Talk:Summer 2012 Damascus clashes

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result was merge into 2011–2012 Damascus clashes. EllsworthSK (talk) 13:43, 23 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We have enough WP:CFORK as it is, we do not need make article about every month of the campaign in the exactly same territory. That results in load of articles which can be easily summed in one. Later I shall propose the same to Homs, Idlib and other articles. EllsworthSK (talk) 00:28, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Strong support per nom. I really don't see the point of forking out this article from the main one on the Damascus clashes. Highly unnecessary. EkoGraf (talk) 01:25, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

~~Strong oppose~~ - as creator. I don't see any reason for creating never ending timeline articles. The first phase of clashes ended with the cease fire and another one started with the collapse of the cease fire.Greyshark09 (talk) 06:25, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Let's be realistic, there wasn't much of an end or pause in the clashes and you will not find any source confirming that, on the contrary most sources state the cease-fire didn't do much except maybe effect a slow-down in fighting in some areas but the clashes were always constant. EkoGraf (talk) 06:50, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is true, that the phases in Damascus & Rif Dimashq are somehow a challenge to separate (i think it is practically impossible in the case of the Siege of Homs city, as you have also proposed). However, on the other side we have the unbearable situation of a timeline article for each governorate in Syria, for violence which doubtfully will end any time soon. We can eventually deal with "2011-2013 Damascus clashes" and even "2011-2014 Damascus clashes", will it make any sense and help the wikipedia users? It is also does hardly have any prescedent in wikipedia to separate a conflict into purely geographic subsections. The alternative is to separate this into distinct phases which do exist in the entire conflict, and more importantly avoid "Governorate timeline" articles, unless we are speaking in wide scale offensives, such as the April 2012 Idlib Governorate operation.Greyshark09 (talk) 08:08, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nope. They´ll end when they end, whether it take a one more year or a decade is something we can´t do nothing about. So yeah, if battles will continue until 2018, the name should be 2011-2018. Not editors fault that nether side cannot take control over the area. Problem is that this is assymetric warfare, not frontline like in Libya where, for example, one side held Brega, other side attacked and by the end of the fay one won. Than for few months city was under complete control of the other side and than the first one attacked again and again. Anyways, why have summer, spring, winter etc. Damascus clashes? What differs between them? It is not like they stopped, SANA was reporting casualties in Rif Dimashq all year long, several generals ended with bullets in their heads, troops were and are dying there and rebel activity was present. And as I wrote in nomination, this looks to me like WP:CFORK EllsworthSK (talk) 18:26, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Second thought, i'm neutral on this one (notability issues) - i don't mind to merge.Greyshark09 (talk) 22:19, 21 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support - There were few hours of shooting, like some opposition diversion, no big scale operation for another article.--Vojvodae please be free to write :) 08:20, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, the assault in Damascus neighbourhoods on July 14-16 was described as the most serious fighting in the area since the beginning of the uprising - see comment below.Greyshark09 (talk) 15:34, 16 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Strong support - Per Nominator. - Goltak talk 14:50, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support - What differs between them? It is not like they stopped Superzohar Talk 02:00, 16 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - i would like to draw everybody's attention to the current reports of most severe fighting between FSA and regular Syrian Army in the vicinity of Damascus, described as "unprescedented" by the media. Quote: In the biggest armored deployment in Damascus in the 17-month uprising against President Bashar al-Assad, infantry fighting vehicles took positions along the main thoroughfares of Midan, a strategic Sunni Muslim neighborhood, as rebels withdrew to alleyways and sporadic fighting was reported, they said. (Alarabiya - July 16 [1]). Further more, Alarabiya describes that fighting resumed on Monday in the region between al-Mazza and Kafr Sousa in Damascus, "after heavy clashes in the capital left scores of people killed on Sunday".

Al-Jazeera published that "Damascus struck by 'most intense' clashes yet" [2]. Quote:Heavy clashes between rebels and regular troops have erupted in Damascus in the "most intense" fighting in the capital since the start of the anti-regime revolt in Syria 16 months ago, a monitoring group has said..

There are more notions, lile the BBC - "Second Day of Fierce Damascus clashes" [3]. In any case, the media relates to the events of violence and the scale of Syrian Army deployment as unprescedented, compared with previous sporadic clashes.Greyshark09 (talk) 15:34, 16 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

They say all that every time there are clashes in Damascus. And I mean literally. Every time there are clashes in Damascus they call them the fiercest yet, so this is nothing new. EkoGraf (talk) 17:10, 16 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

True as it is, this time they are probably right. It is first time there are clashes in inner Damascus, previously clashes were concentrated on the suburbs. Guardian [4] says that fighting broke out in Jobar suburb, but also district of Midan, Kafr Souseh, Nahr Aisheh and Yarmouk Palestinian refugee camp, all within city limits. EllsworthSK (talk) 20:52, 16 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We will see by tomorrow, still doesn't change the fact this specific article should be merged back to the 2011-2012 Damascus clashes. If what is at the moment happening grows that would warrant a sub-article creating for the 2011-2012 Damascus clashes. Something called like Battle of Midan or something like that (since they are mostly citing Midan in the news). EkoGraf (talk) 22:18, 16 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, according to a rebel, what is happening at the moment is a raid (incursion) into the capital like before. And this time around seems the military is got the upper hand because the same rebel who is in the field says they are surrounded and can't retreat from the capital like before. Source here [5]. Maybe call this event the Damascus raid? Regardless, this article still merges back. XD EkoGraf (talk) 00:23, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Do they? I only came across claim in which they dubbed it as operation Damascus volcano with their intentions being "liberate" whole Damascus. According to NOW Lebanon, FSA spokesman claims that they have taken control over Al-Maydan district (probably al-Midan) [6]. But as I suggested on my talk page, we should probably wait till things stabilize and than figure out whether it was raid, battle or not important to have its own article. EllsworthSK (talk) 00:33, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here you go. The source [7]. Quoting it for you from a rebel himself. A fighter told Reuters rebels could not retreat after a few hours of fighting, as they had in previous incursions into the capital, because they were surrounded by security forces and checkpoints. As far as I know incursions in military terms are called raids. Anyway, I have abandoned the term raid since it has escalated into a full-on battle. EkoGraf (talk) 03:35, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

these fightings are different — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.0.208.70 (talk) 02:44, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support — It's best to keep information as centralized as possible unless certain details are so prolix as to merit their own article (assuming it is not merely an excessively elongated section to begin with). This specific facet of the situation in Damascus would be covered just fine on the main article. Master&Expert (Talk) 05:21, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support- I don't see a lot of good reasons to have the two articles separated. Merging will definitely reduce confusion and improve organization.---- Futuretrillionaire (talk) 17:27, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

merge with Battle of Damascus

Someone set up a page Battle of Damascus (2012) which covers the same events, this should also be merged, can someone else do this, I don't know how. - 86.42.245.86 (talk) 00:01, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No it can't. This article here is covering the fighting in the wider Damascus countryside governorate, the fighting in the capital is only a small part of it. This article here covers the period since early June, more than a month ago. Also, you can't initiate a merger proposal while another one is already being discussed, read above. We are discussing to merge this article back into the article on the November 2011-May 2012 Damascus governorate clashes after an editor branched it off.EkoGraf (talk) 03:31, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]