Talk:Tamara Milashkina/GA1

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Nominator: Gerda Arendt (talk · contribs) 17:34, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Viriditas (talk · contribs) 19:55, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Reply

Thank you for the review! I nominated her because of the Women in Green drive. I will be out all day tomorrow, singing and opera, - please don't feel ignored. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:55, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

There's no rush. It will take me at least another day to finish. Viriditas (talk) 21:56, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Very general reply: I was busy elsewhere on Wikipedia, and more so in real life, travelling and being with friends. I ha da chance to look only now, and am very impressed by what you found on top what's already there. I have two problems: I have no access to Grove, and I don't know Russian. Details below. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:14, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Not a problem. I will request the Grove source to see if there's anything usable, but it's not a big deal, so don't worry about it for now. I think you misunderstood my concern about ru. It's not that you have to know Russian, but if you use the in-browser translation (or however you use your translation tools, Firefox does it automatically in my browser for me), you can easily see the missing material. Viriditas (talk) 21:21, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Of course, if you like, I could make a detailed listing of this material to help you. At the very least, translate Grosheva (1983) to your preferred language of choice and make your way through the material. Viriditas (talk) 21:23, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

That's very generous. English preferred to not run into another translation problem. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:54, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

I've been adding the relevant parts of Grosheva 1983 to this review below. Viriditas (talk) 20:13, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I added from Grosheva to the article, seeing that you seem not to be afraid of "promotional" writing. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:57, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Notes

• Images: I love the images, but they appear unusually grainy on both my mobile and my desktop. There's a G'MIC-Qt plug-in that might fix this in GIMP, but it's been a while since I used it and I can't remember the name of the appropriate filter. Viriditas (talk) 21:23, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

  I just took a look at some of the images I used the filter on in the past. It doesn't remove the graininess but rather sharpens it, making it more focused. Viriditas (talk) 21:34, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

  An additional image on ru is available.[1] Caption: "Tamara Milashkina in the party of Fevronia (in the center) in the play The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevroniya. Bolshoi Theatre, 1 December 1959". Viriditas (talk) 03:18, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

  I looked at that image, and she is a small face in a crowd, not identified in the commos description. Would it really help? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:10, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

  Probably not, but I did add it to the Commons category. Viriditas (talk) 00:45, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

• Critical commentary: There's a dearth of critical commentary in both the body and the lead. I thought this was somewhat odd and unusual given the notability and status of the subject. Viriditas (talk) 21:26, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
  • See below. The Ralph Moore source provides additional critical commentary that could be used.[2] Viriditas (talk) 21:54, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
  • There's some interesting critical commentary available elsewhere. For example: Vasta 2002 talks about how Milashkina's voice fits into a Russian tradition of interpreting Verdi: "As for the dramatic sopranos--for our survey, none of the stereotypical edgy, wobbling variety--their timbral pattern follows not that of the mezzos, as one might expect, but that of the low male voices: the voice anchored as if at a low fundamental, supporting a rich low range and a dark, vibrant undertone elsewhere. Listen to Galina Vishnevskaya's luscious voicings of the Aida arias, or her Bolshoi colleague Tamara Milashkina's creamy singing of two of Desdemona's set pieces. Even the Moldovan soprano Maria Bieshu's large, narrow instrument "sits" on the middle As in the Don Carlo aria with a solid foundation." American Record Guide's Richard Sininger, in a 2016 review of the 1974 Tosca recording describes Milashkina as a "big voice with a mezzo quality—somewhat typically Russian—and a secure, if not totally beautiful, top. At first her voice seems a bit monochromatic, but she delivers a good ‘Vissi d’Arte’ and sounds as if she acts well." A lot of the sources repeatedly describe her voice as "creamy". Osborne 2000 talks about the stultifying impact of the Soviet Union on the arts, and notes how Milashkina manages to stand out: "Because of the encapsulation of Soviet musical life, performance traditions froze. One of the fascinations of the era's recordings lies in the sense that one is listening to a Russian gloss on a style whose aesthetics had already faded elsewhere. With respect to the voices themselves, there is a rough correspondence to the historical progression seen across the past century in the West (a gradual erosion of technical command and interpretive individuality), but with a time lag and some interesting differences in how voices "set" within each category...For several decades, Russian singing methods seem to have worked out least well with high voices of the dramatic sort. The women tend to sound edgy and bumpy, the men steely and driven. Of the postwar spinto sopranos, Natalya Rozhdestvenskaya (Natalya in The Oprichnik, Fevronia in Kitezh) shows the most complete command, and Yevgenia Smolenskaya (Lisa in Queen of Spades, Militrissa in Tsar Saltan and the Yaroslavna of my ASCH Igor) settles into a surprisingly fine Ortrud. They are both stylistically authoritative artists, but the rounder, warmer timbres of later singers (Tamara Milashkina, then Guleghina and Gorchakova) probably will please more listeners." (Osborne, C. L. (October 2000). "Russians in Amber. Opera News, 65(4), 54.) I only bring this up because of what I write below about her personal life, which dovetails with her larger experience as an artist in the Soviet Union. Also, Marina Mescheriakova: "Mescheriakova reveres her famous Bolshoi predecessors on the basis of their reputations. "Vishnevskaya was already gone when I arrived, and so was [Tamara] Milashkina. But I knew some things about them. When I was a child studying piano, maybe five years old, I heard a recording of Milashkina. It made a big impression. Beautiful sounds, beautiful meanings. I liked it because she was a singer with a dark color. When I began to sing, I did not imitate her, but I thought her voice was very close to mine." Viriditas (talk) 23:39, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

I'll copy the comment to reply to the different topics:

• Vasta 2002 talks about how Milashkina's voice fits into a Russian tradition of interpreting Verdi: "As for the dramatic sopranos--for our survey, none of the stereotypical edgy, wobbling variety--their timbral pattern follows not that of the mezzos, as one might expect, but that of the low male voices: the voice anchored as if at a low fundamental, supporting a rich low range and a dark, vibrant undertone elsewhere. Listen to Galina Vishnevskaya's luscious voicings of the Aida arias, or her Bolshoi colleague Tamara Milashkina's creamy singing of two of Desdemona's set pieces. Even the Moldovan soprano Maria Bieshu's large, narrow instrument "sits" on the middle As in the Don Carlo aria with a solid foundation."(Vasta, S. F. (July 2002). "From Russia con amore: the sound of Verdi, Russian style". Opera News, 67 (1), 40+.)

  I'd have no idea what to get from that.

• American Record Guide's Richard Sininger, in a 2016 review of the 1974 Tosca recording describes Milashkina as a "big voice with a mezzo quality—somewhat typically Russian—and a secure, if not totally beautiful, top. At first her voice seems a bit monochromatic, but she delivers a good ‘Vissi d’Arte’ and sounds as if she acts well." (Sininger, Richard (Jan/Feb 2016). "Puccini: Tosca". American Record Guide. 79 (1): 151.)

  That's all not very specific, or what do you think?

  The point here, is that multiple sources discuss the difference that Russian opera singers bring to the table, primarily because of the isolation of the Soviet Union and the techniques of the opera schools. This is what the author means by "typically Russian", which is discussed elsewhere here. For me, the question I had was, what makes Milashkina different from other singers in her class and why. I find it quite fascinating to explore the reasons. Viriditas (talk) 21:48, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

• A lot of the sources repeatedly describe her voice as "creamy".

  see above.

• Osborne 2000 talks about the stultifying impact of the Soviet Union on the arts, and notes how Milashkina manages to stand out: "Because of the encapsulation of Soviet musical life, performance traditions froze. One of the fascinations of the era's recordings lies in the sense that one is listening to a Russian gloss on a style whose aesthetics had already faded elsewhere. With respect to the voices themselves, there is a rough correspondence to the historical progression seen across the past century in the West (a gradual erosion of technical command and interpretive individuality), but with a time lag and some interesting differences in how voices "set" within each category...For several decades, Russian singing methods seem to have worked out least well with high voices of the dramatic sort. The women tend to sound edgy and bumpy, the men steely and driven. Of the postwar spinto sopranos, Natalya Rozhdestvenskaya (Natalya in The Oprichnik, Fevronia in Kitezh) shows the most complete command, and Yevgenia Smolenskaya (Lisa in Queen of Spades, Militrissa in Tsar Saltan and the Yaroslavna of my ASCH Igor) settles into a surprisingly fine Ortrud. They are both stylistically authoritative artists, but the rounder, warmer timbres of later singers (Tamara Milashkina, then Guleghina and Gorchakova) probably will please more listeners."

  I wouldn't know how much of the "typical Russian sound" the article should mention if she is described as of the "more pleasing kind.

  Resource exchange just sent me the Grove Online article. It says "She has a voice of distinctive timbre and unusual warmth and beauty; reserve and emotional depth combine to lend her stage portrayals particular sensitivity." (I.M. Yampol′sky 1992) Viriditas (talk) 00:47, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  I'll get that in, and read further, whenI'll have time, which may be tomorrow. You should be a conom, and we let some else review, ow is that? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:58, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  Added, please check. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:58, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

  To answer your previous question about what "creamy" means in this context, I believe it refers in part to this description. Viriditas (talk) 02:20, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

• Also, Marina Mescheriakova: "Mescheriakova reveres her famous Bolshoi predecessors on the basis of their reputations. "Vishnevskaya was already gone when I arrived, and so was [Tamara] Milashkina. But I knew some things about them. When I was a child studying piano, maybe five years old, I heard a recording of Milashkina. It made a big impression. Beautiful sounds, beautiful meanings. I liked it because she was a singer with a dark color. When I began to sing, I did not imitate her, but I thought her voice was very close to mine."<ref>Bernheimer, M. (July 2002). "Marina Fortuna: the meaty Verdi soprano roles have been a string of good-luck charms for Marina Mescheriakova". Opera News.

  Sounds very personal to me, and rather general, no? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:40, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

  The point was that Milashkina has had a measurable impact on others, in this example, Marina Mescheriakova. Viriditas (talk) 21:44, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

  taken now, thank you --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:22, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

  Just adding this here: A French newspaper review of her 1970 Bolshoi tour compared her voice to Victoria de los Ángeles, but noted Milashkina differed from De los Ángeles with her "more luxurious, warmer, more trembling" voice. (Grosheva). Cited as E. Grosheva. "Tamara Milashkina". Singers of the Bolshoi Theatre of the USSR. Eleven portraits. Up to you whether to you use it or not, but if fits nicely in the section you created. Viriditas (talk) 19:46, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Sections

• Life and career: She first worked as a librarian. This is fine, but it is slightly different than Sie ergriff zunächst den Beruf einer Bibliothekarin, in the sense that she had initially planned for a career or a profession as a librarian, which is quite different than just "working". American comedian Chris Rock has a famous routine where he riffs on the difference between having a "job" (working) and a "career", which came to mind when I read this. I'm not asking you to make any changes but to think about it. Viriditas (talk) 22:08, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

  Looking closer at this, ru.wikipedia.org suggests she studied library science (or whatever it was called then), in her home town. Do we know if this is the case or if she ever worked as a librarian? Viriditas (talk) 03:33, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

  I thought I have to use a slightly different wording than the source, or someone would say copyvio. I see that there could be a translation mistake involved, but don't see how I could know exactly what the original meaning was. That's moe or less what I meant saying that I don't know Russian. Sure, I can translate using a program, but feel insecure about judging if I can trust the result. For French or Spanish, I could, but not Russian.

  As you are likely aware, there are sources that note how far Tamara had to travel from her home town to study music in Moscow (1400 km), which must have been difficult for her, as she had to leave everything behind. I suspect there's an incredible story there, and I think she talks about it in some interviews, but I couldn't access it. Viriditas (talk) 21:23, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, I'm aware, but should not invent a story. We recently had a DYK about a baritone who ran away from home, likely happy to leave it behind. Too tired for more, sorry, and tomorrow will be another day of travel. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:06, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

  • In the third paragraph, you discuss her notable tours, but she was apparently touring the US in the mid-1960s, perhaps as early as 1965. There is mention of a US tour of The Queen of Spades around this time. This document[3] is surprising to me. I was unaware that the Americans and Russians had so many tours in each respective country in the mid-1960s. As far as I can tell, she appeared in a production in the US separate from the Bolshoi? Viriditas (talk) 01:36, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

    Looking deeper into this, the only thing I can find is that she appeared at an "International Festival of the Arts" which I believe refers to "The World Festival of Art and Entertainment" at Expo 67 in Montreal, Quebec, Canada, where she performed in The Queen of Spades.[4] Viriditas (talk) 01:45, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

• There is additional information available about her family upbringing that takes the form of an interview in a work named "Bulgaria", but I cannot access it. Viriditas (talk) 01:48, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
• There's probably enough said about her Tosca, but I found this somewhat interesting: "The Vienna critic called Milashkin from the first of her performances in Austria - the beautiful Tamara and the Russian Italian."[5] That's quite a compliment. Viriditas (talk) 20:17, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
• Galina Vishnevskaya makes brief mention of a 16-year rivalry between her and Tamara.[6] It's pretty catty and full of career climbing and jealousy, but I thought I would note it here in case you wanted to use it. Viriditas (talk) 20:30, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

• Recordings: In 1979 she recorded Eugene Onegin, with Yuri Mazurok in the title role and again Atlantov and Ermler; a reviewer wrote that she was "clearly an intelligent artist and compensates for her occasional lack of vocal allure by her identification with a role which suits her voice type". I think it's important to represent the quote as accurately as possible. The source notes that "She was" is part of it. One way to fix this is to change it to a reviewer wrote that "[she] was clearly an intelligent artist..." And if Ralph Moore is indeed the reviewer, you should probably name him. Viriditas (talk) 21:49, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

  I usually quote reviewers by name when they have an article, giving weight to what they write. What would a simplename add? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:41, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

  You can do it however you want. It's just attribution style. Viriditas (talk) 19:48, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

• Personal life: This section is quite sparse for such a famous person. It is not clear, for example, if Milashkina was a dissident like Galina Vishnevskaya. Both of them were awarded the People's Artist of the USSR. Does the article mention any of her other awards? Salazar 2024 in Opera Wire says there were many.[7] Viriditas (talk) 23:57, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

  I see Glinka State Prize in infobox. Viriditas (talk) 01:14, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

  I now notice that all of her awards are listed at ru.[8] Viriditas (talk) 03:12, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

  And at fr.wikipedia.org. Viriditas (talk) 03:30, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

  but - see Questions below - without a reference --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:41, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

  I am getting to it. Thank you. Viriditas (talk) 19:46, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

• References: "Tamara Milashkina". The Free Dictionary. 13 September 1934. This is actually a copy of an entry from The Great Soviet Encyclopedia. Should be cited like this (or your preferred format): "Tamara Milashkina". (n.d.) The Great Soviet Encyclopedia, 3rd Edition. (1970-1979). Retrieved June 22 2024. Viriditas (talk) 02:32, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

  I fixed this. I also removed the link to "Embassy of the Union of the Soviet Socialist Republics in the USA". Viriditas (talk) 02:37, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

  fr.wikipedia.org cites Grove which could be helpful here: I.M. Yampolysky, "Milashkina, Tamara (Andreyevna)", in Grove Music Online, Oxford University Press, 1992/2002.

  taken now, thank you --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:22, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

• There are now two new sources since her death: [9][10] Some highlights:

  She studied at Astrakhan Library College

  After leaving the [Bolshoi?] moved to Austria in 1989.

  She will be buried in Vienna, in a Russian cemetery

  People's Artist of the USSR (1973); Orders of Lenin (1976); Red Banner of Labor (1971); Laureate of the State Prize of the RSFSR; M. And I. Glinka (1978)

  Mentions the documentary "The Wizard from the City of Keitezh" (1966)

  Most of this is now in, but not the cemetery because it is "will be". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:22, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

References

Criteria

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it well written?

   A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

   B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:

2. Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?

   A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

   B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose):

   C. It contains no original research:

   D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:

   No copyright or plagiarism detected.

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

   Minor issues noted above. For reference, ru.wikipedia.org has unique info that does not appear here.

   B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):

4. Is it neutral?

   It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:

   No neutrality issues detected.

5. Is it stable?

   It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:

6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

   Minor issues for nominator to review listed in order of importance:

   1) The idea that Milashkina "first worked as a librarian" is unclear, and may be a translation error. It appears she attended and graduated from a library college program. I do not see any indication that she worked as a librarian. Let's try to get this right.

   2) Other wikis have more information about the topic that does not appear here. For example, the entries at ru and fr. Fr uses the Grove Music source that should probably be looked at. Ru also has an image that isn't used here and goes into greater critical detail that could be used here (easily because it cites English language sources).

   I tried to find those sources in English, but found none, also found that several sources couldn't be found any more. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:17, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

   3) We don't see the listing of all the awards and honors here like we do on ru and fr.

   see below: not without references --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:47, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

   See above for new reference to the material. Viriditas (talk) 22:08, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

   4) The Ru article is quite comprehensive and has a wealth of material, from discography to critical commentary from her peers, a filmography, and much more. I would like to see some effort to broaden the coverage here. The bio by Grosheva (1983) is probably a good place to start, as it is comprehensive up to 1983 and is three pages long.[11]. At best, just take a look and see if you can find anything to add. My guess is that there's a lot to do, even it means adding just appendices.

   This bio was published by the Bolshoi theatre, - did you see in recent DYK discussions that what Oper Frankfurt and Staatstheater Wiesbaden publish about their singers and stage directors was marked as "promotional", and use of it as reference as an ethical problem? Taking to External links. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:47, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

On hold. Viriditas (talk) 09:54, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Good work, Gerda. I am passing this article. Viriditas (talk) 22:25, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Questions

The Russian Wikipedia has lists of awards, roles, recordings and films, but I can't detect references for them.

Example: Awards

• All-Union Vocalists Competition (1957, first prize and gold medal)
• International competition within the framework of the VI World Festival of Youth and Students in Moscow (1957, first prize)
• Honoured Artist of the RSFSR (1965)
• People's Artist of the RSFSR (1968)
• People's Artist of the USSR (1973)
• Glinka State Prize of the RSFSR (1978) - for her performance as Dona Anna in the opera The Stone Guest by A. S. Dargomyzhsky
• Order of Lenin (1976)
• Order of the Red Banner of Labour (1971) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:24, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Just published:[12] Viriditas (talk) 21:07, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the find, that's great to have, also for other details, even if I'm afraid it's more or less a mirror of the ru Wikipedia. Will add after my morning round - in memory of Leoš Janáček and Kafka, going to upload pics of the latter - and today's RD article. Anything like it about films? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:07, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I moved the awards to the article, but the ref is good only for most, not all entries, - leaving some without. I also used the ref for other details. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:41, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

That's fine. The article looks great. Are we done, or do you want to do some more work? Viriditas (talk) 22:09, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

How do you feel about moving "Awards" to the bottom, after "Recordings"? Viriditas (talk) 22:10, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I think it's probably fine. I will pass now. Viriditas (talk) 22:23, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.