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Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3

Reasons for POV-tag

Since it seems some people are not aware (or pretending to) of the reasons for the POV tag, let me re-iterate:

  • Title of the article is POV.
  • Inclusion of areas beyond the scope of the article (e.g. Circassia)
  • Glaring POV omissions. Events are presented without any context (e.g. Armenian Genocide, etc...)
  • Over-reliance on hyper-partisan, genocide denialist sources (e.g. Justin McCarthy)
  • Lack of non-partisan sources that present these disparate events as a unified topic.
  • Article tone.

For these reasons, the POV tag should stay until the issues are resolved. Khirurg (talk) 20:50, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

These "reasons" are based on your own biased POV, thus having no base. You can't just decide by yourself that this article is POV since you don't like it, which was evidenced by your baseless proposal for deletion of this very article before. Akocsg (talk) 22:46, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
@Khirurg: This is your opinion, the majority has disagreed. You have essentially reiterated what was claimed in the first section, and the majority did not agree. You may think this way but most others disagreed. You cannot just place a tag because you feel like it and disagree with others. I will still answer you here:
  • Title is in no way POV, literally as non-POV as it can possibly be. How is persecution POV, seriously?
  • Scope is another issue with a separate tag already in place. Regardless of your view, that is an entirely separate case so is invalid in this argument.
  • See previous section,
@Calthinus: "Generally there is no need to make a "balancing" act on pages where that would require going off topic, i.e. one does not "balance" Polish massacres of Jews with alleged Jewish Bolshevism stuff except to explain the motives of the killers where it is absolutely necessary."
This is an encyclopedia, there is no requirement to balance every article.
  • Whether you agree or disagree with him, McCarthy is a historian. Him being labeled a denialist by some does not mean he is one - that is their opinion on him. If not enough historians have worked on this issue, then of course McCarthy will need to be used.
  • This is your view on scope again. How about you offer 'non-partisan' sources then?
  • Separate tag and really vague explanation from you here.
Like Akocsg said, you are the one denying the articles neutrality based on your own opinions. --Junk2711 (talk) 23:00, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
@Junk2711:, read the following discussion in full: [1]. In that discussion many editors brought up a whole host of academic sources which are strong and relevant to the article. Make sentences based on those and do correct referencing if you want to make this article academically firm going into the future. You will do a great service to the Wikipedia community if you do instead of wasting precious time like this on the talkpage when it could go into content additions for the article. Best.Resnjari (talk) 23:25, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
The majority?? What majority? Don't make up fictitious "majorities" (off-wiki recruited meatpuppets don't count anyway). Second, though you have been editing here for quite some time, it's not too late to familiarize yourself with WP:DEMOCRACY. Wikipedia is NOT a democracy. We do not decide things by majority (especially fictitious/doctored "majorities" like the one you refer to). My points all stand. The fact that you and several others don't like them does not mean the tag is unwarranted. As for the incredible "there is no requirement to balance every article", well, yes there is absolutely a need to balance every article. It's called NPOV, and it's non-negotiable. Like it or not, there IS a NPOV dispute regarding this article, and the tag stays until it has been resolved. Khirurg (talk) 00:30, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
One single user inserted this tag exactly because of not liking it. If there is unbalance and POV, you have to proof it, and point out which part is causing the perceived unbalance in the first place, not the other way around.Akocsg (talk) 22:46, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
Junk2711 the tag does not say the page is not neutral, it says there is a neutrality dispute. As you can clearly see from everything Khirurg says there is clearly a neutrality dispute, and I am quite certain there are others who agree with him. As Resnjari noted, you have much better things to do in your life than argue about a tag at the top of this page. A lot of Turkish topics are undercovered; if you want to help, you should expand those instead.--Calthinus (talk) 01:11, 25 April 2018 (UTC)


First of all @Khirurg: the title of the article IS in fact NPOV, it is NOT in fact POV, because it factually describes what are historically documented and widely acknowledged - in academic, diplomatic, and journalistic sources - persecutions, of Muslims, in the Ottoman empire and general sphere of influence, during the historically known period of Ottoman contraction. The inclusion of the term "persecution" to describe persecutions is fairly non controversial, and can be seen in articles like:
'Persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire'
Here we have an almost identical naming formula, "persecution" of "religious group" (here Christians instead of Muslims) in "Name of Civilization and Period" (Here being Rome in its Imperial phase, where Roman Empire is conventionally used not just to describe a geo-political state in antiquity, but also to describe a distinct phase and period, in contradistinction to 'Roman Republic' for example.
'Persecution of Christians'
Here describing broadly historically acknowledged and documented persecutions of a population, Christians in general.
'Diocletianic Persecution'
To beat a dead horse, I'll just quote the leading paragraph:
"The Diocletianic or Great Persecution was the last and most severe persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire.[1] In 303, the Emperors Diocletian, Maximian, Galerius, and Constantius issued a series of edicts rescinding Christians' legal rights and demanding that they comply with traditional religious practices"
'Persecution of Muslims'
See 'Persecution of Christians' above, to quote from the leading paragraph:
"Persecution of Muslims is the religious persecution which is inflicted upon followers of the Islamic faith. This page lists incidents in both medieval and modern history in which Muslim populations have been targeted for persecution by non-Muslim groups. "
'Persecution of Jews'
To wit; "Persecution of Jews has been a major part of Jewish history, prompting shifting waves of refugees throughout the diaspora communities. "
The point has been made.
On your point "Inclusion of areas beyond the scope of the article (e.g. Circassia)" this is not even cogent. The Ottomans were parties in the Russo-Circassian War (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Circassian_War), and the Ottoman Empire accepted 75% of the total Muslim population that Russia expelled. Thus the persecutions of Circassian most definitely was part of the general 19th century waves of Muslim persecutions that affected Ottoman subjects/civilians, or the Ottoman government. KJS ml343x (talk) 01:36, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
Before making emphatic comments such as First of all.., the point has been made, etc., perhaps you should read the previous discussions that have occurred (see above)? The article name is indeed problematic, and many editors have raised this issue. Khirurg (talk) 01:54, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
Also "Over-reliance on hyper-partisan, genocide denialist sources (e.g. Justin McCarthy)"
I don't think the point here made is not true, the Wikipedia article has 102 different references.
"Glaring POV omissions. Events are presented without any context"
Well, you don't need to contextualize the persecution of Christians by Persecution done by Christians..And the Armenian genocide has almost NO context to this, since the vast majority of it except the Caucasus Campaign and the Greco-Turkish war was done before it...maybe the Campaign during the 1918-1922 which happened in eastern Turkey and Azerbaijan...but it's not even mentioned in the article. Ödegay31 (talk) 14:07, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
Of course there needs to be context. The events in the article are presented as if they occurred out of the blue. Perhaps that suits a particular agenda, but it is not how one builds a neutral encyclopedia. Khirurg (talk) 01:43, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Overuse of quotes, unfounded claims of "genocide"

This series of edits [[2]], which have been edit-warred into the article without consensus [3] [4], are problematic and unsuitable for a number of reasons. First, the use of quotes is entirely unnecessary and undue. Per WP:QUOTEFARM, quotations embody the breezy, emotive style common in fiction and some journalism, which is generally not suited to encyclopedic writing.. Also per WP:QUOTEFARM, quotes are being misused when:

  • a quotation is used without pertinence: it is presented visually on the page but its relevance is not explained anywhere;
  • quotations are used to explain a point that can be paraphrased;
  • the quotations dominate the article or section.
  • Using too many quotations is incompatible with the encyclopedic writing style.
  • Quotations shouldn't replace plain, concise text. Intersperse quotations with original prose that comments on those quotations instead of constructing articles using quotations with little or no original prose.

For these reasons, I am against including quotes from WP:PRIMARY sourced from over 100 years ago. Even worse, the claim of "genocide" in the lede is highly inflammatory, and totally unfounded. There is no scholarly consensus whatsoever that the events described in the article consist anything resembling genocide. Even Justin McCarthy stops short of calling it genocide. Unsourced and unfounded claims of "genocide" have no place in a neutral encyclopedia. Lastly, the edit A British Officer noted that before any turkish resistance was formed the Greek army started their oppresion by burning villages, killing of turks,rape and killing of women. is written in a highly inflammatory POV tone unsuitable for an encyclopedia (let alone ungrammatical). Frankly, these edits carry a whiff of WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Khirurg (talk) 05:05, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Khirurg, you made some valid points here. I shall add that the international community and the International Association of Genocide Scholars do not regard it as such, either. Wikipedia, as the world's encyclopedia, ought to reflect carefully the world's contemporary academic consensus on this rather than take isolated WP:PRIMARY sources and quotes from 100 years ago and misrepresent them as indisputable facts. Serious claims such as this will require strong and substantial sources. The edits have been reverted: [5]. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 09:59, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
Some of the events were genocidal.Genocide studies like Adam Jones, Umit Ungör call it genocide. Justin McCarthy is irrelevant to this topic though.... Ödegay31 (talk) 10:01, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
If "some of the events were genocidal", then this will have to be clarified accordingly and with the necessary sources provided instead of placing the word "genocide" on the lede as describing the whole case as being a genocide. Note that primary sources by themselves are generally avoided; Wikipedia reflects mainly on independent academic scholarship on the matter, not just isolated primary sources. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 10:06, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
"The Turks of Greece left few traces. They disappeared suddenly and finally.." "The orgy of genocide in the Peleponnes stopped when there were no more Turks to kill"....
-> St. Clair, William (1972). That Greece Might Still be Free: The Philhellenes in the War of Independence. p. 12. Ödegay31 (talk) 10:41, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
In the page you pointed, the source specifically says: Atrocity was answered by atrocity as Greeks and Turks struck mercilessly at their defenceless neighbours. The orgy of genocide exhausted itself in the Peloponnese only when there were no more Turks lo kill. The "orgy of genocide" which the author uses to describes the killings, applies to both sides, and describes the lack of respect for civilian life and the retaliatory nature of the massacres that both sides in the war have shown. In Wikipedia, the article Massacres during the Greek War of Independence was created where the full picture of the war is provided to the readers: The war was characterized by a lack of respect for civilian life, and prisoners of war on both sides of the conflict. Massacres of Greeks took place especially in Ionia, Crete, Constantinople, Macedonia and the Aegean islands. Turkish, Albanian, Greeks, and Jewish populations, who were identified with the Ottomans inhabiting the Peloponnese, suffered massacres, particularly where Greek forces were dominant. Settled Greek communities in the Aegean Sea, Crete, Central and Southern Greece were wiped out, and settled Turkish, Albanian, Greeks, and smaller Jewish communities in the Peloponnese were destroyed.. The source you provided may in no way be used to misrepresent here in Wikipedia the massacres by both sides as meaning that it constituted a genocide against a particular group specifically. To use the author's choice of words this way, as is the case of your additions to the article, constitutes one-sided POV because it frames out the Muslim casualties in the war and ignores everything else that happened in that war, just to prove a point not supported by the international academic community. Like I said, you will need strong and substantial sources to prove that the massacres (which occurred for all sides of the war of independence) are in fact an organized genocide against the Muslims specifically. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 11:28, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
"important advances in the understanding of events central to the genocide studies field — such as the process of Ottoman imperial dissolution, reciprocal genocidal killing (during the "Unweaving" in the Balkans) and complex international jockeying that factored into the massive anti-Christian slaughters in Anatolia in 1915"
"The human toll of this Great "Unweaving" from Greece's independence war in the early 19th century to the Balkan war was enourmous.... Hundread Thousands of Ottoman Muslims were killed in the secessionist drive.. Hundread of thousands were more expelled as refugees.... "
" in periods of severe political crisis, genocides can be reciprocal (pp.135-6), but Travis’ chapter also omits the expulsion and massacre of Muslims in the Balkans during the twin wars of 1912-1913, and the Greek massacres against Turks during their military occupation of Anatolia"
As I said Adam Jones "Genocide:A Comprehensive Indroduction" calls it as such. Umit Ungör, also agrees with him and calls it as such and has published an article in the "International Association of Genocide Scholar". There is a newly released book about those events which calls it explicity as genocide. I'll add them later on as source.
Also about the "constitutes one-sided POV because it frames out the Muslim casualties in the war and ignores everything else that happened in that war," the same could be said about the Greek genocide, since the Balkan wars the violence was reciprocal. Heck even in that page mentions it as such. Look here
Also Williams calls the events that led to the extermination of the Turks in the newly Hellenic Republic as genocide and it is footnoted as such in the page 407 and 414.
Jones, Adam. Genocide:A Comprehensive Introduction. p. 65.
Jones, Adam. Genocide:A Comprehensive Introduction. p. 152.
Ungör, Umit. Genocide Studies and Prevention, Issue 8.3 (2014) (PDF). International Association of Genocide Scholar. p. 102.
Ödegay31 (talk) 10:41, 23 February 2021 (UTC) Ödegay31 (talk) 14:03, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
First of all, to make clear: you said "some of the events were genocidal" and one of the sources you provided is about the Greek War of Independence. So I assumed it is the event you wanted to refer to it as the "Genocide" on the lede per WP:LEDE. However, like I explained above, there is no academic consensus to describe the Greek War of Independence as a genocide. To claim so, is a very big move which I am afraid will require very strong and substantial sources and is a view adhered by the majority of the academic scholars worldwide. But isn't the case here. I shall note however, that the present article is already describing killings that occurred by both sides in the Greek War of Independence as genocidal: [[6]] (albeit here only the Muslim side - which is the focus of this article anyways - is mentioned as the victim of genocidal progress, the other side which too suffered being omitted from any mention here, unlike in Massacres during the Greek War of Independence which is more balanced since it mentions both sides). And that's as much as it can get without strong sources and an academic consensus.
Still, I am trying to figure out which events in your "some of the events were genocidal" quote are the genocidal ones listed in the article, which would justify the mention of "genocides" on the article's lede (as in that edit of yours which was reverted). I read in your latest reply now, I see that you are referring (and provided sources) about a much wider range of events which took place at different time periods, including the Balkan Wars and the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire which occurred much later than the Greek War of Independence - about 100 years or so. The sources do appear to mention the word genocide either in quotes or footnotes, but again I fail to understand which ones of the events particularly you refer as being the genocidal events you spoke about. Can you become more specific? Please remember that we gotta be careful and descriptive here, because the article covers a very wide range of events of different time periods, from 1600s to 1900s - and if any of them, be it the Greek War of Independence, the Russian War, the Balkan Campaign, the French war, the Serbian war, the Croatian war, etc, etc, have to be summarized as genocide in the article's lede per WP:LEAD, then you gotta 1) clarify which ones you are talking about as being the genocides, prove strong evidence that these were genocidal events, and 3) also present evidence that the int. community regards them as such. Wikipedia reflects on the international scholarly community's views, not what individual scholars may write about them. Only then we can tell that indeed the present article also lists genocides and the lede indeed will be in need for a update to reflect on it accordingly (per WP:LEAD). Sorry if my response here is lacking, as I myself am feeling abit confused with which events are the genocides you are talking about. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 16:57, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
Some were ethnic cleansing( he expulsion of the Albanians from Nish). Some were genocidal acts (General Liakhov ordering to kill every muslim and destory every mosque during the Caucasus Campaign for example).This article is summarisation of the massacres,expulsion and ethnic cleansing that happened during the dissolution/contraction of the Ottoman Empire. Some of the events were genocidal as you can see from the extermination of the Peleponesse Turk. So it's "genocide or ethnic cleansing"Ödegay31 (talk) 17:27, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
Adam Jones does not refer specifically to that the Muslims of the Ottoman Empire underwent as "genocide". The "genocide of the last half millenium" he refers to is the entire set of genocidal events perpetrated all over the world (many of them in fact perpetrated by Turks, e.g. the Armenian Genocide, Assyrian Genocide, Greek Genocide). This is a misuse of a source to make a claim not actually backed by the source. Khirurg (talk) 17:48, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
"important advances in the understanding of events central to the genocide studies field — such as the process of Ottoman imperial dissolution, reciprocal genocidal killing (during the "Unweaving" in the Balkans) and complex international jockeying that factored into the massive anti-Christian slaughters in Anatolia in 1915"
He mentions that genocidal killing during the "Unweaving" in the Balkans. He later says "The human toll of this Great "Unweaving" from Greece's independence war in the early 19th century to the Balkan war was enourmous.... Hundread Thousands of Ottoman Muslims were killed in the secessionist drive.. Hundread of thousands were more expelled as refugees....
he quotes that upto WW1 majority of the victims during the dissolution were muslims, he says that the term "Unweaving" is the turkish term for the atrocities and expulsions towards muslims. He explicity mentions it.
Don't know if you even read it. Anyway I'll have another source for later on. Ödegay31 (talk) 18:25, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
Anyway I see you wanted to delete this article years ago. Seems like you don't like any of the content but still watching the page every day since years :/. More sources to come there are out there :/ Ödegay31 (talk) 18:39, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
Did you notice the part where he says "reciprocal genocidal killing"? A big problem with the article is that it portrays the events without any context or background. The killings during the 1919-1922 are portrayed as coming out of the blue, as are most of the events in the article. Doubtless some people prefer it that way, but it's no way to write an encyclopedia. Khirurg (talk) 19:34, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, I'll add later better detailed sources about it(when I finish the book I read). Don't mind if you remove it now....but what has 1919-1922( I think you refer to the Greco-Turkish war?) to do with it... As I mentioned it refers to Pre-WW1 expulsion. For example Many Turks and Albanians were massacred during the Balkan wars, their villages burned down to ground by Greeks and Serbians...tby 1913 200k people were living in tents in Selanik vilayet in 1913...you don't contextualize the expulsion of the Greeks in the aegean through this in the other wikipedia sites about Greek genocide victim site...Since in that period all the massacres, expulsion, deportation, forced work were done by both sides, if you read up enough literature about this topic you would know by now... you seeem to want to ignore the other part of it.... Ödegay31 (talk) 19:43, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Ödegay31, AFAIK, the only relevant event that is widely known as a case of genocide is the Circassian genocide. The article should specify it, as currently it makes it look like all events described in the article were genocide. Hey @Calthinus: you might have sth to say here. Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:23, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
    The Ottoman Empire gave up the territory to the Russians but the Circassians didn't saw it as such and fought against the Russians for decades. On a side note it's "ethnic cleansing or genocide", someone earlier on this talk page said "ethnic cleansing w/r to the deportations, and genocide w/r to massacres, based on the language in Max Planck describing the deportation of Armenians as ethnic cleansing — once the intent argument is accepted, the casualties don't need to be high for a genocide conviction" Ödegay31 (talk) 18:51, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
    On a sidenote this site for example considers the Hamidian and Chios massacre as genocide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history_(before_World_War_I), and theres no objection of you for that on that page....Khirurg, it seems like an issue for you when the other side gets mentioned... Ödegay31 (talk) 20:21, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
  • On the quotes, I agree with this edit by SilentResident. Quotes may be relevant and helpful, but what do they add here? On top of that, they are apparently the words of a US official, who may or may not have been an authority and who may or may not have had a good overview--we don't know. The source is primary (US government records), with no benefit of editorial oversight. I may add that the problem of "the observer on the spot" is well-recognized and for that reason we should, in historic events, not rely on eyewitness testimony and not give it too much weight. (Look at John M. Bacon, where the paper reported he got killed in battle, or the NYT report on the sinking of the SS Sirio (see note 4), which got facts wrong and managed to get in a few racist stabs. Drmies (talk) 20:42, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
Agree with this entirely. --Calthinus (talk) 06:44, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Ktrimi991, what happened to Turks, Bosniaks and Muslim Albanians/Bulgarians/etc was bad, but you cannot lump it with what happened in the 1860s Caucasus to Circassians. The latter is given a separate and different treatment in genocide studies. I also think it's a misguided idea/approach to present things as "reciprocal". There were certainly episodes of tit-for-tat killings here and there pre-1910 (by ethnonationalist groups and political entities that is, not between "nations"), but you cannot compare anything on the 'other' side to the Armenian Genocide -- and further, one has to take care to prevent the text from being interpreted that way. --Calthinus (talk) 06:39, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Calthinus, I agree here about Circasians and the Armenian Genocide. Drmies, thanks. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 06:47, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

 Comment: I just had to revert the editor Ödegay31 from listing the Tripolitsa Massacre to the list of Genocides in history (before World War I). Historical revisionist attempts such as baptizing massacres as genocides and adding them to the Wikipedia's list of Genocides without providing strong sources to support such an edit, without consulting with other editors, nor reflecting on the international scholarly community, etc, simply is not an improvement, and certainly not how Wikipedia works. I just reverted the editor's contentious edits [7]. It came to my notice that this coincides with various state-controlled or state-sponsored publications in Turkey [8], which focus on the Tripolitsa Massacre and other massacres by distorting them events to promote the nationalist Turkish government's revisionist narrative that they constituted a genocide. This from the same government which denies that the Armenian Genocide ever happened. The articles in Wikipedia will have to be protected from historical revisionist attempts such as this by Ödegay31 and any debates must be careful as to avoid direct or indirect WP:COIs. IMO, political agendas must be kept away from sensitive topics such as genocides. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 16:47, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

The article has the Chios massacre and Batak massacre, Hamidian massacre as genocide ??? Did you also remove those parts? Either remove them all, or leave that also up. " Is there a international scholarly community for that? And it has nothing to do with this page.What has the turkish goverment to do with this? Ödegay31 (talk) 17:05, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
The article is titled Genocides in history (before World War I). Responding to a mistake with a mistake isn't helpful. If you spotted a massacre listed as genocide, then correct it. Update: I removed the Batak massacre myself [9]. However, using CTRL+F didn't land me to any "Chios massacre" being listed in the Genocides list. Can you be more specific? --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 17:47, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
Many scholar consider the Hamidian massacres the first step of the Armenian genocide, so of course it should be included in that article. But that is a separate discussion. Khirurg (talk) 01:47, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
Yes, agree with you, Khirurg. Thanks for reverting Ödegay31's disruptive attempt to remove the Armenian Genocide from the list of Genocides. The editor appeared unable to be reasoned with and the Admins blocked them for 72-hours. [10]. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 09:14, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Wikivoice

The label of "genocidal process" (regarding Muslims -- or just non-Christians -- in the Pelopponese) is the view of St Clair. I've attributed it to him. We shouldn't state such views in Wikivoice (i.e. without attribution) unless the scholarly consensus has substantially shifted on that matter; as far as I know, it has not. --Calthinus (talk) 22:51, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. St. Clair is moreover a little long in the tooth (1972), not sure if he should be used at all for something like that. Khirurg (talk) 01:40, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
Thanks, Calthinus. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 09:16, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
St Clair should probably be juxtaposed with other views on the matter. Unweaving and the slow "legitimization" of ethnic cleansing as a process has certainly been discussed in scholarship, but my read is that St Clair is not representative.--Calthinus (talk) 17:49, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
Personally, I would never add St. Clair without adding the other views as well for wp:neutrality reasons. However I myself refrained from touching this sourced information yet since I haven't checked the history log to see who/why added it in the first place, and it appears to legitimately relate to the Persecution the present article is about. Do you guys have any sources regarding these other views on the matter? I myself don't, hence my lack of contributions on both the present article and the Massacres during the Greek War of Independence article. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 03:51, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
Not on hand at the moment, no. I wouldn't be against removing it for the time being, pending further discussion.--Calthinus (talk) 09:34, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Maintenance of peace in Armenia - Hearings before a subcommittee of the Committee on Foreign Relations, United States Senate

@Kansas Bear: Not only is there no mention of ethnic cleansing on page 13 that was referenced, there is no mention of M. H. Gulesian (not Gulerian) being either an Armenian nationalist or a veteran of the Balkan Wars in service to Bulgaria. M. H. Gulesian was an Armenian-American financier, who emigrated to the U.S. 35 years before this hearing took place. Demetrios1993 (talk) 13:38, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Considering user:Atabegli has edited for two days and is using complex references in their edits, it is quite clear Atabegli is not a new user. It would probably be wise to check the sources as to verify what they say and ensure no original research. --Kansas Bear (talk) 16:33, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

He says that no Turk can live in a Christian State and that Turks would migrate out of Armenia - And gives the mass exodus of muslims in the Caucasus and Balkans during the Russo-Turkish and Balkan wars that happened in the last decades..He gives that as an example for Armenia...But I guess it doesn't belong in the article since it's an orginal research. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.206.159.195 (talk) 13:11, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Nothing on page 13 supports;
  • "...gave as example the ethnic cleansing done in the Balkan and Russo-Turkish wars..."
Which makes that sentence, original research. --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:09, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
Agree. Also, probably doesn't need to be said, but I'm not thrilled with the idea of relying on [McCarthy]. --Calthinus (talk) 15:20, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Circassians

Technically the circassia was not apart of the Ottoman Empire so I don’t think they should be talked about here 2A02:C7C:507D:0:A875:1CD2:F276:8F66 (talk) 21:07, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Claims of "genocide"

The claim that these events constituted "Genocide" that is being aggressively being pushed by some accounts is actually unsourced. These events are far too disparate and this is why they are not described as "genocide" in the literature. The source that is being used to add "genocide" to the infobox [11] is actually misused, as the author does not describe the events of the article as genocide. Rather, when Adam Jones is referring to the Incorporating a global-comparative perspective on the genocide of the last half-millenium has enabled important advances in the understanding of events central to the genocide studies field, he is referring to the various genocides of the past 500 years, not to a specific genocide, and certainly not the events described in this article. Khirurg (talk) 04:32, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

I don’t really understand what you’re trying to say here, I think the source I used makes it very clear what he was referring to, that is, although he covered a wide range of persecution of Ottoman Muslims as genocide, the 1912-13 Balkan War era was most definitely included in it. I’m almost certain there are a couple other sources that describe the events as genocide, which I will do my best to locate if you just give me some more time. If not though, I stand corrected and we can revert it to “mass murder”/“massacre” in the info box rather than genocide SamuelLion1877 (talk) 05:17, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
The Circassian genocide is within the scope of this article, therefore genocide did occur during this period. Yung Doohickey (talk) 20:35, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
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