors, references that are irrelevant to the places referenced, disconnected paragraphs, and confused or contradictory claims. Use at your own risk until a rewrite is available. Rgr09 (talk) 14:15, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Zhu De/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Wizardman (talk · contribs) 02:05, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I'll review this article shortly. Wizardman 02:05, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

In short, I'm going to have to outright fail this article. Here's the issues I found:

• The citations are a complete and utter mess. It's mostly a bunch of bare URLs to what seem to be google book sources. The sources themselves seem okay but you have to at least make them usable on here. The ones that aren't bare URLs are no better, and are mostly useless.
• The lead needs to be expanded.
• "a hilly and isolated part of northern Sichuan province." the hilly and isolated part isn't really needed.
• "Yilong high primary school " So was it Yilong High or Yilong Primary? Or is it both and needs to be capitalized?
• "...as a gym instructor. An advocate of modern science and political teaching, rather than the strict classical education afforded by schools, he was dismissed from his post" I feel like something's missing here. How can a gym instructor have that kind of power?
• "Following the death of his mentor Cai E and his own wife, Zhu " his marriage was never mentioned in the article before this sentence. Same for the second. It feels like it jumps past a lot of detail in the Warlord section, actually.
• "Zhou Enlai was one of his sponsors ... In 1927, following the collapse of the First United Front, KMT authorities ordered Zhu lead a force against Zhou Enlai and Liu Bocheng's Nanchang Uprising.[15] However, having helped orchestrate the uprising, Zhu and his army defected from the Kuomintang.[19] " This part gets really confusing. It reads like he goes from supporting Enlai and the KMT to being against Enlai then being against the KMT in one fell swoop. Obviously that's not how it actually went down, but as is it's utterly confusing.
• "Here Mao had formed a soviet in 1927, " what?
• "In 1959, he tried to protect Peng Dehuai in the Lushan Conference. He just gave some mild criticisms of Peng. Mao Zedong wasn't satisfied with Zhu De's behavior." The tone here is poor, and it makes for a confusing section. The second sentence can be removed, and the first and third could be combined and explained more clearly.
• " His death came six months after the death of Zhou Enlai,[49] and just two months before the death of Mao Zedong." Not necessary.
• Not every single image of Zhu De needs to be in the article. The sepia one at the end and the vehicles can be removed. Right now the article feels squashed on both sides by them, and since it's not that long an article so many aren't necessary, unless you're going to put a gallary at the end of the article (which may be a better idea)
• Overall, the article feels rather haphazard, jumping from one event to another without feeling like a smooth transition. It's one of those things that's not easy to explain, but someone reading through the article for a first time would get what I'm saying.
• The article also feels a bit on the short side given the subject. It's entirely possible that this is all there is, but with the way it's worded it could be expanded just using the sources provided and making the language flow better.

The stunted feel of the article's language along with the referencing issues leads me to fail this article. It may be ready for GAN again once both parts are cleaned up big time. Wizardman 02:24, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Zhu De/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Rationalobserver (talk · contribs) 18:05, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Lead

• affiliated with Mao Zedong and his forces

There are a couple of terms in the lead that could be linked, and I think Mao is a good start.

• He ascended through the ranks as the Red Army closed in on securing the nation.

This is a little awkward; reword.

• Zhu was a very high ranking official

It's best to avoid empty adjectives like very, at least in encyclopedic or academic writing.

Life

• I think this header is redundant and could be removed altogether.

Early life

• sent to a classic private school in 1892

I think I know what you mean by classic, but this might be confusing to casual readers.

• gain access to Yunnan Military Academy later on

You can drop the later on, as the succession is clear.

• Enrolling in Sichuan high school around 1907, upon graduating in 1908 he returned to Yilong's primary school as a gym instructor.

This needs a rewording; maybe: "He enrolled in Sichuan high school around 1907, and upon graduating in 1908, he returned to Yilong's primary school as a gym instructor."

Nationalism and Warlordism

• At the Yunnan Military Academy, Zhu met Cai E (Tsai Ao).[10]

This seems a bit disconnected to the narrative. I recommend you combine this with the third sentence.

• Following the death of his mentor Cai E and his own wife,

As with above, you might want to combine this point with the others to make a stronger topic sentence.

• Zhu developed a strong opium habit

strong isn;t the best word here.

• His troops continued to support him and he became a warlord.

This is a run-on; add a comma before and he.

• after his troops were driven from Sichuan toward the Tibet border,

That should be "the border with Tibet" or "The Tibetan border".

• which may have contributed to his decision to leave China for study in Europe

It would be nice if this speculative ambiguity were not in Wikipedia's voice.

• He first travelled to Shanghai where he broke his opium habit and reportedly met Dr Sun Yat-sen.

Per WP:ALLEGED, the word reportedly should be avoided.

Converting to Communism

• In late 1922,[17] Zhu went to Europe,

It's odd to have a citation after this clause. Should this be at the end of the sentence?

• Around this time he joined the Communist Party of China.[19]

This is confusing, as just a bit earlier you stated: He attempted to join the Chinese Communist Party in early 1922, but was rejected due to having been a warlord.

• Zhou Enlai was one of his sponsors.

This might confuse a casual reader, so be sure it's clear that needed a sponsor to join.

• lead a force against Zhou Enlai, his sponsor and Liu Bocheng's Nanchang Uprising.

The last clause confuses me.

• However, having helped orchestrate the uprising, Zhu and his army defected from the Kuomintang.[20] The uprising failed to gather support, however,

Reword to avoid using however twice in a short span.

Zhu Mao

• This section is a little cluttered with images, so remove or move any that aren't especially vital.
• Should this header have single brackets or double?
• Mao had formed a soviet

Link soviet

• 'Here they formed the Jiangxi Soviet which would eventually grow to cover some 30,000 square kilometers'

The second clause is non-restrictive, so it should be set off with commas.

• however he was not able to do the same during

You need a commas after however.

• the 1934 break out

break out should be hyphenated.

Red Army leader

• organized some battles.

some is a bit vague here.

• After the Zunyi Conference,

Since you've already identified the conference, there is no need for reusing the proper name here.

• Zhu coopered with Mao and Zhou on military affairs.

Coopered?

• Mao supported this offensive at first

Maybe: "Initially, Mao supported this offensive" would be better.

• While a successful campaign, Mao attributed it as the main provocation for the devastating Japanese Three Alls Policy later and used it to criticize Peng at the Lushan Conference

Try: "While a successful campaign, Mao 'later attributed it as the main provocation for the devastating Japanese Three Alls Policy and used it to criticize Peng at the Lushan Conference"

Later life

• In 1949 Zhu was named Commander-in-Chief of the People's Liberation Army (PLA); thus posterity regards him as a principal founder of the PLA.[40]

The second clause strikes me as a non sequitur.

• The first paragraph of this section is a little jarring, with too many In 1949, In 1951, In 1955 type introductory clauses. Try to smoothen this out so it flows better.
• He just gave some mild criticisms of Peng

Reword this so it's tone is encyclopedic, rather that colloquial.

• The last four sentences use the word death too often. Also, avoid the one-sentence paragraph that ends the section.

Sourcing

• I'm not sure what's going on with note 4. Notes 5 and 24 are to dead links, so either you need to find a working link or replace them as citations.
• Tidy the format of your references, which is oddly just one.

Addressed all of this. Thanks for reviewing insofar. QatarStarsLeague (talk) 01:44, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

The source for Note 42 has nothing about his "overseeing" the PLA during the Korean War. Also, Answers.com is not exactly a reliable source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:4040:2115:6E00:884:A31F:75FC:5519 (talk) 00:01, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Conclusion

This article is well-written, verifiable, neutral, and stable. Its coverage is broad, and, where appropriate, it is illustrated with images. I am happy to pass this GAN; nice job! Rationalobserver (talk) 15:54, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks a million! QatarStarsLeague (talk) 18:49, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Commander in Chief

If the post has revived, that is utterly different from being a successor. Maybe a new section should be added to explain. --GwydionM (talk) 08:12, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

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Recent changes - October 2020

My main objection is that he was a conventional warlord for many years and then quit this role to become a Communist. The change obscures that.

Please rethink and be more accurate, if you want to make changes.--GwydionM (talk) 09:25, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Zhu was a warlord for 11 years, and a communist commander for 50. If you want to mention that some 20% of his adult life was spent as something other than a communist, perhaps you should think about justifying that decision. .DOR (HK) (talk) 22:35, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

General and strategist

Someone thought they were the same. Generals mostly command a battle, tactics. Not all get an independent command, which needs some skill at strategy.

Tactics is about winning battles. Strategy is about winning a war, sometimes without battles. GwydionM (talk) 07:24, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Later life / recent edit

Is there some reason for the "Order Number One" sending officials out of Beijing and Zhu's status on the Politburo / Standing Committee? Having the two in the same paragraph implies there is a link, but none is mentioned. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 22:40, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Zhu De's Hakka roots (or lack thereof)

Smedley's The Great Road (the cited source of the info that Zhu was not a Hakka) is a bit ambiguous on this subject: she never explicitly writes that Zhu wasn't a Hakka but instead refers to others as Hakka in a way that implies Zhu himself was not, e.g. "General Chu Teh’s chief of staff, General Yeh Chien-ying, was himself a Hakka, as were many of his troops and a number of his commanders" (p. 23). The biography of Zhu De (朱德传) compiled by the CPC Central Committee Party Literature Research Center (中共中央文献研究室) and published in 1993 (with a revised edition in 2006) states the following about Zhu's Hakka roots (pagination from the two-volume reprint of 2016):

朱德的祖上原是广东省韶关县的客家人。Zhu De's ancestors were originally Hakkas from Shaoguan County, Guangdong Province. (p. 1)

朱德回到家乡后，用祖上传下的客家话问堂兄弟：“你们为啥都这么黄皮寡瘦，说话都吊不起气？” After Zhu De returned to his hometown, he asked his cousins in the Hakka language handed down from their ancestors: "Why are you so sallow and thin? Why is it so exhausting to speak?" (p. 834)

These appear to be the only mentions of Zhu De's Hakka ancestry in the entire 890-page text, which suggests he didn't make much of it. That might account for Smedley's apparent unawareness.

I could just go ahead and add this info to the article, since I think a quasi-official biography compiled within the last few decades trumps an ambiguous passage in an unfinished biography from the 1950s. But I thought it best to bring it up here first in case anyone has more insight into this question. -206.77.150.85 (talk) 23:32, 13 November 2023 (UTC)