Talk:Winton Castle

Winton House or Winton Castle

@Pauljamesnixon: I've created this section on the talk page so that we can discuss sourcing for your suggested change in name. GirthSummit _(blether) 13:07, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

@Girth Summit:Thank you for creating this section. The evidence collected to date consists of:-
Map of Haddingtonshire 1799 surveyed by William Forrest https://maps.nls.uk/view/74400258 shows Castle at Winton's location.

In addition to this the British War Office Map of 1916 refers to Winton as Winton Castle.
In the village of Pencaitland there is "Castle View" which overlooks Winton Castle, which can be seen on any maps.

More recently the 3 articles Scottish Field referrer to Winton Castle -

There are a whole host of other directories which now call Winton, Winton Castle.
https://www.venuefinder.com/venues/winton_castle/v9894/
https://www.eventopedia.com/venue-finder/listing/Winton-Castle
https://www.filmedinburgh.org/Locations/Winton-Castle-931
https://www.entrycentral.com/wintoncastle
https://www.visitscotland.com/info/accommodation/winton-castle-east-lothian-p874541
https://www.green-tourism.com/visit/winton-castle/listing-707/
https://www.meetingedinburgh.com/Winton-Castle-562
http://www.appetitedirect.com/our-venues/winton-castle/
https://georgegoldsmith.com/property/winton-castle/
https://scotlandsgardens.org/winton-house/

In order for the article to be more accurate, would a title "Winton Castle" be more appropriate? Pauljamesnixon (talk) 14:02, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Hi @Pauljamesnixon:, thanks for providing these links.

• The maps look like reliable sources - they provide evidence that the building has sometimes been known as Winton Castle
• The street name tells us nothing - we could discuss whether it was called that because the building was called Winton Castle, or because it was locally and colloquially referred to as 'the castle', or because the person who named the street wanted to make it sound more grand - but any such speculation would be WP:OR and/or WP:SYNTH. We must pass over this point.
• The 'Scottish Field' articles to not appear to meet WP:RS - if I understand correctly, they are reprinted press releases (the website describes them as 'Winton Castle Posts')
• The directory listings presumably give the name and address of the business currently operating there, rather than the name of the historic building.

I think the difference between the building, and the business, is key here. The owners of the business can call it whatever they want, of course, and there is no doubt that the business is called Winton Castle. What the building is called, and has historically been called, is a slightly different matter.

On the one had, we have two maps calling the building Winton Castle - one dating from 1799, the other from 1916. On the other, we have the 1856 OS map, Historic Scotland's various listing documents, and Pevsner, all calling it Winton House. It seems to me that the majority of reliable sources refer to it as Winton House, and that's the name we should use. I propose that the article should remain as Winton House, but that we should include a sentence in the body of the text, referred to in the lead, saying that it has also sometimes been called Winton Castle, and citing these two maps. I would also be happy to note in the lead that it is currently run as a conference centre etc., called Winton Castle. Would be interested to know your thoughts. GirthSummit _(blether) 09:09, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Thank you @Girth Summit: for your reply. My understanding it that both Pevsner and Historic Scotland calls Winton a House because at the time of research and building the database that is what they were instructed/informed and not necessarily the historically correct name . I have asked Historic Scotland to verify this and am seeking the title deeds, which should settle what the official name is. Would you agree that the name on the title deeds (if they indeed exist) should be the true name used?

Hi @Pauljamesnixon: - a couple of things before I address your question. First, it would be useful if you could take a quick look at WP:INDENT, as a guide to indenting comments on talk pages - it just helps keep track of who is saying what. Also, when you have pinged me the last couple of times, you've been inserting a space before my username - that has been stopping the ping from working, I've only noticed your comments because I've come back and looked at the talk page. Finally, please try to remember to sign your posts.

Regarding the title deeds, they alone would not be usable as sources because they are not published. Have you read our guide to finding reliable sources yet? One key point is that our sources have to be WP:Verifiable (this policy is also worth reading). If the title deeds aren't published anywhere, just sitting in an archive, then they aren't verifiable to other readers - using them would be original research, which isn't permitted. We always go with what reliable, independently-published sources say, even if we think they might be wrong for some reason. If the deeds are found, and reliable sources start calling the building Winton Castle, then we would have grounds to change the name of our article. In the meantime, what do you think of my proposed changes above? GirthSummit _(blether) 17:16, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Hi @Girth Summit: Thank you for your patience with me being a new user. As a starting point your suggestion to update the lead text is welcome although the term "exclusive use events venue and private home" would be more fitting than "conference centre". I would like to revisit this discussion again in the future should I be able to build new evidence in support of a name change.

The lead photograph on the article is also the back of the castle, which is a little strange and I am not sure why? I do not believe it is typical for a Wikipedia entry for a building typically shows the back? How do we set about changing this?Pauljamesnixon (talk) 15:08, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

No problem @Pauljamesnixon:, there's a lot to get to grips with when you start editing. Briefly:

• I don't mind 'events venue'; I'm not sure about the 'exclusive use' bit, it sounds a bit promotional and it's not exactly an every day term. I'll draft something and insert it, and you can let me know what you think.
• Regarding the photograph, it's possible that when the article was created, the editor was limited by the range of images available in the public domain - we have to be careful about copyright, see WP:IUP. I assume that you have access to lots of images of the building, which would be great, we would just need to be clear about the licensing. If you own the copyright of a better image, and are willing to upload it and license its use per the instructions, then we should be fine to swap the existing image for a better one. GirthSummit _(blether) 15:54, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Thank you @Girth Summit: "Exclusive-use" is a legal term used to describe that a venue is only ever used by one event at a one time. This is different to a simple events space which my have several simultaneous events running at any one time. Here is evidence of the term being used https://definitions.uslegal.com/e/exclusive-use-property/

We have a number of stock images which we own so copyright is not an issue - forgive my ignorance but how to I change it?

Hi @Pauljamesnixon: - thanks for that link, but I still don't really like 'exclusive-use' in the lead - we're not promoting the company's services, we're describing the house and its history. There is already a link to the website in the 'External Links' section, where interested readers can find out all about the services.

There are two steps to changing the image - first, you have to upload the file to Wikipedia's servers (while handing over rights for anyone to use it freely); then, you insert a link to it into the article. I can help you with the second step, but I've never uploaded an image file myself, so you'll have to read up on that yourself. I believe that there are instructions on uploading images in the links I gave you above. Once the picture is uploaded, it's quite simple to insert it into the article - if you look at the page in 'Edit mode' as it currently stands, you'll see the following text at the top of the page: [[File:Historic Winton House.jpg|thumb|right|300px|Winton House]]. That's what causes the image to be displayed - you would simply have to replace the 'Historic Winton House.jpg' with the name of the file you want to use. I can do that for you once you've uploaded the image. Cheers GirthSummit _(blether) 12:45, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Hello @Girth Summit:. Thank you for your reply. I have found further examples from similar properties listed on Wikipedia who use the term "exclusive use"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendville_(manor_house)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinross_House

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dundas_Castle

I believe that the term has been widely used and is therefore appropriate to this article. Incidentally the Dundas Castle listing has a Facilities section, which arguably tends to major on a more promotional piece - would you not agree?

I think I have managed to upload a more accurate image showing the front of the building. If appropriate, I can upload more images to help give the piece more depth and readers a better understanding?

Hi @Pauljamesnixon: - sorry for the slow response, I just saw your latest post - please note that it's the act of signing a post that triggers pings to be sent; you forgot to sign, so I didn't get a notification that you'd posted. I'll look through the other pages you've linked to, and get back to you this evening. GirthSummit _(blether) 13:52, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Hi @Pauljamesnixon: I had a look at those other pages - to be honest, I think that they are somewhat over-promotional, and I might take a closer look at some of them at some point. While I still don't like the term 'exclusive-use', I concede that it's not as unusual as I thought, so I've added in to the lead and the 'current use' section. I see that you've replaced the picture - the new one looks good, although I replaced the caption to match the article title. I'm thinking about adding an infobox down the side as well, showing a map, listing status, date built etc. GirthSummit _(blether) 17:28, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Hello @Girth Summit:. Thank you for your replay. I like the idea of there being an infobox on this page, is there anything more you need from me to help with this? Pauljamesnixon (talk) 11:51, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

I don't think so Pauljamesnixon, I think I have all I need to do it; I'll let you know if I need anything though, thanks. GirthSummit _(blether) 12:53, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Addition of maps as sources

Hi @Girth Summit: - would you mind finding an appropriate place to cite the 2 maps we talked about on 6th November in the article please?Pauljamesnixon (talk) 17:05, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Hi Pauljamesnixon - I've started a new section, just to make it easier to follow, hope that's OK by you.

I'm not sure that there is currently an appropriate place to put them - there aren't any assertions that they would be useful to support. I guess that we could add a paragraph somewhere into the article, where we discuss the issue of the name of the building in a bit more depth. We'd then be able to use these maps to support the assertion that there is some historical evidence to suggest that it has sometimes been known as Winton Castle; however, if we do that, we'd also have to add a stronger assertion to the effect that the majority of reliable historical sources call it Winton House. Is that something that you think that article would benefit from? GirthSummit _(blether) 17:24, 23 November 2018 (UTC)