Talk:Simon Ekpa

Biafra Referendum

For the interested, there is a new related article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:18, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Biafra Referendum. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:11, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Template:POV

@Chipmunkdavis, hi. Per the spirit of Template:POV, it would be helpful if you state your concerns here on the talkpage, the more specific the better. And, you know, edit. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:21, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi Gråbergs Gråa Sång, the article has a few related problems. This starts from the lead, where the "Biafra Republic Government in Exile" is presented as a separate institution the subject became the leader of rather than something the subject invented. Saying it has a "military wing" is a real stretch, let alone two. The presentation of Biafra is unusual, we don't include statements like "(Formerly part of Biafra)" in most infoboxes. The subject is not known for "Biafra restoration", Biafra has not been 'restored'. Opponent "The Nigerian state" is also odd. In the body, the main issue is with the "Activism and separatism". It is an overload of excessive detail. As a start, anywhere using quotes should be seriously looked at. I unfortunately do not have the time at the moment to really delve into the sources, but the issues are apparently in the article text. Aside from POV, it's also weird that an AI-generated image is being presented as "Ekpa in 2023". CMD (talk) 13:23, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

@Chipmunkdavis Interesting, didn't notice there are 2 military wings there now, that wasn't the case before. The photo has a wearisome history on WP/Commons (some of it:[1][2], some people have told me I AGF too much), fwiw this one is Commons-approved, I have no opinion on if it's AI. We'll see what happens. The lead used to say "an organization he founded"[3].

I know there are a lot of quotes (I've inserted several), and I'm not saying it's not excessive. But the thing is that a lot of the reporting is X said/Y said. Some paid coverage have appeared. And of course [4]. Ping @Yann and @JFHJr if you feel like getting involved. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:20, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

I can't trace which blocked account uploaded which deleted picture, but the current picture is an AI image. On the quotes, some might be useful, but there's a lot even outside of the quotes such as "In May 2024, Ekpa urged the Nigerian government to engage the Finnish government to mediate in the conflict between BLA and the Nigerian army" which really feel like pro-forma press release stuff. I am not familiar enough with the various sources used to work through what has weight and what is recycled press release. CMD (talk) 14:31, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, stuff like that and "Ekpa sent a letter" can probably be trimmed. That he says something doesn't mean it should be in the article, "Ekpa on Ekpa" is not the goal. That's what he has Twitter for. And, apparently, some Nigerian newspapers, my guess is that he gets the clicks. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:36, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Well, it does provide itself a context in the frame of: Finland is relevant to the article's subject and both Ekpa and Nigeria have tried to coax Finland into joining their gripe. Finland doesn't seem interested though. That sad state for both sides takes one paragraph in this very long biography. It's okay with me re weight. If it's not with you, remove it and I'll probably be okay with that too. I don't have a strong opinion about this, but it could probably stand. JFHJr (㊟) 03:25, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

It would have greater weight if Finland made a public reply, but it's not glaringly awful content. With the African Court on Human and Peoples' Rights thing the court said, "yes, we've seen that message", which some people found very exiting, but it's not that weighty either IMO, though I'm ok with it being in the article. If they make some sort of ruling on it, that will be more interesting. And then there was the "The US Justice Department supports me!" thing. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:11, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

From the source it doesn't seem the Finland government was contacted at this point, BRGIE sent the message to the Nigerian government. The paragraph structure implies that the later Nigerian government responses were due to this message, but the sources link it instead to the general pattern of social media posts and/or sponsoring criminal activity (and previous similar responses are also included in the article). The paragraph works without the statement, and would not risk implying that connection.

Other quotes which could probably be summarised are "we also wish to officially announce an alliance and activation of Biafra Government In Exile (BGIE) with the IPOB-Autopilot" (him announcing his two organisations are linked), "Biafra Republic Government In-Exile is registered, approved and legal. Agent of Nigeria, take note!" (especially that second sentence), "double agents sponsored by the Nigerian government to ridicule the IPOB movement" (speculative BLP about Ekpa that doesn't seem to add, and this one also leaves unaddressed who the remaining IPOB is), "Be it as it may, Ekpa is now at least the prime minister by some" (essentially stating he has some supporters), "When [Ekpa] gives instructions, destruction follows. They cause killing, maiming, fires, whatever...In the South-east, Simon Ekpa has become a menace to this country. The country must act on it diplomatically. [Ekpa] is having a freeway because [Finland] are encouraging him to do what he is doing. His utterances and actions are affecting what is happening in Nigeria" (easily summarised as accusations he is linked to some violent actions), "He should stop inciting hatred and provoking. Ekpa does not represent the Igbo people of Finland" (already covered in an earlier paragraph too), and "the BRGIE referendum further consolidated the self-determination pursuit of the people of Biafra amid decades of alleged marginalization by the Nigerian government" (a reasonably pro forma statement of support given the aim of the group).

There are a few other quotes, but they are both shorter and seem like those where the exact words are important. Aside from these, is there a need to attribute Yle inline so many times? CMD (talk) 09:00, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

@CMD, I think you're right. The article needs condensing. Inline Yle sentences should be removed of unnecessary attribution to put the article's subject in focus as the subject and topic as much as possible. Instances of multiple single-use refs to support a single claim can even be combined with one ref markup containing multiple cite news templates. The result would be a smoother ref section below. Wish I had the time now myself. JFHJr (㊟) 03:19, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

On my image point however, it's been pointed out to me that the image is used by the individual as their twitter image. So, assuming that twitter account is actually them, it doesn't seem a BLP risk for use here. CMD (talk) 16:42, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

As I understand it, the Ekpa/IPOB position is basically "I took them over/Nuh-huh". I do consider the quotes of minister/general to have extra weight. People have been adding more cites for a long time, and it's possible there is some overlap by now, especially when some editors don't re-use cites. On the whole, my view is that Yle is a quality source here, and quite useful in the WP-context. He's Finnish citizen after all. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:55, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Noting that Commons:Deletion requests/File:Simon Ekpa portrait, 2023.jpg has been closed. I'm not sure I think the article-banner on this is necessary/helpful. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:12, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

More importantly, the file itself has been tagged. That said, I haven't seen Template:Upscaled images before. Is it meant to stay until there is a non-AI image? The tag says "The manual of style for images recommends that such images be replaced with their original historical versions", but we can't get the original here as it is the manipulated image itself which is VRTed. CMD (talk) 07:20, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm removing it, tagging the file seems more reasonable. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:30, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

MOS:IMAGES does also say that If an AI-upscaled image is used in an article, this fact should be noted in its caption, although that's perhaps more important for historical posters and newsprint than what's essentially an airbrushed publicity shot here. Belbury (talk) 08:15, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Didn't know that. The Commons-discussion seemed split on if this was AI or not, but add something if you think it fits. I sort of expect pics like these to be manipulated in some way today. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:31, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

@Chipmunkdavis This is annoying, but in 2022 he talked about "Biafra Government In Exile (BGIE)" (no "republic"). It's possible he changed his mind/postponed a bit because there already was a BGIE [5] (and I hope you've seen Life of Brian). My reading is that the 2023 "Biafra Republic Government In-Exile is registered, approved and legal. Agent of Nigeria, take note!" was the start of his own org. Related discussion at Talk:Simon_Ekpa#New_WP:EDITWAR.

Oh, I just noted that BGIE:s PM was Udeh Christian-Iwuagwu.[6] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:14, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I've tweaked to note both names. I added 2022 for context, but if you think mentioning only 2023 would be clearer I have no objections. CMD (talk) 09:30, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I can live with it.

The "He is the leader ("Prime Minister")" wording was inserted by @JFHJr here [7] following this discussion: Talk:Simon_Ekpa/Archive_2#Editwar_on_WP:LEAD_"self-declared"_again and it has held until now.

What I like about that wording is that we don't have to pick a PM-caveat for the WP:LEAD. ("Prime Minister") says "that's what his org calls him" (to me anyway), and there has been some major disagreement on that. Partly with editors who are blocked now, but still. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:52, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I did not understand that implication when I read it. I reinserted with the word "titled", how does that fit the previous consensus? CMD (talk) 10:18, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Works for me. But don't try to put it in the infobox. Or short description. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:28, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Reverted

@Reading Beans: You reverted! The content relates to Ekpa when Biafra Republic Government in Exile was mentioned on Daily post and Daily Times ref and even on Vanguard.

I ask, is Ekpa and the Biafra Republic Government in Exile different stuffs? Is there any other Biafra Republic Government in Exile and one is disassociated with Ekpa? The content is related in context. If we don't add the content under Simon Ekpa article page, where else would it be accurately added if not here? The Biafra Republic Government in Exile does not have a page yet. Wår (talk) 07:18, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

@War Term, we are not supposed to add everything that Ekpa says. We are an encyclopaedia but this does not mean we should add everything that is true or “said” by the subject. As a matter of fact, looking thru the activism and separatism section, I think it needs to be trimmed down and summarised—because that is what an encyclopaedia is for. If you want to track his activities, his social media handle is doing that just fine. Best, Reading Beans 07:43, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Have you read through the sources? Ekpa wasn't mentioned but another name from the organization, Joy Irobi. I haven't seen Ekpa on sources used. It's diversified reportage. This isn't another "Ekpa says" stuff. Cross-check please. Wår (talk) 18:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

@Reading Beans

I used this reference for the build up of the content. Not "Ekpa says" stuff

Cheers. Wår (talk) 18:27, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Wår, I still maintain that the addition was not useful. What is it summarising? This page is about Ekpa and not about Joy Irobi or what BRIGE said about her. You just said exactly my point. It’s not needed here. Best, Reading Beans 19:07, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

@Reading Beans

Okay. Better. How about his Biafran Liberation Army recently talked about by the Nigerian Army? Sources are 1. 2. and 3..

Are they useful to be added? I'm curious to know because you may revert the additions shortly if add them. Wår (talk) 01:07, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

@Wår, what encyclopaedic value would this add? There are a lot of calls to condemn him from different people that are already in the article. Do you think we need more? It’s not like you need my permission to add any content; I’m just trying to get the point of the content. Understand what I mean, no? Best, Reading Beans 03:57, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Dear @Reading Beans

I quite understand your gesture. I see you were the one who created the page and you would do everything to protect it against vandals. I also do protect all the article pages created by me.

Can we add all the condemnations in chronological order? I mean creating a sub section for them. (All the condemnations are useleful especially ones coming from his opponent, the Nigerian government) I don't wish to edit the article directly again to avoid them being reverted. Reverting of a Wikipedia user account contributions is not a good reputation and you know it. The system records the 'reverts' and documents negative signals that editors contributions are either disruptive editing or vandalism. I am still building my user account and don't wish for any bad repute. I am afraid to add anything to the article page again. I think you are in the best position to do that.

Best, Wår (talk) 08:30, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

First things first, I don’t think you are a vandal nor am I claiming ownership of the article. FWIW, majority of the texts there now are not mine as I’ve not edited the article in a while and as a collaborative project, you are welcome to contribute.

I got the idea of assembling these things in a chronological order but then, this is a biography of a living person (BLP) and we wouldn’t want to stick all-and-sundry here. Chronological orders are usually used in articles about wars or conflicts but using such style in a BLP is extremely rare. If there are other examples of pages using this style, please, link them for assessment.

This ofcourse is just my neutral opinion. You can go ahead and add if no one object within 24-hours; this doesn’t mean that I have agreed to this, I just don’t have an opinion about it.

Thank you for all you do. Ochiwar used to do something like this some years back. Your contributions are immeasurable. Best, Reading Beans 08:56, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

I am not interested to add it again per your comments. But, TBH, that section needs to be reshuffled. I leave it like that because it is BLP.

Again, what do you think here? Have you noticed that section Simon_Ekpa#Activism and separatism is way too big and contents there do vary from BRGIE stuffs to BLA and to condemnations to now his intended declaration in December 2024. Have you thought about creating a different section to differentiate things there and probably bring about some clarity of context? That will will help in not muddling context. Wår (talk) 09:51, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

@Wår, you mean adding more sections and not sub-sections to this article? No. That hasn’t crossed my mind but if you think it is needed, potestis facere!. Best, Reading Beans 05:37, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Fyi

Fyi, Ekpa is in prison for reasons already mentioned in the article. The charge is related to terrorism. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 12:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

References

Good to "see" you! Is KRP National Bureau of Investigation (Finland)? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:35, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, Keskusrikospoliisi (KRP) / Centralkriminalpolisen (CKP). A ruling that came today where Ekpa failed to gain release from prison. The Police has been interrogating him for the past two weeks and KRP frozen his and 'others', including his associations and companys funds. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 14:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

WP:NEWSORGNIGERIA

Recent RSP addition, for the interested. It was inspired by Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Nigerian_newspapers. WP:N is not in question for this article, but there is a bit of "Ekpa tweeted it, so they printed it" use of sources. Though I think this press is not necessarily "paid" per NEWSORGNIGERIA, just "he gets the clicks." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:09, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Many of the tweets around this topic is filled with subtle manipulation, like re-attributing speeches of people. Sources with heavy reliance on Social Media should be avoided imo. News containing social media posts in itself isn't bad if it's combined with journalistic work as well. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 11:14, 27 December 2024 (UTC)