Talk:Races and creatures in His Dark Materials

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Gyptians 2014

I've just tidied Gyptians,losing any substantive point, does anyone know what the source or justification is for comparing them to / equating them with "watergeuzen"?Pincrete (talk) 23:37, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You might like to add that they are called Gyptians because Egyptians is how the Venerable Bede refers to gypsies, thinking, as people did in the 8th century, that gypsies came from Egypt. Fuficius Fango (talk) 17:07, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Everything below is Pre-2009

~~ The word panserbjorne is NOT danish-- panser is german (meaning tiger) and bjorne means bear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.190.163 (talk) 01:24, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nonsense, panser is Dutch and means armored (the germans use "panzer", with a 'z'), and bjorne (or bjorn) is -not- a german word, I its a scandinavian boys name meaning "bear". The "tiger" you mention, is a german tank, or "Panzerkampfwagen". Mahjongg (talk) 13:14, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ethnic groups?

Gyptians are not a "race" in the fantasy literature sense and should be removed from this list. If no-one objects, I'll do just that. Or maybe move the entry to a page named Ethnic groups in His Dark Materials? – Adrian Lozano (talk) 16:28, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, they are a human ethnicity. However, the entry is well-written and deserves to be placed elsewhere. Perhaps the article title should be changed to something more encompassing like "Inhabitants of the His Dark Materials Universe." Then you could include animals, races, ethnicities, creatures, beings, etc. Of course, that doesn't include plants (e.g. bloodmoss), so perhaps it could be something like, "Life Forms of the HDM Universe."

Thoughts about this? StrangeAttractor (talk) 01:15, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there! I fully agree with you regarding the quality of the entry on Gyptians. But the name of the article is "Races and creatures in His Dark Materials" which I think is specific enough, considering "Gyptians" is the only entry that doesn't fit the article name. A general-purpose article, such as the one you suggest, would maybe not be such a good idea, lest we'll have articles like Inhabitants (individuals, races, species and groups), locations (real and hypothetical) and objects (concrete and abstract) of the His Dark Materials Universe and also the Narnia and Middle-earth universes (and all others). ;-)

We already have articles named Characters of His Dark Materials, Objects of His Dark Materials and Locations in His Dark Materials, so a new article, like the one I suggested earlier (but with a better name), wouldn't be out of place. The article Objects of HDM already covers a lot of what you suggest, BTW.

Other fantasy universes on Wikipedia have similar subdivisions. Middle-earth have Bestiary of Middle-earth and List of Middle-earth peoples, Narnia have List of Narnian creatures, Discworld have Category:Discworld peoples and Flora and fauna of the Discworld and Star Wars have List of Star Wars races for sentient species and List of Star Wars creatures for non-sentient species.

In short, my suggestion is to restrict this article to just sentient and non-sentient animal species, and have another article listing the various ethnicities and/or groupings. Whatchasay? – Adrian Lozano (talk) 00:17, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't been working on any of these articles, but re: my comment above, I think this is sound. There are enough ethnicities in the HDM universe to warrant an entry: Gyptians, Skraelings, Tartars, etc. Of course, pretty much all of them are analogues of ethnicities in the real universe (Gypsies, Amerindians, Siberians, etc.), but worth detailing because they have a different history and significance in HDM. (One of the most notable differences: America was not successfully colonized, so the "Skraelings" continue to have a significant political role.) StrangeAttractor (talk) 00:26, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just my two cents (I know this is kinda late, but it could still be done). The Revelation Space universe, another fictional universe, almost had a similar problem; it's a science fiction universe with a whole load of alien races and new groups of people. The whole thing was solved quite elegantly by creating two articles: Races in Revelation Space and Factions in Revelation Space. Having read HDM, I think the same solution would work quite nicely here: there's more than enough factions in the HDM universe (Asriel's, the Magisterium, the witches, and so on) for a substantial article there, and, well, yeah. Problem solved, I think. Should I get enough time- not very likely for the next little while, I'm afraid :(, I may use my actual wikipedia account to start this up. 211.30.66.138 (talk) 13:44, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't even considered non-ethnic groups, but I think you're spot on, except that I'm not sure the word "faction" is appropriate. Good idea. – Adrian Lozano (talk) 00:17, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of missing species

These are the species from His Dark Materials that I think should be added for completeness. My criteria for inclusion are that they are fictional (e.g. spy-flies), differ from our "version" of the species (e.g. arctic fox), or otherwise play a notable role in the novels (e.g. dragonflies)

~~Arctic Foxes - the speech-parroting version~~
Ghosts - actually more like a state of existence, but still...
Dragonflies - gestation-controlled gallivespian-mount
Grazers - mulefa-like cattle
Harpies - foul-smelling half-bird-half-woman ghost-watchers
Humans - differs from our world's humans by having a physical manifestation of the soul.
Nälkäinens - referenced to by Tony Costa; forest-dwelling sleeper-grabbing ghosts.
Riders - centaur-like creatures in the Battle of the Plains
Spy-flies - mechanical beetle-sized creature, powered by an angry spirit
Waylurkers - from TGC p62 "... and waylurkers tempted careless travelers to their doom in the swamps and bogs ..."
Windsuckers - referenced to by Tony Costa; drifting invisible shimmering strength-draining creatures.
Witches - humans in that they have dæmons, but possesing special powers, indifference to cold, flight capapability and extended life-span.
Breathless Ones - referenced to by Tony Costa; half-killed warriors with lung-pumping dæmons

– Adrian Lozano (talk) 17:23, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure all of these need to be included. Most of these have no real significance in the novel's plot. Waylurkers, for example, are only apparently mentioned on one page of one book- hardly of any real importance. Only the ones which are talked about quite a bit and have a significant impact should be included. (I personally reckon that only the sentient ones should really count as "races"- the rest are fictional species).

Of the species mentioned here, witches and harpies are the only ones I reckon should be included. The rest are either too insignificant, or should be mentioned in other sections (I think the dragonflies, for example, warrant mentioning in the Gallivespian section, but they don't need a section of their own because they aren't mentioned anywhere outside the gallivespians). As for the humans and ghosts- I reckon the ghosts are similar enough to any normal view of ghosts. Any non-reader would probably still be able to work out what they are without a sectio here to explain it. The humans, meanwhile, are just too similar to standard humans to warrant a description of their own, especially as daemons already have an article of their own.211.30.172.67 (talk) 07:55, 5 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are some grammatical errors and inaccuracies that need to be edited. Rocksrule77 (talk) 17:22, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mulefa on the tv series - deviation from book description

@Pincrete Thank you for adding the link on "spirits" for Iorek.

You have removed the reference and the details from the blu-ray extras from the the "Mulefa" entry without good cause. The series 3 extras describes the creation and rendering of the CGI creatures and how they did not want the very alien looking form as described in the books as it was complex and considered off-putting.

If you believe my reference is not up Wikipedia standard, then please correct it to the desired format.

ASC Camsteerie (talk) 05:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Camsteerie, the blurb on a DVD isn't verifiable. I didn't until now realise that this was what you were reffing (I thought you were linking to the WP TV series article). Why not include that info on the TV series article, saying that it is recorded on the DVD blurb. Quite frankly the reasons why changes are made to (relatively minor) characters for TV isn't substantial enough for this 'main page' article, mainly about the books IMO. We can just record that they are different here, which is roughly what we do for other changes, we don't need references for that kind of info, just as we don't need refs for 'plots'.Pincrete (talk) 07:20, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Pincrete

What I had done was actually to move an erroneously placed section of text from the "Worlds" webpage to the "Races" webpage of the His Dark Materials and then worked to clarify and reference it. There was already a brief descriptor of the mulefa for the tv series there, incorrectly identifying giraffes and hippos in the concept, so I reworked the two pieces together and corrected it.

Info from a video, or a video extra as here, is verifiable by anyone viewing that content - BTW: I don't know what you mean by "blurb", but it does only mean the promotional text on the back of a book or CD, etc. and is a synonym for "bumpf".

I was most interested in how Bad Wolf would create the mulefa, if the did at all - the stage adaptation omitted them entirely. Pullman introduced the concept of lozenge-backed creatures in order for them to be as distinctly different / alien in form of life on an Earth-like world; he specifically drafted them intelligent and sophisticated, but non-industrialised to work as a contrast but not being anywhere close to being "human" or "humanoid". He describes them as a cross between an antelope and an elephant and a motorcycle. Physiologically speaking mulefa and tualapi would not get off the ground in evolutionary terms in the real world.

The mulefa are significant in the book that they impart to Mary Malone an alternative view of the world and show the basis of how to make the amber spyglass. In the tv series, because of the creative difficulties and to stop the story dragging, they are minimised.

Trying to realise the concept of these creatures for the tv was too much process and considered off-putting to an audience who typically prefer the cuddly, so Bad Wolf compromised considerably by instead looking at prehistoric mammals, inc ground sloths, Moeritherium, along with Chalicotheres. I just gave the main one.

ASC Camsteerie (talk) 08:26, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

By 'blurb' I simply meant the text on the DVD cover. You seem to be implying that this is actually video material within the DVD itself, apologies for the misunderstanding. Pincrete (talk) 08:32, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Pincrete

Yep that fine.

Knowing now that I am talking about the video's extras, not dustjacket blurb, have you any objections to the section:

"with the aim being somewhat familiar in appearance, rather than totally alien, and also to avoid the cost of developing a CGI creature as complex as Pullman describes."

Or something similar. I would like to convey the fact that the tv model is quite different from Pullman's ideas, odd as they are.

It is noticeable about the budgetary restrictions from coping with the pandemic, how Bad Wolf changed Asriel's world from the final episode in series 2, strongly inspired by the book with the basaltic formations, to how it appeared in series 3 as a steel castle on a Welsh hillside. The same applied to mulefa's world development.

Also, do you have a basic form or template for presenting video-sourced references, like the ISBN for books? Thanks

ASC Camsteerie (talk) 08:57, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know how to 'cite' tha content of a video, except when it is available online. But, I do think that 'editorial decisions' made by the makers of the series, and reasons for making them (eg complexity/cost/difficulty) should be ascribed/attributed to someone/some org. Somebody decided to make these particular decisions and that to some extent answers the 'verifiability' issue. Purely factual decisions about how something is presented in the series don't need citing, as this is treated as being 'plot-like info' verifiable by watching the series/reading the books. Pincrete (talk) 18:19, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]