Talk:Tantura massacre

Article

Took the initiative to create the article, but it needs desperate improvement as I only copied the content from the Tantura article. Too much attention is given to the controversy in Israeli scholarship circles but barely any on the actual massacre, which was reported and documented by several Arab writers and historians decades earlier. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:50, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

User:Makeandtoss: We should mention Nimr al-Khatib, who (according to Pappé) was the first to record the massacre. And possibly other Arab authers that Pappe didn't know about? Huldra (talk) 23:23, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Haaretz

I will appreciate if someone can email the Haaretz news-article to me. I have never edited IPA topics and do not plan to; mere personal curiosity. TIA. TrangaBellam (talk) 05:22, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

User:TrangaBellam; you can read it here, cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:03, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

WikiProject assessments for quality and importance

I have downgraded this article from B-class to C-class quality because the article appears to be mostly about an academic debate and court case over whether the event occurred or not. There is no coverage to really back up the introductory statement in the lead section. Indeed, the lead section presents new information that is not even explained in the article. I expect this article to tell me about the event in the title; Who was involved, What happened, When the event happened, Where it happened, Why it happened, and How it happened. I do not expect just to find a controversy about academic freedoms over reporting whether the event happened or not, because that is really a different article and should be under a different title. Wikipedia is not censored and what should be told is what Katz and the survivors alleged happened, what the Alexandroni veterans said and denied in response and a balance of views from all sides involved. I know it is a tall ask but I would like to see contemporary citations from the 1950's including good citations of the original books and papers that Katz, Galat, and Nimr al-Khatib and others might have published at the time these events occurred, rather than just a re-examination of the evidence and the controversy from 50 years later. Perhaps even C-class is generous of me, and this article might only be a Start-class article, but this assessment level does allow the B-class questions to be asked and answered in relevant WikiProjects. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 00:38, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

incidence

See Talk:Tantura#Occurrence. nableezy - 17:34, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Morris

This article relies heavily on Benny Morris's analysis to support the claims of a massacre. In fact, Morris's position is the opposite of what the article says. His position is that the Tantura massacre is a hoax. Dan Censor's web site has all the relevant material. https://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~censor/katz-directory/11-03-17the-liar-as-a-hero-about-pappe-by-benny-morris.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.234.50.77 (talk) 04:00, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

• I.e., Benny Morris, ‘The Liar as Hero ,’ The New Republic /Scholars for Peace in the Middle East March 17, 2011. Nishidani (talk) 11:45, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

  https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-10-07/ty-article-opinion/.highlight/the-tantura-myth-it-makes-no-sense-that-palestinian-villagers-never-mentioned-a-massacre/00000183-b2e5-d8cc-afc7-feedf6560000 165.85.58.43 (talk) 07:10, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 4 June 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved (non-admin closure) >>> Extorc.talk 06:35, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

---

Tantura massacre → Tantura controversy – No massacre has been confirmed. The recent Tantura film is presented as 100% confirming that a massacre happened, even though many of the veterans interviewed actually denied that there was a massacre. Academic Yoav Gelber, who was interviewed in the movie, said that the film was flawed None of the RS describe the film as "confirming" a massacre (nor does the film, which implies a massacre happened but never jumps to an explicit conclusion), meaning that such wording is WP:OR.

Please keep in mind that all of the article's content (except for the lede) is contained inside the "historiography" section, so "controversy" would probably be the better term.

I would also like to note that the exact figure of deaths is still controversial, which has been repeated again and again by RS. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 22:45, 4 June 2022 (UTC) Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 22:45, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

References

Oppose. Every massacre is denied by someone. That is insufficient reason to change the title. You are correct that the number of victims is uncertain, but that's a different issue. Zero^talk 01:57, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Oppose Nonsensical argument, trying to defend the perpetrators. Dimadick (talk) 05:28, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Not "trying to defend the perpetrators". Before this film came out Wikipedia portrayed what happened in Tantura as a matter of scholarly debate, and never explicitly said there was a massacre, just that some scholars argued there was while others didn't. Then a random movie was screened in January, and for some reason editors decided it was proof that there was a large-scale massacre (even though the film itself was criticized by scholars like Gelber). Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 13:53, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, but it was a dodgy debate, with a sound academic paper quashed under threat of legal action. It's a poster child for academic freedom issues. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:56, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Benny Morris said in his interview with Ari Shavit:

There is no unequivocal proof of a large-scale massacre at Tantura, but war crimes were perpetrated there.

Ih his review of Ilan Pappé, Efraim Karsh goes so far to call the massacre "Nonexistent". (I know Meforum isn;t the best source and I really don't like it, but it's by Efraim Karsh, who is a well-known scholar).

For a criticism of Ilan Pappé's work on Tantura see: Ben-Artzi (2011). "Out of (Academic) Focus: On Ilan Pappe, Out of the Frame: The Struggle for Academic Freedom in Israel". Israel Studies. 16 (2): 165. doi:10.2979/israelstudies.16.2.165. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 14:22, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

You can't take debate from before the published admissions as evidence after it. Zero^talk 14:54, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it is unclear to me if Benny Morris has actually voiced an opinion on the matter subsequent to the most recent testimony, but I think not. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:09, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

In any case, even if were not a massacre, a move to 'controversy' would still be imprecise. It is still an evidenced site of ethnic cleansing. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:12, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Oppose: Just seems like a shift from precision to vagueness. There is witness testimony of a massacre. The only real 'controversy' is over the extent of it. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:59, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

You can't confirm an event using only oral testimony. Not a single RS said that the movie meant the massacre was confirmed. Even the film itself said that they weren't completely certain there was a massacre. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 13:43, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

This is a seriously weird tree to be barking up. POV issues aside, I bring you 460 Google Scholar hits to 329 and one crushing ngrams defeat. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:52, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Lots of historical massacres are confirmed only by oral testimony. Here we have not just eye-witnesses but admissions of perpetrators. Zero^talk 14:56, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Oppose per above and hopefully a speedy close from an admin.★Trekker (talk) 11:36, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Oppose per above, can someone please close this, pr WP:SNOW? Huldra (talk) 22:22, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Date of thesis

Teddy Katz’s thesis was in 1998 not 1988. Shown in the documentary Tantura and quoted online. 24.138.73.66 (talk) 18:31, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Well spotted. Yep, that's fixed. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:24, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

The Israeli Defense Forces were not yet formed at the time of this event

Hence it would not be correct to refer to the brigade as being part of the IDF. 136.26.73.214 (talk) 10:01, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Alexandroni

@Levivich: Do we have sources explicitly saying Haganah? I think this is a minor technicality that is not supported by RS, given that Israel was declared on 14 May and the IDF supposedly officially on 26 May; this brief transition period is not given that much weight by RS, which call the perpetrator "Israeli forces". [1], [2]. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:08, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes:

Ref #1: "Tantura itself fell within the zone of operation of the Alexandroni Brigade, one of the erstwhile Haganah's six Khish (field force) brigades (to be distinguished from its strike force, the three Palmach brigades) ... The task of capturing Tantura was assigned to the Alexandroni Brigade's 33d Battalion."

Ref #10: "...on 22-23 May 1948, some 200 unarmed Tantura villagers, mostly young men, were shot dead after the village had surrendered following the onslaught of Haganah troops."

Ref #27: "A week later, on the night of 22-23 May 1948, Tantura was attacked and occupied by the Thirty-Third Battalion of the Alexandroni Brigade. The village leadership had previously refused to adhere to the surrender terms of the Haganah, which was in the process of being absorbed into the soon to be established Israeli army, and the village fell after an intense battle overnight." Levivich (talk) 14:19, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

@Levivich: It seems we have RS citing both Haganah and Israeli forces (given that Israel had been supposedly established on 14 May), so why not both? So I would suggestion something around: "massacred by Israel's Haganah, namely the Alexandroni Brigade" in the opening paragraph. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:29, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes that makes sense, the article should say "Israel" in the lead. Maybe also specify the 33rd Battalion? The article should be specific when saying who carried out a massacre. Maybe also it would be good to explain somehow what Haganah was and save the reader the click. Like "by the 33rd Battallion of the Alexandroni Brigade, part of the Haganah, Israel's army at the time" or "...part of Israel's Haganah, the precursor to the IDF" or something like that? My only concern is that we not say the Alexandroni Brigade was part of the IDF at the time. Levivich (talk) 17:16, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Let's keep it concise in the opening paragraph. This is valuable, to be elaborated elsewhere. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:29, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

"Mass graves in the State of Palestine" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Mass graves in the State of Palestine has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 July 1 § Mass graves in the State of Palestine until a consensus is reached. Walsh90210 (talk) 23:55, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

"Mass graves in Mandatory Palestine" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Mass graves in Mandatory Palestine has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 July 1 § Mass graves in Mandatory Palestine until a consensus is reached. Walsh90210 (talk) 23:56, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Alexandroni soliders and battle

According to the official website of the Alexandroni brigades and a tombstone placed in the area, 14 soliders of the brigades died in battle by sniper fire and more. The village was also used as a hub to smuggle weapons from Lebanon and a large number of its inhabitants were armed. Bar Harel (talk) 00:06, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Death toll

Anyone have any sources for the death toll estimates?

It seems this article's lower bound of 40 is erroneous and only based on the Khalidi/Khatib's description of "the methodical shooting and burial in a communal grave of some forty young men in Tantura village." However, Pappé 2006 writes in regards to executions that "These were not the only men executed. Before the selection and killing process took place on the coast, the occupying unit had gone on a killing spree inside the houses and in the streets." Though Pappé himself does not provide an estimate or range for deaths. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 02:59, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

The only RS estimates I've found so far are:

"In May 1948, more than 200 Palestinians were killed by the advancing Jewish militia in the coastal village of Tantura, south of Haifa." Pilger, John, New Statesman, 13647431, 6/3/2002, Vol. 131, Issue 4590[3]

"Ilan Pappé, who has documented in detail the massacre of some 200 men, women and children at Tantura on 22–23 May 1948" (Blackwell, Sue. "Review Essay: States of Denial." Holy Land Studies: A Multidisciplinary Journal, vol. 6 no. 1, 2007, p. 113-118. Project MUSE, https://dx.doi.org/10.1353/hls.2007.0016.) IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 03:57, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

"More than 200" according to Katz (per https://www.palestine-studies.org/en/node/41048) IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 04:10, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Morris 2004: "Dozens of villagers were killed. The initial report spoke of ‘300 adult male prisoners’ and ‘200 women and children’." IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 04:18, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

"the number of villagers who were shot to death can’t be established. The numbers arising from the testimonies range from a handful who were killed, to many dozens. According to one testimony, provided by a resident of Zichron Yaakov who helped bury the victims, the number of dead exceeded 200, though this high figure does not have corroboration." Adam Raz, Haaretz[4] IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 04:25, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

"There also remains a mass grave. [...] It reportedly contains between a few dozens to more than 200 buried corpses of Palestinian men who were massacred"[5] IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 04:34, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

IM

The Israeli miltiary supposedly should have been formed by 14 May so the Alexandroni Brigade was part of that and not part of the Haganah. This is also supported by RS. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:52, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Bias

Israel-Palestine articles never fail to surprise me with their bias. The existence of a massacare is highly controversial in historiography. The article misrepresents Morris' (the leading 1948 historian) position: hes main claim is that the evidence for massacare is not sufficent. 2A02:14F:17D:FDEB:0:0:4C8D:9D25 (talk) 09:14, 30 November 2024 (UTC)