Talk:Turkey/Archive 42

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Archive 42

I think Hittites should be exclusively included in the lead

Hittites have a very important role in Turkish culture and history. I understand Anatolian peoples are already included but at least we can do something like "namely Hittites" after the hatti assimilastion sentence Youprayteas ^{talk/contribs} 16:43, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

It's included under Anatolian peoples, but I added it as an example to Anatolian peoples. Bogazicili (talk) 17:27, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Anatolian Seljuks should be included in establishment date.

A Turkish-speaking Muslim Turkic entity in Anatolia is definitely the predecessor of Turkey. My edit got reverted so let's come to a conclusion. Youprayteas ^{talk/contribs} 05:23, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I think it is unnecessary as the infobox will be bloated. If we go further back to include all established nations we need remove some ww1 stuff. Shadow4dark (talk) 06:13, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Abolishment of the sultanate is not that necesarry in my opinion for the establishment dates Youprayteas ^{talk/contribs} 06:50, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

We should add the Anatolian beyliks as well and remove some ww 1

"established dates" Shadow4dark (talk) 06:53, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree Youprayteas ^{talk/contribs} 07:23, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

No we shouldn't. Anatolian Seljuks co-existed with the Ottomans. Abolition of the sultanate is the formal ending of the Ottoman Empire was made by the TBMM and is directly related to the formation of the republic. Beshogur (talk) 09:40, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

And 1077 is the date on wikipedia. It's even unclear when Suleiman I formed the state or whether it acted as a vassal for the Great Seljuks or not. Not to mention there was no coin minted in his name. Beshogur (talk) 09:41, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

No to expansion. When in doubt, look at other Featured Articles: Japan, Germany, and Canada. They are all much more concise. Bogazicili (talk) 21:04, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

If we want to shorten the lead, is this better? Now there are 4 paragraphs

Turkey, officially the Republic of Türkiye, is a country mainly located in Anatolia in West Asia, with a smaller part called East Thrace in Southeast Europe. It borders the Black Sea to the north; Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Iran to the east; Iraq, Syria, and the Mediterranean Sea to the south; and the Aegean Sea, Greece, and Bulgaria to the west. Turkey is home to over 85 million people; most are ethnic Turks, while ethnic Kurds are the largest ethnic minority. Officially a secular state, Turkey has a Muslim-majority population. Ankara is Turkey's capital and second-largest city, while Istanbul is its largest city and economic and financial center. Other major cities include İzmir, Bursa, and Antalya.

Turkey was first inhabited by modern humans during the Late Paleolithic. Home to important Neolithic sites like Göbekli Tepe and some of the earliest farming areas, present-day Turkey was inhabited by various ancient peoples. The Hattians were assimilated by the Anatolian peoples, such as the Hittites. Classical Anatolia transitioned into cultural Hellenization following the conquests of Alexander the Great; Hellenization continued during the Roman and Byzantine eras. The Seljuk Turks began migrating into Anatolia in the 11th century, starting the Turkification process. The Seljuk Sultanate of Rum ruled Anatolia until the Mongol invasion in 1243, when it disintegrated into Turkish principalities. Beginning in 1299, the Ottomans united the principalities and expanded; Mehmed II conquered Istanbul in 1453. During the reigns of Selim I and Suleiman the Magnificent, the Ottoman Empire became a global power. From 1789 onwards, the empire saw a major transformation and reforms while its territory declined.

In the 19th and early 20th centuries, persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction and in the Russian Empire resulted in large-scale loss of life and mass migration into modern-day Turkey from the Balkans, Caucasus, and Crimea. Under the control of the Three Pashas, the Ottoman Empire entered World War I in 1914, during which the Ottoman government committed massacres against its Christian subjects. Following Ottoman defeat, the Turkish War of Independence resulted in the abolition of the sultanate and the signing of the Treaty of Lausanne. The Republic was proclaimed on 29 October 1923, modelled on the reforms initiated by the country's first president, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. Turkey remained neutral during most of World War II. Coups in 1960 and 1980 interrupted the transition to a multi-party system.

Turkey is an upper-middle-income and emerging country; its economy is the world's 18th-largest by nominal and 11th-largest by PPP-adjusted GDP. It is a unitary presidential republic. Turkey is a founding member of the OECD, G20, and OTS. With a geopolitically significant location, Turkey is a regional power and a member of many regional and international organizations, including NATO. Turkey has coastal plains, a high central plateau, and various mountain ranges; its climate is temperate with harsher conditions in the interior. Home to three biodiversity hotspots, Turkey is prone to frequent earthquakes and is highly vulnerable to climate change. It is a leading TV content exporter. With 21 UNESCO World Heritage sites, 30 UNESCO intangible cultural heritage inscriptions, and a rich and diverse cuisine, Turkey is the fifth most visited country in the world. Youprayteas ^{talk/contribs} 16:00, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I was talking about the infobox. I'll trim the lead after I copy and paste the history parts into the lead of History of Turkey. The history part here is far better sourced than the lead of History of Turkey.

Youprayteas, if you want to change the controversial parts such as the genocides, you will need an WP:RfC with a proper Wikipedia:Closure requests. You are welcome to initiate RfCs.

Otherwise, even if you change and your version manages to stay for a week or two, it'd probably get reverted. Last time it was reverted [1][2]

For your version, I didn't like that the universal healthcare sentence was taken out. The lead doesn't have to be 4 paragraphs per MOS:LEADLENGTH Bogazicili (talk) 16:32, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Is the genocide worth mentioning? Japan's article doesn't mention them, why should ours? I'm not a denier or whatever, but I think that [11] edit you sent was a really good summary. the Ottomans are talked about too much. Youprayteas ^{talk/contribs} 17:17, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't know what you're trying to imply? Beshogur (talk) 19:13, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I was responding to Youprayteas about infobox expansion with the Seljuks. Bogazicili (talk) 20:00, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Citation style change - individually authored chapters

Based on the feedback I received at Wikipedia talk:Citing sources, I'll be adding citations for individually authored chapters in Turkey#Sources. Over the next several days or weeks, I'll also be fixing the references in the body of the article, changing the citations from overall volumes to specific chapters where applicable.

Going forward, all individually authored chapters should be included in the Sources section. When chapters have specific doi's, I'd also prefer {{doi}} template to be used. Bogazicili (talk) 21:20, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Can you give an example? Is this currently not being done? Moxy🍁 23:15, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I added pretty much all the sources in Turkey#Sources, if not literally all the sources. And I wasn't doing it. The book sources I added all have page numbers, so the information should be easy to verify. But going forward, I'll be adding chapters in this format with {{harvc}} [3], and changing the citations to chapters where applicable like this [4]. Sources like this [5] have individually authored chapters. Bogazicili (talk) 18:13, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Ohhh ...ok that makes sense. Should consider removing all the sources from the lead or at least Help:Citation merging to make the lead more accessible and readable. Moxy🍁 20:49, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I will get to merging sources in the lead after going over Turkey#Sources. But we need some sources in the lead as Turkey is subject to 3 contentious topics. It's better for article stability. Bogazicili (talk) 21:27, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Reclassifying the Government Type

As Turkey today has banned Discord, according to the Twitter post from Dexerto: https://x.com/dexerto/status/1843802360654794809?s=46&t=IxRiKqurHLT-SarW3PlrGw, two months after banning Roblox, according to this Twitter post from Roblox_RTC: https://x.com/roblox_rtc/status/1821216990805074226?s=46&t=IxRiKqurHLT-SarW3PlrGw, and so many other platforms, I think it’s time to reclassify the Turkish government as being an Authoritarian Dictatorship.

Other sources from which I found those news: https://www.reuters.com/technology/turkey-blocks-instant-messaging-platform-discord-2024-10-09/ https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/turkey-blocks-instant-messaging-platform-discord/ar-AA1rW3x3

This ban marks a significant violation of human rights and I think it’s about time to reclassify the government type of Turkey starting today, so that many people who are reading this post are aware of what Turkey has become. This is not how Ataturk envisioned it. GamesCell (talk) 06:19, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Banning messaging or gaming platforms does not make a country a dictatorship.

As a note, all the sources you linked but Reuters are not good news sources: dexerto (see WP:DEXERTO) and an unofficial roblox twitter account are not reliable sources for a decision of this importance. MSN is only a news aggregator and in this case is just the Reuters article (says "Story by Reuters" below the title), and does not serve as a self-standing source.

Also, the sources you link suggest that you think that Wikipedia community should make its own judgement on if Turkey is to be considered a dictatorship. This is not how Wikipedia operates, I suggest you read WP:NOR, specifically WP:SYNTH: as a summary, Wikipedia editors should not reach conclusions that derives on information, and should state the information as stated. Look at the sources in the Russia and Turkmenistan infoboxes for examples of what qualifies as a reliable external source stating that a country is a dictatorship or is authoritarian.

(Also about the last sentence: Please do not edit Wikipedia with your political views getting in the way, see WP:NPOV.) Aveaoz (talk) 09:24, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 October 2024

Before: Government: Unitary presidential republic

After: Government: Unitary presidential republic under an Authoritarian Dictatorship

Storyline: It's been one day since Turkey banned Discord, two months after banning Roblox and Instagram from their country's national internet. This ban wave marks a significant human rights abuse and I think the right thing to do so is to let others know the fact that the Turkish Government is now under an Authoritarian Dictatorship.

Here is a lot of evidence that would attest to the fact that Discord got banned in Turkey, together with Roblox and so many other platforms: Discord's Ban: https://x.com/dexerto/status/1843802360654794809?s=46&t=IxRiKqurHLT-SarW3PlrGw https://www.reuters.com/technology/turkey-blocks-instant-messaging-platform-discord-2024-10-09/ https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/turkey-blocks-instant-messaging-platform-discord/ar-AA1rW3x3

Roblox's Ban: https://x.com/roblox_rtc/status/1821216990805074226?s=46&t=IxRiKqurHLT-SarW3PlrGw https://www.yahoo.com/news/why-did-turkey-ban-roblox-131350229.html https://corp.roblox.com/newsroom/2024/08/update-on-the-roblox-ban-in-turkiye

Please take into consideration my proposal, so that many people are aware of what's going on in this country. Today, Roblox and Discord are banned. Tomorrow, the entire internet will be banned in Turkey if we don't let others know in time what their country has become. Also, this is not how Ataturk envisioned Turkey.

Thank you so much for your time and I hope I made it clear in this message. GamesCell (talk) 18:53, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

We'll do a little research see if I can find some academic sources..... request on hold. Moxy🍁 19:28, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Didn't know banning roblox was undemoratic. Beshogur (talk) 20:40, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Academic sources cover democratic backsliding. However international media has increasingly defined Turkey as authoritarian or at the very least a hybrid regime. Will try to consolidate the best sources to see what we can do..... As this is already sort of covered in the article. Moxy🍁 20:54, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I think we should prefer academic sources, WP:Secondary when possible. I'm concerned about Eurocentric or Western-centric bias if only English-language media such as The Economist are included. We actually have a Wiki article on this, Ideological_bias_on_Wikipedia#English_Wikipedia. Journalists are also not experts in these issues. These issues can be discussed more in depth in child articles with proper attribution, but we have limited space here. Bogazicili (talk) 21:04, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Looking at non-western ...most sources seem to be much harsher .... especially turkish academics.. Moxy🍁 21:33, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

A lot of those would be WP:Primary. Bogazicili (talk) 21:35, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

• We have hundreds of sources Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL.

I'm not opposed to adding something with WP:Secondary. I still haven't finished going over the Turkey#Human_rights. Maybe you can take a look and add a sentence or two when I'm done. It's in my to do list, after going over the sources. Or you can add something now. Bogazicili (talk) 21:40, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Despite its reputation there are positive developments in regards to human rights in Turkey in the past decade or so. Moxy🍁 21:45, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

The wording "under an authoritarian dictatorship" looks like OR anyway and is something that has unfortunately spread to many other articles. A presidential republic can be authoritarian or democratic; this is about the same as writing "under a democracy". IMO the level of democracy should either be omitted or written in a way that that has actually been used in other sources e.g. "presidential republic; authoritarian".[6] Mellk (talk) 07:33, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Presidential system is already authoritarian. Beshogur (talk) 11:24, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

In what way? Yes, it tends to have less restrictions on power especially with hyperpresidentialism, but I do not think we can call all states with presidential systems authoritarian regimes. Mellk (talk) 14:06, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

OR? easily souced Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL. What we need to do is explain why academics say this is happening and to what extent. Moxy🍁 16:57, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

I meant the exact phrasing. Is there any source that says something like "unitary presidential republic under a dictatorship" (that is not WP:CIRCULAR)? Mellk (talk) 13:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. M.Bitton (talk) 14:28, 12 October 2024 (UTC)