Talk:Sony's Spider-Man Universe

Related films

@DisneyMetalhead: Would you agree we should have a related films section making mention of the SSU cameos in Spider-Man: No Way Home (2021) and Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse (2023), the latter establishing the world of the SSU as Earth-688? Envoyjuaner (talk) 19:09, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

A related films section has been reverted in the past as it has just been a table without much new information added that is not already covered elsewhere in the article. Such a table is not needed. I am working on adding what is true on the SSU and Spider-Verse connections to this article with adequate sourcing. Trailblazer101 (talk) 19:49, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

I know. I disagree, and am opening a dialogue here on the talk. Envoyjuaner (talk) 19:55, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

In what ways would such a table provide any useful details to this article specifically that is not already covered. On one end, it can be misleading to have another table of films as some readers could interpret those as being part of the franchise when they are not. Please see discussions on this in the archives, such as Talk:Sony's Spider-Man Universe/Archive 1#Related films and Talk:Sony's Spider-Man Universe/Archive 1#Related..."media"(?) vs Related films, where it was determined prose is sufficient to explain these details as is already done throughout the article and would be unneeded repetition. Including every single film with Spider-Man (Maguire, Garfield, and Holland) is unneeded repetitio of Spider-Man in film, and Garfield and Maguire are not connected to the SSU directly. A section just discussing the NWH and Across connections is already established at the MCU and Spider-Verse connections header in the article. Trailblazer101 (talk) 20:15, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Really just to discuss the multiverse cameos — in particular Mrs. Chen in Across the Spider-Verse. Envoyjuaner (talk) 20:20, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

I have noted that in the MCU and SV connections header here with my most recent edit, where other cameos in NWH, LTBC, and Morbius are already noted. Trailblazer101 (talk) 20:24, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

@EnvoyJuaner: I would agree that a "related films" section would indeed be constructive. It isn't "misleading" as User:Trailblazer101 stated, as this can be clarified in pros/paragraph form beforehand. A film table would show similar details to what is shown on the films section above (i.e.: film title, release date, director(s), writers, and producers) and only continue to build what the Sony studio is doing per the sources I added before... MULTIVERSE. To not include the films on this article would be a disservice to the SSU as a whole.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 02:45, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

As has been said multiple times on this, the information on the multiverse connections is already included in this article. Including a table of films with information already given at each film's article is not necessary here, and I have yet to see any new points that prove otherwise to overrule prior consensus on this. This article is only for what is in Sony's shared universe, not for everything connected to the multiverse of Spider characters. That's why Spider-Man in film exists, and it would be unneeded repetition of the table there. Multiverse connections can be noted at that article if not already done so adequately. Trailblazer101 (talk) 02:54, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

And as I have stated multiple times, what makes the information of the mutilversal connections not noteworthy enough to include additional details, here? They are all connected through the multiverse. I'm not necessarily stating that they need to have a film table, although it gives the average reader a detailed overall insight to the connections. What is obvious however, is that the section detailing the multiverse needs to be expanded to include more details.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 23:58, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

@Trailblazer101: similar to my other comments, it's worth noting that you didn't response to my comments here from June 2023 as well. A section detailing the related films, as the Sony's Spider-Man Universe does connect to various other franchises -- would be helpful, and it wouldn't be "misleading" if in pros of the section it was detailed how they are connected (i.e.: through the multiverse which is a large part of all of Sony's Spider-Verse franchises).--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 00:07, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

I have been busy with a lot of things since then, on and off wiki, and you could have also rejuvenated this conversation once it went stale. Timing besides the point, it is not up to a sole individual to restart a discussion, and no one is obligated or mandated to respond (this is not a court proceeding). It would be unnecessary to implement a random wikitable at the bottom of the article when the films relevant to this franchise are already explained in detail where it is necessary. There is consensus not to include such a table in this article anymore, with the consensus established here. I don't see that changing anytime soon with very limited support for including it anymore. Trailblazer101 (talk) 23:44, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

DisneyMetalhead, silence is the weakest form of consensus. InfiniteNexus (talk) 04:01, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't see any need for a "related films" section. Toa Nidhiki05 15:23, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

@Trailblazer101, InfiniteNexus, and Toa Nidhiki05: my intentions in reopening this discussion are entirely constructive, and based within the WP:BOLD outline. There are multiple connections between all of Sony's Spider-Man projects (both visible on screen, as well as behind the scenes). Mentioning these facts in pros (as has been done with the MCU details) is helpful, though it is still missing the previous Sony Spider-Man movies, and the Spider-Verse cartoon film series as well. The connections between the Spider-Verse, the various Spider-Man movies, and the spin-off villain movies are all noteworthy. My argument is that this article should explain how they are related. Once Sony is finished making any MCU films (which they were indeed doing for a time, before a new deal was sorted out), these connections will also no doubt be more greatly emphasized. As-is, I reiterate the connections should all be addressed in some for or another.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 06:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

My stance on the matter hasn’t changed. Any future connections can be addressed on a case-by-case basis. Toa Nidhiki05 07:17, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

My points still stand and nothing has eventuated to lead me to believe such a section is warranted when we already detail the actual connections elsewhere in this article. As Toa suggested, any connections to other media can be discussed when it is applicable and/or appropriate. Trailblazer101 (talk) 15:39, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Peter Parker credit

There is currently 2 listings of Peter Parker in the cast table. I have tried a couple of times to move the uncredited infant actor from Madame Web to be in line with the MCU Peter Parker, but it gets reverted. The argument has been that they're different multiverse versions of the character, which could very easily be explained through an efn. While the word "variant" is an MCU word, this franchise is indeed tangentially connected to the MCU (not to mention the Spider-Man film series, The Amazing Spider-Man films, and the Spider-Verse movies). A simple resolution would be for the note to state that the infant is (at least as far as we know) an alternate universe version of Peter Parker.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 16:42, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Maybe if it gets reverted more than once, there is an actual reason, no? As I have explained in my reverts, the infant seen in Madame Web is not confirmed to be the same as Tom Holland's Spider-Man from the MCU, and is clearly not from the MCU. Putting the two together would be misleading and factually incorrect. Especially since the infant is not even credited or named in the film, I do not think we should be putting so much emphasis and WP:UNDUEWEIGHT on this with such an explanation. Also, the term "variant" has not been used to describe anything in Sony's films, which is what this article should go off of. This article is not for the MCU and we should not try to connect things that are not directly one and the same. Even at the MCU articles, when a new actual variant is introduced, those cast lists display the variant separately anyway, so keeping the MCU version and the very brief Madame Web infant separate is actually correct from a real-world perspective. We do not know that the infant is an alternate version of the MCU Parker, which is what you are implying here, and that is not confirmed regardless. Trailblazer101 (talk) 06:50, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Is the Sonyverse ending, or not?

Is the article from The Wrap a credible source, or not?

If it is, this entire article needs an overhaul to reflect that Kraven the Hunter is the final Sonyverse movie (ie that the Spider-Man Noir TV show, and any other post-Kraven projects, aren't happening), and that the Sonyverse is over. Agustinaldo (talk) 21:59, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

TheWrap is a reliable source, yes, although the exact nature of what is being reported is being blown out of proportion. The article (non-paywalled archive) notes that the franchise being completely over is not actually confirmed or certain, stating "The apparent end of Sony’s Marvel spinoff franchise", "For Sony, the future appears to lie in projects more directly connected to Spider-Man himself. “They’ve developed what they want to develop for now,” a top talent agent told TheWrap. “It’s really about the next ‘Spider-Man’ film.”", and "the studio is now focusing its efforts on Holland’s highly anticipated fourth “Spider-Man” film, the next installment in the acclaimed “Spider-Verse” animated film series with “Beyond the Spider-Verse” and a “Spider-Noir” television series featuring Nicolas Cage — projects that lean into, rather than away from, the web-slinger’s central appeal." None of these definitively say that the shared universe has been concluded, ended, canceled, or shelved, just that Sony is not proactively moving forward with anything else other than the specific three projects called out right now. We may need to wait for official confirmation of the franchise's ultimate fate, but simply noting that the studio is now only focusing on those three projects over others for the shared universe should suffice. Trailblazer101 (talk) 22:26, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

That still means the article needs an overhaul. In its current state, it mentions a lot of post-Kraven stuff other than the Spider-Man Noir TV show (the El Muerto movie, the Hypno Hustler movie, the Aunt May movie, Silk: Spider Society, Silver and Black, the Sinister Six team-up movie...) Agustinaldo (talk) 22:33, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

None of those projects should be removed or altered because as far as we know, they still had been in development and this report does not confirm they specifically have been shelved. Trailblazer101 (talk) 23:41, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Spider-Noir seems not to fit in this article anymore as it is not part of SSU, rather a spinoff from Into the Spider-Verse movies series. Syed Ahmed Qasim (talk) 09:26, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Source? Just because Nicolas Cage is playing Spider-Man Noir again does not automatically mean it is a Spider-Verse spin-off. Rather, the sources dispel that notion. Trailblazer101 (talk) 16:28, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I would agree with this, but I imagine sources won't have definite statements about Spider-Noir being in the SSU, a spin-off of the spider-verse films, or just its own thing until closer to the series release. Seems likely however that it won't be needed in this article when that time comes. Yeoutie (talk) 16:46, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Sources in the Spider-Noir article literally confirm it is in Sony's shared universe, primarily this ref citing a statement directly from a Sony executive discussing this fact. It does not matter what some may think when sources confirm what is actually intended for it. TheWrap's article in no way changes what has previously been confirmed. Trailblazer101 (talk) 16:49, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I dunno...several youtube videos are reporting on the Sonyverse ending, several reddit threads are reporting on the Sonyverse ending...if it walks like a cat and meows like a cat, it's a cat. Seems to be that this site is going against the flow and stubbornly refusing to accept that this is the end of the Sonyverse. Agustinaldo (talk) 09:34, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, but all of them use TheWrap as source which doesn't explicitly report that Sony's Spider-Man Universe is ending as @Trailblazer101 explained before. Anyway, until Spider-Noir series isn't ended or officially considered out of SSU, I doubt that we can consider it "ended". Tizio Incognito (talk) 14:06, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

If reliable sources say it’s ending, we should report that. Toa Nidhiki05 20:45, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I think that also "Other series in development" should be renamed to "Formally planned series". Tizio Incognito (talk) 08:35, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

 Done I renamed the section.

Tizio Incognito (talk) 15:03, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

https://variety.com/2024/film/news/kraven-sony-marvel-movies-not-dead-1236249221/ But there is also this that Sony Spider-Man universe on variety that aren’t dead after all, which is all a trick and a scam 69.159.140.126 (talk) 04:33, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Variety is a very reputable source, and they are basically saying in this article that the notion this pseudo franchise is officially over is just not true and, as I said already, was blown out of proportion. This article just affirms that Sony still intends to make more content with its Spidey rights, which it continues to own, mind you. Trailblazer101 (talk) 06:04, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't believe Variety's claims in the paragraph that goes "there never really was a Sony Marvel Universe, or a Sony Spider-Man Universe, or any other official designation akin to the Marvel Cinematic Universe or the newly relaunched DC Universe" because of this, and the fact that Venom 2 and Morbius tie in to the MCU, albeit crudely. The only thing I get clearly is that Sony wants to exploit Spiderman-related IP, not caring about continuity or shared universes. Kailash29792 (talk) 19:35, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

You disagree with "there never really was a Sony Marvel Universe" but then you say "Sony wants to exploit [...] not caring about continuity or shared universes" which is functionally the same thing, this whole discussion an argument on a technicality.

This loose franchise or phase might be over (you might call that "final" but it is subjective and we cannot even say for sure) but also there will inevitably be something else coming because Sony is obviously going to keep doing what it needs to keep the rights ever reverting back to Disney Marvel. It is better to entirely avoid contentious claims about things being "final" when that remains unprovable. -- 109.78.197.162 (talk) 03:29, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

It does not matter what our opinions of these news articles are. It is our duty as editors to this encyclopedia to address what all reliable sources state, which follows WP:Verifiability, not truth. We could take the Variety article's words at face value and debate about it all day long, but it does not disregard what the report contextualizes which is that there is not and has not been a solidified plan for an extended shared universe of Spider-Man characters, just that Sony has and will continue to make films based on the properties related to Spider-Man they have access to, even if it won't be similar to all of these spin-off character titles that they have been making. If you don't believe what Variety says, that is completely acceptable, but we cannot let our personal opinions get in the way from reporting on and addressing the facts and reliable reports. Trailblazer101 (talk) 04:04, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't necessarily disagree with the other editors here. It's just that Variety's aforementioned quote is hilariously inconsistent with this source (already used) where it says Sony revealed that their collection of Spider-Man-inspired films would be called "Sony's Spider-Man Universe.", as noted here. But having understood Sony's true intentions (that they'll continue exploiting Spidey-related IP for different continuities, with SSU still denoting the label name rather than shared world), I'll leave it at that. Kailash29792 (talk) 05:19, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

This universe is over after Kraven. Spider-Noir is not a part of it

Spider-Noir will be in its own universe, disconnected from these films. Including it in this article seems unnecessary & confusing. Kraven will be the final installment in this universe (for now) 47.219.220.57 (talk) 09:55, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source that supports it? Tizio Incognito (talk) 15:00, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

That's what I was saying in the thread above: this whole thing has very heavy DCEU/Dark Universe vibes. Which is to say, the Sonyverse is unlikely to continue. But this site refuses to accept and still insists that all the post-Kraven, post-Spider-Noir projects are happening. Agustinaldo (talk) 17:59, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

It's been added the specification that they were in development. Tizio Incognito (talk) 18:11, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough (I missed that when I last checked the page), but I agree with other users that Spider-Noir is either a Spider-Verse show, or its own thing. I don't think it's a Sonyverse show, so I don't think it should be on this page. Agustinaldo (talk) 18:42, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

It does not matter what you think it is. We have a source from a Sony executive (via this article) confirming it is part of Sony's shared universe and not a Spider-Verse show (those films are animated anyway). We are not going to change the facts presented in these articles just because you disagree with them. TheWrap article does not say that Spider-Noir is not part of the franchise, nor does it definitively confirm Kraven is the last project in it, either. Trailblazer101 (talk) 20:05, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

https://variety.com/2024/film/news/kraven-sony-marvel-movies-not-dead-1236249221/ But this happened 69.159.140.126 (talk) 05:04, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

See my response about this in the discussion above. Trailblazer101 (talk) 06:05, 14 December 2024 (UTC)