Talk:Unification Church/Archive 5

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Completely missing part "Persecution"

I do see the Criticism part with mixture of regular criticism and anticult movement agenda. But I do not see any mention of persecution, which is self-evident it should exist and it should be described. Looks like just one side is present here. A few examples could be:

• The German ban on the Schengen area, later lifted as unjust.
• Japanese abductions and forced confinement of the UC believers by organized groups called deprogrammers - which are by the way very much connected with their critics.

It could be a wide theme as in JW case. I cannot add it by myself because of an lock. Is there someone who could help me with this? --Tarylem (talk) 19:44, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

@Tarylem You could draft the section in your sandbox (with sources) and then ask for comment here when done. Counterfeit Purses (talk) 20:41, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

thank you for your advice. Will try to prepare something. --Tarylem (talk) 11:59, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

@Tarylem Same as @Counterfeit Purses if you have a text you feel adds value and is informative to the article as a whole, aligns with WP policies, please share. Saussure4661 (talk) 19:21, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Just to give you some context: the church's claims of deprogramming via "abductions and forced confinement" is accused of exaggeration or fabrication as has been already noted in Freedom of religion in Japan#Forced religious conversion. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 05:52, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. As there are cases, where Japanese courts decided in favor of kidnapped people, which I already have clear evidence about on my computer, there is a space to put such content, which is completely missing here. The opposite side, where just the anticult content is put into the article, is already abundantly represented in the article. This leads me by the way to the necessity of checking anticult style of edits in this and the linked articles. Thanks for showing me the way in this direction. For example, on the linked article I do see some attempts to misinterpret the source in the summary, which is, in reality, U.S. Department of state, which is very trusted, not HRWF, not CESNUR and not the Unification Church, regardless what anticult agenda think about it. I do see the very same tactics on Azeri towards Armeni, ruSSia against JhW, or all around the world - same steps to dishonest sources or opponents by the spread of fog, whataboutism, or other steps against religious freedom, the right assured as the Basic human right - and this should not be performed on Wikipedia. Touching on how to extend that part about Freedom of religion in Japan - other reports from the U.S. Department of State from different years should be taken there, not just the latest. The history is important to describe, as it was quite different. For example, those speaking of the Toru Goto case, etc. Hope it helps. But feel free to extend it yourself before I do, that article is not my focus just now. Australia. Too many rabbits, not enough hunters. Searching for a friendly virus. With regards, --Tarylem (talk) 18:36, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

@Tarylem Just a reminder that talk pages are for discussing issues with an article, not general discussion. Counterfeit Purses (talk) 18:44, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Forgive my inexperience with these rules, I'm somewhat new here. But I think you should rather remind Sameboat as he brings it in. I was just answering in case of that interconnected article. Will try to look for that from: now.--Tarylem (talk) 19:12, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

@all - One part is ready to publish. Please find it in my Sandbox: here. Is here someone who can review and add it to the article? As persecution is very much connected with criticism, it should be just before or just after part of "Criticism". As this one is shorter so far, it should be before it. Thank you in advance. --Tarylem (talk) 19:49, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

... I'm just surprised, the initial call was replied to in less than one hour, so I was imagining a great cooperation, unfortunately, no one reacted to this message for more than one week. --Tarylem (talk) 20:09, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

@Tarylem This isn't something I'm interested in but I took a quick look at your draft. I don't think that a German travel ban for two people counts as "persecution" against all members of this group. Maybe this belongs in Sun Myung Moon? Maybe other editors will have other opinions. Counterfeit Purses (talk) 22:37, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Do I see correctly a "resistance" to add it? To your argument: Important is, who was the parties in the court. UC against Germany. The court did not evaluate the ban on just two persons. The court evaluated the religious freedom rights of all UC believers in the Schengen area, as religious meetings are part of their worship, and the court stated it in the ruling. So, it touches a whole church in the area, and that is why it belongs here, not in the SMM article. If this is necessary to be in the text, I can add it, but as there would be many cases, I do prefer to keep it short. Additionally, we should not evaluate, what is "enough" important, but reliable sources do. This case has so many sources, that it could have a separate article. But this would be an overkill for now and my time is limited.--Tarylem (talk) 11:21, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't belong in a persecution section unless the reliable sources call it persecution. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:20, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

This sounds like a joke. Just a reminder: this is not a speech exercise. So how should we call it then, when people are forcibly abducted or expelled from the country, treated as criminals and UNHCR then stated it was a violation of their basic human rights...? So in the situation, when there are articles "Persecution of" various religions, I'm blocked from publishing about this particular one. Regardless I already edited Persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses and Persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia (yes, multiple articles per country). This starts to be interesting and it sounds like a challenge. Thank you for motivation. --Tarylem (talk) 16:58, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

And once more to this case: The court concluded that the authorities' decision denied Mr. and Mrs. Moon entry into the Schengen area and disruption of the practice of faith by their church's believers during several years was unlawful and unconstitutional based on presumptions and hearsay. What else is it if not persecution? --Tarylem (talk) 17:16, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

I mean its just not persecution... And even if it was we can't do WP:OR, the source would actually need to say it. We don't have any problem finding sources which refer to the treatment of JW as persecution. If this really is similar then you can obviously present sources which refer to the treatment of UC as persecution. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:49, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, there are similar sources like for JHW. But I do not agree with you that naming some treatment as "persecution" is original research. Same, that sources should say, that it is persecution. That is not true. You can't say you can call something a car until sources say it is a car. There are some definitions. By definition, persecution is by Oxford Languages (languages.oup.com): "hostility (hostile behavior; unfriendliness or opposition) and ill-treatment (cruel or inhumane treatment), especially based on ethnicity, religion, or sexual orientation or political beliefs". So yes, possibly the name of the section could be "Persecution and discrimination" as this one german case is probably more discrimination than persecution. But the Russian case which I do have prepared when ECHR stated the church believer was kept in inhuman conditions fulfilled the definition of persecution. Same with the sources I used in JHW articles, some are not "persecution" per se, and in some, the source did not state it is persecution, but still it is by definition. So question is, how would you name the paragraph I'm trying to create if you look at the sources in my sandbox? I do finish here unless there is more will to cooperate. --Tarylem (talk) 21:10, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

You say you don't agree its OR... and then you go and do a bunch of original analysis. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:14, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

If you do not want to help me, stop accusing me of WP-OR - as everything I put into the paragraph to be inserted in this article has a source according to the rules. So better I stop replying to you as this makes no sense to me. --Tarylem (talk) 22:12, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Do you mean everything besides that it was persecution? Because that seems to be the main point and that is OR, its not an accusation against you its just what it is. If you can't understand this pretty soon you won't be allowed to edit any article on wikipedia. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:04, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

I Added one more source which makes it crystal clear --Tarylem (talk) 11:54, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

section added, title as it describes, Schengen ban for the founders, Schengen is for Europe so naturally I omitted the location from the title Saussure4661 (talk) 22:33, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

thank you for the effort, just now it is in the "Criticism" part. So just wonder what in the unlawful entry ban and systematic refusal to comply with the law in several years is a "Criticism", when nobody in the sources calls it a criticism. Hope there is a chance to restructuralize the article later to the "Persecution and discrimination" paragraph, when there will be more cases. --Tarylem (talk) 09:46, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

@all: I added some other parts to my Sandbox. Now the Persecution and Discrimination section includes sections for France, Russia and United States. As I see, the "Germany" part is included in the article under "Criticism". Please keep in mind and look at everything in my queue, I think a "Harassment and Discrimination" paragraph would be needed. In particular, reliable sources from beyond the Iron Curtain cases specifically say that the Church was "persecuted", so there is no question as to what the paragraph should be called. I was very surprised how many cases came up when I tried to get into it. We keep looking at Japanese hijacks that look huge as this practice looks common there. I have selected the most reliable sources from the ones I had, so I hope that no pointless discussion will be repeated. Thank you in advance for your voluntary action. --Tarylem (talk) 19:56, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

I would still say no... It looks like trying to force a bunch of primary sources into an arrangement which violated WP:SYNTH and overall just wouldn't be due even if it didn't. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:08, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

1) Which cases are with just primary sources without any secondary ones? And 2) what exactly would be a violation of WP:SYNTH, means what exactly in parts France, Russia, United States is information mentioned by no source? Please tell me, I'm really curious. Be exact, name it. --Tarylem (talk) 23:03, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

The SYNTH aspect would be calling it persecution when none of the sources do, you can't combine sources to say something which none of them individually say. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 03:45, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Ok, thank you for being specific and that there are no other critical comments. I'm a bit surprised, especially when I mentioned above (with absolutely no impact), that the behind the Iron Curtain sources specifically say "Persecution", where people died in prison, even if I mention that this is in the queue: I do think that it would be easy to prove the SYNTH accusation from your side as a completely invalid point of view. On the other hand, I disagree with such an "autistic" or better "literal" explanation of the source's usage. --Tarylem (talk) 09:35, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

There are other critical comments (for example the overuse of primary sources, such as court documents), this is just where we're stuck. Do you have any conflicts of interest with the Unification Church? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:10, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Systematic prevention of adding any information esp. from your side under strange reasons, was, by the way, what grabbed my attention. Use of court decisions is OK, same as I did in Jehovah's Witness with absolutely no issue. Looking at what primary and secondary sources are, I see that ECHR is by the way a summary of other court cases, so it would be a question if it is a primary or secondary source as it sums acts of sides described elsewhere and decisions of other courts. For the decision of ECHR is it a primary one, for the description of what happened it is a secondary source already. Additionally, most ECHR decisions have a Press release, which is a secondary source. The only conflict here is this pointless discussion, as there was no issue to add ECHR court cases to Jehovah's Witness articles, but there is an issue here, so I can just wonder WHY? So the discussion with you leads to nowhere again, so I would not repeat that. --Tarylem (talk) 15:56, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

What is "my side"? I do not edit the Jehovah's Witness articles, my primary interest with the Unification Church is in their seafood operations and as far as I am aware the Jehovah's Witness' are not active in that space. Your edits there may also be an issue, I have not checked. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:37, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

I've reviewed the content and after some consideration and taking into account concerns over the above discussion, I have settled for a less ominous title for "Persecution". Saussure4661 (talk) 19:24, 23 April 2024 (UTC)