Talk:Red Ruthenia

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Mistake

Cherven towns and Red Ruthenia - two diffrent places nad another timeline - look: pl:Grody Czerwieńskie, pl:Ruś Czerwona. Cherven towns exited ealier and was capured by Wolomir I. Later as part of Halych-Volhynia was called by Poles as Red Ruthenia (pl: Ruś Czerwona). Red means czerwony in Polish. Cherven towns - Red towns. --Paweł5586 (talk) 10:36, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Colors as direction indicators

What is the source for claiming that white meant north, red meant west and black was south, at the very beginning of the article? Actually, some authors interpret the names as white means west, red means south, black means north. so totally different from the sourceless description in the article. Merewyn (talk) 16:24, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not to mention that there is nothing about the colours of faces in the Svetovid article at all.Merewyn (talk) 16:31, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Red Russia?

I doubt that this region has been commonly called "Red Russia" in English-language literature. I found that "Red Russia" is virtually always a reference to Soviet Russia or the Soviet Union more broadly, not to this region on the border of Ukraine and Poland. "Red Russia" is just Communist Russia, just like Red China.

Even the 1907 book by John Foster Fraser, Red Russia. New York: The John Lane Company, 1907. 403 pages. written as it was 10 years before the 1917 October Revolution, is all about the impact the Russian Revolution of 1905 and the wider state of affairs in the Russian Empire, which he travelled while writing this book. The book starts and ends in Saint Petersburg, he does visit Kyiv at some point, but also Warsaw and various other cities in the Empire. I'm not seeing any references to what we call "Red Ruthenia".

If anything, I think it is a rare mistranslation. There are many variations of this toponym in other languages, beautifully summarised in the lead section. Let me quote it: (Ukrainian: Червона Русь, romanized: Chervona Rus'; Polish: Ruś Czerwona; Latin: Ruthenia Rubra; Russia Rubra; Russian: Червoнная Русь, romanized: Chervonnaya Rus' or Russian: Красная Русь, romanized: Krasnaya Rus'; Romanian: Rutenia Roșie). Except for Latin Russia Rubra (but obviously not Ruthenia Rubra), none of these would translate to English as Russia. These are all different ways of writing Rus' or Ruthenia. If they meant Russia, they would have written Росія, Rosja, Россия, Rusia instead; but that's not what these languages do. Red Russia seems a very rare mistranslation in English that is barely used anymore, and never near the same frequency as Red Ruthenia when referring to this region. As George Slocombe wrote in 1916 (just before the October Revolution): ...the province of Red Russia, or, as it should more strictly be called, Red Ruthenia, which, however, did not long remain a part of Poland. From 1917 onwards, "Red Russia" mostly refers to Soviet Russia and not to this Ukrainian-Polish border region. NLeeuw (talk) 06:19, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you simply search for "Red Russia", then it is clear that communism is the primary topic. Similar story with "White Russia" in regards to the White movement. Modern history is much more popular. But this does not mean it has not been used to refer to the region.

I see the term used in The Polish-Lithuanian State, 1386-1795: "Some Ruthenian nobles lost their lands when Kazimierz III the Great of Poland took Galicia (Red Russia)." (p. 25). The Jews of Eastern Europe, 1772-1881 says: "Western Galicia included territories from 'Little Poland,' most of whose inhabitants were Catholic Poles, while eastern Galicia took in territories of 'Red Russia,' whose population was Ukrainian and Greek Catholic." (p. 70). Mellk (talk) 06:46, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Judging by Ngram, there are plenty of results for "Red Russia", particularly in the 19th century. Interestingly there is a spike in "Red Ruthenia" around 1920. Mellk (talk) 07:05, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]