Talk:Rural purge

Untitled

On April 28, this article was nominated for deletion. The discussion can be found at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Rural purge. The result was no consensus. —Xezbeth 14:43, May 7, 2005 (UTC)

Flagged for POV

This entire article reads like a complaint. 173.228.44.72 (talk) 05:21, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree that this article reads like a complaint. Someone dislikes the decision to cancel these shows, and those feelings are obvious from how parts of this article are written. The article includes opinions, unsupported claims, and factual errors (in some instances, factual errors that are THE OPPOSITE of what actually happened).

Take this sentence as an example: "Both 'Green Acres' and 'The Beverly Hillbillies' had fallen out of the Nielsen top 30 by the end of the 1970/71 season, yet both shows had continued to win their respective time slots and had a loyal following, warranting renewal for another season."

Phrases like "loyal following" and "warranting renewal for another season" are pure opinion. The author, to his or her credit, acknowledges that both shows were out of the top 30. But the author then says both shows "had continued to win their respective time slots." Actually, both shows aired on Tuesday nights on CBS that season, opposite ABC's 'Mod Squad', which was number 11 for the season. Since it was in the Top 15, and 'Hillbillies' and 'Acres' weren't in the top 30, 'Mod Squad' clearly won the time slot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.143.202.206 (talk) 03:48, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Ratings

In the interest of accuracy, this article should mention that most of the cancelled shows had declined in popularity and were not in the Nielsen top thirty at the time of their cancellations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.143.202.206 (talk) 21:09, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

It would be helpful, in my opinion, if someone could find and post specific ratings information about the cancelled shows. One of the persistent myths about the "rural purge" is that the cancelled shows were still popular. Books, magazine articles, and the internet often say that 'The Beverly Hillbillies,' 'Green Acres,' and 'Petticoat Junction' (the latter cancelled in 1970) were popular. Sometimes, they're described as "very" popular.

When 'Petticoat Junction' was cancelled in 1970, it had been out of the top 30 for three years. When 'Green Acres' left the air in 1971, it had been out of the top 30 for two seasons. 'The Beverly Hillbillies' dropped out of the top 30 in its final season only -- but it was still outside the top 30. In short, these shows weren't that popular.

Why is that important? First, it's just factually inaccurate to say the shows were all "very popular." That's reason enough. Second, the idea that these shows were "very popular" suggests CBS made a bold or controversial decision -- when in actuality, cancelling a group of shows with mediocre ratings didn't represent a risk at all. CBS had almost nothing to lose by cancelling these shows.

Admittedly, 'Mayberry R.F.D' was in the top 15. Cancelling it was a bold decision. That's a different story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.131.142.97 (talk) 20:23, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

MAD Magazine (No. 152, July 1972) had a satirical poem, written by Tom Koch, about CBS's rural cancellations. The poem is mostly the speech of the programming chief, who says though he loves the rural shows, he must "kill" Green Acres, Hee Haw, and The Beverly Hillbillies. In the last stanza, he sums up his reason: “Some men kill for the joy of it,/To watch the blood ooze pink./But I kill for a reason that/Is different than you’d think./I’ve only killed the shows because/The rating say they stink!” MAD took some poetic license with the punchline. As noted in the above post, Green Acres and the Hillbillies were out of the top 30 for 1970-71. Hee Haw, on the other hand, was #16 in its last year on CBS, beating out other CBS shows, such as Mannix, Doris Day, Mary Tyler Moore, and Carol Burnett. Just1thing (talk) 23:42, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Is this a widely-used term?

I realise it can be difficult to find references for an event that happened 40 years ago, but this article needs them to demonstrate that this is, in fact, a notable term. As it is, the article appears to consist mostly of original research. Robofish (talk) 00:29, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

I doubt that it's a standarnd term. I'm surprised at this article. I think some of it is wrong and it doesn't well support its title. Zaslav (talk) 23:00, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

'Beverly Hillbillies' Reference Unsupported

As of October 23, 2010, this article lists 'The Beverly Hillbillies' as being 33rd in the ratings for the 1970-71 season. When you check the citation listed, you find a list of the top 30 shows of that season. You do NOT find a list that extends beyond that. Thus, there's still no evidence provided to demonstrate that 'The Beverly Hillbillies' was 33rd that year. I'm not trying to be a jerk about this. I'd love to know the show's rating for that year. If someone has the proof, please, post it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.131.142.97 (talk) 05:38, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree, and have deleted that passage. While I don't doubt that 'The Beverly Hillbillies' was #33, or that the person who wrote that knows it, the citation doesn't support it. The paragraph already says that it and 'Green Acres' were out of the top 30, and the citation supports that. It's not necessary to mention 'The Beverly Hillbillies' again while not mentioning 'Green Acres' again. Richard K. Carson (talk) 06:37, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Cleaning up the list of purged shows

As the article's intro states, the "rural purge" was about TV shows (many but not all with rural theme) being canceled not because of low ratings but because they where seen as having too old of a demographic. As such, many of the examples listed in the article do not count as part of the "rural purge" as they got the ax for low ratings, even if they might have had a rural theme or are older demographic. The examples should only include shows axed despite being popular except with older less desirable demographic. I've removed a number of shows from the list that had poor ratings at the time they were canceled and thus don't qualify as victims of the rural purge. I think all the others I kept do qualify for being on the list. I removed the example clean-up tag since I believe the problem has been properly addressed. --Cab88 (talk) 22:04, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Get Smart was also cancelled after its 1970 season. I think we should mention the other 'once popular shows' so that we have a perspective on the type of shows being cancelled. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.19.19.245 (talk) 05:32, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

. Weird long diatribe that was situated in the middle of the article for no reason

. . (This is wrong on many levels. It was never called "The Rural Purge." Did you make that up? The de-ruralization was a CBS event in 1971, which fell under a larger umbrella. The broader picture demonstrates an initial decision to reduce dependence on shows which skewed toward older viewers. Thus, Red Skelton, Jackie Gleason, and Lawrence Welk. Also, it should be noted that this was the first years of the concept of demographics, and A.C. Nielsen ratings had not devised a real means for gathering demographic data, so it was "hit and miss" guessing strategy by the networks. It should be noted the most of the shows listed below were canceled due to overall low ratings. The "Rural Purge" as coined here was equally about older viewers, or as better stated, non-urban viewers. That was the ultimate goal in 1970-1971. And the entire event was mostly due to the change in broadcast laws, as stated by one of the writers of this page. Approximately 14 shows had to leave the schedule since the networks lost so many hours to local affiliates. There were a handful of shows that still had high ratings, such as Mayberry R.F.D. and Hee Haw, but that was not the norm. Many had dipped to levels normal for cancellation. Certainly, these shows were not "replaced" by Maude or The Jefferson's. 14 1/2 hours of programmable blocks literally vanished. No shows replaced those canceled, as the broadcast time did not exist any longer. Television had always had a history of programming youthful, urban oriented shows. The "PURGE" did not continue through the 70's, as indicated below, but as less profitable, shows fell in the ratings, they were eventually canceled. Long running shows are more expensive to produce. And, Here's Lucy was not canceled by networks, but by Lucille Ball. She had wanted to leave after season 5, but CBS persuaded her to do one more year. It was known all season long that the show was in its final season. Most of the shows canceled had lived long runs, some even record breaking. Calling it "the rural purge" suggests a more menacing tactic and a prejudice toward rural America. It was simply dollars and cents, the sudden loss of broadcast hours, and the need for networks to drop less profitable shows. The "fish out of water" era was fading, and Bewitched, I Dream of Jeannie and a host of fantasy themed shows fell into this category and were naturally ending their runs too. Sorry, I intended this to be a private note to the authors, as this article feels meandering and agenda driven, and in the process loses a valid point of view... but the tricky html code has failed me).. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.168.191.157 (talk) 20:02, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Criticism

Was there any criticism of the network for doing this? It would seems like there would be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.24.165.50 (talk) 00:12, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Is there more information out there?

Personally, I think this so-called "Rural Purge" article is choppy and lacks a lot of needed, or simply wanted, information. It is very clear that the majority of the shows cancelled were sitcoms with rural themes, but is it not true that dramas with declining ratings and older demographic ratings were axed as well? Shows with long runs, coped with dropping viewership and diminishing creativity were cancelled as well. For example, Petticoat Junction had indeed been loosing viewers for many years, but according to other sites, the series still placed in the Nielsen Top 35 in 1970, which, in my opinion, was still a show with respectable ratings. I have read on numerous sites (not just Wikipedia) that The Beverly Hillbillies and Green Acres placed 33rd and 34th, respectively, in the spring of 1971. I have often doubted that the phrase "Rural Purge" was ever really used; it has, more than likely, evolved over time. I think ratings (that can be found) she be included for all of these shows. This should be, because readers could know where each show placed in the ratings when it was cancelled. I have also read that in the late sixties and early seventies, the TV landscape was rapidly changing. Newer generations were no longer interested in the shows of the past. Sitcoms like Petticoat Junction, Beverly Hillbillies, Green Acres, Andy Griffith Show, and Gomer Poyle, USMC (so on and so forth) were not new to them, and that is why they did not watch them. Westerns were declining as well: Gunsmoke had been losing viewers for years, just like Bonanza and The Big Valley. Even the zanier and outlandish sitcoms like Bewitched and Here's Lucy were regarded as a passé by the average American viewer. Most of these shows are now regarded as some of TV's classics, but still their popularity had dropped, owing to the end of their initial network runs. More shows that were cancelled, but excluding rural themes, should be discussed. Variety shows, I believe had also dropped in recognition; and even though popular variety shows came in the future (Sonny & Cher and Donny & Marie), the genre had lost much of its core audience. Overall, I believe this article should be expanded, fuller detailed, and better organized through out. This article is not bad, it just needs to be more in depth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ClassiCoEditor97 (talk • contribs) 01:24, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Where's the Wiki page for "Rural Revolution (in TV)"?

This article's Background section starts with "Starting with The Real McCoys, a 1957 ABC program, U.S. television had undergone a "rural revolution", a shift towards situation comedies featuring "naïve but noble 'rubes' from deep in the American heartland".[1] CBS was the network most associated with the trend...." Well, where's the Wiki article about the "rural revolution"??? (I know nothing about that subject, so I won't start the Wiki article.) Phantom in ca (talk) 19:08, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Other reasons for the cancellation of "Petticoat Junction"

I think it important to note that at the time Petticoat Junction was cancelled in 1970, the ratings had been in a steady decline ever since the death of the show's star, Bea Benaderet, in late 1968. This probably had as much to do with it's cancellation as any "vendetta" against Rural Programming, if not more. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.232.239.205 (talk) 02:01, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

It may also be worth noting that PJ was almost cancelled one year earlier (the show even having something of a "farewell" episode at the time), so that its final season was already to some degree an extension beyond its "natural life". 2601:545:8202:4EA5:29E9:6C64:8DF:BCFD (talk) 23:22, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

1969: The Big Valley

The Big Valley was another western that was canceled in 1969 (with definite plans of its own for continuation, such as having Sajid Khan become a supporting cast regular, after his introduction in a fourth season episode, "The Royal Road"). Should it not also be deemed a casualty of this purge? 2601:545:8202:4EA5:29E9:6C64:8DF:BCFD (talk) 23:32, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

How does Bewitched fit into this theme?

In addition to not being a "rural" program, (Bewitched seemed to be representative of having the suburban settings that CBS and other networks (in this case, ABC) were supposedly wanting to focus on. What is the argument for including Bewitched on this page? BookhouseBoy (talk) 03:18, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

I agree. This entire article is absurd and should be deleted. I'll leave the fight for others though. Njsustain (talk) 00:32, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

I agree also. I never read about any such purge and as I tended to follow TV news I would probably have heard about it. This is not good evidence, though. Zaslav (talk) 23:03, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

I've heard actors talk about it (mostly people upset their shows were cancelled and they were out of work), but there's certainly no encyclopedic evidence to make an article about it. If I was still an active user here I'd certainly go through the formal process of asking for this page to be deleted.Njsustain (talk) 12:36, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

an interesting essay

…but nevertheless an essay, which is not consonant with the purpose of Wikipedia.

The comedy shows were unusual in that four generations of my family would often sit down and enjoy them together, something none of the replacements managed. We were rural enough but hardly ignorant hillbillies or stuck in the Outer Boondocks.

The word "purge" is used entirely too much throughout, as though to hammer the concept into the reader's consciousness and "validate" it. Makes me suspect that the "rural purge" thing is not only hugely post hoc but attributable to one source, so I wouldn't be surprised at some degree of citogenesis.

There's also a LOT of "by the way" inclusions and commentaries and factoids that are not at all clearly supported by any credible source. As these have muddled here for years, I say they're fair game for outright deletion.

There's a theme running throughout that partially credits the "purge" to a chase after increased social relevance. Either that needs to be greatly reduced (if not removed entirely) or its failure clarified considering the "airheaded nostalgia" boom marked by Happy Days (1974 debut) and its spinoffs — no Korea, no Vietnam, no civil rights marches — hot on the heels of American Graffiti (1973).

The listing of "purged" shows, never strong to begin, becomes increasingly ephemeral until fetching up at a season-by-season tally that appears to have been pulled out of (to be polite) thin air.

For comparison to the "older" and "rural" demographics, I Spy ended 1968, Star Trek in 1969. Did that make them part of the "escapist"/"non-relevant" part? If so, shouldn't THAT be the focus of the article? If not, how the hell did Spock have "rural" or "older" appeal?
Weeb Dingle (talk) 19:15, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

I agree. I think it was made up by the original writer and is an example of poor original research. One glaring error is attributing "spy shows" to the "British invasion", a musical phenomenon, when it was actually due to the success of James Bond. I was there at the time and everyone knew that. I support deleting this page. Zaslav (talk) 23:05, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

I'm with you on that. I mean, it's an interesting thought, and would likely be fine in a book or magazine article, but it's likely synthesis to drop it here. The States had detective shows (well, just cops with better wardrobes, really; radio plays with pictures) and the Brits had spy shows, each probably reflecting how the countries dealt with postwar and Cold War issues and anxieties — which goes waaay past the article's remit. I'd say cut it.
Weeb Dingle (talk) 19:51, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

Gomer Pyle or Red Skelton?

Both Gomer Pyle and Red Skelton are listed as "the first" to be canceled. Obviously this can't be true. But it's not necessarily as simple as proving that Gomer Pyle went off the air first; maybe there's a dispute about whether Gomer Pyle even belongs in the article. So I'll leave that question to the people who understand the issue. TooManyFingers (talk) 10:19, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Networks document purge

A lot of people like to interfere with articles they don't know anything about. Just because you don't know doesn't mean no one does. CNN ran a report on the purge in its series "The Sixties", and "The Seventies". PBS, and The History Channel have mentioned it in several documentaries on television. The documentaries show, and quote writers of books on the subject, interviews actors, producers, critics, and many others in the industry. "inline" doesn't mean online. The long list of citations at the end of wiki articles reflecting the demand for citations is more a reflection of the ignorance of those demanding the citations than contributing to the authority of the articles. Citations are for disputed or likely to be disputed information. Disputes should be published disputes among experts in the field the information comes from not from those too ignorant of the field to even know elementary information about the field. Or disputed because they just don't like what the information reveals, and are tasking the editor for basic information just to make it more likely the editor will give up. If you write "I don't know but..." or you demand a cite, and it is supplied then you shouldn't be involved in the article at all. Disputes shouldn't be allowed from every ignorant jack hole on the planet. That's not how real encyclopedias work. 98.164.81.209 (talk) 17:19, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Whatever are you going on about? --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 22:31, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

List of shows needed

Although show titles are mentioned in the course of discussion of various topics, this article needs a list codifying exactly what shows were "purged." Reading this talk page it would seem the article once had such a list, and it would probably need some sort of citation (plus policing the list to make sure shows that were not cancelled due to the page - such as Get Smart, or Wild Wild West which was cancelled a couple years before and arguably due to violence - are not included). 23skidoo (talk) 21:35, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

The list was removed in 2020 as almost entirely unsourced. Schazjmd (talk) 21:43, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

"coined in 2010s"

The lead was changed in this edit by @Raven Monty:, with an edit summary that says There is no evidence of this term being used prior to the creation of this Wikipedia page. This claim is incorrect.

• 1996 book: "...CBS's "rural purge" in 1971..."[1]
• 1985 book: "...in CBS's great rural purge of 1971..."[2]
• 1989 book: "...as part of the network's "rural purge"..."[3]
• 1997 book: "...on the CBS rural purge..."[4]
• 2000 book: "...debuted in the middle of CBS's "Rural Purge"..."[5]

I am restoring the lead sentence. Schazjmd (talk) 18:12, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

NM, CurryTime7-24 reverted it. Schazjmd (talk) 18:14, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

First use in newspapers (in this context) was in February 1971.[6] Schazjmd (talk) 18:19, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I think there is a need for the article to describe where the term came from and when. At the moment there's no mention of it. Nthep (talk) 18:36, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Looks like we're all at work on this! ;) I clipped the same Chicago Tribune article a short while ago. Give me a couple of hours to do some rewriting. As for the origin of the term, this is what Eskridge says: "... Fred Silverman, with the assistance of Robert Wood and the acquiescence of William Paley, initiated what is known in the entertainment industry as the 'rural purge', a term of unknown coinage". —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 19:08, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

A couple of 80s uses [7] and [8] Nthep (talk) 19:15, 3 December 2024 (UTC)