Talk:Turkmun (Hazara tribe)

Turkmun Hazara tribe

@Mioncraft: The name Turkmun or Turkman is based on descent and race, not ethnicity. You falsely claim that no writer has addressed them, while a number of writers have considered this Hazara tribe to be of Turokman race or descent, including Babur, for now we are satisfied with that and that is enough.

@Kakineh, I saw that you have now twice reverted my edit and the source without providing evidence for the problems you found with it. The source I referenced is a credible academic work from a person who visited Afghanistan in the 1930s, making it one of the earliest and most reputable sources about the etymology of this tribe, and as far as I know, no one else more verifiable has commented on this topic.

Secondly, you claim that Babur relates the Turkmun Hazara to the Oghuz Turkic peoples, which are what the term "Turkomans" refers to.this claims of yours appears to be misleading, as Babur does not explicitly state a relation between them, a point you also seem to acknowledge.

To summarize:

1. You removed sourced information without reason.
2. The claim regarding Babur's statements does not accurately reflect his writings.

I’m open to discussing this further and would appreciate your response. Mioncraft (talk) 05:09, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

As you say, Babur do not explicitly mentioned the them as Oghuz people, it is true, but he mentioned as "Turkoman Hazaras". The content you added is not correct and is contradicts to the other facts and the source you added cannot be verified because the page you noted is unfortunately unavailable. Kakineh (talk) 19:02, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

As I already mentioned and Bacon points out, the "Turkman" most likely refers to the name of Location as she points out along with Samreen that Hazara tribal names are either Geographical or an epynom. There is no reason to say that they were Turkomans and you have not proved that they are nor have you provided a source for it. Ive already checked very carefully the best sources of the naming of Turkmun Hazaras and this is what I found. Never have I found anything by anyone else, not even modern sources that say Turkmun Hazaras are Turkoman. And even if you had some kind of source, most likely modern, which I’m sure you don’t, you would need to consider WP:PST.

Also, if the page was unavailable Im curious did you read it? You can look up "The Inquiry into the History of the Hazara Mongols of Afghanistan Author(s): Elizabeth E. Bacon" on Hazara.net. Its not hard to find. The one by Farha Samreen you'll need to login onto JSTOR most likely. Mioncraft (talk) 05:20, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

But they didn't say anything about Turkmun (Hazara tribe). First of all, you can never compare the claim in the source about a few Hazara tribes to the Turkman tribe of Hazara, while nothing is said about this tribe in your source. Secondly, who said that the names of all Hazara tribes are derived from the names of its geographical regions, while this is completely wrong. I name several Hazara tribes whose geographical regions are named after them, for example: Dai Chupan region is derived from Dai Chupan tribe, Behsud region is derived from Behsud tribe, Jaghatu region is derived from Jaghatu (Jaghatai) tribe, Daizangi region is derived From Daizangi tribe, Daikundi region derived from Daikundi tribe, Daimirdad region derived from Daimirdad tribe or Sheikh Ali region derived from Sheikh Ali tribe (a person named Sheikh Ali).

Regarding the geographical location of Turkmun Hazara tribe, it should be said that in the past they lived in areas larger than the current Turkmen Valley. This geographical naming is relatively new and the name of the valley is derived from the same Hazara tribe, which is part of their historical place of residence. Kakineh (talk) 09:57, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

1."But they didn't say anything about Turkmun (Hazara tribe)" , " while nothing is said about this tribe in your source." - "The 'Turkman Hazaras' mentioned by Babur appear to have derived their name from a place rather than from any supposed affiliation with the Turkomans"-(Bacon, 1969, p. 247).

2. "Secondly, who said that the names of all Hazara tribes are derived from the names of its geographical regions, while this is completely wrong......." - Strawman, did not say all Hazara tribal names come from geographic regions. I said they are usually either Geographic or eponym, eponym meaning a name dervied from a person in case you didn't know. I took this information from these sources: "It is interesting to note that Hazara qaums and tayefas were named either after the area which they inhabited" - ( Samreen, F. 825)

"Some of the tribes or sub-tribes take their names from places. For example, the Yek Aulang tribe derives its name from a valley in the Hindu Kush which was already known by the name in the time of Timur." -(Bacon, 1969, p. 247).

Refusing to read my sources and pretending like they dont exist while breaking the WP:NOR rule. Mioncraft (talk) 13:53, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

"The content you added is not correct and is contradicts to the other facts " You have not backed up your "facts" with anything. Mioncraft (talk) 05:27, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Waiting very patiently for your sources. If you havint provided any soruce after a perioid of time then ill just revert it back since I have WP:PST. Mioncraft (talk) 02:15, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I will not allow anyone to include false informations about Hazaras this encyclopedia that is not even mentioned in the source. Thank you--Kakineh (talk) 10:09, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

How would you know its false information when you unwittingly admited before you didint even read it? "The content you added is not correct and is contradicts to the other facts and the source you added cannot be verified because the page you noted is unfortunately unavailable"

You wont even provide the "sources" you keep claiming you have. Mioncraft (talk) 13:56, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

I put this talk page up on WP:3 Mioncraft (talk) 14:36, 11 October 2024 (UTC)