Talk:Sophomore

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This article was previously nominated for deletion. The result of the discussion was keep.

Changing Sophomore to a dab page

Hi SilkTork, why did you change Sophomore to a dab page? I believe that sophomore should have remained as it was before your edits, as a student in their second year of study is the primary topic for this term. I came upon this as I noticed that hundreds of pages linking there are now linking to a dab page. Also notifying User:BD2412, who tagged the dab page with {{dabconcept}}. Thanks, Natg 19 (talk) 19:34, 16 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Which second year do you feel is primary? The previous article page mentioned two possible years, and that is what the current dab page also indicates, along with other possible search results. The essential information hasn't changed. If you feel that one use of sophomore is more primary than the other, then we could direct sophomore to that article, and place a hatnote to direct to the dab page. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 22:34, 16 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, I agree that neither of them would be considered primary, but what was wrong with the article as it existed before your edits? Is there a reason that you converted the page into a dab page? Natg 19 (talk) 22:53, 16 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The previous page was doing a dictionary definition of the term, and then trying to write an article on the two main terms. We prefer articles on one topic. Where there are two or more possible topics we create a dab page. Second year at high school is different to second year at university - this is not the same topic, nor part of a broad concept (there isn't one unified concept there are two: "stages in education" and "second" - we could do a broad concept article on sophomore as meaning second (such as second album for a musician or second film for a director), or on stages in education in America) - but it would be difficult to do a broad concept album on all the possible meanings of sophomore (in the UK education system it can mean third year at university, and sometimes - though rarely - the fourth year), but it seemed more appropriate to create a dab, especially as the article also engaged in some original research regarding the etymology and unsourced (and apparently incorrect) assertion of the use in other countries. I started to clean it up, but realised it made more sense to dab it: that would make the term clearer for readers, and allow them to go quickly to which topic they were looking for. So, as it now stands, readers get a quick definition of the term - it may mean second year in High School or second year in university in America, and a link to the nearest available article on those topics. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 23:14, 16 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sophomore

(Copied from User talk:BD2412:)

I don't want to jump in on this without bouncing it off someone and thought you would be a good person to check with.

There are currently articles for both Junior (education) and Senior (education).

Right now, Sophomore (education) gets redirected back to Sophomore.

The articles for Junior and Senior, as it relates to education are a little thin, but could at least be used as a starting place for h articles to go to clear the disambiguation.

This is just my opinion on things.

Ulric1313 (talk) 05:40, 15 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Ulric1313:, I have noticed that, and also that College freshman, College sophomore, High school freshman, and High school sophomore point in different directions (while Freshman is its own article), all of which is odd. I would definitely prefer some greater Uniformity of purpose. bd2412 T 12:08, 15 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Which is the primary topic for sophomore - Tenth grade - the second year of High School in the American education system, or Sophomore year - the second year of higher education in the American education system? The Sophomore page previously mentioned both high school and higher education in America. I couldn't work out which term, the second year at university or the second year at high school was the primary term, which is why I made a dab page. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 22:54, 16 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that the proposition is that there is a general meaning of "Sophomore" meaning the second year in a program, comparable to the existing Freshman. bd2412 T 23:04, 16 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Is "Sophomore" a topic for which we have sources as a topic, or is it a dictionary definition? What I have seen is dictionary definitions of the term rather than discussions on the term as a single concept. "Second year in a program" is an interesting idea, especially as there is some use of the term sophomore to mean second album or second film, but I'm not sure it's a concept sustainable as an article. That concept is perhaps more related to oeuvre. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 23:23, 16 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The two discussions above both highlight confusion (at least for me) in the article referred to: "a student in the second year of study at high school or university." As a UK reader, here High School (secondary school, pre-18) is completely different to University, post 18. It may be obvious to other non-UK readers that Sophomore can refer to both but I think someone familiar with the USA educational system could add clarity to the article on this point. I recommend a link to the topic on second year at University as it relates to the US, but probably not to merge the articles unless a search for one will find the other as well. Kironreid (talk) 14:01, 25 June 2015 (UTC) Kiron Reid[reply]

ORIGIN of"more":Old English māra, of Germanic origin; related to Dutch meer and German mehr. The word sophomore is evidently, not a compound Greek word at all but rather Greeklish. Sophos is the masculine noun form that means "wise", sophi - feminine noun form and the plural neutral noun form, and sophia / sofia means "wisdom" - neutral noun form. So sophomore really just means "wiser"; "wiser even", "even wiser", "wiser more" "even more wise". If "more" were derived from "moro" for baby; it would have an "o" at the end like: sophomoro, or end with "r"; if it didn't end with an "e" but instead with "o" or "r", then even if it were nonsense, it would be hard to debate. However, everything needs to be verifiable so. Just because the internet has nonsense doesn't mean we cite it as if... Also "fool" is "anóitos" in Greek, so cross checking is another way to verify what is or is not when fact/citation checking. Furthermore, if Greeks want to tease, make fun, or embarrass someone for acting wise, then we might say "sophopedo"- "pedo" from pedi which is child. Greek people don't have the mentality to make fun of someone attending school by calling them a fool. It's not our sense of humor. It sounds Old English style or German for sure, right. I am Greek, fluent, have lived, worked, studied at university there and I learned ancient Greek, too - there is no such word, nor do Greeks compound words unless we want to compare or indicate something is bigger, better, most or the exact opposite. I realized it immediately after reading, correcting over and over, I thought these citations are not scholarly. The only proof is the citation I've included here and this little tidbit that flagged me: generally, Greek words begin with epsilon, but do not end in "'e'psilon" unless it is pronounced short "e", which is rare, and it's definitely never silent. I always check twice at minimum, so the first thing I did was google exactly: "'more' used in ancient Greece Greek" and nothing fruitful came up of course, but I still verified, and second was exactly: "origin of 'more'". We really need to do our due diligence when transferring knowledge. I hope we can cite according to guidelines instead of just whatever. It's important to check the target twice and the source twice; if the source appears opinionated or "personally" defined, then it does not belong here. I sure hope this helps. AMLBaker (talk) 18:34, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Derivation separate from use

Two sections, High School and College.

The term is derived from ...

Why is this buried in High School? It should be at top (maybe bottom), not inside one of the use-cases.

PRR (talk) 20:44, 27 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Confusion about 'second year'

Article states correctly 'student in the second year of study at high school or college', and it is clear with careful reading that it means 'either high school OR college', but omits crucial information for non-americans: second year of how many? Is it final year of high school? is it last but one, i.e. second of three? Or are there more versions, depending? Plz do not forget that there is more English-as-second-language speakers and even more readers than there is native English speakers in US of A, to whom this article seems to be targeted. But again, they might not need this information, being already familiar with terminology, so actual target group is the whole wide world... :) BirgittaMTh (talk) 08:30, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In the US, a student is generally in high school for 4 years, 9th through 12th grades. Thus, a freshman is in 9th grade, a sophomore in 10th grade, a junior in 11th grade, and a senior in 12th grade. Sometimes (more common in the past than today), 9th grade will instead be grouped with 7th and 8th grades as a "junior high school" with 10th through 12th grades being "senior high school". In senior high schools, 10th graders are freshman but the terms for 11th and 12th grade are still junior and senior. Note that a student of exceptional ability may "skip" one or more grades, but these ARE exceptions to the 4 year "rule". As for college and university students, these terms are really only used for bachelor's degree programs. These programs are also generally considered to be 4 years in duration (though more and more programs actually take longer, at least if one does not attend summer classes). --Khajidha (talk) 12:32, 30 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There are also English as first language speakers outside the USA (waves from England). 2.98.102.170 (talk) 15:39, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Little more than an American dictionary definition

As it stands this seems to be nothing more than a dictionary definition - not an article worthy of an encyclopedia! It is also very American in it's point of view. Although the word sophomore may exist in British English, it is not in common usage. In fact I don't think I have ever heard it used once in conversation with anyone in the UK (apart from Americans) in my many decades. 2.29.246.5 (talk) 09:40, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]