Talk:Saito (disambiguation)

Comments

Why are there two separate to the Japanese language page? Someone who can read Japanese should resolve this.

The links are to the two most common ways of writing the name. While in English we usually make a single page for, say, Hannah and Hanna, on Japanese Wikipedia it seems to be common to have seperate pages for each of the frequently used writings of a name, since they're not considered the "same" name to the degree that different spellings are in English. (Or to compare it in a different way, John and the male use of Jean are distinct names despite being connected.)

I don't see a disambiguation page for all the ways of writing Saitou on Japanese Wikipedia, so I think the way things stand is probably for the best. Normad Zeta 00:00, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Japanese surname

This page begins with

Saitō (usually 斉藤 or 斎藤, but other forms are common) is the seventeenth most common Japanese surname[...]

and then goes on to list Saitō, Saito, and even Saitou. The only Japanese name here is Saitō. Saito is not a Japanese name, although it may (or may not) be etymologically related. Saitou is nothing more than a non-standard romanization. The claim regarding the Japanese name needs to be restated or removed. Or maybe even better all of the Saitōs could be moved to Saitō. Bendono 06:36, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Providing dictionary entries

Contributors are encouraged to go to Wiktionary.org to provide further detail on Japanese names that are romanized as Saito, Saitō. --Bxj (talk) 15:03, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Suggested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: withdrawn by nominator. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:51, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

---

} Saito → Saitō – WP:MOSJ. It seems like every one of the items on this disambig page are Japanese, and with one exception (a small city in Miyazaki) all of them are actually pronounced Saitō. While some of the items currently have no macron in their article titles, MOSJ has us default to Hepburn spelling in cases like this. We drop the macron in articles on individual people only if they don't use it themselves, but as the title for a disambig page we should use the standard spelling. elvenscout742 (talk) 04:03, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

(The first line of the page should read "Saitō or Saito may refer to:") elvenscout742 (talk) 04:05, 18 January 2013 (UTC))

Withdrawn I misunderstood the policy on this area. I don't agree with it in this case, but rules are rules. elvenscout742 (talk) 07:55, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Oppose - yet another foolish piece of time wasting. JoshuSasori (talk) 04:17, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Please stop making ad hominem attacks. You expressed a neutral opinion on a very similar proposal a few days ago, so why has your opinion changed? elvenscout742 (talk) 04:22, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose some of these entries are spelled in English (official translations, common translations, English versions) as "Saito", therefore the disambigation page should use the more generalized form, that without accents. -- 76.65.128.43 (talk) 05:24, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Can you link me to the policy that says that? You said the same thing at Talk:Rashōmon, but no only one other editor agreed. The root word is Japanese and is pronounced Saitō. Either way we spell it, it's not going to match some of the articles listed, but none of them are "English" as you say, and if we can't match all of them we need to pick one which accurately fits as many as possible. 96% of the items in the list could be spelled with a macron. elvenscout742 (talk) 05:48, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

It's in the disambiguation page naming guideline. -- 76.65.128.43 (talk) 11:25, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. The disambiguation page should be at the lowest common denominator, which in this case is "Saito". The vast majority of Romanizations of "斉藤" are going to be "Saito", and this is the English Wikipedia so we need to use what is most common in English. Whether or not they could be spelled with a macron is irrelevant to this discussion. The relevant issue is whether it is more common to have it with or without the macron in English, and any random survey of Romanized occurances of "斉藤" will show that "Saito" is the most often used (by a very wide margin). While I personally prefer "Saitō" as being more accurate, WP:USEENGLISH (a guideline) and WP:MOSTCOMMONNAME (a policy) take precedence over my preference (or anyone else's preference, for that matter). ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 07:13, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Follow up to suggested move

Note: it would be possible (possibly even preferable) to split the name-holder list (which is the bulk of this page) to Saitō (surname), leaving a dab with two entries, the surname and the place. The consensus may form then than the surname is the primary topic, moving the short dab to Saito (disambiguation) and the surname to Saitō (with a redirect from Saito) -- I don't know if this is the case, since I'm not up on the naming conventions for surnames. If that happens, though, the surname could just link to the place with a hatnote, and the disambiguation page would no longer be needed. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:56, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't know that that would be a useful move as there are so few entries outside of surnames that there is nothing to disambiguate. It is better to keep them all in one place for now. Also, I've redirected Saitō (surname) and Saito (surname) to this page. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 17:00, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree that there might not be anything to disambiguate, but that would lead me to conclude that the disambiguation page is unneeded, not that the surname page is unneeded. Because the surname list article content is the bulk of the disambiguation page, it would probably be better to make it a surname list article instead of a disambiguation page. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:59, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Because there is at least one non-surname article on the page, we need to keep it how it is. There's no point in making a separate page just for the one other item. If there were a few others, then I'd be fine with that, but as it currently stands, there's no valid reason to split of the surname list into a separate page. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 07:51, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Apart from the questionable usage I brought up below, there only seems to be one non-surname usage. So shouldn't this page be made a redirect, and the surname page say "Saito" redirects here. For the city, see Saito, Miyazaki.? elvenscout742 (talk) 10:04, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Nihonjoe: one non-surname article does not necessitate the disambiguation page. It can be handled with a hatnote if there's a primary topic (and the surname may be), and regardless, anyone may at any time split a surname list from a disambiguation page, regardless of the length(s) of those, and when the surname list is long, such a split is recommended. Elvenscout742: I'm not sure what redirect target you're proposing. I would follow the steps above (the split would probably be best done by moving this page to the surname title, and then editing the resulting redirect into the very short disambiguation page), and then see whether there's any consensus for either of the two ambiguous topics to be primary. -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:06, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, what I meant was what you just said toward NJ, but I don't know the word "hatnote". This page should redirect to "Saitō (surname)" (or just "Saitō"?), and that page should have a hatnote about the city. elvenscout742 (talk) 16:33, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

So that presumes that the surname is the primary topic for "Saito". The steps that could get there:

1. Move this page to Saitō
2. Edit it to remove the disambiguation parts, leaving a surname list article, and a hatnote to the city
3. If there is then objection to the surname being the primary topic for the title "Saito"
   1. Edit the Saito redirect that was left behind into a two-entry dab page, one entry for the city and one for the surname
   2. Remove the hatnote from the surname page
   • Or
   1. Redirect Saito to the city
   2. Add a hatnote to the city article pointing to the surname
   3. Remove the hatnote from the surname page

-- JHunterJ (talk) 17:27, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Well for the surname not to be the primary topic, its only rivals are the below fictional nickname and the small city in southern Japan. I'm pretty sure there are more people with this name than there are people in the city, and I'm considering removing the nickname from the list entirely (although its also a "name" anyway...). elvenscout742 (talk) 17:37, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

After sorting through a million pages or so, I've found other entries for this page and have now separated out the surname listing to Saito (surname). There are now enough non-surname entries to support a separate page listing just the surnames. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 23:45, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

"Saitō Musashibō Benkei"??

Does anyone actually look up "Saito" when they are looking for the article on Musashibō Benkei? The fact that the relevant article writes the hiragana　の in between "Saitō" and "Musashibō", and the kanji for Saitō （西塔), and this, imply that it is not actually a part of his name. Japanese Wiki doesn't mention 西塔 once. I'm really dubious as to whether it should be included on Wikipedia without clarification that it is an appellation applied to him in works of fiction. elvenscout742 (talk) 02:10, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

The only mentions of 西塔 I can find in articles are ja:西塔佳郎, ja:西塔教会, and ja:西塔 (瀋陽市). There are scattered mentions of other uses throughout jawp. None about Benkei ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 07:49, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

This 西塔 is the 西塔 at Enryaku-ji. The origin of the name, Saitō no Musashibō Benkei, seems to be Funa benkei. The name can be found in a line in the play. "かやうに候者ハ。西塔乃傍に住居する武蔵坊辨慶にて候" or "是は西塔の武蔵坊弁慶にて候". See [1], [2] and [3]. Oda Mari (talk) 09:03, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, both of you! So, should we change the opening line of Benkei, then, if the appellation originate in a modern Noh play? elvenscout742 (talk) 09:58, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

It might be a modern play in Kabuki, but I think it's a classic as Noh play as the playwright died in 1450. Oda Mari (talk) 09:25, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, I misread the Wikipedia article on Funa Benkei. I saw the name of an author, assumed it was the original, clicked the link and found out he wrote in the Meiji period. elvenscout742 (talk) 04:43, 21 January 2013 (UTC)