Talk:War of 1812/Archive 29

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Not A Neutral Article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This article states more often than not that the cause of the war was British actions. The historians quoted supporting this view, however, are all American and their objectivity is obviously questionable.

Needs a discussion as to whether this is an American-centric article and should be more neutral as per Wikipedia guidelines. Sheppey Red (talk) 18:43, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Provide examples, because I don't see a real problem.

There is a wide variety of opinions in the United States on the War of 1812. U.S. historians Ronald Drez and Troy Bickham clearly don't share the same opinion of this war. Same with U.S. historians Donald Hickey and George Daughan.

I would like to know why Benn and Lambert are still quoted on the main article. Lambert is just a Royal Naval enthusiast with very heavy anti-American rhetoric who failed to research the land campaign. Benn's information is better but very outdated; the book is not nearly as informative as Taylor or Toll.

American-centric would be that the United States won. The main article is far from that perspective. I would argue that the article gives too much emphasis to the Canadas based on modern popular perception. Ironic Luck (talk) 00:44, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

It is often screamed that this article is tilted. One gentleman took it as a personal crusade to have the article state that the British won for 13 years. Throughout the report, we took pains to present the facts and only the facts without commentary of any sort. While a small war, it is a complex one. Some Canadians would swear on a stack of bibles that American greed was the only reason the war started. Some Americans insist that since we kept the country whole, we won. However, there is ample documentation on both the American Government of the time and the British that maritime trade was the issue.

The object of contention over the last 15 years that I have been involved as an editor on this article has been the outcome section. There are and remain wars that do not lend themselves as a won/lost outcome. This war was one of them. Having read through the letters and memorandum of both governments, it becomes apparent that both sides wanted out of a war that had no chance of ever ending outside of a settlement.

As with the American Revolutionary War, trying to supply and equip an army for continuous operations from across the Atlantic Ocean was all but impossible in the age of sail. Moreover, the lack of a good transportation network crippled any offensive operation from either side of the US/Canadian border. Further, the one edge the British enjoyed in land operations, a professional military, had disappeared when American professional military formations began appearing.

British proponents will point with pride the accomplishments of the Royal Navy. Rightly so. But, America didn't need trade as anything but a profit center. As I have repeatedly stated, neither side ever concluded a successful offensive campaign.

From the long view, the America of 1812 was unwilling to change society to field a large professional army and build a road network to enable a successful Canadian campaign. That same lack kept the British from accomplishing attempts to move forward with such ended in disasters. The two sides were like drunken boxers able to hurt one another but never force a conclusion.Tirronan (talk) 18:24, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Side, or off-track, comment about professional militaries: I think that the main reason that Great Britain could field a significant professional military force in 1812 was that she was fighting Napoleon at the same time. Otherwise, from what I've read, the British have also (for broadly the same anti-authoritarian and thrifty motives as their American cousins) generally preferred a small full-time professional army in peacetime (preferably serving overseas) but the strongest Royal Navy possible. (As far back as the Middle Ages, England tried to keep a body of seasoned seamen by measures such as the Cinque Ports and meatless post-Reformation "political Fridays" to maintain a market for fish and work for fishermen.) Rudyard Kipling was a strenuous critic of popular (and he felt undeserved) disdain for the common soldier in works such as Tommy Atkins. In the first part of The Lion and the Unicorn: Socialism and the English Genius ("England your England") George Orwell wrote that the Englishman's "dislike of standing armies is a perfectly sound instinct. A navy employs comparatively few people, and it is an external weapon which cannot affect home politics directly. Military dictatorships exist everywhere, but there is no such thing as a naval dictatorship." —— Shakescene (talk) —— Shakescene (talk) 00:49, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

While I agree the article is a mess with a pro-American slant (e.g Britain's successful use of blockade & maritime power to strong-arm the United States' out of her demands over impressment/maritime belligerent rights- the casus belli for war to begin with- is largely glossed over), is it the quality of the arguments that matter and not the nationality of the historian. Would you accept the blithe dismissal, by an American moderator, of any analysis by British historians purely because the argument in question was/is being advanced by scholars from the UK, regardless of said argument's merit? No.

As an aside, there seems to be a sort of consensus (particularly after the bicentennial) on both sides of the Atlantic on certain issues: A. The attempt by the U.S. government to force concessions over maritime belligerent rights from the British was a failure B. Britain contained the American challenge by land and sea without shortchanging her successful military & diplomatic in Europe, the latter being the Liverpool Government's priority during this period. C. Naval Blockade & amphibious operations were the main weapon in Britain's arsenal, something which the US was woefully unprepared to deal with. The consequences can be deen during peace negotiations (the destruction of American economic power and therefore her ability to wage war, the large degree of impunity with which the RN and British Army pillaged the American coast). These have been mentioned in the article- but their consequence are underrepresented.

Instead, space is dedicated to the position that the war was a "draw" (per se) because Britain didn't obtain a peace on the basis of Uti Possidetis. There are three key flaws with this position, which go largely or totally ignored in the article: 1. Uti Possidetis was NOT a British sine qua non (i.e a key war aim) for peace. 2. The above is evidenced by the fact that the British Government was fully prepared to forego the prospect of serious strategic gain in North America if a peace could be secured which guaranteed their key war aims (defence of the Canadas, de facto control over Maritime belligerent rights). That is why the British government signed the Treaty of Ghent fully expecting the expedition against New Orleans to succeed. 3. The British government's priorities in Europe, at Vienna, were just as significant as American military success at Plattsburgh in making a Uti Possidetis peace impossible.

I've used British, Canadian and US sources to reach this conclusion (Donald Hickey, the US Naval War College, Brian Arthur, Donald Graves, Jon Latimer and Andrew Lambert). F.M. Sir D.H (talk) 16:42, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

The British were forced to compromise with a fledgling nation.

There was no consensus during the bicentennial. There was a lot of propaganda pushed by the Canadian government (and their popular historians like Ron Dale who promoted annexation theory) during the bicentennial and the British historians pushed out books that lacked proper research (i.e. Lambert). Lambert was criticized by Hickey for his lack of research done.

The United States did not put much (if any) promoting material into the War of 1812 because it was not an interesting war. The American Civil War and World War II were still in the general public’s minds and were (to be blunt) more popular.

The British lost all influence within the United States boarders. All supporters of the British were defeated (i.e. Tecumseh’s Confederacy, Red Stick Creeks, Spanish Florida) and reputations ruined and even chased out of states (i.e. A Federalist sheriff who smuggled for the British was chased out of Maine in post-War of 1812).

Madison was informed that the British stopped impressing sailors and dropped the demand. Why did he need to “spike the football” and demand the British place it in writing when they (in practice) were not doing this? The United States did not need to force concessions because the British actively avoided impressing American sailors in the post-War of 1812 era and during the Hundred Days War. The fact that this is lost on you is concerning . . .

Territory claimed. Impressment ended. Should the Americans claim victory? I see the British tried to salvage from embarrassments that hurt their reputation due to the early American naval successes in the war, but the British left the War of 1812 as a humiliated nation. The British publications of that era did not rejoice in celebration as the United States did.

This was not a war that I would call a “great success” for the Royal Navy. The Royal Navy failed in the early half of the war on the Atlantic Ocean and (as a world power compared to the United States). As for sea, Lake Erie or Champlain were certainly not British successes.

The British failed to contain the American “challenge” by land as they still held territory by the end and only relinquished it when the glorified cease-fire at Ghent commenced. Dudley’s Raid occurred in November 1814 and plans to build more ships were put in place until the Treaty of Ghent was signed (and ratified).

As for “impunity,” I find it interesting you say that when the British lost more Major Generals and (overall) higher ranked figures in this war than the Americans did. The Duke of Wellington lost his brother-in-law over this war and Cochrane’s reputation was soiled. And I agree on Hickey in that the peace was won (something you forget) as the British were forced to pay for compensation for the losses of the free slaves as cited from Alan Taylor.

Lambert has been disingenuous as he lied about the British not paying for the escaped slaves in television documentaries and Arthur (the latter that has acted as “Lambert Jr.,”) were both from the same think-tank that promotes British nationalism. Arthur was very critical of historian Wade Dudley and (to a much lesser extent) Ian Toll. Arthur wrote on Dudley’s book (within his own), “Dudley’s conclusion that the British blockades of the United States were comparatively unsuccessful neither appraises their consequences nor bears close examination.” Arthur claimed that since the United States didn’t “force” the blockade off of them and that it caused a net income loss that they would lose – and ergo “lost” the war.

Lambert and Arthur are in a minority view that the “British won the war.” I keep seeing the British repeat the “strong-arm” stance against the United States from a handful of loud British nationalists, but the British wanted out of this war and abandoned all demands (many of which were very desirable or arguably needed) and hit a net-negative when nearly all of their allies whom remained within the United States boarders were left to the wolves.

You have not read Alan Taylor, Ian Toll, George Daughan, Ronald Drez, or any other historian? This would explain a lot. I am curious as to whom (in the US Naval War College) were the researchers at the time? Ironic Luck (talk) 02:16, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

American "special operation" slant. Moxy- 00:59, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

It's extremely convenient that Anglo-Canadian historians are "nationalists" in the minority view for suggesting a war that left the US financially exhausted and with no concessions without short-changing Britain's war effort in Europe was a success for London... while American-based historians who advance the blatantly nationalistic "plucky, fledgling country standing up to the nasty Empire" view are not? The fact that America was left vulnerable by her inadequately sized navy and run ragged by British naval might is an argument that dates back to Roosevelt and Mahan, and the navalist party in late 19th century America. You know, those notorious British "nationalists" Mahan and Roosevelt? Or, that the US didn't go "toe to toe" with Britain considering the latter's major entanglements in Europe at the time (without which Madison wouldn't have led the nation into the conflict in the first place?)

"The British were forced to compromise with a fledgling nation" - In what way? Certainly not over the maritime issues which were the at the very centre of the conflict between the two countries.

"Madison was informed that the British stopped impressing sailors and dropped the demand. Why did he need to “spike the football” and demand the British place it in writing when they (in practice) were not doing this? The United States did not need to force concessions because the British actively avoided impressing American sailors in the post-War of 1812 era and during the Hundred Days War. The fact that this is lost on you is concerning . . .

Territory claimed. Impressment ended. Should the Americans claim victory?"

None of this is true. This is either disingenuous on your part or plain ignorance. Albert Gallatin informed the US Government in mid-1814 that;

'America cannot by a continuance of the war compel Great Britain to yield any of the maritime points in dispute, and particularly to agree to any satisfactory agreement on the subject of impressment...the most favourable terms that can be expected [that is, despite the US starting the war] are the status ante bellum'

The United States was forced to drop all its demands over impressment and maritime belligerent rights at the outset of negotiations because...

A) The British would simply refuse to negotiate over the issue, and

B) Because the US had no bargaining chips with which to make demands as alluded to in Gallatin's letter [e.g military failure in the Canadas, running out of credit and cash to wage war due to the blockade etc].

The hiatus in the Napoleonic Wars did not render Britain's future right to these issues any less important. The reason no one was impressed after 1814 was the same reason Britain stopped interfering with neutral trade (not just American trade) - the Napoleonic Wars were over. The Hundred Days did not see a major economic blockade of mainland Europe by the Royal Navy, meaning pre-1814 maritime restrictions were not necessary. Therein lies the end of impressment: the defeat of Napoleon's France, which was also its root cause. To imply it was American belligerence that ended it is post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy.

In 1815 John Quincy Adams told Lord Castlereagh that Madison had recommended the exclusion of "non-native" sailors from the American merchant marine, a friendly gesture to help American trade avoid falling foul of British impressment laws. Evidently, America felt vulnerable to the unchanged system of trade regulation & impressment that continued to exist after Ghent. The claim the War of 1812 obtained any de facto or du jure concession on impressment is rubbish.

"I see the British tried to salvage from embarrassments that hurt their reputation due to the early American naval successes in the war, but the British left the War of 1812 as a humiliated nation. The British publications of that era did not rejoice in celebration as the United States did."

A smattering of America frigate victories against weaker opponents in 1812 (the nature of which the American press glossed over or outright lied about at the time) did not change the overall picture at sea, which was one of overwhelming British superiority. When British reinforcements arrived, the US Navy spent most of the war blockaded in port. Single ship actions were mainly contests for national honour and from the American side yielded no clear strategic benefit (as American naval messiah Alfred Mahan will also tell you). They did not assist a favourable outcome to the war save in terms of propaganda. The British also had the brilliant Shannon-Chesapeake action and the capture of the "super frigate" USS President to their laurels. So what? The deciding matter was maritime superiority, and the British demonstrated this when they crippled the US through economic blockade. British publications did welcome the peace, as did Lord Liverpool himself. The only deflated publications were hawkish ones such as Times and Morning Post. Not because Britain "lost" but because they thought America was let off too lightly by the peace.

"The Royal Navy failed in the early half of the war on the Atlantic Ocean..." No, it didn't. The RN detained the USN in port, instituted a devastating economic blockade which exhausted America's ability to wage war and could conduct amphibious operations along the coast almost at will. This was a cost-effective way to victory. It is utter nonsense to say the RN failed in its Atlantic campaign.

" Lake Erie or Champlain were certainly not British successes." American control of Lake Erie, negated as it was by British control of Huron and eventual dominance in the arms race on Ontario, did not translate into any serious inroads into Canada - the only way America could obtain a favourable outcome to the war.

"Arthur claimed that since the United States didn’t “force” the blockade off of them and that it caused a net income loss that they would lose – and ergo “lost” the war." Arthur's argument is that maritime economic warfare of the kind used against French-controlled Europe exhausted the USA's ability to wage war, denied her bargaining chips, and forced her to drop her demands over maritime rights or threaten Canada. He comprehensively refuted Dudley's claim the blockade was ineffective. His book has been lauded on both sides of the Atlantic.

"The British failed to contain the American “challenge” by land as they still held territory by the end and only relinquished it when the glorified cease-fire at Ghent commenced. Dudley’s Raid..."

Despite Canada being defended by a smattering of regulars, militia and Native warriors, two years of war had left the Americans with nothing to show for it save a toehold around Amhertsburg on the Detroit frontier. The British occupied Mackinac Island, large chunks of the old North West (Praire du Chein), forts on the American side of the Niagara Frontier and parts of Maine. The notion the British didn't utterly defeat the American land campaign- punctuated by battles such as Queenston Heights, Chateauguay, Chrysler's Farm and Lundy's Lane (strategic victory)- is nonsense. It's a position literally any half decent scholar would find mystifying.

"Hickey in that the peace was won (something you forget) as the British were forced to pay for compensation for the losses of the free slaves" Ummm. Hickey's view, in print and spoken word, is that the war was a military and political failure for the US (particularly regards impressment) and a defeat. We cannot pretend that the British compensating American slave owners, or the defeat of Native Confederacies which were beating beaten before the war with Britain, is a fig leaf to hide behind. F.M. Sir D.H (talk) 15:04, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

The War of 1812 was a favorable outcome. It led to the "Era of Good Feelings" and unified the nation. Personally, I think a “draw” or even “inconclusive” is a fair assessment. And you never answer whom (in the US Naval War College) were the researchers at the time? It’s a bold and strange claim to throw the institution out there but not cite a name (or names) behind the research. It’s clear that British "historians" from the same think-tank (Lambert, Arthur) would rather wave the Union Jack than accept their own shortcomings. You've created multiple straw man fallacies to create your own argument and demonstrated hypocrisy from it.

Impressment was kept on paper but ended in practice. The British avoided impressment as it was made clear that they did not wish to resume war. The only plausible chance of this was during the Hundred Days War and they never risked resuming war with the United States. Not to mention:

- Avoidance of the separate treaty over the legality of the Louisiana Purchase. There was even territory claimed by the United States from Spain. (The Surprising Strategic Consequences of the War of 1812 by Walter McDougall @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooUrBTRxl0o )

- Indian buffer state was clearly dropped and risked the end to negotiations if this hadn't been done.

- New Ireland was totally abandoned and many of the Federalists whom associated with the British were treated with shame for their involvement.

The vote to annex the Canadas never passed and had Florida at the title of discussion. It's even more telling in the following Seminole Wars when Jackson was willing to incite war with the British when he attacked the Colonial Marines (in Spanish Florida) and later executed two British citizens. The United States was still engaging in provocative actions for a (supposedly) “defeated” nation, despite Lambert’s and Arthur’s claims.

The Canadas were still under potential threat until the peace agreement was signed and ratified. Ships were still being built in preparation for further conflict (U.S.S. New Orleans and U.S.S. Chippawa) until the treaty was signed and ratified. It was from Admiral Sir David Milne (to a correspondent in 1817) that wrote, "we cannot keep Canada if the Americans declare war against us again"

You're completely engulfed in the Union Jack waving nonsense . . . I am aware that the reason the British stopped impressment was due to the initial defeat of Napoleon. I mentioned this about Napoleon in the past archives and the British never resumed this practice, but you continue to create a multitude of excuses as to why. My entire point was that it never resumed once the treaty was ratified and that the British refused to take risk in instigating a war with the United States over the maritime issue.

Madison dropped the demand of impressment when he was informed that the British were no longer acting on this practice. There was no need to fight over a maritime issue that resolved itself and could lead to a compromise. And unless you believe the United States would annex Canada (which it voted twice against doing so), this was a positive outcome for all parties involved, especially if the British were concerned of another war.

I've written this in the past archives, but I'll repeat here that this was a case of what was signed on paper (Hickey) versus what happened in actions (Daughan). The actions of the British demonstrated that they could not hold onto any of their gains without risk of significant loss. The British still suffered losses, some short-term but more long-term, with the chosen outcome of a compromise.

The British forfeited “Uti possidetis” for “Status quo ante bellum” because they hadn’t cleared their own territory. I would safely presume you’re aware of Wellington’s response to Lord Liverpool. They weren’t even capable in keeping the gains for themselves or their (supposed) allies in this conflict. The United States were the only party to actually claim territory in this war.

Arthur's opinion is in the significant minority. He had problems with Dudley's point system and Arthur didn't research enough on the land campaign compared to Alan Taylor. Arthur cites from a Federalist complaint about the bankruptcy that you brought up, but never detailed Massachusetts exceptionalism (which is partially behind the political divide) or the vandalism caused by Federalists thugs onto the Jeffersonians. I don’t even remember if he specified the exact name of the Federalist who made this claim. Arthur claims the blockade led to bankruptcy for the United States on pg.186, “By this time, however, the government has reached the point of actual bankruptcy,” which was disputed between RJensen and Coppit in earlier archives. Federalists (at state level) declared bankruptcy, but the Federal court did not make a proclamation of "insolvency." The Federalists' tactics to delay payments was grossly overlooked by Arthur. Arthur grudgingly admits that the British couldn't financially afford to help the Federalists with their secession movement (pg. 201), “However, had the Ghent treaty not been ratified it seems doubtful whether Britain would have been able to sponsor the separation of New England from the Union,” which also means New Ireland would have eventually failed according to Arthur.

Arthur failed to make a pressing argument that the United States lost the war as the damage was much more self-inflicted by Jefferson's incompetence than the British blockade. Some of the claims in Arthur’s book start with “if” and “should have been” opinions instead of concrete facts. Arthur treats Lambert’s word as as gospel and has only written this one book as a historian. The United States only needed shipments as a profit center (check Tirronan's post). Meanwhile, the United States permanently claimed territory from British allies (which the the British failed to prevent) and still kept the Canadas fearful in the coming years.

My point was that once ratification was set forth (February 1815) and the war was over, the British were forced to respect the United States on impressing American citizens when no respect existed prior to engaging in this war. The early half of the war was embarrassing for the British, even in the Atlantic. The Americans held no real Navy and won multiple single-duel ship engagements with a much larger military power. That was my entire point, but you got offended over the fact that the British weren't as dominate on the ocean (or at sea) as you perceive. The America press capitalized on the successes on the ocean. The British press were not optimistic about the outcome . . . The Dublin Evening Post (citation from Ronald Drez) wrote:

“The American War has closed with unmitigated dishonor for England.”

The Edinburgh Review wrote (citation from George Daughan),

“the British government had embarked on a war of conquest, after the American government had dropped its maritime demands, and the British had lost. It was folly to attempt to invade and conquer the United States. To do so would result in the same tragedy as the first war against them, and with the same result.”

You’ve misinterpreted my initial response to discuss the fact that the British had . . . more ships in the ocean? Thanks, I am aware. I said the British embarrassed themselves in the early half, but I never claimed that the British didn't make up for some of the embarrassment. The blockade was strong on the eastern coast, but (accordingly to Dudley on pg.183) never approached a span portrayed by Mahan. “In truth, by the measures of that day it is proved less than fully effective when compared to the blockades of France, and it certainly placed Britain in a more precarious seat at Ghents bargaining table than the chair that country enjoyed in Paris and, later at Vienna.” It would have also proved expensive to maintain that blockade and the British were very war-weary themselves from Napoleonic France. That being said, the United States continued to fight well into 1815. The United States even won naval battles when the war was over. You're totally incapable of giving credit to any American success, but it is not surprising.

Hickey has noted that the argument is debatable. I made mention of this before, but Hickey's opinion is still in the minority in that it was an American defeat. Donald Hickey on the "200 Years of American War" (in 2021) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmPrmglyYho) mentions this, but the video was VERY recently set to “private” sometime after you made your response. Personally, I find the timing of this rather curious . . . And there is no pretending, Hickey's opinion is that the Americans lost the war but the British lost the peace. No self-respecting historian would claim that the British “never paid for the slaves” like Lambert. The British certainly didn't benefit from third party arbitration from Russia. The Native tribes were still in conflict with the United States in the War of 1812 and (despite your claims) Tecumseh' Confederacy and the Red Stick Creeks were defeated during the war effort.

The British embarrassed themselves with the Guerriere, Java, and various other single-ship duels that allowed the American press to focus ON those battles in the Atlantic. When everyone was shocked that the British were losing battles on the ocean, it is an embarrassment. It does not mean "toe to toe" as there was a clear power imbalance between the two nations. On page 107 (Dudley), “Wellington had developed a low opinion of the Admiralty by the end of 1813, and he certainly knew the cause of his problem: an unblockaded United States and the horde of privateers harrying his supply line.” The British knew to address this in the latter half of the war. And there is no “negating” American success at Lake Erie as it was in American control til the end of the war. There was a clear American resistance against the British offensive and was ongoing into mid-1815 due to slow communication. The United States maintained resistance and even captured the Cyane in February of 1815. The British should have easily captured the USS Constitution if they were as dominating in naval waters as you've claimed . . .

What historians have you read? I noticed you never disputed that you didn't read the historians "Alan Taylor, Ian Toll, George Daughan, Ronald Drez, or any other historian" of whom I listed as examples? Again, it would explain a lot. Ironic Luck (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 12:04, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

What is ironic here, aside from your user name, are your accusations of flag waving, while your attempts to denigrate British historians such as Lambert and Arthur by claiming they are liars, anti-American and promoters of British nationalism, is the sort of behaviour I associate with a child. For the record, Andrew Lambert is a naval historian and Professor of Naval History in the Department of War Studies at King's College, who previously taught at the Royal Naval Staff College, Greenwich, and the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst. He is a fellow of the Royal Historical Society and director of the Laughton Naval Unit. Toll, whose book has been used extensively in this article, could more rightly be described as a naval enthusiast.

I think it's pretty much universally accepted that Lord Liverpool's government was forced to back away from harsh peace terms, and instead settle the war on the basis of the status quo, because continuing the war was threatening the delicate negotiations at the Congress of Vienna and the British electorate opposed the high costs, and not because of any great American victory. --Ykraps (talk) 07:52, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

"is the sort of behaviour I associate with a child."

Ykraps, I don't (and will never) expect an unbiased perspective from you. You are one of the most blatant flag wavers on this topic. I asked in an earlier archive to clarify your support for a “British victory” outcome change which was not a neutral point of view. You claimed that it was a "school of thought," but it seems to be a Lambert-Arthur school of thought? Or maybe it's a "Fellow of the Royal Historical Society" school of thought as Troy Bickham is also a member of their community? I can still find American sources whom counter the "British-Canadian victory" myth. Arthur and Lambert have needlessly thrown stones at their American readers and other historians related to this topic. Speaking of which . . . Glass houses, Ykraps, your screen name is a punch line for any plumber. The lack of citation is noted from you.

"For the record, Andrew Lambert is a naval historian and . . ."

I expected sources for clarification, but you gave me a resume from Mr. Lambert? Lambert expressed extreme exaggerations as facts and leaves himself among a significant minority on the "outcome" of this war.

"and not because of any great American victory."

Rubbish. Perhaps you're getting old, but you should recall that Plattsburgh directly influenced negotiations. What has Toll written or stated that would discredit him to be seen as a "naval enthusiast"? Ironic Luck (talk) 11:22, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

You really need to reign in the unwarranted accusations and mud-slinging if you wish to be taken seriously. I don’t recall ever having advanced the case for a British victory or a victory for any of the belligerents for that matter On the contrary, I’ve made it quite clear that I believe everyone lost and that there’s no agreement on the outcome. [[1]] [[2]] [[3]]

Whereas you (as I now realise) was using the term naval enthusiast as an insult, I was using it to differentiate Toll from a naval historian such as Lambert

Blithely dismissing (as User:F.M. Sir D.H puts it) British historians while claiming others are flag waving and non-neutral is laughable. --Ykraps (talk) 19:52, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

You've failed to communicate your position with me in the past, so you'll have to forgive me if I don't take your position seriously now. I asked you to clarify how a "British victory - Stalemate" was an unbiased perspective and you refused to respond back to me in Archive 24. You took more issue with the "stalemate" than the "British victory" from my experience with you.

I'm not sure if we can have a civil discussion, but it is good that you’re linking to earlier posts you made now. Ironic Luck (talk) 15:03, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

The war allowed the Republican Party of the era to unite America behind a new nationalistic consensus and emerging identity away from Europe, defeating the Administration’s domestic political opponents (Federalists) in the aftermath. Does this also mean the war was a success against the British, in pursuit of the core reasons it was originally declared? No. Contemporary Federalists were particularly fierce in making the latter point.

RE the US Naval War College and Mahan et al: you will have to forgive me. It was the Naval Institute ( https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/1990/april/naval-historians-and-war-1812). As for Lambert and Arthur, you haven’t dealt with their arguments, rather just slighted their objectivity and claimed they must be biased by virtue of being British. Nor dealt with the fact the US government could neither raise adequate funds for the war and was without credit by 1815 as per Brian Arthur.

“The British avoided impressment as it was made clear that they did not wish to resume war. The only plausible chance of this was during the Hundred Days War and they never risked resuming war with the United States… the British refused to take risk in instigating a war with the United States over the maritime issue… Madison dropped the demand of impressment when he was informed that the British were no longer acting on this practice”

And my point, is that this is conjecture and falsehood. I'll outline it one final time. The British interfered with no foreign trade, and impressed no sailors from foreign ships whatsoever during the Hundred Days (American or otherwise) because they weren’t blockading Europe. Not because they were scared of “resuming a war” with a country they’d just …

A.     Coerced into a diplomatic climb-down over those very same issues.

B.     Who wasn’t in any position to prosecute further hostilities against Britain

The British deliberately refused to discuss the issues of impressment, irregular blockade or compensation for seizure of vessels under the Orders in Council from the outset of negotiations in 1814. The Americans dropped the issue (one they were still trying to rectify in the aftermath of Ghent) after advice from Albert Gallatin (quoted previously) that they had no bargaining chips to demand its end. Not because Madison was informed the British weren’t doing it or some other invented crock.

Blockade and the impressment needed to run it were a wartime measure: a form of economic warfare against the French Empire. French domination of Europe did not return during the Hundred Days. If it had, America would’ve been vulnerable - hence the aforementioned discussions in 1815/1816 between Quincy Adams and Lord Castlereagh vis a vis impressment. As they realised the British would not yield the matter, they change tac from requesting an outright end to impressment- to suggesting its termination only in the present hostilities, to eventually abandoning any pretence of negotiating over it at all (see particularly Castlereagh and Adams: England and the United States, 1812-1823 & The Negotiations at Ghent https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/1832365.pdf).

“the British were forced to respect the United States on impressing American citizens” This is why both the US President and American ambassador to the Court of St James was fretting over the matter in 1815 to the British Foreign Secretary? At least try to be a good faith actor and understand this. Between 1815 and the next major European war involving a British blockade (1914) the British found alternative methods of crewing the RN. But blockade measures remained and this was again a source of friction with the neutral United States. These measures were key to British warfare and therefore Britain’s safety. The idea she allowed the US to lecture her over them in 1814 – or that the US “scared” her out of the key facets of her maritime strategy after the fact – just isn’t true.

“The vote to annex the Canadas never passed” Why was the cession of part, if not all of Canada, contained in Monroe’s initial instructions to American negotiators before Ghent?

Canada was safe in 1814. The American offensives into it had utterly failed, and by that time it was sufficiently reinforced with British troops from Europe. Milne’s comments don’t contradict that. They are a reflection on the reality to all British strategists that the far more populated USA had a decided advantage in any ground war over British North America (one she failed to press in 1812-1815). Edward Brenton RN later pointed out in his naval history of the period that the key to protecting Canada was naval supremacy of the type wielded in 1812-1815 - Milne was following this line.

“The British forfeited “Uti possidetis”…” ..and this also had a great deal to do with Britain’s preoccupations in Europe and the fact it wasn’t a sine qua non, as much as American success at Plattsburgh. I know Wellington’s letter, as I know the tendency of partisan players to selectively quote it- almost always ignoring the passages referring to Britain’s “undoubted superiority” in the ground war; everything from Queenston Heights to Lundy’s Lane, control of Lakes Huron and Ontario by war’s end, which is why Canada was safe. Control of Lake Erie, indeed Harrison’s splendid campaign of 1813 served to retake much territory lost in 1812 (although not all by a long chalk). It did nothing to really further the main war against Canada in any significant way.

“You’ve misinterpreted my initial response to discuss the fact that the British had . . . more ships in the ocean? Thanks, I am aware. I said the British embarrassed themselves in the early half”

You said the Royal Navy “failed” in the first half of the war based purely on some single ship actions. Indicative of someone engrossed in a nationalist retelling of the war (that’s the power of books such as Six Frigates). It did not. The RN’s American squadron’s main task in 1812, before Warren’s squadron was strong enough to see a blockade implemented, was ensuring the conveyance of commerce and troops from the West Indies and Canada to Britain and back. This she did. The USN signally failed to attack British trade. Again, winning some single ship actions did not change the overall strategic picture at sea. The fact the British had more ships became material to the US in 1813 when a proper blockade was instituted. The RN’s numerical might decided the war at sea. It is rank stupidity to suggest because the USS Constitution (a ship that spent much time trapped in port) fled a British squadron in 1815 the British weren’t really dominant here.

To infer the war was a failure you’ve quoted two British newspapers; The Dublin Evening Post, an anti-government, reformist newspaper established by radical & serial libeller John Magee (the government in 1815 was Tory) and The Edinburgh Review. Also pro-Whig. This is a deliberately selective sample. You may as well claim Cobbett’s Political Register as representative, or only use Federalist Newspapers to portray contemporary American reactions to the peace.

Fortunately, I’ve got independent research on this matter from years ago:

The Morning Post recorded reactions from publications across the country, reporting how the Staffordshire Advertiser regarded the terms as ‘honourable to our country’. In Lewes peace was welcomed with ‘lively expressions of joy’, the Exeter Gazette recorded the ringing of church bells, and the Nottingham Journal related how the peace had not only proven ‘more auspicious and desirable to the manufacturing interests of this place’ than any event in recent memory-but had ‘gladdened all hearts’ in that ‘populous district’. [‘THE PEACE WITH AMERICA’, Morning Post, 4th January 1815]

‘The hand that had plucked down the French Eagles in their flight, now set fire to the American capitol in the metropolis of the United States. Terror and submission followed the appearance of our expeditions; and though partial misfortunes on the Canadian Lakes, threw a slight shade over the splendour of our triumphs, yet the apprehensions and unpopularity of the PRESIDENT and Executive led them at last to think seriously of peace’ . [‘London, January 02, 1815’, Morning Post, 2nd January 1815]

The Leeds Intelligencer was similarly glowing: 'The Americans are understood to have waived any stipulation on the subject of maritime rights...and what has America gained by this war? Nothing. What has she lost? Ask the merchant, ask the farmer' [‘Peace with America’, Leeds Intelligencer, 2nd January 1815, p. 2]

And the typically muted Examiner thought it sufficient to cast doubt on unduly negative analysis from the hawkish press represented by The Times [‘Untitled’, Examiner, 1st January 1815, pp. 6-7]

These resources can be searched and found via BRITISH LIBRARY NEWSPAPERS at https://galeapps.gale.com/apps/auth?userGroupName=&origURL=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.gale.com%2Fps%2Fstart.do%3Fp%3DBNCN%26u%3D&prodId=BNCN

“Hickey's opinion is that the Americans lost the war but the British lost the peace”

Is it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk_tkpX2TeU&t=3097s at 50:23. He makes no case for the British “losing the peace” here or in Forgotten Conflict. America “won the peace” in terms of creating a unified identity around the experience of the war- not by winning concessions, real or imagined, from Britain at or after Ghent. How did Britain "lose the peace" on that basis?

It is always those eager to make accusations of bias who are themselves the worst culprits. Did I ever deny the Americans “credit” for Plattsburgh and its influence on negotiations, the defeat of Tecumseh or the initial successes in single ship actions? No. I only advanced the evidence that collectively these did not make the war against Britain a success. I think the spirit of your comments is why this article will forever remain a half-baked mess. F.M. Sir D.H (talk) 11:25, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

:: “Does this also mean the war was a success against the British, in pursuit of the core reasons it was originally declared? No. Contemporary Federalists were particularly fierce in making the latter point.”

The Federalists were the fiercest critics and in total opposition to the war effort. This reached the point of smuggling through Maine (as you may be aware of) and possible secession. The irony in this war is that the successful defenses did unite the United States. You’ve created an oddly specific set of parameters to your question, but when a country gains a great deal out of this outcome and it’s war aims are met (directly or indirectly) – that is quite arguably a victory. The reasons were related to maritime trade and impressment. Both war aims ended with Napoleon’s defeat; this result eventually benefited the United States. The outcome of winner and loser is not clear in this conflict. There was no changing the Orders in Council, but the United States was able to make the British re-consider it’s use on them. Daughan has mentioned related to the British concessions (pg.415), “Castlereagh was alive to the danger, and he moved quickly to prevent neutral trade and impressment from reemerging to disrupt his rapprochement with the United States.”

:: “As for Lambert and Arthur, you haven’t dealt with their arguments”

Utter nonsense. I've previously bought up the issue of Lambert's lie related to slave compensation.

Lambert states in the YouTube video, "Blacks In The War of 1812" at (03:41), "At the end of the war, the United States government asked to be compensated because these are property. And the British don't pay. They don't give the slaves back, they don't pay up. They’re already moving towards the abolition of slavery and they’re not interested in the property rights of American planters."

Here’s the problem: The British paid for compensation of the lost slaves; Lambert’s retelling is a misleading fabrication or (at best) a half-truth.

Arthur claims the United States couldn't commit to the war effort, but the U.S. planned construction of ships proceeded onward until the Treaty of Ghent was signed. The economic affects that he's claimed would "end the war effort" only ended when both countries agreed to sign the glorified ceasefire. I mentioned this in an earlier archive, but J.C.A. Stagg who summarized this with the following quote in an interview: "In terms of military outcomes, “stalemate from mutual exhaustion” is the phrase to use. By 1815 it became extremely difficult to see how either side could have carried on the war for another year. In that sense nobody won." https://www.historynet.com/interview-with-war-of-1812-historian-j-c-a-stagg.htm Stagg noted that it was difficult for both sides to continue war. That being said, it’s just hypothetical on how it could have turned out pending if the war just played out and negotiations failed. The reality (and history) is that none of it played out and the outcome of the war benefited the United States in the long run.

:: “The British interfered with no foreign trade, and impressed no sailors from foreign ships whatsoever during the Hundred Days (American or otherwise) because they weren’t blockading Europe. Not because they were scared of “resuming a war” with a country they’d just … A. Coerced into a diplomatic climb-down over those very same issues. B. Who wasn’t in any position to prosecute further hostilities against Britain”

My entire point was that impressment ended and that's what the United States wanted. You're fixated on coercion to achieve a war aim, but the British were still cautious of waging another war. The British dropped their own territorial demands and even planned for a separate treaty related to the Louisiana Purchase. The latter (planned) treaty was abandoned when the British failed at New Orleans. As for prosecuting further hostilities, the United States went straight after the Colonial Marines and Red Stick Creeks once the Treaty of Ghent was signed and ratified. The Red Stick Creeks were even under the impression they were defended from potential invasion (Treaty of Nicholls' Outpost) and this invasion led into the Seminole Wars. The United States seemed willing enough to prosecute further hostilities against the British allies in the south, west, and (later) the British themselves. Andrew Jackson infamously hanged two British citizens in the "Arbuthnot and Ambrister incident" in 1818 in the midst of the First Seminole War. It's clear to me that the Treaty of Ghent was a glorified ceasefire and Florida was the more desired territory.

:: “The idea she allowed the US to lecture her over them in 1814 –“

You've created another straw man fallacy. I never claimed Madison (or other officials) lectured the British. It was a dead issue when the British stopped impressing American citizens.

:: “or that the US “scared” her out of the key facets of her maritime strategy after the fact – just isn’t true.”

You're creating hyperbole to make that argument, but as Daughan noted (pg.415), "Instead of a callous disregard of American rights on the high seas, there came a sensitivity from London that avoided conflict.” Both sides were cautious of engaging in another full-scale war, but the United States was a growing economic and military power and if impressment resumed, then war would have likely resumed. Jackson didn't even care about British nationality during the Seminole Wars . . . It's hypothetical and (at that point) alternative history if the British attempted to impress (on accident) Americans again. The hard evidence is that it never resumed. That was the public perception and the British government never pushed to change that perception.

:: “The American offensives into it had utterly failed, and by that time it was sufficiently reinforced with British troops from Europe.”

The Canadas were not "safe" until the Treaty of Ghent was signed and ratified. As for the demand of part (or all) of the Canadas? America – even with the idea that they could have a successful offensive into the Canadas in mid-1812 – could not agree on what to do with the Canadas if they were successful. The Democratic Republicans only offered it as a bargaining chip to the Federalist party. The Federalists didn't accept this proposal; the idea that the land could just be handed back to the British upon a successful invasion soured them on the idea. The annexation of the Canadas never passed and the Federalists benefited more with trade with the British than taking over. As for the Democratic-Republications, even being a majority, there were issues concerning the Canadas becoming a swing state for the Federalists (if annexed) and French Catholics who were deemed undesirables of American citizenship.

:: “I know the tendency of partisan players to selectively quote it- almost always ignoring the passages referring to Britain’s “undoubted superiority” in the ground war.”

It’s “partisan players” when it is someone you don’t agree with. You put emphasis on “undoubted superiority,” but that certainly didn’t reflect the battles in Baltimore or New Orleans - or even Dudley's Raid!

“It is rank stupidity to suggest because the USS Constitution (a ship that spent much time trapped in port) fled a British squadron in 1815 the British weren’t really dominant here.”

And if the British offensive was as strong as you claim, they should have burned the Constitution when it was trapped in port. The fact that there was still resistance on the seas against a much larger power in 1815 is conveniently forgotten about. The British lost more naval battles than they ever should have for a global power.

:: “The British deliberately refused to discuss the issues of impressment, irregular blockade or compensation for seizure of vessels under the Orders in Council from the outset of negotiations in 1814.”

The fact is that the British physically stopped impressing the Americans. You can justify with the end of Napoleon's reign and the refusal of the British to discuss the matter, but at the end of the day, they were no longer doing a practice that the American public felt threatened by.

::“This is a deliberately selective sample. You may as well claim Cobbett’s Political Register as representative, or only use Federalist Newspapers to portray contemporary American reactions to the peace.”

You've cited from the Federalist-perspective when it is convenient for you, but now raise issue when the opposing political party raises their own opinion against the residing parties' narrative? It’s hypocritical to say the least.

:: “It is always those eager to make accusations of bias who are themselves the worst culprits.”

It's good to see that you're addressing the points of Erie and Plattsburgh, both of which you downplayed before in your earlier response. Unfortunately you claim "lies" from historians whom you disagree with. It is hypocritical when you're clearly upset with my stance on Lambert and Arthur . . . And you've avoided other topics such as New Orleans and the lecture I linked by Walter McDougall.

And it took some time but I was able to find some of my old notes related to the (now private) video that I linked earlier, but I have them now. The slideshow from Hickey notes on the screen had the words, “Outcome: Debatable” on the War of 1812. And here is a transcript of the lecture that I typed up from Hickey: “The outcome of this war is debatable, conventional wisdom is that it ended in a draw because that was the way the battlefields looked at the end of the war. There were no major conquest by either side during the war. We certainly didn’t conqueror Canada and although the British occupied certain portions of the United States, they were mostly on the periphery. And the Treaty of Ghent which ended the war appeared to ratify that by providing for the status quo ante bellum, which simply means the two nations restored any territory they held – that had belonged to the other and the war in that sense ended in a draw. There are scholars however who’ve argued that because in a broad sense we vindicated American sovereignty and got better treatment from the British and more respect from the great powers of Europe thereafter that we really did win the war. My own position is that we lost it because the Orders in Council and Impressment were not even mentioned in the peace treaty and no one thought and this was going to be the last Anglo-American War and no one thought this is going to be the last war between France and Great Britain and therefore it was just a matter of time before the British resumed the practices that caused this war.” Hickey acknowledged that he is among the minority that the “United States lost the war,” but he did write that the United States “won the peace” and he stressed that it was vital to keep the republic happy in spite of their own (British) interests and was the principle strategy to defend the Canadas. You’ll have to forgive me, but I erred when I recollected it as “British lost the peace” due to the willingness to sacrifice their own interests.

It is clear the British government had some opportunist intent in mind. The British wouldn't have asked for the Indian buffer state, created New Ireland, or questioned the legality of the Louisiana Purchase if they didn't have some offensive intents in mind. The result of 1812? The British failed to harshly punish the United States and lost all of their allies in the process; many of whom suffered loss of land or prestige. Major-Generals were lost (which affected battle strategy) and the Duke of Wellington even lost his brother-in-law. Cochrane's reputation (among others) was soiled from this conflict. Alan Taylor notes, "The Americans forced the British to choose between alliance with the Indians and peace with the republic. By choosing peace, the British accepted the Americans’ continental power.” Ironic Luck (talk) 15:03, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

"..but when a country gains a great deal out of this outcome and it’s war aims are met (directly or indirectly) – that is quite arguably a victory...Both war aims ended with Napoleon’s defeat"

In the case of maritime belligerent rights the demands of American negotiators were not met, directly or indirectly. Considering impressment ended with the termination of the French Empire, the US may as well have never declared war over the issue, and simply waited for European peace instead. The end of the Napoleonic Wars did not render Britain's future right to impressment any less important in another future conflict- and the American's abandonment of their demands left them vulnerable post-Ghent. This is why American diplomats approached the British informally and formally to try and reach an agreement on impressment in the years following the Treaty of Ghent, and the British (jealously guarding the cornerstones of their maritime strategy) rebuffed them. The climb down over maritime rights cannot be construed as some sort of success save by mental gymnastics.

"(pg.415), “Castlereagh was alive to the danger, and he moved quickly to prevent neutral trade and impressment from reemerging to disrupt his rapprochement with the United States.”"

What does Daughan claim Castlereagh actually did to "prevent neutral trade and impressment" from disrupting an Anglo-American reapproachment? He did not allow stipulations on the subject during the Rush-Bagot negotiations or the Treaty of 1818 negotiations. Richard Rush thought Castlereagh might be willing to negotiate some kind of agreement on impressment in 1818, but Castlereagh left for a conference at Aix-Chapelle and handed responsibility to Lord Bathurst, who promptly sank any possibility of this whatsoever. Clearly, satisfying American unresolved concerns over impressment after the War of 1812 was not a priority for Castlereagh, & not even a possibility for Bathurst. The US government instead considered reviving measures on their own side, if another European war started, to accommodate Britain (not vice-versa) such as the exclusion of non-native sailors from the American merchant marine. (Castlereagh by John Bew, and Castlereagh and Adams by Bradford Perkins)

"It's hypothetical and (at that point) alternative history if the British attempted to impress (on accident) Americans again. The hard evidence is that it never resumed"

The hard evidence is that American negotiators had to abandon their demands over the issue at Ghent when the war effort awarded them no bargaining chips, and after 1814 tried and failed for years to get an agreement on the matter from Britain, while making provision to avoid falling foul of British impressment laws if another major war in Europe resumed. No sailors were impressed on the high seas because there wasn't another major war in Europe. Your implication that the British were so concerned about fighting America they didn't impress anyone (aside from ignoring the reasons for impressment in the first place), is a clear allusion to the idea that Britain was scared to protect her maritime belligerent rights regime from a country she had just militarily contained and put in financial disarray. The actual diplomatic history after 1814 says otherwise.

"Arthur claims the United States couldn't commit to the war effort" Arthur argues that the blockade ruined American finances to the point that the United States' credit was shot meaning she could not obtain loans to continue the war (e.g from the Netherlands), and critical sources of government revenue (customs duties- at this time a major form of direct governmental income- and shrinking tax revenues from industries crippled by the blockade) made the continuation of the war unfeasible. As recognised by the US government. It was difficult and unpopular (in terms of wartime taxes from the British point of view) for both sides to continue fighting, but the British had the cash and credit to do so if necessary while the Americans did not. This is why the Americans were on the defensive during negotiations, commenced talks by dropping their demands over maritime issues and keener to terminate hostilities than the British. E.g During the war, the US spent $86.7 million on the war while only collecting $35.1 million in taxes. A shortfall of $51.6 million. "Comparison of the British government's unimpaired ability to borrow with their own inability to raise any appreciable loans at home or in Europe had renewed the American Peace Commissioner's search for a negotiated settlement" pp.206-207. The war on land had petering out may support Stagg's contention of "mutual exhaustion" (or rather the inherent problems of reducing a country as large and sparsely populated as America while still busy in Europe). But, the blockade and amphibious operations had not, and this was the main weapon in Britain's arsenal.

"My entire point was that impressment ended and that's what the United States wanted. You're fixated on coercion to achieve a war aim...but at the end of the day, they were no longer doing a practice that the American public felt threatened by."

...and the termination of impressment had nothing to do with the demands made by the US, which Britain forced the US to abandon. If the US hadn't declared war, impressment would've still ended in 1814 anyway. The US did not "achieve" anything by coercion or otherwise over maritime belligerent rights. To claim the US "got what it wanted" or suggest the war indirectly successful is simply fallacious.

"The United States seemed willing enough to prosecute further hostilities against the British allies in the south, west, and (later) the British themselves. Andrew Jackson infamously hanged two British citizens"

I sincerely hope you aren't trying to imply the murder of two British subjects by Andrew Jackson after the war was over suggests the US was in a position to actually fight Britain again.

"At the end of the war, the United States government asked to be compensated because these are property. And the British don't pay. They don't give the slaves back, they don't pay up. ......Well, "at the end of the war" (if that's a refence to negotiations at Ghent), the British rejected American requests to return escaped slaves and they didn't pay compensation. It was 8 years later in 1822, after a separate arbitration carried out by the Tsar, that restitution was paid. While a victory for American slaveholders, the Tsar essentially sided with the British interpretation of who was eligible for compensation (James Oakes, The Scorpion's Sting ,pp.141-142). This seems exceptionally thin ground for rubbishing the whole works of Professor Andrew Lambert.

"The Canadas were not "safe" until the Treaty of Ghent was signed and ratified"

There were over 30,000 British soldiers in Canada by December 1814. The last major American offensive was turned back at Lundy's Lane. If you cannot accept that the war against British North America was a qualified failure, then what's the point? Canada was a means to an end for the administration. The most direct way of attacking Britain and to use, if conquered, as a bargaining chip in exchange for British concessions elsewhere. However, American thinking on this was clearly fluid. As well as Monroe's initial instructions in 1814, American negotiators allowed themselves to dream of conquest - albeit temporarily- in the aftermath of William Henry Harrison's successful campaign in Spring of 1813. Before more failures over the next year, it was considered "worth while" to suggest the transfer of "the upper part and even the whole of Canada to the United States" (Monroe to Gallatin, Adams and Bayard, June 23 1813)

"And if the British offensive was as strong as you claim, they should have burned the Constitution when it was trapped in port"

This is about as foolish as claiming the British didn't really dominate the French at sea during the Napoleonic Wars, because they "only" kept the French fleet trapped in Brest for nearly the whole war rather, than going in and burning it. Total non-argument.

You've cited from the Federalist-perspective when it is convenient for you

I said the Federalists seized the opportunity to critique the Madison Government over its failure to win concessions on impressment. I didn't, for instance, selectively quote two Federalist newspapers and imply this was indicative of America's general reaction to the peace.

It's good to see that you're addressing the points of Erie and Plattsburgh, both of which you downplayed before in your earlier response

I never downplayed either. Erie was part of the successful 1813 campaign in the Old Northwest which helped the Americans recover much of their losses in the 1812 campaign, and I've already addressed Plattsburgh's role in helping convince London to abandon Uti Possidetis but qualified it with the proviso that, as well as not being a key British war aim (it only emerged in late 1814 after America conceded over impressment),..."The British government's priorities in Europe, at Vienna, were just as significant as American military success at Plattsburgh in making a Uti Possidetis peace impossible"...which likely elicited your displeasure. Here's your favourite historian Brian Arthur on the topic:

"Despite the British occupation of parts of Northern Maine in September 1814, news of American successes reaching London in October had caused British Peace Commissioners to relinquish earlier territorial claims. The status quo ante bellum was to be resumed. This reflected the abandoned British attempt to invade the United States from Canada, unrealistic without naval control of the lakes, although costing the hoped-for overland route between Halifax and Quebec. British concern over disagreements between the victorious Allies meeting at Vienna, and the real possibility of renewed fighting in Europe, with the implied need for heavy taxation and borrowing in Britain, had moderated attitudes on anything less vital than the retention of British maritime rights" (How Britain won the War of 1812), p.207

Unfortunately you claim "lies" from historians whom you disagree with

I have never claimed the historians you've cited are lying. This is a stunning lack of self-awareness and indicative of why (between this baseless accusation & mental gymnastics over impressment and the war against Canada) the discussion is essentially pointless. I hope other editors might find the sources useful. F.M. Sir D.H (talk) 23:46, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

References

Pot, meet kettle, Moxy.

The Canadian (and perhaps the Commonwealth) popular perception is slanted. The last time I saw you was in Archive 26 and you refrained from further commentary when asked for clarification from Tirronan and David Kinge. You’ve previously cited from Jim Guy, a professor of political science (not a historian) and based your opinion on his column in a Cape Brenton piece which failed to meet reliable research.

I can personally cite from more authors than what I’ve listed on Wikipedia, plus I can cite from online lectures that question the “British victory” myth. There was too much internal conflict within the United States to ever annex the Canadas. Hickey was right when he said that this was the most divisive war in the United States history and begrudgingly admitted (in a lecture a few years ago) that his argument can be flipped on it’s head for an American victory. He doesn’t agree with the “American victory” perspective, but he acknowledges that other historians have this viewpoint.

You’ve demonstrated hypocritical behavior; present reliable sources and I’ll continue to do the same. Thanks. Ironic Luck (talk) 14:26, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

It's too bad or academic editors have given up on the article [4]. Its also to bad Hickey did not have access to Canadian and British publications in the late 80s [5].Moxy- 20:04, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Hickey is only one example, Moxy. The British sources still wave the Union Jack. David Mills's book is a good read when dealing with the Canadian perspective; many modern myths are still promoted by Canadian jingoism. Ironic Luck (talk)

• Comment The OP has essentially made a drive-by comment but not otherwise contributed to the discussion. Wiki articles should be written in a way that is detached from the subject (at arms-length) and which does not appear to be partisan in a Wiki voice. Partisan views should be attributed and given due weight. Where this might be better done has not been evidenced, so there is little to glean from the OP. The discussion has then digressed to a question of the result in the infobox. It is quite clear from the article and the sources taken as a whole, there was no conclusive result - everybody got a bloody nose but made their point. There is no consensus in sources by which one might reasonably assert one side was conclusively the victor. The result was inconclusive. The body of the article quite clearly supports this. The present result of "inconclusive" is quite appropriate. If there is a substantial change in the consensus of sources, the body of the article should be changed to reflect this. Only then, would it be appropriate to revisit the question of the result parameter. Since this discussion is focussed on the parameter and not the body of the article, I don't see that it is going anywhere productive. Cinderella157 (talk) 03:23, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

  This, understandably, has been hashed out for many years, with extensive citations on all sides, to reach the current inconclusive/status quo ante bellum result in the InfoBox. See for example (as the head of this page once suggested), /Archive 8, /Archive 9, /Who Won?, Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2009-11-11/War of 1812 and /Archive 14 —— Shakescene (talk) 18:51, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

If anyone's interested, there is a book called The Idea of Loyalty in Upper Canada, 1784-1850 (David MIlls, McGill-Queen's University Press 1988) that explains how the provincial government interpreted the war as a victory by loyal militia. The main target of the idea was the new emigrants who had served in the Napoleonic wars and settled in Upper Canada. While it had a unifying effect, it relied on a distortion of actual history. OTOH, even though school history books long abandoned this view, it remains part of popular folklore. TFD (talk) 19:01, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Misleading opening sentence

The article opens with: "was fought by the United States of America and its indigenous allies against the United Kingdom and its allies in British North America" The Allies of the US are clearly marked as "Indigenous", but the allies of the UK are not. Yet, when we look at the total soldiering count in the information box below, it lists "125 Indigenous + Unknown additional" vs "10-15,000 Indigenous" as part of the six nations and the Tecumseh confederacy. Considering the indigenous allies on the UK side outnumbered the US ind. allies by a factor of perhaps 100x, it seems *very* misleading to open the article with this. 90.247.227.132 (talk) 01:21, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 June 2023

The war happend in 1812 184.145.104.189 (talk) 20:48, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Does it specify otherwise somewhere? Tollens (talk) 21:04, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 July 2023

The "Indigenous nations" sub-section of the "Long-term consequences" section of this page includes the following sentence: "Everyone, including British fur traders were prohibited from entering in the United States for purposes of trade.". This sentence is cited to page 26 of the chapter "American Indians and US-Canada Transborder Migration" by Roger L. Nichols, in Permeable Borders: History, Theory, Policy, and Practice in the United States (ed. Paul Otto and Susanne Berthier-Foglar). The cited page can be viewed for free at this link (https://books.google.ca/books?id=XPvDDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA26&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false).

This sentence should be deleted because page 26 of the cited source does not support it, as you will see if you check the page using the above link. Page 26 of the cited source doesn't mention any prohibition or restriction of entry into the US. I'm astonished that someone is lying about this source to make such an obviously wrong statement. Anonymoususer95 (talk) 12:56, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

In progress: An editor is implementing the requested edit. Xan747 (talk) 18:34, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

@Anonymoususer95: What I believe to be the relevant passage on p. 26 says:

During the decade after the War of 1812, the tribes in the upper Mississippi Valley experienced a catastrophic decline in the fur trade. Overhunting and competition for pelts among the area tribes nearly exterminated many species. That, coupled with American insistence that the Indians stop dealing with Canadian traders, brought real hardship to many villages. My emphasis. So clearly there was a blanket restriction against trade between Native Americans and British Canadians on US soil, which I deem significant and worthy of inclusion. I'll let you write up the replacement text. I'm going to set the answered flag to yes on the edit request; ping me when you've finished drafting the edit. Xan747 (talk) 17:02, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 July 2023 (2)

The "Indigenous nations" sub-section of the "Long-term consequences" section of this page includes the following sentence: "After much confrontation between settlers and tribes, and failed attempts to assimilate Indians to a life of farming and ranching, they were ultimately sent to various reservations." This sentence is cited to three sources:

• Pages 241 - 242 of The Potawatomi: Keepers of the Fire by R. David Edmunds (which you can borrow for free here: https://archive.org/details/potawatomiskeepe00edmu/page/240/mode/2up
• Pages 173 - 183 of The Shawnee Prophet by R. David Edmunds (which you can borrow for free here:https://archive.org/details/shawneeprophet0000edmu/page/36/mode/2up)
• Pages 25 - 54 of "The View from Piqua Agency: The War of 1812, the White River Delawares, and the Origins of Indian Removal" by Karim M. Tiro (https://www.jstor.org/stable/24486843).

The clause referring to "failed attempts to assimilate Indians to a life of farming and ranching" should be deleted, for two reasons. First, the Indians forced onto reservations in the aftermath of the War of 1812 were already farmers and had been for millennia, since well before the arrival of Europeans. Anyone with the slightest familiarity with the period would know this.

Second, the cited sources do not support this clause, as you will see if you check the above links.

"The View From Piqua Agency" does not use the words "farming", "ranching", or "assimilation", or any derivation of these words.

The cited pages of The Shawnee Prophet directly contradict this clause. On page 181, it discusses the Shawnee's need to plant their crops on their new reservation (i.e. "farming"). On page 183, it discusses them "grazing their horses" (i.e. "ranching"). See also page 37, where Edmunds notes that the traditional Shawnee lifestyle prior to European influence included the cultivation of corn and beans.

The cited pages of The Potawatomi also directly contradict this clause. On page 241, a quoted primary source notes that the Potawatomi rejected pressure to assimilate after the War of 1812 in favour of their traditional lifestyle, which included "plant[ing] patches of corn" (i.e. farming).

The historian Robert M. Owens once noted that Americans at the time of the War of 1812 "steadfastly ignored Indian women's farming, which provided the vast bulk of food for most Indians east of the Mississippi. Yet Indian cornfields and grain stores were and had been primary targets when the United States fought the tribes. In part this may be explained by a desire to see the Indians as primitive, wandering hunters, who possessed far more land than they could really use, which in turn served to help rationalize Americans' taking such land for agriculture": see page 405, note 1, "Jeffersonian Benevolence on the Ground: The Indian Land Cession Treaties of William Henry Harrison", Journal of the Early Republic, vol. 22, no. 3. Whoever lied about the content of these sources was probably trying the same thing. Anonymoususer95 (talk) 13:34, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

In progress: An editor is implementing the requested edit. Xan747 (talk) 22:51, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

@Anonymoususer95: The sentence would more properly read, "... to a life of Euro-American-style farming and ranching ...", but that over-generalizes and glosses over any number of other factors, not least of which was pure and simple racism and bigotry on the part of the white settlers for whom no amount of forced or voluntary acculturation on the part of the indigenous nations would have satisfied.

However, these factors had been present before the war--they were not a unique outcome of it. I think one thing this whole section misses is how Jackson's performance during the war enabled his eventual rise to the presidency and thence the Indian Removal Act of 1830.

I have temporarily removed the whole paragraph. If you have thoughts about what could be written in its place feel free to suggest them for me to incorporate.

Courtesy ping @Rjensen, who has made significant contributions to this article. Xan747 (talk) 22:50, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Keep the paragraph. Historians emphasize that Jackson's success against the Indians played a major role in the history of the war of 1812. Jackson defeated tribes that were military allies of Brits, and fought against the USA in the war of 1812. The tribes affected in 1830 were a different issue entirely: those tribes supported USA in 1812 but rejected the authority of state government. The solution was to move them out of the states into their own territory. Individual Indians in 1830 who accepted state government were not removed. Rjensen (talk) 00:46, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. I self-reverted my edit for now but will come back to it since I think there's room for improvement. Xan747 (talk) 03:06, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure that justifies keeping the paragraph. I still think that "failed attempts to assimilate Indians to a life of farming and ranching" ignores that the Indians were already farmers. Even the Choctaw and Cherokee, who adopted Euro-American agricultural techniques, were displaced in the 1830s.

I would also note that the tribe that Jackson fought during the War of 1812 (namely, the Creek) were expelled west of the Mississippi in 1834.

Anonymoususer95 (talk) 13:52, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

I changed the first sentence to: After much confrontation between settlers and tribes, and resistance of some tribes to assimilate into Euro-American culture, they were ultimately sent to various reservations. in this diff and left the rest. Xan747 (talk) 21:08, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 July 2023

Update link to War of 1812 Archives of Ontario exhibit webpage to the following: http://www.archives.gov.on.ca/en/explore/online/1812/index.aspx JoelDickau (talk) 20:34, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: I'm hesitant to point to an unsecure link when it's possible the site has simply let its certificate expire ... and when the wayback machine link still works. Xan747 (talk) 21:15, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 July 2023

"Between 1804 and 1807, 731 American ships were seized by Britain or France for violation of one of the blockades, roughly two thirds by Britain.[citation needed] "

for 731 ships please add: https://www.google.com/books/edition/In_Nelson_s_Wake/KkEFCwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA255&printsec=frontcover

It says near the bottom of page 255: "By 1807, 731 American merchant ships had been seized by the two warring nations, roughly two-thirds by Britain and the remainder by France."

Thanks ^.^ 2603:8080:2C00:E3D2:7510:FED7:7FE8:75CE (talk) 05:29, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

 Not done Per WP:SWYRT. The Davey source provided by the requesting IP editor does confirm the claim, however, Davey cites this information on page 255 to another source (footnote #5). Due to limitations on pages offered by Google Books, this source could not be determined.  Spintendo  10:20, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Hello there. I no longer edit on Wikipedia but I do occasionally stop by to see what is happening. Dr. James Davey's statement on page 255 in his book In Nelson's Wake: How The Royal Navy Ruled The Waves Trafalgar lists the source as The Challenge: Britain Against America in the War of 1812 by Professor Andrew Lambert. Professor Lambert is Laughton Professor of Naval History in the Department of War Studies at King's College. The reference is on page 26. You can check it out. Dwalrus (talk) 02:24, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Impressment, trade, and naval actions

The way this section is borderline POV in relation to speaking of impressment. The whole angle & tone is that the UK took particular care in not impressing American sailors, and the sources don't really say that and if they did it strikes me as POV. Impressment was very clearly explained earlier for two mains purposes: to stop French trade with its colonies, and two, the broaden the pool of eligible sailors for its navy. In fact, the UK clearly saw itself as master of the sea in the way it applied its laws anywhere it operated on the sea regardless of conflict with laws and rules of other countries. I'd say at least paragraph 10 in that subsection is POV, but the entire substation under the guise of adding context feels like it's making excuses for the impressments. Criticalthinker (talk) 07:11, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

It's generally accepted that nations have the right to draft their own citizens. It's also inevitable that in some cases errors will be made. TFD (talk) 13:04, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

War of 1812

new Orleans 193.69.39.32 (talk) 17:54, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

? Shearonink (talk) 19:59, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Impressment

“ The issue of impressment also became irrelevant as the Royal Navy no longer needed sailors after the war.”

This is not at all explained and on the surface seems nonsensical. Can someone expand it please? 2A02:C7C:5690:A000:6864:AAD8:DFD3:3301 (talk) 07:16, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

replace "indian" with "indigenous"

in several parts of the artical, it says that indians are fighting in the war, and i think that if it is indeed people from india who are fighting, then add india to the list of nations in the war, but if that is not true then update it to "indigenous", "native americans", or something like that to reduce misconceptions (perhaps instead just specify where they were from?) - some bored kid at school (tell me about stuff here) 19:45, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

"Add India to the nations" good one lol 2001:569:BEB5:AB00:FC81:463C:EE39:4D81 (talk) 05:33, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

It's been discussed, many many times before. Have a read of this discussion for a bit of background. This is just ONE of many discussions - for more do a search through the archives. Deathlibrarian (talk) 11:33, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Algiers

Hello Cinderella157, would it be preferable if i mentionned the implication of Algiers in this war in the body before adding it to the infobox ? Best. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:48, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE, it is to summarise key facts of the article. So, yes. Otherwise, we are left wondering, why is Algiers there? Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 10:57, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the recent addition

The British would also ask Algiers, the most powerful of the Ottoman affiliated Barbary states, to attack U.S. ships. The regency declared war on the U.S., capturing American merchant ships and enslaving their crews.

This seems WP:FRINGE and I would dispute that Algiers should be recorded as a combatant. Is there any support from reliable sources regarding Algiers having a tangible impact upon the war? Why were they not participants in the peace negotiations at Ghent? Keith H99 (talk) 11:42, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Algerian declaration of war in 1812, is a direct reason for the second barbary war. Algiers being the strongest of the barbary states is the reason why Britain asked it to join the war against the U.S., since Algiers imposed at that time tribute on the U.S. shipping in the mediterranean. This is supported by multiple sources and doesn't have to be necessarly nationalist in nature. Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:44, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

The sources i provided seem reliable to me , here's another one [6] Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:46, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Two of the most well known American sources on the Regency of Algiers: Wolf [7] p. 313 and Spencer [8] p. 139-140. I would suggest adding to the aftermath of this war some informations about the motives for the second barbary war (Algerian attacks on U.S. shipping, stronger U.S. navy and Congress declaration of war on March 2, 1815. Nourerrahmane (talk) 13:12, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

If I was going to put across an argument about the Second World War, I would not be quoting from books about the First Indochina War. These sources pertain to Algiers. I would expect there to be mention from a reliable source about the War of 1812, in particular the naval aspect, such as the writings of Roosevelt, Toll, Daughan or similar.

Aforementioned Sources:

Barnes, Gregory Fremont (2006) The wars of the Barbary pirates

Wolf, John B (1979) The Barbary coast: Algiers under the Turks 1500 to 1830

Spencer, William (1922) Algiers in the age of the corsairs

I remain of the opinion that the concept that the Algerian corsairs were a partner of the British, in the War of 1812, to be a fringe idea. I do not think this will be accepted as something to remain in the article. Keith H99 (talk) 13:55, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

I get your point, and honestly that's how i used to work on the article of the Regency, by stating refs that deal directly with the subject matter. In this case you're free to remove what I added unless i find Algerian participation in RS that deals with the War of 1812. Thanks. Nourerrahmane (talk) 14:05, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

The impact of the Barbary states had an impact upon the fledgling US Navy and its Corps of Marines, for sure. I don't see this occurring during the War of 1812, though.

The British would also ask Algiers, the most powerful of the Ottoman affiliated Barbary states

Regarding the above (1) the present conditional of 'would also' to be removed, and in principle replaced with 'had asked'. (2) Although that corrected the grammar, the content of page 41 does not document a request from the British to declare war. It was an unhappy coincidence for Madison that an Algerian declaration of war (on an as-yet undetermined date) occurred when war against the British commenced in 1812. It is interesting that any American shipping in the mediterranean were vulnerable to attack, as mentioned on page 170. It becomes clear that these subsequent attacks would lead to the second war in 1815. (The reservation I would have with the book by Brendan January as a reliable source is that it does not contain inline citations, so it is hard to determine the evidence behind his comments.)

The talk page is useful, for the debates that arise. This article has been in existence for over 20 years. I have not come across a concept of Algerian participation in my reading about the War of 1812. I think others will have opinions on whether this is a fringe idea, or whether it can remain.

Thank you for having been polite and clear in your communications on this topic, especially given that I gather that english is not your mother tongue. Keith H99 (talk) 14:38, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm looking through these, and I also fail to see a direct reference in these sources to where the British asked the Algerians to attack American shipping. I've also done some extra searching, and I can't see any other references to it - could be there (its not an area I know much about) but I can't see them. There are certainly attacks going on against US shipping at the same time, but nothing I can see to indicate the Brits asked them to. I note that the wiki article on the second Barbary wars discusses contact between the British King and the leader of Algiers, but does not say he was asking them to attack the US. Deathlibrarian (talk) 04:18, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 June 2024

Remove Spain from British allies as no xitaiton so dubious claim 64.189.18.51 (talk) 14:36, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: There are plenty of references in the article's body to back up the claim. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk • contribs) 05:27, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

There is an ongoing conversation active above about this issue, if you would wish to join that. But as per CanonNi, perhaps read the other discussions held previously before commenting, as there has been a few discussions about this topic over the years. Deathlibrarian (talk) 08:33, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

"Americans were able to end the impressment of their citizens"

I noticed this in the historiography section. Of course, the US didn't end impressment, this is a bit of a misconception - the Brits dropped it because they no longer needed sailors because the war with Napoleon was going well. When the US asked for it to be dropped as policy at the Treaty of Ghent, the Brits refused, and the US ratified the treaty anyway.

If this para is saying that American Historians believe this to be the case, then may be the wording needs to be changed to reflect that, but presently this is basically repeating a misnomer and is misleading. It's also unsourced.Deathlibrarian (talk) 04:26, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

This sounds like a case when one should never let the facts get in the way of a good story. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:41, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

I think that's what whoever added it to the article was thinking!Deathlibrarian (talk) 12:41, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

It stopped simply because the Royal Navy did not want to pay for sailors it did not need. The right to press however was retained until superseded by conscription at the start of WWI. There was a slight change to the law in 1836 to prevent anyone being pressed more than once and to limit the service of a pressed man to five years but the right to press was very much reiterated. It was never the intention to press Americans (which would have been illegal) but of course there were some mistakes. The British compensated and repatriated 3,800 of those taken after they were found to be American citizens. Do you have a suggestion for rewriting that particular sentence? --Ykraps (talk) 07:14, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, indeed, thanks for that extra detail, I knew it was kept on the books for potential use for a while after, but wasn't sure of the details. My point of course is that the US didn't somehow force the UK to end Impressment. Simplest thing is just to remove the reference.

Current wording: With the failure of the invasion of British Canada advancing the concept of Canadian identity, and of Canada as a distinct :: region that would continue to evolve into a nation.[381] Americans were able to end the impressment of their citizens and enforce their sovereignty. Both the restoration of honor and what has been called the Second War of Independence are important themes in American historiography, and are considered significant results by historians.[382] Indigenous nations are generally held to have lost in the war.[383]

Suggested rewording:

With the failure of the invasion of British Canada advancing the concept of Canadian identity, Canada remained a distinct region that would continue to evolve into a nation.[381] Americans were able to enforce their sovereignty, and both the restoration of honor and what has been called the Second War of Independence are important themes in American historiography, and are considered significant results by historians.[382] Indigenous nations are generally held to have lost in the war.[383]

Deathlibrarian (talk) 02:38, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I can get behind that. Seems simplest because no extra sourcing is required. --Ykraps (talk) 20:02, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Good for me. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:20, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I'll replace it, thanks everyone. I think its a pretty obvious change to make, not controversial. Deathlibrarian (talk) 02:12, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

That section is an excerpt from the Historiography page (it maps the text from there) so I had to change it on that page.All sorted. Deathlibrarian (talk) 02:24, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Capitalisation of "house" and "senate"

Em3rgent0rdr, the house and the senate per Merriam-Webster are often used in capitalized form as the shortened name of a specific house [or senate] such as in the US Congress.[9][10] Proper nouns are always capitalised - not just often. These are not examples of proper nouns|names. While they may often be capped, this does not mean that capitalisation is necessary per the general advice at MOS:CAPS. Capitalisation of such shortened forms is sometimes done for significance but per MOS:SIGNIFCAPS, we don't do that. MOS:INSTITUTIONS more specifically addresses this issue and tells us not to cap in such instances. The matter of capitalising shortened forms of formal names has been specifically discussed here and rejected by the community. We have our own style guide to follow. You reversion to capitalise these words here is quite contrary to guidance. Cinderella157 (talk) 10:48, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

MOS:INSTITUTIONS literally says "Also treat as a proper name a shorter but still specific form, consistently capitalized in reliable generalist sources (e.g., US State Department or the State Department, depending on context)." Em3rgent0rdr (talk) 14:02, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Please explain the relevance of your comments to the article. TFD (talk) 20:29, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

The relevance is explained by the edit reversion linked. These are not comparable to a still specific form per example given. Cinderella157 (talk) 22:01, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

• Notified at WT:MOSCAPS. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:35, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 June 2024

Spanish alliy Calum requires a citation. 64.189.18.46 (talk) 18:59, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Ligaturama (talk) 16:38, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 July 2024

remove claim about spainbeing on brtiain's side since no citation for it and it is not true. 64.189.18.51 (talk) 07:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

 Partly done: Removed the {{citation needed}} tag as it was not needed. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk • contribs) 12:41, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

@CanonNi A cursory google search suggests it is a matter of interpretation. [11] Maybe a note on it? The "casualties" section also lists below 20. JackTheSecond (talk) 14:22, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Infobox and belligerents, with Spain on the list

As things as they currently are, I have 3 observations

1. Strength of US Allies is only 125 Choctaw. Surely, there must be more numbers for the various tribes?
2. The Regency of Algiers has been added in good faith, but I do not think this should remain for much longer.
3. Spain is listed. Given the Peninsular War was taking place, it did not have the resources to actively intervene, to launch an offensive, in overseas territories. (Simon Bolivar took advantage of Spain's weakness at this time.) A jittery Governor of Pensacola, Mateo González Manrique had his territory and his neutrality violated by the British officer Edward Nicolls, then Jackson came along and violated the neutrality. When Nicolls left, he took half the Spanish garrison away, which was stranded elsewhere for the remainder of the conflict.

There is no declaration of war on the part of Spain against the US, or vice versa. There was effectively a border dispute with the Battle of Pensacola (1814), but the impotence of the Spanish was not going to see any ongoing conflict on their part.

I don't see the US Navy listed as pro-Arab forces in the Six Day War, and I don't see the Brazilian armed forces, or the Finns, as combatants in the War in the Pacific from 1942 to 1945.

Spain has been mentioned in passing in the past

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:War_of_1812/Archive_22#Spain

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:War_of_1812/Archive_20#Infobox

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:War_of_1812/Archive_8#Spain?%60

I think as it currently stands, it is misleading, and implies Spanish forces engaged from 1813 through 1814. I am only aware of the capture of Pensacola on November 7, 1814 as the one time Spanish forces were engaged against the US Army during the War of 1812. I don't think being sandwiched between the fiery and ill-tempered personalities of Jackson and Nicolls was a particularly appealing prospect! Keith H99 (talk) 20:05, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

• Where one side fights two separate wars at the same time, it does not mean that they are the same war or that the belligerents against a common belligerents are cobelligerents - unless the sources explicitly tell us otherwise. That two things happen at the same time does not mean they are the one thing. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:27, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Per sources that I currently have available at hand (I'll find more later), but I've read about the British-Spanish alliance for years now.

"The Slaves Gamble: Choosing Sides in the War of 1812 by Gene Allen Smith (pg156)

"The rising fear that Andrew Jackson's army would soon descend on Pensascola convinced West Florida governor Mateo González Manrique to request British assistance, and within days the entire British Gulf force occupied Pensacola. Nicolls hoisted the Union Jack over the city in mid-August 1814 and declared himself the military commander of the city." Per Smith, the plan by Nicolls at Pensacola was to use the British forces (including the Colonial Marines), native tribes, and any available Spanish forces (with townspeople). The Spanish slaves were recruited from the city and this was a cause of friction because of their alliance.

"The Slaves Gamble: Choosing Sides in the War of 1812 by Gene Allen Smith (pg157)

"Cochrane had instructed Nicholls not to recruit Spanish slaves because Britain and Spain were then allies."

"The Maroons of Prospect Bluff and Their Quest for Freedom in the Atlantic World by Nathaniel Millett (pg47)

"“For centuries Spanish Florida had relied on blacks and Indians to defend itself against the aggressive encroachments of the British and the Anglo Americans. Now the Spanish were forced to rely on the British to defend them against the United States in an alliance that would have mystified earlier generations on both sides of the border." Millett notes that West Florida (Mobile) was mentioned by the British as part of the United States's violated of Article IX in the Treaty of Ghent.

"The Maroons of Prospect Bluff and Their Quest for Freedom in the Atlantic World by Nathaniel Millett (pg88)

“In the same month that the war officially ended, Alexander Cochrane expressed an opinion shared by many British politicians and military leaders when he wrote that Britain must take active measures, "for relieving West Florida from the usurped authority of the American Government (being a colony belonging to Spain) and at the same time to afford to the Indian Nations an opportunity of recovering territories of which they have been so unjustly deprived by the United States." The British feared an American Florida and wanted their Red Stick allies to recover the lands taken from them by the Treaty of Fort Jackson. These two goals were intertwined with the realization that a strong and well-armed Red Stick and Seminole presence in the Southeast represented the most realistic hope for Spain to maintain possession of the Floridas. With this in mind, the British encouraged the Red Sticks to endorse the Treaty of Ghent because of the inclusion of Article 9, calling for the restoration of Indian lands to their 1811 boundaries. Accordingly, Cochrane instructed Nicolls to "tell our Indian Allies that they have been included [in the treaty] and that they are placed as to territory as they were in 1811[.] If the peace shall not be ratified, you will have a large reinforcement sent to you at Apalachicola."

"The Greatest Fury: The Battle of New Orleans and the Rebirth of America by William C. Davis" (pg333)

"In fact, Britain's existing alliances with Spain and the Indian tribes complicated adherence to Ghent's territorial provisions. Spain wanted a friendly buffer state between an expansionist United States and its colonial possessions in Texas, Mexico, East Florida, and that part of West Florida east of the Pearl River." Davis ends the paragraph with, "Returning New Orleans or any part of Louisiana defeated both goals and left the Americans poised to spread west across the Mississippi, and east to Spanish East Florida's doorstep. That could only complicate British relations with its Spaniard allies. It came down to the value Whitehall put on those alliance." Davis noted that forces on the ground (Colonel Thorton and Captain Roberts) planned to ransom New Orleans back to President Madison. Bathurst envisioned the possibility of keeping all or part of Louisiana indefinitely.

"The Greatest Fury: The Battle of New Orleans and the Rebirth of America by William C. Davis" (pg334)

"Whitehall repeatedly emphasized that the United States had no lawful title to Louisiana. It explicitly told Cochrane and Pakenham they could encourage Louisianans to seek independence from the United States or a return to Spanish dominion so long as they did not promise British assistance or alliance. Pakenham was actually told that New Orleans would probably be handed over to Spain, and Spaniards shared that expectation." Ironic Luck (talk) 21:15, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Britain and Spain were allied against France. I don’t believe there was an alliance against the US and none of the sources you have quoted remotely suggest that there was.--Ykraps (talk) 19:47, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Did France ever plan to attack Pensacola in 1814? I am aware of the British-Spanish alliance against the French. Jackson tested the neutrality of the local Spanish authorities at Pensacola with a flag of truce brought forth by Major Pierre, but he (Pierre) was immediately fired upon. Jackson additionally charged the local Spanish authorities with "providing shelter to British troops" (per Daughan) for his reasoning to storm Pensacola.

"1812: The War Nobody Won by Albert Martin" (pg142)

"As soon as the war began, the War Department asked Tennessee's governor for militia units to drive the British out of Florida. Florida at this time belonged to Spain, Britian's ally in the Napoleonic Wars. Although neutral in the American struggle, Spain went out of its way to be "neutral" in favor of Britain. The Royal Navy freely used Florida's harbors, especially Pensacola, as if they were home ports."

I would add Ronald Drez's book (which also called out the British-Spanish alliance), but I was informed that he is considered non-RS per the current Wikipedia standards.

Here is what I see as a reasonable change: "Spanish Floridas (1814)" instead of "Spain (1813)"

The Spanish military had abandoned the local Spanish authorities, but this was primarily due to their decline. Professor McDougall notes this in his book:

"Freedom Just Around the Corner: A New American History 1585-1828 by Walter A. McDougall" (pg423)

"The War of 1812 settled the matter. Britain held Canada, but failed to arrest the growth of the United States. Spain gripped her empire with no more than one legal finger. All Indians within reach were vanquished."

The sources that I note above clearly have it written that there was an alliance between the local Spanish authorities and the British government. And it seems more than coincidental that there were discussions related to U.S. territory upon that British-Spanish alliance. Ironic Luck (talk) 12:28, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

I was, of course, referring to a formal Spanish-British alliance; an alliance between the governments of Spain and Britain, not a temporary co-operation between local authorities and British troops, against an American land-grab. I don’t see anything in your sources to suggest the former and, in fact, one specifically states that Spain was neutral in the American struggle.--Ykraps (talk) 18:24, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Martin noted that it was not really neutral, hence he used "neutral" with quotation marks in his book. Spain needed the British support and the local authorities asked for it. The British were driven out; this outcome also hurt their reputation among the allied-Creeks. The books that I cited do not refer to this as a "temporary co-operation." Personally, I see it as fair to change it to Spanish Floridas (1814) as they were the ones whom executed the support for the British. Ironic Luck (talk) 00:57, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Irrespective of Martin's confusion over what the terms of the neutrality were, he notes that they were neutral. Monroe also considered them neutral, writing to Jackson to tell him to not risk war with Spain. You are of course free to propose whatever changes you wish to the infobox. Personally, I would like to see an end to infoboxes entirely, not just here, simply because they cannot convey the whole story accurately.--Ykraps (talk) 07:55, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

I think there is more merit with Spanish Florida (1814) than what there currently is.Keith H99 (talk) 18:36, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree with the change to "Spanish Florida (1814)" instead of "Spain (1813)" on the belligerents section. Ironic Luck (talk) 07:57, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

The Patriot War, which took place at the same time as the War of 1812, appears to be so insignificant that it does not have a corresponding article in the Spanish language!!! Keith H99 (talk) 17:58, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Looking through the references posted here (I admit, I haven't read much on Spain and the war apart from this) it would seem Spain was officially neutral, so should be removed from the infobox as a belligerent. As a comparison, Ireland was officially neutral in WW2, even though it favoured the UK rather than German, but certainly isn't listed as a belligerent against Germany in the WW2 article.Deathlibrarian (talk) 08:30, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Also, as per User:Cinderella157's comment I had also assumed there must be more US native allies than just 125 Choctaw. I knew the numbers favoured the UK, but only 125???Deathlibrarian (talk) 08:45, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

The belligerent should be changed to "Spanish Florida (1814)" based on the material cited. It's neutral on paper but not in practice; hence Spain (as a country) wanted Louisiana back and Spanish Floridas wanted British protection from the United States. Was there ever an Irish city that Germany military took over and where (local) authorities were legally charged by Germany with "providing shelter to British troops" in comparison? Ironic Luck (talk) 07:57, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Changed to reflect Spanish Florida. I would like to see a reliable source as to Spanish casualties at Pensacola. The most significant outcome was that the Spanish troops were taken elsewhere and marooned for the rest of the conflict. Keith H99 (talk) 18:48, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Yep, I support Spanish Florida as well. Makes sense. Deathlibrarian (talk) 09:18, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

There was scarcely any War of 1812 content on the Spanish Florida article, which was surprising. There's some conflicting orders from Cochrane to Nicolls. He is to respect Spanish neutrality, yet at the same time he is to enter their territory, parley with the Indians, and recruit them to the British cause. The Spanish were in no position to stop the British, and Manrique saw Jackson as a more credible threat, on the back of recent fighting with the Patriot War and the Creek War. Perfidious Albion or Manifest Destiny, a rock and a hard place. Manrique's judgement went against that of his superior Apodaca, who wanted to maintain Spanish neutrality. Keith H99 (talk) 11:54, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

An interesting quote from the article on Pintado

'Cochrane ordered the return of all slaves and Spanish troops captured by the British to Pensacola aboard one of his ships'

Do you capture your allies under usual circumstances? The Spanish source did not consider the British to be allies of the Spanish, clearly! Keith H99 (talk) 19:36, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Flagicons

The flagicons should not be removed from the infobox because, as another user pointed out, per MOS:INFOBOXFLAG: "Situations where flag icons may be used in infoboxes include...Summarizing military conflicts" Along with this infobox being a infobox that summarizes a military conflict, the flagicons also serve a useful purpose by showing the flags flown by each of the countries in the war, which is a case of the flagicons conveying "information in addition to the text." Wowzers122 (talk) 02:41, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. INFOBOXFLAG is pretty straight forward that situations like this are the exact moment to use the flag icons. There are multiple factions on each side, the flag icon next to the commanders helps out as well. Its also common for any and all articles on military conflicts to have flagicons, and its seems pedantic to the point of sticking out to erroneously demand that not be used in this article. Friedbyrd (talk) 03:05, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

• While MOS:INFOBOXFLAGS is permissive of flags for conflict boxes, they must still serve a useful purpose when they are used - ie their use is conditional and must not be primarily decorative. As Moxy observes, these are small images most people can't see. They are not sufficiently clear to show the differences in flags that may occur with time and therefore, are not capable of showing the flags flown by each of the countries in the war at the time. This rational is not consistent with the spirit and intent of the guidance.

Flags can serve a useful purpose when there are two or more belligerents on one or more of the sides and they act as a key (shorthand) for information pertaining to the specific belligerents in different sections of the infobox. There are multiple belligerents in this case but most of the belligerents do not have national flags. Consequently, flags are not able to effectively serve this purpose and other devices are being relied upon - eg the names themself are sufficiently distinctive to indicate the allegiance of commanders. The flags are therefore redundant and are not fulfilling a useful purpose here.

Note, the use of the Spanish flag is inappropriate/misleading per the discussion above regarding Spain. I had made a response to this effect earlier but for whatever reason, it didn't actually appear. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:34, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Include Reference to Napoleonic Wars in infobox

The previous status quo has been to include reference to the Napoleonic Wars in the infobox, as most historians consider it either to have been a theater of or at least been importantly related to the Napoleonic Wars. However, this seems to have become controversial recently among some Wikipedia users. This section is to discuss, argue, and form a consensus as to whether this connection should be present in the infobox of this article or not. I for one Support the continued inclusion of "Napoleonic Wars" in the "part of" section do to the large historical consensus that the War of 1812 was directly related to, impacted by, and had an impact on the Napoleonic Wars (as a most conservative argument, many more ascribe it the status of a theater in itself). In fact, on the Napoleonic Wars article itself, the War of 1812 is described as a subsidiary war. AvRand (talk) 10:42, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Mere longevity is the weakest and often worst form of consensus. You need to cite a source that describes the War of 1812 as one of the Napoleonic Wars, not merely as being related to or contemporaneous with them. The fact that another article says something is not itself the substance of an argument—cf. WP:BEENHERE and WP:OTHERCONTENT. I also think its inclusion there is mistaken, but it even says on Napoleonic Wars merely that The War of 1812 coincided with the War of the Sixth Coalition. There is no source cited there attesting that it is actually considered subsidiary Remsense ‥ 论 10:44, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

To clarify your position User:Remsense, are you against the inclusion because your interpretation of history differs, or only because you don't feel it's at the moment properly sourced? AvRand (talk) 10:52, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're asking here—like always, we write articles based on what reliable sources say. Remsense ‥ 论 10:55, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Well from what I understand, most sources acknowledge the important connection between the War of 1812 and the Napoleonic Wars, so I'm asking if your interpretation of history differs, and that's your issue (historians do often disagree) , or if, if properly sourced, you will be satisfied and drop your argument? AvRand (talk) 11:08, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I stated it pretty clearly above: You need to cite a source that describes the War of 1812 as one of the Napoleonic Wars, not merely as being related to or contemporaneous with them. It is the |partof= parameter, not the |relatedto= parameter. That would get you started at least —we generally only include information in the infobox if it's a critical fact attested in many sources, per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. Remsense ‥ 论 11:10, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I also request that you self-revert, as you are mistaken about what WP:BURDEN says. Remsense ‥ 论 11:09, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

The present version is still misusing the |partof= parameter in a way that is nonstandard and thus potentially misleading. It should also be noted that the other editor below would prefer its removal from the infobox also, so if you're willing to assess consensus by what editors are presently saying, you're insisting against consensus. Remsense ‥ 论 11:46, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Since France was not involved in the war, and the U.S. was not involved in the wars between France and the UK it's not clear that it was part of a war between France and the UK. It's better to explain the connection in the body of the article rather than put it into the info-box. TFD (talk) 10:51, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

For what it's worth, this has been discussed before here in 2008 on this article and here in 2016 on the Napoleonic Wars article. I'm not sure that either discussion resulted in what could be considered consensus.

Whether or not to count the War of 1812 as a Napoleonic War seems to be sort of inconsistent across Wikipedia:

• The Napoleonic Wars article has it as a "subsidiary war"
• The Napoleonic Wars campaignbox template puts it essentially on equal footing with the Coalition Wars (though this is obviously a bit strange).
• The battle map on the Napoleonic Wars page (not sure how to link it directly) only includes conflicts in Europe, so not the War of 1812.

I think this argument essentially has as much to do with the definition of "part of" as the definition of "Napoleonic Wars" so it's difficult to support with sources. I like the "relates to" phrasing in the current edit, but as User:Remsense mentioned, the definition provided for |partof= at Template:Infobox military conflict doesn't necessarily support this. Overall I'd say I'm currently against including this change in the infobox but I think it could make sense to add more detail on the relation between this war and the Napoleonic Wars in the content of the article itself. Rovenrat (talk) 12:02, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Again, it doesn't matter what other unsourced content someone else added to another article. Remsense ‥ 论 12:07, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

True, I don't mean to imply that as a reason to make a decision one way or another here, just that it's not unusual or nonsensical for editors to categorize things this way. And the listing of the War of 1812 as a "subsidiary war" isn't unsourced, though I don't have access to the book to look through the exact language used there. Rovenrat (talk) 12:40, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I did check the book. (And yes, it was fast, since I perused the index, in case anyone was wondering.) There are no such claims; it is a history of the period that discusses affairs in an interwoven, transatlantic manner as the title would suggest, but does not make any of the claims or characterizations that are at issue here. Remsense ‥ 论 12:44, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I would dispute that characterization, the book shows a link between the War of 1812 and the Napoleonic Wars AvRand (talk) 12:49, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

• The War of 1812 is related to the Napoleonic Wars but not part of them. The spirit and intent of the template documentation is quite clear as is the inherent wording of the parameter - it is to indicate the parent conflict. So, no related to. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:04, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

• "part of" and "(importantly) related to" are not synonymous - support exclusion per Remsense. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:06, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

While we're here with me thankfully not catching a time-out for this morning's mania, I did triple-check that subtenancy to Sixty Years' War was correct—though that made far more intuitive sense to begin with. (I ought to work on this article with my Canadian peers alongside others with my Vietnamese, Filipino, and Afghan peers—so I can contribute to the entire gamut of blunderful Ls within my country's military history.)— Remsense ‥ 论 05:23, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

While Remsense has made many errors in the procedure of this, fortunately enough editors have weighed in to form a consensus regardless. As the large majority opinion seems to be in favor of leaving out a connection to the Napoleonic Wars in the infobox, I will defer to this consensus. I still would be in favor of adding a small section to dive deeper into the (indisputable) inter-relatedness between the two conflicts in the body though. Thanks to all who weighed in! AvRand (talk) 17:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC)