Talk:Renaissance/Archive 5

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Anglicized?

"The term rinascita ('rebirth') first appeared in Giorgio Vasari's Lives of the Artists (c. 1550), anglicized as the Renaissance in the 1830s." --should say "gallicized". It was first adapted into French and then borrowed from French into English. Anglicized would be "renascence" (cf "nascent"), which is occasionally seen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.208.212.255 (talk) 13:47, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Global renaissance

There's a lot of studies that nowadays focus on the spread of Renassaince culture outside of Europe. I believe the article should mention them and their content. Daniel Savoy's globalization of Renaissance art is a good read on the matter.Barjimoa (talk) 06:16, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

Renaissance

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • GAN review not found

Result: Delisted per consensus. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 08:39, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

GA from 2007. Significant unsourced material including entire unsourced sections throughout the article. I had placed comments before hand back in February stating that this would need to be fixed or i'd nominate it to be delisted and the issues still remain. Onegreatjoke (talk) 03:01, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree: there are just too many unreferenced paragraphs. Phlsph7 (talk) 07:29, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Yeesh. Yes. It's in a pretty bad state. Getting this back to GA will be a real project. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:00, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Delist - lots of effort needed to get this to GA standard. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:15, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Renaissance in Russia

The section contradicts itself, is completely unsourced and mostly a synth. First sentence is There was no Renaissance in Russia in the original sense of the term. - and that's right, sources confirm it! F.e. Oxford Bibliographies: the “Renaissance Era” is not a category of periodization in Russian history, largely because Russia did not experience the Renaissance—nor, of course, the Protestant Reformation—even if it did borrow from the political, cultural, and even religious styles and vocabularies developed then in the West. Despite that, the section on Russia is longer than for any other country, though there were no such period in Russian history! The fact that Ivan III commissioned an Italian architect to build a palace didn't bring the Renaissance to the country. And this A Moscovite monk called Isidore used this technology to produce the first original Russian vodka c. 1430. is just ridiculous.

I'm removing the section as synth and probably OR, please don't revert unless you have scholarly sources on the subject. Artem.G (talk) 10:29, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Renaissance in England is questionable

Renaissance in England is questionable, due to the lack of Italian style Renaissance architecture painting and sculpture in England.--Pharaph (talk) 10:43, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Not a very well-informed opinion! As the article says, music and literaure were the most prominent forms, and the Renaissance style in the visual arts rather late, and mediated through the Low Countries. Johnbod (talk) 12:04, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Dear Johnbod!

England had no Renaissance because of its insular medieval continuities

(C.S. Lewis, 1954, p. 55–56; Neville Coghill, 1965, p. 60–61, Charles A. Gill · 1943 p.25, Stephen Games 2016, p. 149, Russell Sturgis, ‎Francis A. Davis · 2013, p. 902, William M. Sloane · 2023 , p. 6, ) These experts are famous serious names in this topic. Pharaph (talk) 21:19, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Irrelevant. We already have an article on the English Renaissance, covering the literature, visual arts, music, and architecture of the late 15th century, the entire 16th century, and the early 17th century. Basically, the entire Tudor period and part of the Stuart period. With new ideas spread by the printing press.Dimadick (talk) 12:24, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Literature belongs to humanism instead of renaissance. Can you show me a true Renaissance (Italian look-alike) architecture in England? Or English renaissance painters? As far as I know England was the last country of Western Christian world , where printing press appeared.--Pharaph (talk) 19:39, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Raising sharply (again) the question of how much you do know! See Global_spread_of_the_printing_press#Dates_by_location - England was ahead of Iberia, Munich, Vienna, Scandinavia & most of Eastern Europe, among other places. Your "true Renaissance (Italian look-alike) architecture" is just a nonsense. Johnbod (talk) 20:34, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia reports what the reliable sources actually say--and they see a strong English Renaissance and emphasize literature: Maley, Nation, State and Empire in English Renaissance Literature: Shakespeare to Milton (Springer, 2015); D Norbrook Poetry and politics in the English Renaissance (2002); SJ Greenblatt - , Representing the English Renaissance 1988 ; KE Maus, Inwardness and theater in the English Renaissance (1995); D Norbrook Poetry and politics in the English Renaissance (2002); on literature see also SJ Greenblatt - , Representing the English Renaissance 1988 ; KE Maus, Inwardness and theater in the English Renaissance (1995). On architecture see: D Howarth, Images of rule: art and politics in the English Renaissance, 1485-1649 (1997); M. Marx, "Architecture and the English Renaissance" The Sewanee Review; P Borsay, . "The English Urban Renaissance: The Development of Provincial Urban Culture c. 1680–c. 17601." in The Eighteenth-Century Town (2014) pp. 159-187. On painting see C Hulse, "Recent Studies of Literature and Painting in the English Renaissance." (1985). Rjensen (talk) 19:52, 15 August 2023 (UTC).

So dear Johnbod, "English Renaissance" is a misleading name, because it has nothing common with the renaissance of the Continental Europe, it is rather a very different renaissance as the the Carolingian renaissance. Pharaph (talk) 08:09, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

1476 for printing press is a late date. England had to import paper from the continent, due to the lack of paper manufacturing in medieval England.

But let's return to the main topic: If there is a Carolingian Renaissance, why not an English Renaissance?

See how many "renaissance" exist here, the modern inflation of the world "renaissance" is shockingly big: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_(disambiguation)

The "English renaissance" phrase exist since long time, nobody denied it, however it is less or not related to the Renaissance of continental Europe, which was a directly Italian influenced phenomenon.

About literature: I uphold the firm traditional conviction that literature as a genre actually belongs to humanism rather than the Renaissance.--Pharaph (talk) 09:40, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

That's a very personal view, certainly not "traditional" at all. You should read Artists of the Tudor court for the limited but steady flow of Italian and Netherlandish artists working in England. Johnbod (talk) 14:18, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Where are the English Renaissance architects painters, buildings sculptors? I can't see the "English Renaissance" as similar to of the directly Italian influenced Renaissance of the continent. I think the English renaissance term is rather a very different "renaissance" as the Renaissance of the 12th century or Carolingian Renaissance. They are also Renaissances similar to the English. Only their names are similar to the original Italian influenced RENAISSANCE. Maybe England the only country in Europe, where the literature belong to renaissance, in all other countries the literature belongs to Humanism. --Pharaph (talk) 20:16, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 October 2023

Please change the following sentence: The Renaissance began in Florence, one of the many states of Italy.

To: The Renaissance began in Florence, one of many states of the Holy Roman Empire (Kingdom of Italy). Spargel 24 (talk) 14:46, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

No - at the time HRE influence was minimal. Johnbod (talk) 14:56, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Florence was part of the HRE until 1806 and therefore under its jurisdiction. Florence was not independent. Spargel 24 (talk) 15:32, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

No. Sources that describe Florence this way? Johnbod (talk) 17:45, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. Actualcpscm ^{scrutinize, talk} 17:49, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Note that it was the Republic of Florence throughout the relevant period - and that is the link we use. Johnbod (talk) 18:48, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Arguments, that the Republic of Florence and its successors, the Duchy of Florence and the Grand Duchy of Tuscany, where part of the Holy Roman Empire (HRE):

In the article Republic of Florence, the following is mentioned:

• Florence was part of the HRE in 1138.
• „In 1529, Clement VII signed the Treaty of Barcelona with Charles V, under which Charles would, in exchange for the Pope's blessing, invade Florence and restore the Medici.“
• „Following the Republic's surrender in the Siege of Florence, Charles V, issued a proclamation explicitly stating that he and he alone could determine the government of Florence.“

In the article Holy Roman Empire, the following is mentioned:

• A map from 1356 that shows, that Republic of Florence was part of the HRE.
• A map from 1544 that shows, that Republic of Florence was part of the HRE.

In the article Herzogtum Florenz (Wiki_DE), the following is mentioned:

• A map from 1559 that shows, that the Duchy of Florence was part of the HRE.

In the article Großherzogtum Toskana (Wiki_DE), the following is mentioned:

• The Grand Duchy of Tuscany was part of the Kingdom of Italy (Holy Roman Empire) until 1801.

In the article Kingdom of Italy (Holy Roman Empire), the following is mentioned:

• „While they were excluded from the Reichstag, the Italian states were still considered vassals of the emperor, like other states of the empire, and thus subject to certain obligations and jurisdiction. A special Italian section of the Aulic Council was created in 1559. It handled 1,500 cases from Imperial Italy between 1559 and 1806 (out of 140,000 total), with most of those cases coming from later dates.“--Spargel 24 (talk) 11:46, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Yada, yada. As Republic of Florence says, Florence was "nominally" part of the HRE. It may have been considered Imperial territory in Germany, but not by the Florentines during the crucial period (well before Charles V etc). The change you propose would simply mislead the reader. Johnbod (talk) 18:30, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

In the article List of states in the Holy Roman Empire you find in the section Italian territories Florence mentioned with a link to the Republic of Florence. And other North Italian states, e.g. Siena. I think it is now your turn to provide sources that support your point of view, so that we can reach consensus.

Additionally to my above proposed change, I propose to implement a sentence in the article which explains, that the HRE was the center of the renaissance with its North Italian states, and the states on the territories of todays The Netherlands, Belgium, Germany and Austria. Spargel 24 (talk) 18:44, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Johnbod, mentioning HRE would be simply misleading. The majority of sources say just "Florence", not "Florence, a part of the HRE" or smth similar. And there is no need here for long explanation of what was the political structure of HRE and how Florence was nominally a part of it. And especially there is no need for "HRE was the center of renaissance", that's even more misleading. Artem.G (talk) 18:53, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Italy, The Netherlands and Germany are mentioned in the article. This is misleading because there were no such states at the time. The entities that existed at the time were the Republic of Florence, Republic of Siena, Duchy of Milan, Duchy of Brabant, Diocese of Liège, Diocese of Trier, Electoral Palatinate and the 100+ other entities which all were part of the HRE.

The article describes the renaissance not in the correct historical context.

But I admit, that the HRE is very complex and therefore hard to describe and that seeing the renaissance in the context of the HRE is for many authors new and I guess it needs some time to be digested. Spargel 24 (talk) 16:16, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 November 2023

I would like to change the area where it says 15th to 16th and add a 14th because that is the year the renaissance had started Blitzo Lee (talk) 13:38, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

It's complicated question, which been discussed here at length. Remember we are not just talking about Italy. The paragraphs after unpack this rather bald statement, Johnbod (talk) 03:26, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. Additionally, such a proposal will require reliable sources for the discussion, in support of potentially building consensus. -- Pinchme123 (talk) 05:45, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

History

What to do mean by Renaissance? Explain the factor which lead to the rise of Renaissance? 2409:40D5:5D:47CC:8000:0:0:0 (talk) 08:35, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

The article does that. Read it. Johnbod (talk) 18:32, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Only Hungary imported Trecento and Quatrocento from Italy

All others (French Germans Spanish) etc. had only Cinquecento period. We must be mention it on the lead section too.--Pharaph (talk) 21:20, 4 December 2023 (UTC)