Talk:Radiofax

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Would a list of common/popular radiofax frequencies/stations be appropriate?

Please discuss... 66.28.178.67 17:29, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That kind of stuff usually attracts a lot of spam, IMO. If there is a site with that kind of info we could link to, that would be a good addition for the external links. Recury 19:16, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that would enhance the article greatly--Read-write-services 01:22, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The list I use most often is here: http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/marine/rfax.pdf 66.28.178.68 21:37, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Listed "frequency" for a fax transmission?

In this article: "With correct tuning (1.9kHz below the carrier frequency for USB, above for LSB), the signal shares some characteristics with SSTV, with black at 1500Hz and peak white at 2300Hz."

??? - The statement "black at 1500Hz and peak white at 2300Hz" can't possibly be true for both USB and LSB.

From http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/marine/rfax.pdf: "Unless otherwise stated, assigned frequencies are shown, for carrier frequency subtract 1.9 kHz."

A bit confusing. What carrier? There can be a couple of meanings:

- Carrier = unshifted fax frequency, i.e. the absolute signal frequency while not carrying intelligence, which will fall 1900Hz lower, to be tuned in LSB.

- Carrier = virtual (suppressed) carrier frequency that will result in white at 2300 Hz and black at 1500 Hz, either USB or LSB.

If the suppressed carrier is at (f - 1900Hz) and the blank signal results in 1900Hz, blank will be a tone of grey. If blank means white, then the "unshifted" frequency will have to be 2300Hz above the suppressed carrier. This article says "shifted up OR down", meaning that blank is indeed grey.

Nowadays SSB generally means USB in utility radio, and "tuning" normally refers to the suppressed USB carrier, so -1900Hz refers to the tuning frequency of the radio, and most listed frequencies are absolute blank signal frequencies.

This would also mean that a fax frequency is normally listed exactly as CW was, not as SSB is, and fax would need the equivalent of a BFO offset of -1900Hz over the blank.

I am receiving GYA, 8040 kHz. With virtual carrier at at 8038.1 white seems to fall at 2300 Hz and blank at 1900.

Is this correct?

Spamhog (talk) 13:46, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Kyodo News update

I have received these hffax's as recently as 11-Nov-2012 from the websdr in the Netherlands. 8.30.157.1 (talk) 18:00, 3 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Uses Beyond Weather

This article gives the impression that Radiofax is primarily a weather information technology, without any mention of the fact that it's how news photographs were rapidly shared around the world for decades. That may no longer be a current use, but it seems too important to leave out.

I agree completely. This article is entirely biased, and give a vastly incorrect impression. It is as though the article on the United States Railroad system spoke only of freight, ignoring that railroad was the primary mode of public transportation for one hundred twent-five years.

I completely rewrote the article to remove the ignoration of the first thirty years of the use of this technology. In particular I mention its use during World War II. I use the iconic Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima photograph to illustrate the use of radiofacsimile during that war. Nick Beeson (talk) 21:25, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

But now there are two sections called "History" that seem to have little to do with each other. Can we try to integrate them into a coherent story? And holding up Richard H. Ranger as is he's the key inventor seems odd; personally, I had never heard of him, but I see he worked in this field. There was a lot of wired facsimile work by 1924, and a lot of work on wireless telegraphy; and probably some combinations. So what exactly did he invented, and who else should be part of that story? I have a bunch of books on these topics in my library. Dicklyon (talk) 00:12, 13 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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Image example

The article currently contains File:Raising_the_Flag_on_Iwo_Jima,_larger_-_edit1.jpg, labeled as "A radiofax image sent across the Pacific Ocean February 23, 1945". Given the high quality and resolution of the image, I assume that it's a scan of the original photograph/negative, not what was actually received. As such, I think the label is misleading and doesn't illustrate the technology very well. Is a copy of the image with the radiofax artifacts available?

--Janschejbal (talk) 04:27, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Janschejbal Agree. The current header image is misleading and confusing. Given Wikipedia's reach as a "trusted" source, it also generates false search engine results for "radiofax" queries. It should be taken down and replaced with a suitable radiofax image. Technicality nitpicker (talk) 08:54, 25 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Merger proposal

I propose merging Radiofax into Wirephoto (or vice versa) as they appear to describe the same process. Even the same dates are given for the photograph sent by AT&T in 1924. 96.67.69.62 (talk) 23:17, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Radiofax Modulation (it's FM)

Hi all, the modulation description is misleading/incorrect, it currently reads:

Radiofax is transmitted in single sideband which is a refinement of amplitude modulation.

However, radiofax is a frequency modulation format, the RF signal must be demodulated using a frequency to voltage converter to get the video signal.

It is a special case of a DC coupled FM signal, which shares some characteristics with the FSK used for RTTY. Radiofax is an analog FM signal that happens to mostly transmit pulse-type signals, but can also transmit analog video levels.

It is correct (but not entirely useful) to say that a single sideband receiver is commonly used to downconvert the signal for further demodulation.

The rest of the paragraph goes on to describe frequency modulation in a roundabout way.

The signal shifts up or down a given amount to designate white or black pixels. A deviation less than that for a white or black pixel is taken to be a shade of grey.

The "shifting up or down" implies that the amplitude would change (since it's stated to be single sideband amplitude modulation), but of course it's the frequency that changes up or down, the amplitude is constant.

This confusion likely stems from the fact that in most modern use cases -- e.g. with computer sounds cards and software demodulation, or even hardware demodulators that connect to an external radio -- the signal is received using an upper-sideband SSB receiver, which is basically what is described:

With correct tuning (1.9 kHz below the assigned frequency for USB, above for LSB), the signal shares some characteristics with SSTV, with black at 1.5 kHz and peak white at 2.3 kHz.

This information is useful, though I will note that basically all softwares/hardware demodulators expect USB mode to be used, using LSB would invert the polarity of the signal (and likely cause issues with automatic phase alignment). We should at least mention that line printers with associated radios were common at one time even if they are completely obsolete now.

My proposed revised paragraph:

Radiofax is transmitted as narrow band frequency modulation. The carrier frequency shifts up or down a given amount around the nominal center frequency to designate white or black pixels, typically +425 Hz corresponds to white, and -425 Hz to black. A frequency in between the white or black frequencies is taken to be a shade of grey.

Reception may be done using dedicated FM receivers and associated line printers, or more commonly using a single sideband receiver to convert the frequencies into the audible range for demodulation using a software modem or dedicated hardware demodulator. By convention the single sideband receiver is tuned 1.9 kHz below the assigned frequency in upper-sideband mode. In this case the signal shares some characteristics with SSTV, with black at approximately 1.5 kHz and peak white at 2.3 kHz for the common +/- 425 Hz white/black levels.

[remaining text unaltered] 46.212.200.86 (talk) 22:02, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There are 2 History sections...

I have no idea how to fix it, but there are 2 sections titled "History"... Could a computer wiz out there in the cyberspace merge them together or at least change the 2nd, much simpler one to "Herstory"? 2600:8805:A900:28:B859:17B5:FA80:531D (talk) 06:06, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]