Talk:Thomas Thynne, Viscount Weymouth

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Harriet's background

There is plenty of confusing evidence.

Rev. George Robbins is well-documented, and he was brother of Mary or Maria Robbins (1806–1869), mentioned in Hesperia (poem), who married an Italian nobleman and became a Marchesa. He was about 12 years younger than Harriet, and could easily have been a nephew rather a brother - the evidence that he was a brother is not really secure, and Harriet might well have financed his Oxford education. There is a "William Robbins, Esq of West Bromwich" with two daughters and a son, but he is clearly not George's father.[1] Alumni Oxonienses may well be incorrect in the identification.

On http://www.florin.ms/ChapterF.html#inghirami I don't really believe the identification of the image claimed to be of Harriet: it seems just as likely to be of Harriet Baring who married Henry Thynne, 3rd Marquess of Bath, Thomas's younger brother, as stated on Jane Austen's World. The information on both those websites has to be taken with a pinch of salt.

@Billinghurst: Anything to add? This is a great Regency elopement story, but RS are rather lacking. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:53, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Marriage Bonds and Allegations. London, England:

Name: Harriett Matilda Robbins
Age: 21
Birth Year: abt 1799
Event Date: 10 May 1820
Parish: St Marylebone
County: Middlesex
Spouse's name: Thomas Thynne Esquire
Spouse's Age: 21
Spouse's Parish: Hanover Square, St George
Spouse's County: Middlesex
Event Type: Allegation
Reference Number: DL/A/D/008/MS10091/198

@Charles Matthews: Sparse amount of family history information for Harriet, so I will flick over to see what I can find for George. The family tree information is all focused on Thynne, with HM as adjunct and no parental information. It all mirrors the florin.ms link, and is what is in findagrave. I have three records for you, but I cannot find your email address at the minute, so can you email me and I will send them to you (will, marriage and licence). — billinghurst sDrewth 12:17, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Reverend George's family is not of London, is there evidence that they were? OXON says Worcestershire, Eton list says Southampton [2] — billinghurst sDrewth 12:34, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The Eton listing would be for s:Alumni Oxonienses: the Members of the University of Oxford, 1715-1886/Robbins, George (1), rather than George (2), though. Charles Matthews (talk) 14:01, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Debrett's is pretty stingy on her detail [3] which is not a good sign, you would expect something about her lineage. — billinghurst sDrewth 12:45, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: The note about children is of the marriage of William and Jane (née Blackmore), which research shows was 25 April 1801 in West Bromwich. So it is quite possible that they are half brother-sister, and if she is b. c. 1800 which would be an earlier marriage. The 1801 marriage licence cites William Robbins as being of St. Martin, Warwick, marriage status unknown. — billinghurst sDrewth 14:10, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Billinghurst: If the mother is Jane Blakemore, then time to revise what I said above. William Robbins will be the nail factor and merchant in business with John Partridge Blakemore, brother of Richard Blakemore and from an ironmaster family, Jane being their sister. It is most likely that Harriet was a foster child, and I guess Maria too. George can actually be the son mentioned in https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=YdIKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA107, though the two daughters mentioned do not match the Contessa and Marchesa. William and Jane were married by Luke Booker, so that although the background is Midlands commerce, there is no reason to rule out George having the connections to get him to Oxford. It may well be that Thomas Robbins was obscure, and had died by 1810. Best guesses right now. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:29, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Charles Matthews: I suspect that Jane is second wife of William Robbins, though not enough information to know. At the reported age of Harriet, most likely first wife died at or not long after childbirth and a quick remarriage. So if you mean that Jane fostered, then that is what I was intimating as the likelihood, and George is a half-brother. I can see the business partnership in a directory, though no other readily available information to determine genealogy. [In West Bromwich All Saints, I cannot see a female death in the right period, and I don't know the area to start prodding surrounding areas based on a surname alone.] If you can find some biographical information about William that would help … looking for age difference. Or knowing whether the business continued and maybe look for a will. — billinghurst sDrewth 09:21, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Billinghurst: What I said there was based on a London Gazette entry about the partnership being dissolved in 1828.[4] Charles Matthews (talk) 09:26, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Curiouser and curiouser

Harriet's death is a topic in a work by the psychic researcher Ernesto Bozzano, Guerre e Profezie (1948), of which there is an online PDF. George Robbins died in Florence on 9 February 1873.[5] Bozzano reports a seance at the house of Countess Enrichetta Bartolomei, wife of Signor Conte Tommaso Passerini on 12 March, at which his spirit spoke. The source is from 1874.[6]

The spirit self-described as "the brother of your deceased sister-in-law Countess Bartolomei", i.e. brother of Maria Robbins mentioned above. The reported conversation proceeded:

"Do you have anything to tell us?"
"I'll tell you that soon my sister, Countess Enrichetta Inghirami, will join me in the world of the spirits."
"Are you joking?"
"No, I tell the pure truth."
"Enrichetta Inghirami is elderly, it is true, but also robust, and it does not seem that she should leave so soon from this world."
"Yet I assure you that this year hse will join me."
"And can you tell me in what month her death will happen?"
"June."
"Can you also tell me the day she will be taken off?"
"Yes, on the 18th she will leave the earth."

So whatever doubts are entertained about the reported seance, the chances are that Bozzano had the family relationships accurate. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:16, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Another Enrichetta Inghirami, presumably

Enrichetta Inghirami, of the old Volterran family, married in 1827 Carlo Grabau, and they had a son Enrico known as an engineer.[7] This therefore is presumably not Harriet, though I think it is the right family. Grabau was from Hamburg. Marcello Inghirami Fei (Fei or Maffei being an addition to the surname, to honour an adoptive parent) was in the alabaster business, but left Tuscany when the French invaded in 1799. He went to Hamburg.

I think this disposes of the third marriage mentioned on Harriet's Find a Grave page.

Enrichetta Grabau has a Royal Academy page as dedicatee of a book by it:Francesco Inghirami.[8] Francesco was a brother of Marcello Inghirami Fei.[9]

Going back to Marcello, "Retiring to private life and financially ruined, he preferred to leave Italy and moved with his family to Hamburg where he resided for a few years: here his wife Maria Giuseppa di Sebastiano Riccobaldi Del Bava gave birth to four other children (including Niccolò, future consul of Austria in Livorno)." That's Google translate from http://www.inghirami.it/Famiglia/Personaggi.htm, section Lino Marcello INGHIRAMI FEI (1766-1841). I'm working on the theory that Harriet's second husband was a son of Marcello. Charles Matthews (talk) 16:42, 9 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So from [10] at p.8 we have "Cavalier Console Niccolò, ucciso in Livorno mentre trovavasi in compagnia del generale Austriaco Grennêville, Teresa ne’ Grilli, e Lidia, figli del Cav. Marcello" i.e "Cavalier Consul Niccolò, killed in Livorno while he was in the company of the Austrian general Grennêville, Teresa ne ’Grilli, and Lidia, children of the Cav. Marcello." Niccolò, Marcello's son, was notably murdered by assassins intending to kill Grennêville, for repressive acts decades earlier.

Going back to the Find A Grave page for Harriet, we have "Marcello Inghirami si trasferì così in Germania e mentre il suo figlio primogenito Sebastiano si stabilì definitivamente ad Amburgo, ove ebbe numerosa prole, Niccolò (che rimase sempre celibe) preferì ritornare in Italia e si stabilì a Livorno dove già viveva sua sorella Enrichetta sposata al console del regno di Hannover Carlo Grabau"; translating as "Marcello Inghirami thus moved to Germany and while his eldest son Sebastiano settled permanently in Hamburg, where he had numerous offspring, Niccolò (who remained always unmarried) preferred to return to Italy and settled in Livorno where his sister Enrichetta, who was married to the consul, already lived with Carlo Grabau of the kingdom of Hannover". NB the difference in the interpretation there, "From which we assume that she is his widowed sister-in-law, Enrichetta, now married to the Hanoverian Consul, so that he as Austrian Consul can live with them", for "sorella".

We are now counting four children of Marcello (Sebastiano, Niccolò, Teresa, and Lidia). Not therefore clear how Enrichetta relates to the rest of that family. Charles Matthews (talk) 21:05, 9 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.myheritage.com/names/lidia_inghirami does say Lidia was one of seven siblings. Charles Matthews (talk) 21:10, 9 November 2019 (UTC) On the other hand, it mentions another Enrichetta (died as an infant). There may actually be nothing much to the whole Find a Grave tale. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:22, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Probate

Calendar of the Grants ... > 1873 > vol. R-Sl > p.134 @Charles Matthews:

Countess INGHIRAMI heretofore Viscountess WEYMOUTH formerly ROBBINS > The Honourable Enrichetta right next to George Robbins in 1873.

and then under Inghirami ... https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Inghirami&yearOfDeath=1873&page=3#calendar

Noting that the executor is Leopold George Gordon Robbins. Research shows Leopold GG Robbins is recorded as being baptised in Leghorn, Tuscany, 24 Apr 1842 to George and Alice Dorothea Robbins. s:Alumni Oxonienses: the Members of the University of Oxford, 1715-1886/Robbins, Leopold George Gordon and s:Page:Men-at-the-Bar.djvu/430. SCORED! — billinghurst sDrewth 13:06, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]