Talk:Wassail

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A version of this is drank around Halloween and Christmas in east Texas and Louisiana. It is made by melting red hots into (non alcoholic) Apple cider. 107.77.168.42 (talk) 00:14, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

[german Cuisine]

This drink has nothing to do with german cuisine. Reading This articleIt seems to be of germanic origin and a brtish christmas tradition but is nothing german at all. I am going to remove the link to the list german cuisine again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.145.242.211 (talk) 21:45, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Caroling and Pagans

Ok As far as I know, "Wassailing" is the equivalent of going carol singing in christian tradition. Pagans also used to sing carols and these were adapted by christians. They tend to be about food drink and dancing naked, having sex etc. Lots of fun. Can anyone confirm? If not I'll just have to ask this guy Tim from Glastonbury who tries to restore christianised carols. It's also the apple/health thing...

Yes, tis true. Wassailing was a form of caroling where the performers expected to be treated to a warm pie of any sorts ;) No independant evidence, and no I wasn't alive then. I did medeivel recreationism for a time, and enjoyed wassailin even tho I didn't get anything. The only songs we did sing were for a family inclined audience tho, so I dont know about the lewd stuff, but yes, food, drink dancing, fun, whatnot... Joe I 22:13, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Lewd songs have been sung in celebration of multiple holidays by many groups for ages, so to designate some just used in the winter holiday season by a certain group of people (although "pagan" has so many definitions) is kind of hard. As far as the carols, a lot of Christmas carols are orginally Christian (there are wiki articles on this), and a lot of plain-out carols like Jingle Bells are young, nonpartisan songs. However, it's pretty easy to find neopagan versions of them, like here: [1] I wouldn't say this is "restoring" but hey. --Teddywithfangs 06:33, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

You're right, of course. We know precious little about ACTUAL pre-Christian customs of northern Europe, due to the lack of written records from those cultures. Any modern attempt to "reconstruct" ancient pagan carols is purely speculative. 65.213.77.129 (talk) 18:23, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I have lived in the American South my entire life, and I have never once even heard of Russian Tea, much less heard that it is a tradition. Can anyone else confirm that statement? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.148.111.26 (talk) 22:51, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Picture

Can someone put a picture of Wassail on here? Bdodo1992 (talk) 22:30, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Rushing with Russian Tea [sic]

I don't think it's "Russian tea" but rather "rush'n tea," because the recipe involves a kind of spice powder that makes it a sort of instant drink -- one that can be made in a rush. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.138.146.136 (talk) 03:22, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Food and drink Tagging

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Inconsistent Paragraph

The first paragraph of 'Wassail as a Beverage' appears to be inconsistent:

It says 'Historically, the drink was a mulled cider' but proceeds to say 'While the beverage typically served as "wassail" at modern holiday feasts with a medieval theme most closely resembles mulled cider, historical wassail drinks were completely different, more likely to be mulled beer or mead.'

Could someone who knows more about this than me confirm which of these sentences are correct and ammend the paragraph accordingly? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.209.6.40 (talk) 17:09, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Exactly what I just signed in to bring to others' attention. It's a very confusing paragraph. One would think that since Wassailing involves concern about apple harvests that cider would've been the most typical base for the drink. Schoemann (talk) 09:05, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Rework of first paragraph

I only meant to fix some punctuation errors in the first paragraph that cause me to repeatedly garden-path in reading it, but on getting into it, I realized that the semantics of the paragraph were vague and convoluted, as well, so I just reworked it. I did attempt to merely simplify and clarify, while retaining the semantic content intact. I began with small syntactic fixes, but quickly realized that they were caused, to some extent, by underlying semantic problems, and the edit just grew, until I found myself doing a simple rewrite using the core phrases as the basic simplicity of the item relationships in the paragraph became obvious. No insult intended to anyone, so if you feel I've trodden too heavily, especially in changing the original writer's style, I won't be offended in turn should my edits be redacted, although I do feel strongly that they are a distinct improvement. It's the old English prof in me—just won't let me stop once I get going, until I've reduced things to their simplest, most elegant terms. Or maybe that's the old math major in me....<g>

On another subject, Russian Tea, I, too hail from the US South, and also never heard of it until staying with a family in Wyoming. They used it to refer to a 50\50 mix of Tang and instant tea, served hot. I have no idea of the provenance of the name.

UrbanCyborg (talk) 06:48, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

I like it. Do more of that.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 11:27, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Drink?

I think "wassail" is more than the drink.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:37, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Yep, it's a verb, wassailing, involving singing and seasonal carrying on. Kortoso (talk) 17:13, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

"mead – ale"?

It's either one or the other. Different recipes vary, so I would suggest an "or" in there somewhere. Kortoso (talk) 17:12, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Chepstow-wassail butler.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:06, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

The use of blackface images for Wassailing

There has been blackface used to reference wassailing. Without the proper context in the article and with no reference to blackface, the image or any image of blackface should be avoided. Even with reference, one should link to the wassailing page where a picture of blackface as it relates to wassailing would be more appropriate. Images of blackface should be avoided unless directly relevant and contextualized as they are racist imagery and offensive. Jwayne33 (talk) 18:43, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

I believe it's important to remember the article is very lucid wassailing's ancient origins. When a practice or custom is literally medieval, there is a much higher chance of it not being seen in favorable light today as opposed to one manufactured in modern era (but even then, compare the controversy of Baby It's Cold Outside). It is important to note that the image in question still happens even in Britain to this day, despite efforts especially in recent years and highlighted by media to quash it. Mostly in more rural locales and more among the less educated, etc., of course. But even if it were 100% absent, the context of wassailing's checkered and long-winded history that this particular sub-practice occurs also going back centuries is inherent. As I explained in my edit, quoting Warner Bros' disclaimer on some of their cartoons which contained offensive racial depictions and the like (as opposed to deleting them in damnatio memoriae): "because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed". This is hardly the first Yuletide tradition which most would say did not age well; many would in fact claim that this article promotes unhealthy romanticism or rose-colored glasses without context like this.--~Sıgehelmus♗_(Tøk) 04:21, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't think an article about the beverage wassail is improved by having an out-of-context photograph of a celebrant in blackface.

We can add context to this article. That would be better than just leaving the image in here without context.

However, how relevant is this to an article about a beverage? The use of blackface isn't even mentioned, much less shown, in the article specific to wassailing. Furthermore, isn't the use of blackface more directly related to the topic of Morris dance, with a whole article devoted to the topic of blackface and Morris dance Davidwbaker (talk) 18:03, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

No one's provided additional feedback, so I'll be bold and remove the out-of-context photo. This seems superior than adding context about blackface and English folk rituals. This is an article about a beverage, after all. Davidwbaker (talk) 16:01, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. The image does show a bowl, but there are many other images that can be used to illustrate that without needlessly invoking potential sensitivities, especially undiscussed ones. This article is about the drink, not the act of wassailing (a different article). We should not be selecting low-resolution blurry images that some readers – maybe many – will find shocking unless there is a good encyclopedic reason to do so. Otherwise, it seems like a WP:POINT is being made. MichaelMaggs (talk) 20:22, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Is a good encyclopaedic reason not given by @Sigehelmus? The File:Shirehampton wassail music.jpg image used is if anything even less relevant and not much less blurry. Whatever the majority verdict is should stand but I do think that taking out a reference to a cultural practice because it is not well explained will just lead to it not being explained. Removing it could come under censorship as much as it WP:POINT. It'd be nice to have an uncontroversial, clearer picture but if it is a real practice then I feel it shouldn't be hidden. Ingwina (talk) 05:58, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I have provided my concerns with the reason Sigehelmus has given. He's asserted that this image is typical of wassailing, even to this day. Are there sources that support that assertion?

My rudamentary understanding is that this is typical of a different English folk tradition, and is already described in the articles on Morris dance and Blackface and Morris dancing.

If Sigehelmus is correct and that blackface is an integral part of wassailing, putting this image here, on an article about a beverage, doesn't seem like the best first step. I's propose first adding it to the article on wassailing and add all the missing context of the "checkered" practice (as Sigehelmus puts it) that apparently ought to be in that article, as has been done for Morris dance. Davidwbaker (talk) 06:44, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Sigehelmus's argument leans heavily on "ancient origins", "literally medieval", and so on, giving the impression that wearing black makeup while consuming the drink is also ancient. While some sort of drink called 'wassail' is indeed old, clear sourcing will be needed to establish any old tradition that would make that image relevant. Of course it happened, and maybe it still does in a few places (even though the photo is 16 years old), but where is the evidence that supports it being on this page? Per WP:BURDEN and WP:BALANCE, those who want to add the image bear the burden of finding evidence, and showing that this is something integral to the custom and not merely a minor aberration, for example simply copied in a few areas from the Morris Dancers and Mummers (many of whom in modern practice tend to be the same group of people). And anyway, to repeat myself, this article is not even about any custom; it's about the drink. MichaelMaggs (talk) 16:38, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I am still unsure of the best action (though it seems most think it best to be gone) but I do see the logic in the argument that we don't know if this is a one off without supporting information and therefore if it is of sufficient relevance :) Ingwina (talk) 06:44, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Wow, I thought this had already been put to rest last October when the original photo was removed. I think the best course of action has been taken. Racist imagery in general should be avoided, but especially when its relevance is minimal if not unrelated completely. Jwayne33 (talk) 00:11, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Merge proposal

I propose merging "Wassailing" with "Wassail". There is significant overlap between the topics, from the wassail bowl section in "Wassailing" article being just as relevant to "Wassail", to similar lyrics appearing in both articles (e.g. here and here). NB that as in the Apple Wassail, "wassail" can refer to the activity as well as the drink. Both articles have a 20-year history; I have a slight preference for the merged article to be at "wassail". —  AjaxSmack  17:27, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, indeed, I've considered tackling this several times myself. There's absolutely no reason for two articles. MichaelMaggs (talk) 18:17, 17 December 2024 (UTC)